What's the deal on the operating costs story? Can someone break it down better?

I would guess that, as SORTA was asking for cash, they estimated high.

 

Pretty much the way I took it too, didn't want to be overly optimistic though.

 

So basically you could have re-named the article to "Inflation Exists!" and you wouldn't even have to change the copy.

Welcome to the board, Marooned17 ... Are you originally from Prague and now reside in Cincy?

Hi to everybody

 

Welcome to Urban Ohio!

Welcome to the board, Marooned17 ... Are you originally from Prague and now reside in Cincy?

I live in Prague but one of my interests are developing american light rail/streetcar systems. Throught that I got to know about new Cincinnati streetcar system and now I admit that the city became one of my most favourite american cities, thanks to Over-the-Rhine district or great history of your transit system (inclines, double overhead streetcar wires). I actually have a part - time job at Prague Transportation Authority and its extreemly interesting to compare your problems with ours. Have definitely to visit Cincinnati when I'm again in America, but until then I'm grateful for internet sources like this forum, to get new information :-)

That's great! Welcome to the forums. You'll definitely be useful in offering an additional viewpoint. Hopefully one day we can achieve the success of Prague's transit system. At least that's the dream haha.

PG reiterated that GE told the county lawyer that the streetcar was 'integral' decision in them moving downtown...

 

Cue Cranley sad trombone

 

 

Welcome to the board, Marooned17 ... Are you originally from Prague and now reside in Cincy?

I live in Prague but one of my interests are developing american light rail/streetcar systems. Throught that I got to know about new Cincinnati streetcar system and now I admit that the city became one of my most favourite american cities, thanks to Over-the-Rhine district or great history of your transit system (inclines, double overhead streetcar wires). I actually have a part - time job at Prague Transportation Authority and its extreemly interesting to compare your problems with ours. Have definitely to visit Cincinnati when I'm again in America, but until then I'm grateful for internet sources like this forum, to get new information :-)

 

If you are ever visiting Cincinnati, let us know and I am sure people will volunteer to show you around! Welcome to UrbanOhio!

PG basically said that the article was written with the word streetcar to get hits(PARAPHRASED...He said it much more politically savvy but that was the intent).  He said there's nothing new

Marooned17, welcome to UrbanOhio! I've had the pleasure of visiting Prague, and had a great time there. I think it's the most beautiful city I've ever been to (and I've been to many beautiful cities)!

PG basically said that the article was written with the word streetcar to get hits(PARAPHRASED...He said it much more politically savvy but that was the intent).  He said there's nothing new

 

That is exactly right, which is why I refuse to click on those hit-pieces. If enough people follow suit, the Enquirer will stop printing them. When there is an article which people continually come back to for the comment section, that is gold for them. Don't click and, if you want to be proactive, email or Tweet your displeasure to the Enquirer staff.

Just a thought...

 

Streetcar opponents are saying that we need to create a Special Improvement District for OTR to pay for the streetcar operating costs. So, why aren't the streetcar opponents getting out there and putting the SID proposal together?

 

(Answer: because they LOVE to complain about the streetcar's "subsidy," and if we set up a SID, they would not be able to complain about it anymore.)

So did Cranely get SORTA to do this so that he could try and poo-poo the streetcar when and if the streetcar was cited as the reason something located near the line?

 

The information from the Enquirer story came from the CMAQ application. The Business Courier had covered that last week here- http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/06/17/exclusive-sorta-asks-for-federal-funds-to-operate.html?page=all

Personally, I’d rather have my tax dollars pay for something like the streetcar than subsidizing a wealthy company like GE. I’d wager the ROI is much better with the streetcar, it’s just not as simple to see. One can quickly do the math and see that while the city, county, and tax are all subsidizing GE, they’ll still make some money in the end, as opposed to making absolutely nothing if GE located in another state. The streetcar ROI numbers are forecasts, and not the seemingly tangible and quantifiable numbers a corporate subsidy has (even though the entire thing is still based on forecasts for number of employees, salaries, etc.).

 

For some reason the naysayers come out of the woodwork and question or flat out deny the assumptions that the streetcar forecasts make – that it will raise property values, bring in new residents and associated income and sales taxes, and create business opportunities. Yet no one would ever question GE’s promise to live up to their forecasts.

 

Personally, I’d rather have my tax dollars pay for something like the streetcar than subsidizing a wealthy company like GE. I’d wager the ROI is much better with the streetcar, it’s just not as simple to see. One can quickly do the math and see that while the city, county, and tax are all subsidizing GE, they’ll still make some money in the end, as opposed to making absolutely nothing if GE located in another state. The streetcar ROI numbers are forecasts, and not the seemingly tangible and quantifiable numbers a corporate subsidy has (even though the entire thing is still based on forecasts for number of employees, salaries, etc.).

 

For some reason the naysayers come out of the woodwork and question or flat out deny the assumptions that the streetcar forecasts make – that it will raise property values, bring in new residents and associated income and sales taxes, and create business opportunities. Yet no one would ever question GE’s promise to live up to their forecasts.

 

They pick and choose the uc economic studies they like and dislike. For example, uc studies for mlk and ge were shouted to the rooftops by cranley and smitherman. The uc study for the streetcar was naturally not correct and full of flaws as claimed by the same smitherman and cranley

PG reiterated that GE told the county lawyer that the streetcar was 'integral' decision in them moving downtown...

 

If you listen to this segment (beginning at 40:16) of the Scott Sloan Show, Mike McConnell and P.G. take a few calls and first up is none other than COAST's Stephan Louis.

Personally, I’d rather have my tax dollars pay for something like the streetcar than subsidizing a wealthy company like GE. I’d wager the ROI is much better with the streetcar, it’s just not as simple to see. One can quickly do the math and see that while the city, county, and tax are all subsidizing GE, they’ll still make some money in the end, as opposed to making absolutely nothing if GE located in another state. The streetcar ROI numbers are forecasts, and not the seemingly tangible and quantifiable numbers a corporate subsidy has (even though the entire thing is still based on forecasts for number of employees, salaries, etc.).

 

For some reason the naysayers come out of the woodwork and question or flat out deny the assumptions that the streetcar forecasts make – that it will raise property values, bring in new residents and associated income and sales taxes, and create business opportunities. Yet no one would ever question GE’s promise to live up to their forecasts.

 

They pick and choose the uc economic studies they like and dislike. For example, uc studies for mlk and ge were shouted to the rooftops by cranley and smitherman. The uc study for the streetcar was naturally not correct and full of flaws as claimed by the same smitherman and cranley

 

There has never been a UC study of the Cincinnati Streetcar. All UC did was review the 2007 HDR study and conclude that it was done correctly.

PG reiterated that GE told the county lawyer that the streetcar was 'integral' decision in them moving downtown...

 

If you listen to this segment (beginning at 40:16) of the Scott Sloan Show, Mike McConnell and P.G. take a few calls and first up is none other than COAST's Stephan Louis.

 

I see Stephan is still focused on the big picture.

 

Enquirer released yet another hit piece today designed to get clicks...

No mention of streetcar helping bring in ge or the 260k of sorta funds being transferred

Business Courier completely disputes the Enquirer's story

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/06/24/city-cincinnati-streetcar-operating-costs-have-not.html

What's up with this?  Today's Enquirer had a story about the "another" $1million start-up costs.  These costs will be spread over three budget years.  OK, but big deal!!  Where were the cost-concious complainers a few months ago when it was announced that the delay while they "studied the problem" also cost roughly the same amount in added expenses. Hmmmm...  :wtf:

COAST is still whining about the Blue Ash Airport deal and picking on those who gave them a hard time in their desperate attempt to disrupt the Cincinnati streetcar project via Blue Ash:

http://coast-usa.blogspot.com/2014/05/why-did-rick-bryan-do-it.html

 

I was there at the August 2012 meeting where Bryant and others on Blue Ash council -- all Republicans -- more or less shouted Chris Finney out of their city.  I believe it was Bryant who sarcastically called Chris Finney "the greatest attorney in the world" after one hour of anti-Blue Ash council comments by Mary Kuhl, Jeff Cappell, Finney himself, and various Blue Ash upstarts who were mobilized by Finney's month-long build-up to this meeting.  The build-up included the dropping of anonymous literature under the doors of Blue Ash residents and threatening phone calls to Blue Ash council members, most of whom were lawyers themselves.  All of this went completely unreported by The Enquirer or any other local media source other than my article that appeared in UrbanCincy:  http://www.urbancincy.com/2012/08/blue-ash-city-council-spurns-coast-during-airport-vote/

 

COAST is still whining about the Blue Ash Airport deal and picking on those who gave them a hard time in their desperate attempt to disrupt the Cincinnati streetcar project via Blue Ash:

http://coast-usa.blogspot.com/2014/05/why-did-rick-bryan-do-it.html

 

I was there at the August 2012 meeting where Bryant and others on Blue Ash council -- all Republicans -- more or less shouted Chris Finney out of their city.  I believe it was Bryant who sarcastically called Chris Finney "the greatest attorney in the world" after one hour of anti-Blue Ash council comments by Mary Kuhl, Jeff Cappell, Finney himself, and various Blue Ash upstarts who were mobilized by Finney's month-long build-up to this meeting.  The build-up included the dropping of anonymous literature under the doors of Blue Ash residents and threatening phone calls to Blue Ash council members, most of whom were lawyers themselves.  All of this went completely unreported by The Enquirer or any other local media source other than my article that appeared in UrbanCincy:  http://www.urbancincy.com/2012/08/blue-ash-city-council-spurns-coast-during-airport-vote/

 

 

I love their stats! "And the Streetcar was opposed 2-1 in the City and 4-1 in the suburbs" Really?

Smitherman & Winburn voted no on the Streetcar grant from SORTA, even though it potentially lowers the tax dollars the city has to pay for construction.

 

Winburn said "I will vote no on everything that ever has streetcar in it".

Additionally, it's pretty amazing that 12th St from Main to Republic is either torn up to become track, about to be poured, or already finished. 

 

The official end date for the OTR loop is March 2015.  But that includes everything.  That means OCS, Stations, rebuilding of all curbs, sidewalks, etc.  I think all track will be completed by mid fall.

 

One thing that I don't think many people know, is that every intersection the streetcar crosses will be replaced with boom traffic signals instead of the hanging wire ones we currently have in all of OTR.  You can see them already at 14th and Elm, Liberty & Elm, Race & 12th and a few other spots.

 

Also, as mentioned, 14th will become two way from Race to Elm.  This will not reduce parking.  Parking on 14th will remain on the North Side of the street, but it will flip to face west.  Then there will be two driving lanes.  14th between Race & Vine will remain eastbound only.

can someone explain the logic behind not continuing the two-way on 14th all the way to vine?

^ not wide enough.  the right of way drops to only 20 feet.  Meaning you would have to remove all on street parking, forcing even more people into 3CDC's garage as monthly parkers.  Also, with 13th being two way, 15th going west and 12th being two way, I don't see it as a huge problem that it doesn't connect all the way over.

 

15th will likely reopen after 3CDC builds their office building. 

It probably has to do with the width shrinking by one driving lane. Having two way traffic on a small side street that doesn't have the benefit of wide sidewalks could potentially be problematic.

Anybody knows when the streetcar station shelters will be installed

Anybody knows when the streetcar station shelters will be installed

You itching to start waiting?

Anybody knows when the streetcar station shelters will be installed

You itching to start waiting?

 

There's a sh!tty indie film plot in there somewhere.

The specific role is not entirely clear from this article, but apparently UC is working w/ other stakeholders on boosting Short Vine. Some people here seemed to think a streetcar on Short Vine versus Jefferson would be a snub to UC, but I think it's likely UC would be just as supportive of a Short Vine route as a Jefferson route. Here is some evidence UC sees Short Vine as their own, and sees their futures tied together (wise to do IMO).

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/06/27/big-developments-tall-order-short-vine/11471461/

It makes sense. There's a large, and continuously growing population on that side of campus and the streetscaping project will help improve that street quite a bit. I was up there saturday and loved how wide the new sidewalks are. I can't wait for the utility lines to be underground. Nothing improves the look of a street like burying utilities.

 

Replacing those ugly utility lines with streetcar catenary wires would just be icing on the cake. It's the perfect setup for a streetcar. A couple stops at either end and you bring loads of new people to the rehabbed buildings. And increase the value of properties along the line which hopefully results in higher quality new construction than what we've seen so far.

Construction began last night on the diamond track at the corner of 12th and Race. This is the "crossover" point that will allow the OTR loop and CBD loop to operate independently when needed, and is the "most complicated [track] to install along the streetcar's 3.6-mile route." The intersection will be closed for six weeks to allow for this construction.

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/traffic-alerts/closure-12th-race/

It makes sense. There's a large, and continuously growing population on that side of campus and the streetscaping project will help improve that street quite a bit. I was up there saturday and loved how wide the new sidewalks are. I can't wait for the utility lines to be underground. Nothing improves the look of a street like burying utilities.

 

Replacing those ugly utility lines with streetcar catenary wires would just be icing on the cake. It's the perfect setup for a streetcar. A couple stops at either end and you bring loads of new people to the rehabbed buildings. And increase the value of properties along the line which hopefully results in higher quality new construction than what we've seen so far.

 

I've been hearing, not from especially knowledgeable people, that the Vine Street merchants don't want the streetcar on Vine.

The specific role is not entirely clear from this article, but apparently UC is working w/ other stakeholders on boosting Short Vine. Some people here seemed to think a streetcar on Short Vine versus Jefferson would be a snub to UC, but I think it's likely UC would be just as supportive of a Short Vine route as a Jefferson route. Here is some evidence UC sees Short Vine as their own, and sees their futures tied together (wise to do IMO).

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/06/27/big-developments-tall-order-short-vine/11471461/

 

I've come around on the Short Vine route since some of my previous posts, and I would support it especially if there were multiple branches of the Uptown Streetcar, particularly one that serves south and west of campus along Calhoun/McMillan/Clifton Ave.  This would actually end up being pretty close to the original uptown route shown on the original HDR study.  (Page 9 of http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/linkservid/17D4E8BF-EE36-4924-94AAFBB630857475/showMeta/0/ ) (Although the study has it split between Short Vine and Jefferson which I don't think I would like.)

 

It should be interesting to see what the first proposal for the uptown streetcar looks like- if it's just a quick and dirty straight line to the zoo, one that looks similar to the route in the original study, or if it will be a true system that can circulate people among the uptown neighborhoods (taking the place of the shuttle buses mentioned in the Business Courier article about the uptown master plan.)  I suppose some of that depends on Cincinnatians seeing the true value of the streetcar, and some of it depends on what increasingly unreliable sources of funding are available.  Unfortunately, the federal government is completely stagnant to what I believe is a crisis level (although they still can find a few hundred million here and there to shoot over to this or that group overseas,)  and the state government has figured out they can pass the buck on almost everything down to the local level. 

 

Concerning the route, PG Sittenfeld recently led a project to makes the city's open data available for people to sift through.  I wonder if there is anything in there that would be useful in planning a route to maximize ridership/development potential?  http://www.opendatacincy.org/opendata/

So COAST is trying to tie a new sales tax propose for Union Terminal and Music hall with the streetcar.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/07/03/opposition-emerges-union-terminal-music-hall-tax/12198265/

So COAST is trying to tie a new sales tax propose for Union Terminal and Music hall with the streetcar.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/07/03/opposition-emerges-union-terminal-music-hall-tax/12198265/

 

Nothing new. I've been seeing people make comments like that for weeks. "If we didn't build the streetcar, we'd have money for Music Hall and Union Terminal!" As if we can just take federal transportation funding and use it to renovate historic buildings.

 

Finished streetcar track at 12th and Vine (June 21):

 

Rhinegeist streetcar stop (June 23):

 

Findlay Market streetcar stop (June 23):

 

The trench on 12th between Race and Vine (June 26):

Plus tens of millions is just a drop in the bucket compared to hundreds of millions that these renovations will cost.

Streetcar power station creates parking shortage

 

It's the end of the world

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/07/04/streetcar-parking/12226693/

Streetcar power station creates parking shortage

 

It's the end of the world

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/07/04/streetcar-parking/12226693/

 

 

Gotta keep that streetcar controversial, lest we lose the mother of all click cows.

 

Don't click, guys.

The Enquirer once claimed that people could walk the entire 3.6 mile streetcar route faster than the streetcar itself, yet they are concerned that someone might have to walk 0.3 miles from a parking space to their destination.

And if anyone needs additional proof that Todd Portune does not understand rail transit, check out this quote:

 

Portune said the bigger issue is the long-term loss of parking spaces.

 

“These businesses are dependent on pass-through customer spaces,” Portune said. “Folks need to have easy access, parking that is immediately adjacent.”

 

For businesses to survive Downtown, these parking spaces are imperative, Portune said.

And if anyone needs additional proof that Todd Portune does not understand rail transit, check out this quote:

 

Portune said the bigger issue is the long-term loss of parking spaces.

 

“These businesses are dependent on pass-through customer spaces,” Portune said. “Folks need to have easy access, parking that is immediately adjacent.”

 

For businesses to survive Downtown, these parking spaces are imperative, Portune said.

 

Worse -- this quote displays a complete lack of understanding of Downtowns (and urban neighborhoods/areas generally) and what makes them successful. It's like he just popped out of a time capsule from the 1980s (or earlier).

 

This is your closest thing to progressive leadership, Hamilton County.

And if anyone needs additional proof that Todd Portune does not understand rail transit, check out this quote:

 

Portune said the bigger issue is the long-term loss of parking spaces.

 

“These businesses are dependent on pass-through customer spaces,” Portune said. “Folks need to have easy access, parking that is immediately adjacent.”

 

For businesses to survive Downtown, these parking spaces are imperative, Portune said.

 

Todd never got the infrastructure gene, although he fancies himself as an expert.

Todd's got the Green Township Madness.

I remember discussing this on the Cincinnati Beacon blog - The Dean of Cincinnati? Back when CO    was talking about losing 300 parking spaces.

I NEVER click on fishwrap stories about the streetcar.  Can we agree to no longer post links to fishwrap stories here in this forum anymore?  Paraphrase and move on.

Will actually Cincy streetcar be preferred on traffic lights? If yes, that could significantly improve speed and atractivity of it.

I NEVER click on fishwrap stories about the streetcar.  Can we agree to no longer post links to fishwrap stories here in this forum anymore?  Paraphrase and move on.

 

Yes. Post the title and paraphrase. No link. Then if someone really wants to read it, they can dig for it. What happened to the Enquirer of six months ago that *didn't* want the project cancelled?  I guess they just wanted two more years of stirring up controversy where there is none, just for the page clicks.  That's just sad.