I think the argument for shortening the time is to make the streetcar more desirable for uptown-downtown commuting (not just in the typical going to work sense). Also, there likely isn't much development potential on Vine Street Hill because of the challenging topography and large park on the eastern side.

John do you think council will vote to apply for the tiger grants for phase 2? Can cranley veto if they don't have 6 votes? Isn't the deadline coming up to apply?

 

From what I hear, there is no City Council consensus to put up the match that the Feds will want to see to consider Cincinnati's application seriously.

 

And the truth is, we're not ready to start building to Uptown. There is no champion, the large institutions there have not come to the table, and the route needs a lot of work. To me, it seems like the only thing Uptown cares about right now is the new I-71 interchange -- perhaps a bit of over-generalizing there.

 

The city should apply to the Feds now for a planning grant, build stakeholder consensus and apply for construction money when it has perfected a plan. We're a long way from that today.

John do you think council will vote to apply for the tiger grants for phase 2? Can cranley veto if they don't have 6 votes? Isn't the deadline coming up to apply?

 

From what I hear, there is no City Council consensus to put up the match that the Feds will want to see to consider Cincinnati's application seriously.

 

And the truth is, we're not ready to start building to Uptown. There is no champion, the large institutions there have not come to the table, and the route needs a lot of work. To me, it seems like the only thing Uptown cares about right now is the new I-71 interchange -- perhaps a bit of over-generalizing there.

 

The city should apply to the Feds now for a planning grant, build stakeholder consensus and apply for construction money when it has perfected a plan. We're a long way from that today.

The last streetcar meeting I watched, Murray seemed open to getting funding for exploration & planning for a phase 2

or 1B

or pre-2 or whatever.

Per this Business Courier article yesterday on the Brent Spence replacement:

 

U.S. Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx was in town Monday to visit the Siemens facility in Norwood, which is building parts for state-of-the-art Amtrak trains and he addressed the Cincinnati streetcar, saying the city’s investment will pay off, but dodged a question as to whether future phases should be built.

 

"Cincinnati has a bold vision for transportation,” Foxx said. "And what we’ve seen in other parts of the country with streetcars is when they’re put in place, they attract dense development, new businesses, new opportunity for communities and in many cases bring revitalization to areas that have historically been underserved."

 

 

Doesn't building the streetcar through the middle of the forest essentially remove it's potential for development/redevelopment? I thought the whole argument for it making so many turns in the initial downtown/otr loop was that it was more of an economic development project than a transportation project.  Following that logic, why are we no so concerned with travel times as opposed to trying to redevelop and revitalize the Vine Street hill?

 

Streetcar stops are what drive redevelopment.  If you have a long stretch where you can't have a stop (like on Vine Street due to the long hill), no redevelopment occurs because it's as if the streetcar doesn't run through at all.  Since there wouldn't have been a stop on Vine Street hill anyway, it makes sense to pursue a route that is a cheaper and faster connection to uptown.

Seems to me having one stop on the hill -- at the Conklin steps --  is a fantastic idea, and maximizes the walkshed (by including an extra chunk at the top of the steps) while minimizing time delays. I like this new plan much better than the previous Vine alternatives. It's coming together to make a lot of functional sense without breaking the bank.

 

And --BONUS -- a set of steps gets revitalized and reopened. Hopefully that strip on Vine w/ a couple crappy bodegas can get a little TOD love and become useful for those currently in the area and those reconnected by the steps. Just the fact that there actually are a couple stores there adds a bit of credibility/viability to having a stop in that location, which simply doesn't exist for the majority of the hill.

 

^So the maximum grade that the streetcar can run is 8%, or whatever it is. What is the maximum grade for a streetcar stop? Is there a maximum?

Because the CAF cars will meet the stop perfectly at each door - they actually continuously calculated the weight on the vehicle and adjust their suspensions such that they are always 14" above the street, which is the curb level at the stops - the stops needs to be on flat land.

 

Is there even one flat area on Vine Street? Anywhere?

If there's potential to run the line up the Van Leer right of way to Polk/Conklin, the lateral jog back to Vine St at Polk, or across that lot immediately North at a diagonal would be a perfectly horizontal spot to add a stop halfway up the hill.  It would activate that little business district, make the Conklin steps purposeful again, it's close enough to Thill to be accessible from that neighborhood, and it's a stop for Inwood Park.  Provided the engineering works, that could be a HUGE improvement over the current plan.

One thing we looked at was turning the streetcar east across Vine @ Thill and into a tunnel where the retaining wall is at the east end of Thill. That tunnel would travel a short distance under a peninsula of Inwood Park to the large area that's been cleared north of Christ Hospital and on to Auburn to Euclid to Corry to Jefferson.

 

However, that's a grade change of 9% or so from Vine to Auburn, probably too much to negotiate.

 

But it would be great to bring Christ and Mt. Auburn into this.

What would be the "perfect" connection to uptown, if costs weren't a factor?

What would be the "perfect" connection to uptown, if costs weren't a factor?

 

A light-rail-ready tunnel, I'd imagine...

What would be the "perfect" connection to uptown, if costs weren't a factor?

 

A light-rail-ready tunnel, I'd imagine...

 

We live in a city of hills and valleys, so we're bound to have some tunnels and bridges. I don't think you get car-competitive rail to Uptown without a tunnel.

Yet another business moving to Cincinnati and citing the proximity to the streetcar line.  Anyone keeping tally? Cranley cannot keep denying these facts

 

http://www.urbancincy.com/2014/04/pi-pizzeria-to-open-downtown-in-at580/

Yet another business moving to Cincinnati and citing the proximity to the streetcar line.  Anyone keeping tally? Cranley cannot keep denying these facts

 

http://www.urbancincy.com/2014/04/pi-pizzeria-to-open-downtown-in-at580/

 

Not only did they choose their location based on the streetcar route, they "waited out the streetcar debate before committing to a Cincinnati location." In other words, if the streetcar was cancelled, they likely would not be opening a Cincinnati location. All of their other locations are located near major rail transit lines.

Updates:

 

 

 

wait - the curves won't be banked 45 degrees?

Central Parkway island at Race Street:

Curve from Elm Street to Henry Street by Rhinegeist:

 

 

 

Streetcar stop at Elm and Liberty is looking good. There is a ramp at each end that makes it feel like an extension of the sidewalk, and two sets of stairs at either side of where the shelter will be:

 

 

 

 

Chunk of Central Parkway median being removed for a streetcar stop:

 

Crews are also installing new utility poles along along Race. All of the overhead power lines will be higher so that they do not conflict with the streetcar's OCS (overhead contact system). You can see a new and an old one here:

 

I lived on Ohio Ave. back in the 70's, so I understand all the geography of OTR, but I've been in Dayton now for quite a while so I'm not following the Cinti. politics that much any more.  Anyway, I was just in Dayton's "Toxic Brew" microbrewery, and a guy from Rhinegeist came in.  I think he was on-the-clock working, because he didn't really want to hang out or drink there, he was promoting his product.  Anyway, when I started asking him about his location, parking, hours, menu etc. it became very apparent he was proud of their location on the streetcar...like it was one of his marketing talking points.  So, just wondering...was Rhinegeist another locational / investment decision that was made at least partly on the basis of the streetcar?  (Sorry if this has been posted about before...don't know how to go back and search through umpteen hundreds of past posts.)

 

I lived on Ohio Ave. back in the 70's, so I understand all the geography of OTR, but I've been in Dayton now for quite a while so I'm not following the Cinti. politics that much any more.  Anyway, I was just in Dayton's "Toxic Brew" microbrewery, and a guy from Rhinegeist came in.  I think he was on-the-clock working, because he didn't really want to hang out or drink there, he was promoting his product.  Anyway, when I started asking him about his location, parking, hours, menu etc. it became very apparent he was proud of their location on the streetcar...like it was one of his marketing talking points.  So, just wondering...was Rhinegeist another locational / investment decision that was made at least partly on the basis of the streetcar?  (Sorry if this has been posted about before...don't know how to go back and search through umpteen hundreds of past posts.)

 

Definitely. They just opened last year, and they hosted many parties for streetcar supporters, including the one in December just after the final vote to continue with construction.

 

Seem kinda weird to you for him to go advertising his product at another brewery?

I lived on Ohio Ave. back in the 70's, so I understand all the geography of OTR, but I've been in Dayton now for quite a while so I'm not following the Cinti. politics that much any more.  Anyway, I was just in Dayton's "Toxic Brew" microbrewery, and a guy from Rhinegeist came in.  I think he was on-the-clock working, because he didn't really want to hang out or drink there, he was promoting his product.  Anyway, when I started asking him about his location, parking, hours, menu etc. it became very apparent he was proud of their location on the streetcar...like it was one of his marketing talking points.  So, just wondering...was Rhinegeist another locational / investment decision that was made at least partly on the basis of the streetcar?  (Sorry if this has been posted about before...don't know how to go back and search through umpteen hundreds of past posts.)

 

 

Rhinegeist's owners have been vocally supportive of the streetcar. It is an incredible coincidence that Rhinegeist is (1.) located at the northern end of the Phase 1A streetcar route, and (2.) has become a big attraction for people who would not normally visit OTR. On the weekend, Rhinegeist is packed with hundreds of people. Once the streetcars start rolling by in 2016, I think it's going to click in a lot of people's minds, "Oh, I can just get on the streetcar and go down to The Banks or Fountain Square."

 

Seem kinda weird to you for him to go advertising his product at another brewery?

 

I thought that too, but ya' know what I noticed...these new microbrewers seem to have more of a cooperative mindset rather than cut throat competition.  Cincinnati microbrews are probably not in competition with Dayton's,  and they have all mutually identified a hugely expanding market so it's like "we're all in this together...what can we all do in our mutual best interests?"  And just to keep on topic, we can all do things like supporting the streetcar.

 

 

Seem kinda weird to you for him to go advertising his product at another brewery?

 

I thought that too, but ya' know what I noticed...these new microbrewers seem to have more of a cooperative mindset rather than cut throat competition.  Cincinnati microbrews are probably not in competition with Dayton's,  and they have all mutually identified a hugely expanding market so it's like "we're all in this together...what can we all do in our mutual best interests?"  And just to keep on topic, we can all do things like supporting the streetcar.

 

I agree. Almost every microbrewer I've met has been very supportive of other microbreweres. I think it's a "us v. Budweiser" mentality.

Crews are also installing new utility poles along along Race. All of the overhead power lines will be higher so that they do not conflict with the streetcar's OCS (overhead contact system). You can see a new and an old one here:

 

 

What? They aren't burying the power lines? With all of the utility work going on - you'd think that would happen now.

South of Central Parkway, everything is already buried.  So is Race Street and Vine up to Liberty.  It would have been great to bury the electric in the northern stretches, but ...$$$$...

What? They aren't burying the power lines? With all of the utility work going on - you'd think that would happen now.

 

Burying all of the utilities along the entire route would have added major expense to the project. Also, we are lucky that most of the utilities are still overhead in OTR, since it allowed the track work to begin immediately. In the CBD, where the utilities are underground, track work can't even begin until this fall when most of the major utility relocation is complete.

South of Central Parkway, everything is already buried.  So is Race Street and Vine up to Liberty.  It would have been great to bury the electric in the northern stretches, but ...$$$$...

 

$$$$ and permission.  You need to get every property owner to sign off before burying utilities.  North of Liberty, there's a patchwork of owners that would've been nearly impossible to contact, let alone get approval from.  Once development takes off NOL and the Brewery District gets involved in a streetscaping overhaul, we'll probably see buried utilities.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't even think we'll be seeing new sidewalks along the streetcar route.  They're just patching the sections they cut with cement (or with previously installed tiles or pavers like around Washington Park.)

South of Central Parkway, everything is already buried.  So is Race Street and Vine up to Liberty.  It would have been great to bury the electric in the northern stretches, but ...$$$$...

 

$$$$ and permission.  You need to get every property owner to sign off before burying utilities.  North of Liberty, there's a patchwork of owners that would've been nearly impossible to contact, let alone get approval from.  Once development takes off NOL and the Brewery District gets involved in a streetscaping overhaul, we'll probably see buried utilities.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't even think we'll be seeing new sidewalks along the streetcar route.  They're just patching the sections they cut with cement (or with previously installed tiles or pavers like around Washington Park.)

 

That appears to be correct. They will be repaving the street from curb to curb, but they are not redoing the sidewalks along the entire route. They will fix what they have torn up, though. For example, they redid the sidewalk at the southeast corner of Elm and Liberty (where they were already working on a streetcar stop) and it looks great.

Curve from Elm Street to Henry Street by Rhinegeist:

 

This used to be hooker central.

It's also where the postman would crash after drinking his lunch at Charlie's.

good times

There is still almost unceasing prostitution on McMicken Ave. between Race St. and Straight St. at all hours of the day and night.  It continued up to MLK until the recent road work turned McMicken into a dead-end.  A driver at Adriatico's told me that a few weeks ago a prostitute got in his car and was waiting for him while he was in Rheingeist delivering a pizza. 

Curve #2... Race Street to Central Parkway:

 

 

It's hard to get good photos of the stops... but the one at Washington Park is looking really nice:

 

 

It would have been great to bury the electric in the northern stretches, but ...$$$$...

 

Streetscape work is expensive. I read that on one of the Denver light rail lines, the streetscape work was 50% of the total project cost, but they got new street trees, street furniture, all new curbs and walks, etc.

 

It goes without saying that the more things that are included in a project, the more expensive it is, but also the nicer it will be. This is important when making comparisons between projects, including between streetcar lines and bus lines.

 

So,  I believe Monday is the deadline for the next round of Federal grants?  Are we submitting for uptown extension?  I have a feeling if we were...it would be a done deal by now, given the tight timeline at this point.

So,  I believe Monday is the deadline for the next round of Federal grants?  Are we submitting for uptown extension?  I have a feeling if we were...it would be a done deal by now, given the tight timeline at this point.

 

Yeah, I think that's a big "Nope."

Cincinnati is neither applying for a planning nor a construction grant for Uptown.

Will the section of track along the Central Parkway median be protected from traffic in any way? Seems like a perfect opportunity to do so since there's no parking lane on the other side of the tracks.

Is the city even trying to get Hamilton county on board?

Will the section of track along the Central Parkway median be protected from traffic in any way? Seems like a perfect opportunity to do so since there's no parking lane on the other side of the tracks.

 

I believe the streetcar lane will be a "transit-only lane" between Vine and Walnut. That will allow the streetcar to make a right turn from the left lane of Central Parkway onto Walnut Street. However I don't believe it will be "protected" from traffic in any way.

maybe Mann can get it rerouted onto the sidewalk....

 

EXCLUSIVE: Streetcar could open in time for a 2016 GOP convention

Cincinnati's streetcar could be open to riders up to two months earlier than expected if the city lands the 2016 Republican National Convention.

 

"It's certainly possible," said John Deatrick, head of the streetcar project. "If all goes well, it could be done quicker than the time we've laid out."

 

The $133 million streetcar currently is scheduled to open on Sept. 15, 2016, but project leaders have started looking at whether they can open it in time for the convention – most likely in July or August.

 

Cont

All in favor of anything that gets it up and running earlier.  Would be great to ride it to work on a day like today...

EXCLUSIVE: Streetcar could open in time for a 2016 GOP convention

Cincinnati's streetcar could be open to riders up to two months earlier than expected if the city lands the 2016 Republican National Convention.

 

"It's certainly possible," said John Deatrick, head of the streetcar project. "If all goes well, it could be done quicker than the time we've laid out."

 

The $133 million streetcar currently is scheduled to open on Sept. 15, 2016, but project leaders have started looking at whether they can open it in time for the convention – most likely in July or August.

 

Cont

 

I was looking at the preliminary schedule that was released in Summer 2013 and noticed that track construction actually appears to be ahead of schedule, despite the month-long pause. If things keep going at this pace, they shouldn't have any problem opening it ahead of schedule.

I was looking at the preliminary schedule that was released in Summer 2013 and noticed that track construction actually appears to be ahead of schedule, despite the month-long pause. If things keep going at this pace, they shouldn't have any problem opening it ahead of schedule.

That's incompetence for you...

I was looking at the preliminary schedule that was released in Summer 2013 and noticed that track construction actually appears to be ahead of schedule, despite the month-long pause. If things keep going at this pace, they shouldn't have any problem opening it ahead of schedule.

That's incompetence for you...

 

I wish ALL projects had leaders this incompetent...  :roll:

More 'controversy'.

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/cincinnati-streetcar-new-concerns-about-substations-taking-parking-spots

 

And when will WCPO just admit they are on Cranley's payroll?

More 'controversy'.

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/cincinnati-streetcar-new-concerns-about-substations-taking-parking-spots

 

And when will WCPO just admit they are on Cranley's payroll?

Lol! That reporters use of "quotes" was ridiculous. And of course, there's no accompanying picture of what these substations may look like.

More 'controversy'.

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/cincinnati-streetcar-new-concerns-about-substations-taking-parking-spots

 

And when will WCPO just admit they are on Cranley's payroll?

Lol! That reporters use of "quotes" was ridiculous. And of course, there's no accompanying picture of what these substations may look like.

 

I was wondering the same thing - what will these substations look like? Are there examples of them on any other modern lines?

Does anybody have a photo of a similarly-sized substation (perhaps from another city)? The article says they'll be 55 feet wide by 12 feet tall (no mention of width). In any case, they do sound quite large.