The SID must be approved "by the owners of at least 75% of the area of all real property located within the proposed district, excluding church property or property owned by the state, county, township, municipal, or federal government"

 

So all the property in the proposed district is calculated by square foot or acreage, and then the owners of at least 75% of the area must approve?

 

"For purposes of determining compliance with these requirements, the area of the district... shall be as shown in the most current records available at the county recorder's office and the county engineer's office sixty days prior to the date on which the petition is filed"

 

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/1710

 

So if you rent an apartment in OTR along the streetcar line you do not get a vote?

 

Correct, you have to be a property owner, not a renter. Between downtown and OTR, there will be a few dozen big players that need to be on board with this prior to it being considered seriously.

60% of street frontage <b>OR</b> 75% of properties by area.

 

That makes sense.

 

"•Objectives are affordable fares, a simple experience for riders and revenue generation. The primary options considered for adult base fare pricing were $1.00 and $1.75.

 

•Scenario modeling showed $1.00 fares generated 76% higher ridership, but 1% less revenue than $1.75.

 

Because revenue at the two primary fare options ($1.00 and $1.75) is comparable, the one more likely to boost ridership should be implemented. Thus, $1.00 is recommended."

 

 

 

That's a lot more riders for just 75 cents less!  But I'd be glad if they could keep fares to just a dollar. 

 

EDIT:  after some math, in their model it looks like $1 fare results in one million riders a year or 2,740 riders per day.  $1.75 fare results in 568,181 riders per year or 1,557 riders per day.

 

 

More riders would likely mean that the sponsorships and advertising would be more valuable. I wouldn't be surprised if overall revenues were higher with the $1 fare.

 

 

From a practical standpoint... at least a $1 intro fare for the first year or two would be great to get people used to the streetcar and how it operates. Then see how the ridership numbers come out based on that and make adjustments from there. $1 is a lot easier sell than needing to pay $1 + some amount of change to the average person.

fair ----> fare

I'm interested to see how the voting process is handled. Does each person have to prove that they have a certain amount of land area or a certain amount of street frontage? I live in a third-floor condo that has 100% street frontage but so do the two condos below me. So do I only have 33% street frontage for the purpose of voting on a SID?

Maybe the condo association votes as a whole? Not sure.

Century old stone back in place in OTR

John Faherty, [email protected] 7:16 a.m. EDT September 12, 2014

 

 

Most new construction jobs, especially for something like a street, involve heavy machinery and the latest technology.

 

But not on Elm Street in Over-the-Rhine along Washington Park, where streetcar construction has men on their knees in front of Music Hall placing old granite cobbles onto a bed of sand by hand.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/09/11/century-old-stone-back-place-otr/15486755/

To be fair, there is a new 12" thick reinforced concrete base under the sand bed.  Seems like a very sturdy construction method, though I wonder if it's better or worse for keeping the blocks from being shifted in the direction of travel over time by cars and trucks. 

I'm interested to see how the voting process is handled. Does each person have to prove that they have a certain amount of land area or a certain amount of street frontage? I live in a third-floor condo that has 100% street frontage but so do the two condos below me. So do I only have 33% street frontage for the purpose of voting on a SID?

 

I (and all my neighbors in the HOA) got letters from the city asking us to sign up for a special assessment for the lights on Mercer Street.  I assume they will ask all landowners and then total up the frontage based on what they get (i.e., you would vote and you would be down as having the frontage of 33% of the total frontage at your building). 

To be fair, there is a new 12" thick reinforced concrete base under the sand bed.  Seems like a very sturdy construction method, though I wonder if it's better or worse for keeping the blocks from being shifted in the direction of travel over time by cars and trucks. 

 

I would assume much better.  That street had gotten HORRIBLE in how much of it was sinking & collapsing.  It's never going to be smooth because those are belgian blocks, not cobblestone and they aren't nearly as smooth as brick or pavers, etc. but they should now be stable and last a long long time.

The SID must be approved "by the owners of at least 75% of the area of all real property located within the proposed district, excluding church property or property owned by the state, county, township, municipal, or federal government"

 

So all the property in the proposed district is calculated by square foot or acreage, and then the owners of at least 75% of the area must approve?

 

"For purposes of determining compliance with these requirements, the area of the district... shall be as shown in the most current records available at the county recorder's office and the county engineer's office sixty days prior to the date on which the petition is filed"

 

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/1710

 

So if you rent an apartment in OTR along the streetcar line you do not get a vote?

 

Only property owners get votes.  That's true of all SID's including the one downtown already.

 

For folks wondering what HOA does, I would just ask someone living in one of the Downtown HOA's

According to the weekly update, everything seems to be moving forward as planned with the exception of Time warner cable overhead utility adjustment and underground utility installation. It's been delayed about 2 weeks.  Thankfully, that has no major issues with the project timing and is incredibly minor.  They need the wires out of the way before Catenary wire is installed, which I am guessing for the OTR loop won't occur until late next summer at the soonest.

 

 

Time Warner was moving their above-ground cables on Race Street this week.

 

I should have clarified. The completion date, has been delayed by 2 weeks, not the start date.  I think they are just going a lot slower than was expected. 

To be fair, there is a new 12" thick reinforced concrete base under the sand bed.  Seems like a very sturdy construction method, though I wonder if it's better or worse for keeping the blocks from being shifted in the direction of travel over time by cars and trucks. 

 

I would assume much better.  That street had gotten HORRIBLE in how much of it was sinking & collapsing.  It's never going to be smooth because those are belgian blocks, not cobblestone and they aren't nearly as smooth as brick or pavers, etc. but they should now be stable and last a long long time.

 

Yes but that's not what I was talking about.  Sinking and such will definitely be fixed with the concrete base, but I don't see anything to prevent the blocks from sliding down the street in the direction of travel.  I've seen this in a few places, especially at intersections, but I can't find a good picture.  I don't see it being a big deal since there's not much truck traffic or buses, but I'm curious how this performs in that respect.

Gotcha.  At the southend the street has a solid concrete tub like feature, but that is contra to the direction of travel anyway.  Not sure if they'll replicate on the north end.  They seem to be pretty tightly packed so we'll have to see.  If they give the north end a bathtub lip of concrete then I don't think anything can move at all.

http://www.dot.gov/tiger

 

TIGER 2014 grants were announced today... on the map on the link above it says Cincinnati received $10MM+ for the streetcar. But if you click on the Cincinnati on the map the description seems to be wrong. And on the 2014 TIGER awards on the right hand side...that attachment does not mention Cincinnati.

 

So was the map an error?  Or outdated?

Cincinnati didn't even apply because of Cranley/Anti-Streetcar people.  Considering how much Detroit got for their system, I'd bet we DEFINITELY would have gotten the Phase 2 planning money we wanted.

Gotcha.  At the southend the street has a solid concrete tub like feature, but that is contra to the direction of travel anyway.  Not sure if they'll replicate on the north end.  They seem to be pretty tightly packed so we'll have to see.  If they give the north end a bathtub lip of concrete then I don't think anything can move at all.

 

There are also concrete crosswalks which break up the "tub" and will prevent the stones from sliding around.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/09/12/hailes-streetcar-plan-suggests-this-fare-heres-how.html

 

Some more info on the potential fare for riding.

 

Of course Cranley wants to charge as much as possible so that it will drive down ridership numbers and he can continue his blind opposition. Im sure he will try to manipulate SORTA board into raising the fare.

 

$1 vs $1.75 with 75%+ more ridership and 1% less revenue is a pretty easy choice to make.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/09/12/hailes-streetcar-plan-suggests-this-fare-heres-how.html

 

Some more info on the potential fare for riding.

 

Of course Cranley wants to charge as much as possible so that it will drive down ridership numbers and he can continue his blind opposition. Im sure he will try to manipulate SORTA board into raising the fare.

 

$1 vs $1.75 with 75%+ more ridership and 1% less revenue is a pretty easy choice to make.

 

Cranley's not dumb, so he's clearly nefarious. This is Econ 101 stuff. The price should be what maximizes revenue and what the market will bear. According to the studies the city had done, that's $1 or $1.75, and the logical choice would be $1 so more people can afford to utilize it. Charging more than a bus because it costs more to operate than a bus is backward logic because you'll obviously make less money by charging exorbitant fares.

The fare ought to be viewed through the lens of what produces the greatest ridership. More riders = more transportation service and. more importantly, more residents. businesses and investment along the line. The marginal cost of the Nth passenger is nil.

Yeah I wonder if Mayor Cranley will let the experts make the decision here. 

 

I feel that slowly and slowly this streetcar narrative is going to die off and the majority of people will see all of the benefits of having this in Cincinnati.  Although, still some people don't seem to understand the big picture, that is for sure.  No matter what you say to some people, they will always be right.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2014/09/12/streetcar-arrives-in-america-first-pictures/15520441/

 

Interesting that an article simply stating that the streetcar shells have arrived in NY for assembly needs to be filed under the "Politics" section of the enquirer's website.

 

I guess the automatically file any article with the word streetcar in it under politics. Im surprised it wasn't filed under their WATCHDOG section as well.

Yeah I wonder if Mayor Cranley will let the experts make the decision here. 

 

 

 

My guess would be no.  He feels like he is an expert...On everything.  That's why he has to be so in your face hands on with everything

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2014/09/12/streetcar-arrives-in-america-first-pictures/15520441/

 

Interesting that an article simply stating that the streetcar shells have arrived in NY for assembly needs to be filed under the "Politics" section of the enquirer's website.

 

I guess the automatically file any article with the word streetcar in it under politics. Im surprised it wasn't filed under their WATCHDOG section as well.

 

Positive Enquirer streetcar story is usually posted without promotion & buried within the same day.  Its also normally not posted to their Facebook wall

 

Meanwhile a negative enquirer streetcar story is front page headlines, promoted beyond belief, & posted up on their Facebook wall within seconds

Scarcely noticed here but nevertheless very important; on or about Labour day 2014 Toronto rolled out its new streetcars.  You tube is loaded with both amateur and professional videos.  A few interesting observations...what a difference 300 miles to the north makes.  Where are the whiners, cynical undermining politicians, and nay-sayers?...just enthusiastic throngs of passengers.  They picked the Spadina line for the roll-out, which because of it's excessive width has a lot of options for traffic control and passenger waiting areas that we don't have.  Also, these are the most advanced streetcars on the planet but they have...uh..poles instead of pantographs??  Must be their overhead switching system is still kind of archaic or complicated.  Also, they have done something with eliminating fare boxes and going to machines and proof-of payment.  And, apparently these are the first streetcars in Canada to have air conditioning.  Typical posting is here, but there's lots of others. 

This is the song that the old man in the boy scout uniform bursts into at 5:20:

 

To Finney, Miller, Jeff Capell, Cranley, Smitherman, Monzel, Tom Luken, and the rest of the grinches who have dedicated thousands of hours over the past 7 years attacking this streetcar project, this is for you:

 

You work and work for years and years, you're always on the go

You never take a minute off, too busy makin' dough

Someday you say, you'll have your fun, when you're a millionaire

Imagine all the fun you'll have in your old rockin' chair

 

Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think

Enjoy yourself, while you're still in the pink

The years go by, as quickly as a wink

Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself, it's later than you think

 

You're gonna take that ocean trip, no matter come what may

You've got your reservations made, but you just can't get away

Next year for sure, you'll see the world, you'll really get around

But how far can you travel when you're six feet underground?

 

Your heart of hearts, your dream of dreams, your ravishing brunette

She's left you and she's now become somebody else's pet

Lay down that gun, don't try my friend to reach the great beyond

You'll have more fun by reaching for a redhead or a blond

 

Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think

Enjoy yourself, while you're still in the pink

The years go by, as quickly as a wink

Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself, it's later than you think

 

You never go to night clubs and you just don't care to dance

You don't have time for silly things like moonlight and romance

You only think of dollar bills tied neatly in a stack

But when you kiss a dollar bill, it doesn't kiss you back

 

Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think

Enjoy yourself, while you're still in the pink

The years go by, as quickly as a wink

Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself, it's later than you think

 

Holy moly.  What are you into this AM!

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2014/09/12/streetcar-arrives-in-america-first-pictures/15520441/

 

Interesting that an article simply stating that the streetcar shells have arrived in NY for assembly needs to be filed under the "Politics" section of the enquirer's website.

 

I guess the automatically file any article with the word streetcar in it under politics. Im surprised it wasn't filed under their WATCHDOG section as well.

 

Could be worse...at least they didn't file it under "Crime" Lol! :)

Scarcely noticed here but nevertheless very important; on or about Labour day 2014 Toronto rolled out its new streetcars.  You tube is loaded with both amateur and professional videos.  A few interesting observations...what a difference 300 miles to the north makes.  Where are the whiners, cynical undermining politicians, and nay-sayers?...just enthusiastic throngs of passengers.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poddYVpSTPc

Here are OKI's lame excuses for not scoring the streetcar high enough to qualify for the latest CMAQ grant:

 

• Scheduled buses already run on or near the streetcar route.

 

• The sidewalks along the streetcar route are considered adequate for pedestrians.

 

• The streetcar doesn't significantly reduce the number of vehicles on the streets because it's a Downtown/OTR loop and isn't connected to any other neighborhoods or regional transportation system.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/09/13/streetcar-miss-chance-federal-funding/15610871/

 

 

 

 

There was also this gem:

 

"People have to understand: We're not building a streetcar in Salt Lake City where the streets are literally 30-50 yards wide," said Mark Policinski, OKI's executive director. "We have a built-out corridor. If you have a streetcar, then cars are going to be slowed down. Delay obviously increases emissions."

 

Policinski added: "So you have no emissions reduction. Right there, you're way behind the eight ball. You don't get any bang for the buck."

 

And Metro busses don't cause any delay whatsoever. At all. Okay.

Thus the danger of making specious assertions.  You will end up exposing the gaps In your rationale.

Here are OKI's lame excuses for not scoring the streetcar high enough to qualify for the latest CMAQ grant:

 

• Scheduled buses already run on or near the streetcar route.

 

• The sidewalks along the streetcar route are considered adequate for pedestrians.

 

• The streetcar doesn't significantly reduce the number of vehicles on the streets because it's a Downtown/OTR loop and isn't connected to any other neighborhoods or regional transportation system.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/09/13/streetcar-miss-chance-federal-funding/15610871/

 

 

I found this article to be maddening. These grants are supposed to encourage regional air quality attainment. Attainment of air quality goals is a matter of getting people to drive less, which is a problem solved by policies that encourage jobs and housing to be near each other. It is obvious that higher density is one of the only ways to achieve this goal. The streetcar, as an important component of urban economic growth, encourages this, and that's the way that the streetcar helps with air quality attainment.

 

My main point is that it's such a much more nonlinear and complex argument than what the above statements are admitting. It's disturbing that a director of the agency responsible for regional transportation policy either 1) only understands simple arguments that relate to the average density of vehicles on a few downtown streets, or 2) is willing to purposefully mislead the public with statements like these.

 

Also, I haven't seen the original proposal made to OKI. If that proposal led people down the road of "we're putting a few more people on mass transit on a few downtown streets, and so we're taking a few cars off those same streets" - then they deserved the ranking they got. I assume, and hope, they were trying to paint a broader picture of the role of mass transit. That also includes how important it is for this first project to be spectacularly successful, so that it helps to lead us to develop a real network that gets people where they want to go. If not, then we need some new people in the drivers seat for these proposals.

 

I just came back from 2 weeks in Seoul Korea. That place is just killing us in terms of every meaningful sustainability metric I could imagine. The density is amazing. It's not everybody's cup of tea for sure, but that doesn't mean that we don't have to compete directly with them. I'm worried about us sinking under the weight of our land use and transportation policies, if we can't somehow get a more enlightened public policy going. I mean, Seoul has legal double parking, just as a for instance. See the attached pic. They leave their cars in neutral and simply push them out of the way, instead of purchasing more land and concrete for parking garages. How are our suburban lifestyles gonna compete with that sort of efficiency, long term? We should dread the day when places like Korea wake up and decide they need a National culture for creative thinking as opposed to rote learning, cause that's the only thing holding them back.

Guess what?  Citizens' Budget Commission (of New York), new study shows that cities like NYC, San Francisco, Philadelphia, DC (all previously assumed to be very expensive) are actually more affordable than sprawl cities IF you can limit or discontinue your driving (by living in a higher density transit friendly city).  More info here:  http://www.cbcny.org/

Jim, I have heard that South Korea (and like Japan as well) has such strict land-use policy because they are a food importer.  They need every inch of farmland they can get, which is why the government has dictated high-density residential. 

 

Meanwhile it's unknowable how much the growth of the US population will change our need for farmland.  On one hand we have tons of former farmland that is now meadows and woods, but on the other hand yields might continue to improve with technology and the population's tastes might drift away from meat, meaning less land is necessary per capita. 

 

I wonder if the Enquirer was paid to publish that article. It was just a promotion of the suburbs and various new housing developments in and around Mason. It was not news.

Scarcely noticed here but nevertheless very important; on or about Labour day 2014 Toronto rolled out its new streetcars.  You tube is loaded with both amateur and professional videos.  A few interesting observations...what a difference 300 miles to the north makes.  Where are the whiners, cynical undermining politicians, and nay-sayers?...just enthusiastic throngs of passengers.  They picked the Spadina line for the roll-out, which because of it's excessive width has a lot of options for traffic control and passenger waiting areas that we don't have.  Also, these are the most advanced streetcars on the planet but they have...uh..poles instead of pantographs??  Must be their overhead switching system is still kind of archaic or complicated.  Also, they have done something with eliminating fare boxes and going to machines and proof-of payment.  And, apparently these are the first streetcars in Canada to have air conditioning.  Typical posting is here, but there's lots of others.

 

The poles are temporary. The new streetcars will be switched over to pantographs as they make upgrades the the overhead wires.

 

I just came back from 2 weeks in Seoul Korea. That place is just killing us in terms of every meaningful sustainability metric I could imagine. The density is amazing. It's not everybody's cup of tea for sure, but that doesn't mean that we don't have to compete directly with them. I'm worried about us sinking under the weight of our land use and transportation policies, if we can't somehow get a more enlightened public policy going. I mean, Seoul has legal double parking, just as a for instance. See the attached pic. They leave their cars in neutral and simply push them out of the way, instead of purchasing more land and concrete for parking garages. How are our suburban lifestyles gonna compete with that sort of efficiency, long term? We should dread the day when places like Korea wake up and decide they need a National culture for creative thinking as opposed to rote learning, cause that's the only thing holding them back.

 

The day that happens is the day they also start thinking on an individualistic rather than a collective basis.  The two go together. 

 

Did you see any Korean pop music over there, especially videos?  They're really trying to be American.  Indeed, a lot of the top stars look like they have more than a little bit of US ancestry.

Jim, I have heard that South Korea (and like Japan as well) has such strict land-use policy because they are a food importer.  They need every inch of farmland they can get, which is why the government has dictated high-density residential.

 

That's correct. I asked this when I went over there two years ago. Even the smallest of towns that we passed had towers. It was almost comical because many of these in the rural areas outside of Seoul and some of the other major cities will not be needed if their population drops sharply as predicted due to their absurdly low birthrate.

 

I remember this one town vividly. They are essentially raising the town out of a flood plain. Instead of the post World War II structures - many of which were never designed to last more than 50 years, it's high rises: http://goo.gl/maps/KUpq4. I'm not sure why they are building out with room to grow, especially since it's an area of the country that just isn't growing demographically.

 

 

Rural --> urban migration most likely. 

Some of these might be better moved to the Korea thread.

Some of these might be better moved to the Korea thread.

 

There's a Korea thread???

Some of these might be better moved to the Korea thread.

 

There's a Korea thread???

 

urbankorea.com?

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,9506.0.html

I found this article to be maddening. These grants are supposed to encourage regional air quality attainment. Attainment of air quality goals is a matter of getting people to drive less, which is a problem solved by policies that encourage jobs and housing to be near each other. It is obvious that higher density is one of the only ways to achieve this goal. The streetcar, as an important component of urban economic growth, encourages this, and that's the way that the streetcar helps with air quality attainment.

 

My main point is that it's such a much more nonlinear and complex argument than what the above statements are admitting. It's disturbing that a director of the agency responsible for regional transportation policy either 1) only understands simple arguments that relate to the average density of vehicles on a few downtown streets, or 2) is willing to purposefully mislead the public with statements like these.

 

"Disturbing" is an understatement. I honestly did not realize such backwardness existed among the region's top brass planning professionals. This is like having Ken Ham (of Creation Museum fame) in charge of the NSF.

I imagine someone forced their hand in this... Someone against the streetcar... Someone who might have a vested interest in seeing it fail.

I imagine someone forced their hand in this... Someone against the streetcar... Someone who might have a vested interest in seeing it fail.

 

Plus, it's hard to believe Mark Policinski had the nerve to make some of the statements he did in the article, which strained credulity.

^ These arguments -- "buses run the same route" (not true), "blocks traffic" (much less than a bus does, and what abut all those cars that would have otherwise been driven by streetcar passengers?), "transit carries only 2% of all trips" (true, depending on your definition of a "trip") are the arguments Stephan Louis has used for years around here.

Not surprising that OKI was the only metropolitan planning organization in Ohio to vote against having their association, the Ohio Association of Regional Councils (OARC), join the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission and provide three years worth of membership dues (I think it's $15,000 per year). MIPRC is the compact of Midwest states and other stakeholders to promote collaboration on passenger rail development and planning. ODOT privately urged the legislature to drop its membership in MIPRC when its 2-year budget was passed in 2013. Seems OKI is more in line with ODOT's stance of denying Ohioans transportation choices.

 

BTW, the director of NOACA got OARC to join MIPRC (I luv acronyms!). This is what she said recently and which OKI needs to grasp:

 

Mobility is the essence of our freedom. To the extent that mobility is limited...we are less free.

http://www.gcbl.org/blog/2014/09/neos-top-transportation-official-declares-transportation-choice-equals-freedom

I imagine someone forced their hand in this... Someone against the streetcar... Someone who might have a vested interest in seeing it fail.

 

Plus, it's hard to believe Mark Policinski had the nerve to make some of the statements he did in the article, which strained credulity.

 

Um, guys, our Transportation director is an asphalt lobbyist. Nothing at the state or regional level is going to be easy until he's gone. Nothing.