Huh, that's actually rather interesting. I didn't know about the substations. Do they have them in Portland and other cities? What have other cities done to make them more attractive? (They definitely do sound like a potential eyesore.)

 

Worries about parking are silly, but aesthetic concerns seem realistic. I'd like to see some renderings of what Glaserworks comes up with.

Nothing about this makes sense.  55 feet is only three parallel parking spaces and maybe 6 or 7 perpendicular ones for one thing.  So do they think they'll need two or three of these things?  DC power can travel for miles at traction voltages, and it's not like feeders or substations have to be right on the route itself.  I find it hard to believe there's a need for anything other than a single power source for the entire route to begin with.  Besides, there's all sorts of parking lots and other city-owned vacant lots that could be used for such things instead, on top of space in the garages at The Banks, at the maintenance facility, or even in the subway tunnels. 

It would have been nice if the city could have placed it in the massive parking lot between Main and Walnut. That way, when a building is eventually built on that lot, it could surround the substation and we wouldn't even know it exists. Similar to how subway entrances and ventilation buildings are often built into surrounding buildings, or at least disguised with a fake building facade.

Oh well.... just cancel the whole thing I guess.... What is this latest "controversy" supposed to accomplish?  :roll:

Huh, that's actually rather interesting. I didn't know about the substations. Do they have them in Portland and other cities? What have other cities done to make them more attractive? (They definitely do sound like a potential eyesore.)

 

Worries about parking are silly, but aesthetic concerns seem realistic. I'd like to see some renderings of what Glaserworks comes up with.

 

I've led dozens of streetcar tours to Portland, and I can't recall ever seeing one.

If you do a quick google image search for "streetcar substations" you will see pictures of the substations in Washington DC, Atlanta, and Tuscon.

 

They are absolutely hideous. We definitely need to find a way to hide these.

Oh boy, 12-18 parking spots will now be gone.  What will the city do after this travesty? Which one of the dozens of surface lots or thousands of street spaces along the line will people now choose from?

This PDF from Providence's streetcar, says that the substations can be up to 300 feet from the track, and can be incorporated into adjacent buildings (if the city has property rights), but the WCPO article says Deatrick said the city would have to demolish buildings if we wanted to put the substations out of the right-of-way:

 

http://providencecoreconnector.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Providence-Conceptual-Traction-Power-Supply-Distribution-FINAL-Tech-Rpt-F.pdf

No chance of it being in the car barn???

Nothing about this makes sense.  55 feet is only three parallel parking spaces and maybe 6 or 7 perpendicular ones for one thing.  So do they think they'll need two or three of these things?  DC power can travel for miles at traction voltages, and it's not like feeders or substations have to be right on the route itself.  I find it hard to believe there's a need for anything other than a single power source for the entire route to begin with.

 

Hmmm I don't know, resistance is the big drawback of DC power. If you've ever tried to make a really big Tyco or AFX HO scale slot car track with only one power supply you'll know what I mean. For a more grown-up example, that's why cars need all those relays rather than being able to just run the wires straight through. I bet they do need the substations.

Huh, that's actually rather interesting. I didn't know about the substations. Do they have them in Portland and other cities? What have other cities done to make them more attractive? (They definitely do sound like a potential eyesore.)

 

Worries about parking are silly, but aesthetic concerns seem realistic. I'd like to see some renderings of what Glaserworks comes up with.

 

I've led dozens of streetcar tours to Portland, and I can't recall ever seeing one.

 

I bet they're well-hidden. For the final word, ask one of your contacts in Portland if they do have them and if they do not, try to find out why they don't need them.

If you do a quick google image search for "streetcar substations" you will see pictures of the substations in Washington DC, Atlanta, and Tuscon.

 

They are absolutely hideous. We definitely need to find a way to hide these.

 

Very fugly. Looks like more examples of engineers ruling the roost.

 

Definitely interested in seeing Glaserworks's design solution. But my instinct is to agree with taestell (and jwulsin) that these could be relatively simply hidden in a building. Though we seem to have passed the point where that's economically feasible for the foreseeable future.

According to the early environmental assessment study there are four substations. One in the Findlay Market parking lot, one in the parking lot at Central and Vine, one in the empty lot at 7th and Main, and one on the dead space on the northeast corner of 2nd and Main.

 

They all seem like pretty good spots to put equipment. They aren't any more of an eye sore than a parking lot, and if dressed up even minimally (some brick or other decent finish) they'll look better than an empty parking lot (which is what the spaces they are going to occupy are 75% of the time)

 

* edit: looks like there is a 5th substation at Odeon and Central Parkway next to the existing Duke substation. Also a good, out-of-the-way site.

If you do a quick google image search for "streetcar substations" you will see pictures of the substations in Washington DC, Atlanta, and Tuscon.

 

They are absolutely hideous. We definitely need to find a way to hide these.

 

 

Very fugly. Looks like more examples of engineers ruling the roost.

 

Definitely interested in seeing Glaserworks's design solution. But my instinct is to agree with taestell (and jwulsin) that these could be relatively simply hidden in a building. Though we seem to have passed the point where that's economically feasible for the foreseeable future.

 

Bob Pickford, who used to run Findlay Market, told me that these substations have to be out in the open so truck-based equipment can easily reach them for servicing.

^ Can you do me a favor, when you get a chance, and ask your Portland friends what their solution is?

Here are what the substations looked like on the original NYC subway:

http://forgotten-ny.com/2008/02/one-of-our-substations-is-missing-some-of-nycs-remaining-subway-and-el-power-sources/

Didn't I read on this board that the system will be able to be broken into two loops, one north of Central Parkway and one south, so that only half of the system could be run at a time for maintenance on the other half? If so, I would assume that they need at least two substations.

 

There are many of the historic substations still around. Some of them are housed in nice buildings.

Where exactly on Court Street is this substation being built? Sounds like site work has been done already, so we should be able to get photos. Anybody?

^I think it is being built mid block where the cars park, on the far west side of the block between Walnut and Main.

 

These substations seem like a good project for DAAP students to come up with attractive and inexpensive coverings.

These substations seem like a good project for DAAP students to come up with attractive and inexpensive coverings.

 

I'm going to nip this in the bud and say: please everyone, let's not start another argument like the free public toilet one about using DAAP students.

Where exactly on Court Street is this substation being built? Sounds like site work has been done already, so we should be able to get photos. Anybody?

 

I believe the only site work done to date has been under Walnut St. Here is the view of Court St. from Google Maps:

^I think it is being built mid block where the cars park, on the far west side of the block between Walnut and Main.

 

If it's going to be mid-block, it won't really be visible from either Walnut or Main. I don't see what the big deal is.

Because of the proximity to the Courthouse and the License and Title Bureau and the Hamilton County Building Department, these are some of the most in-demand parking spots downtown.  Tons of people come in to apply for a permit and run back out to their car.  It would be best to keep as much of that diagonal parking as possible IMO.

Shouldn't some of those people be taking the streetcar instead of driving up there!

 

Pull up the area on a map, there is nearly an entire city block of surface lots right there. I don't think the area is going to have a lack of parking anytime soon. And if I understand the placement correctly, the spots that may be lost are the ones furthest away from the doors of any of the buildings anyway, so are going to be the least in demand.

 

I feel like these complaints over losing parking spaces (related to the streetcar, the bike lanes, or whatever the issue is) is much like the police debate. There are those who always will want more and you can never take any away, but I never hear what the number should be. Tell me how many spots we need in an area to meet demand and that these lost spots will result in a number below that, otherwise I am fine sacrificing them. As we all know there are other ways to make more spots available if needed (higher rates, no more free 10 minutes, etc).

 

 

 

Downtown Cincinnati has something like 35,000 parking spaces.  Dozens and dozens of multi-deck parking garages, including the Banks garage which will be among the largest underground parking garages in the world, about 80 surface lots, and maybe 1,000 on-street spaces. 

 

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/04/30/harsh-portland-audit-airs-streetcar-risks/8514225/

 

The Cran Man is back and angrier than ever.  This time talking about a Portland Audit that proves his point that expansion should never happen

LOL.  It gets so annoying hearing talk about operating costs.  I understand the concern by some people but that is because they are ignorant in the first place and don't understand it will bring more tax revenue to cover all those costs and then some.  I feel like John Deatrick will have a good handle on figuring out what is being built since the streetcar moved ahead 100%, compared to what it was before.

 

I think then you can still make an argument to the opposition who says "This would have happened anyways".  That would be a long the lines of, how fast development was moving before the streetcar was moving ahead, vs. the present.  Then, you can add up the tax revenues of all.  Then you can show how much more money the city has made for accelerating development and minimizing parking.

 

I like John Deatrick's comment, "It will blow people away".  Makes me really excited. 

 

 

I walked by Court Street today and talked to the guys from Prus who are doing construction work for the substation. They told me the substation will be located in the median, taking up the first 7 diagonal parking spots, on both sides of the median. I'm not super concerned about the loss of parking, but that sounds like an incredibly large (and potentially hideous) substation. I sure wish the City could've had some foresight to place the substation in one of those surface parking lots. It wasn't clear to me from my conversation with Prus if that meant the trees would also be removed.

 

In any case... I really would like to see something from the City about their plans for these substations. For a structure so large that is being built in the right-of-way, I would expect some rendering to be prepared and shared publicly. I've attached a couple of photos. The first shows a satellite image with 55 feet indicated by the yellow line, which is the expected length of the substation. The second photo is of the Court Street median (just east of Walnut, looking north).

 

 

 

 

Sorry if this is ignorant but could these be buried? (though I'm sure that would cost more)

I was talking to someone in streetcar operations who said that this site was necessary because it was one of the few city owned sites available on that stretch.  I asked about the parking lots, etc.  He said they looked at all of them and this one made the most sense.  Aesthetics were also involved in the conversation.  We'll see.

 

Substations are big and ugly, but they are very easily concealed with a little creativity.  This being the middle of Court Street, I expect them to make it look more structural (like maybe an old market building) or to flashily promote the streetcar (like the Go By Streetcar sign in Portland) but any way you slice it this is an important location in downtown that's worth of the extra attention.  I can't wait to see what Glaserworks comes up with and I REALLY hope they allocated funding to beautify it in the project cost.

 

Yvette simpson told council today that she has gotten numerous emails from business owners along Court Street asking the substation to be moved because it takes away parking.

 

Lets hope this central parkway Tim Haines debacle isnt the start of a new trend

Apparently she brought this up when voting on the Parkway bike path today.

I am sure the businesses will suffer a loss of business with increased foot traffic & more residents.

 

I remember when they laid the pavers in Court Street and dressed it all up. It looks really nice now. I think the intention was to have more space for street vendors on the wide sidewalks. Occasionally I see one, but the "Court Street Market" has been mostly a disappointment.

 

Those parking spaces are in fact very heavily used, because the nature of the county administration building, etc., leads to a lot of "run in and out" type of traffic. Actually, I just drove there yesterday. There were no spaces open, so I parked about 8 blocks away and walked. (Urban Ohioans tend to walk a lot).

 

I'm sure the reason why they didn't decide to place the equipment in a surface parking lot is because the city doesn't own the property.

Yvette simpson told council today that she has gotten numerous emails from business owners along Court Street asking the substation to be moved because it takes away parking.

 

Lets hope this central parkway Tim Haines debacle isnt the start of a new trend

 

These concerns should be readily dismissed – these businesses may lose a few nearby parking spots (that they have a misplaced entitled attitude towards) but they’ll gain hundreds, even thousands of people passing by on the streetcar every day. I’d actually like to know who, specifically, is complaining.

Here's a relevant quote from the streetcar history on my website:

 

The 1910s also saw some abandonments in Kentucky. In 1917 the city of Newport decided to repave Patterson Street with asphalt to make it better for car and truck traffic, and they tore up the streetcar tracks in the process. They told the street railway company to put back their tracks and repave the rest of the road, but they refused, arguing that the tracks and the road were fine before. Newport did not prevail in the ensuing legal battle since they violated the franchise agreement, and Patterson Street lost transit service until buses were introduced in 1936. There was also complaining among the merchants on Monmouth Street that streetcars were blocking automobile traffic, so they successfully campaigned to have the tracks removed between 5th and 11th Streets and to divert the remaining service to existing tracks on York, just one block away. The store owners would come to regret that decision as they lost much more foot traffic than they gained from automobiles.

 

http://www.jjakucyk.com/transit/streetcarinfo.html

'Seeds of Development sprouting North of Liberty'

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/05/06/north-liberty-development/8791783/

 

For more than a decade, developers have plowed hundreds of millions of dollars into the neighborhood south of Liberty Street bordering Downtown. Now, fortunes may be starting to turn north, drawn by the streetcar's development, a growing brewery district and rising real estate costs south of Liberty.

 

 

 

Adjacent to the brewery, the city is building its streetcar maintenance facility. Deatrick, the streetcar director, said the project's impact is already being felt. No longer do any tax-delinquent properties line the route, he said.

 

 

Zero tax delinquent properties!?!  That's fantastic!  Hopefully development moves quickly. This building won't make it another year. Bricks started falling two weeks ago:

 

'Seeds of Development sprouting North of Liberty'

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/05/06/north-liberty-development/8791783/

 

For more than a decade, developers have plowed hundreds of millions of dollars into the neighborhood south of Liberty Street bordering Downtown. Now, fortunes may be starting to turn north, drawn by the streetcar's development, a growing brewery district and rising real estate costs south of Liberty.

 

 

 

Adjacent to the brewery, the city is building its streetcar maintenance facility. Deatrick, the streetcar director, said the project's impact is already being felt. No longer do any tax-delinquent properties line the route, he said.

 

 

 

And on the Enquirer's map, they get the route wrong. Something like seven years into this, they are still making mistakes on the most basic aspects of the streetcar.

Zero tax delinquent properties!?!  That's fantastic!  Hopefully development moves quickly. This building won't make it another year. Bricks started falling two weeks ago:

 

 

Which building is this exactly? Address?

 

EDIT: never mind- 1733 Vine street. Bought by 3CDC in December of 2012

Metro wants you to brand the Cincinnati streetcar

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

Metro is looking for a company to brand what it calls “the hottest new product in Cincinnati” – the Cincinnati streetcar.

 

The region’s largest public transit agency requested proposals to create an identity for the $133 million streetcar project. The costs for branding it will be paid by federal funds, not Metro’s operating budget.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/05/13/metro-wants-you-to-brand-the-cincinnati-streetcar.html

just did an image search for boondoggle & found pretty much nothing so CO    probably won't be  a finalist.

Hopefully what they choose will involve skulls.

Did I miss something about the streetcar being run by Metro?

The grant recipient is actually SORTA.  The City & they have an agreement from a few years ago to operate the streetcar.

Ummmm Channel 12 just sold the streetcar hardcore. Interviewed Pete Witte, talked about the western hills viaduct, explained how the tracks are light rail compatible, and brought up the future possibility of LRT going to the airport.

 

Surreal.

Ummmm Channel 12 just sold the streetcar hardcore. Interviewed Pete Witte, talked about the western hills viaduct, explained how the tracks are light rail compatible, and brought up the future possibility of LRT going to the airport.

 

Surreal.

 

A must watch!

 

 

http://local12.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/could-streetcar-expand-price-hill-11670.shtml

Cranley getting elected certainly flipped a switch with the local media regarding transit issues.

 

But now we're seeing Republicans touting the streetcar and hoping it will bring the GOP convention. And we have conservative Westsiders trying to get a piece of the action.

 

Gotta embrace and cultivate this. Especially since the west side could really use some transit options and TOD.

 

Not mentioned in the video is the fact the subway leads right to the Western Hills Viaduct.

very true (h/t jake's website)

A light rail line in the subway could connect to the streetcar downtown via tunnels at Central Parkway. Going north it could follow the subway path to Northside and also veer west onto a new Western Hills viaduct to the westside.

 

This would not only provide rail access to Northside, Camp Washington, South Fairmont, Westwood and Price Hill but also Brighton and parts of the West End. Finally running a line in the subway removes the stigma of failure from the subway tunnels.

 

I've been told that the Urbos 3 light rail vehicles we are getting for the streetcar can reach speeds of up to 55 mph.

I think it would make sense to have multiple systems.  Streetcar at surface level running local service to downtown, uptown, Walnut Hills, South Fairmount, maybe across the river, etc.  Then use the subway tunnels for more standard light rail alone the freeway corridors reaching further out (continuing the subway East with a station at the casino, then jumping onto I-71).  Then use the RTC for commuter rail along the river to Sayler Park or Lawrenceburg, Milford, and New Richmond. 

 

I'll have to draw up a map later to show what I'm talking about.

No idea why WCPO has these old photos on their home page today... Take a look inside the Cincinnati streetcar