The juxtaposition of the sleek streetcar stop and the broken sign behind it is fascinating.

 

It's all a matter of perspective.  You might say broken, another might say a relic of pre-historic district status.  I know for a fact that the owner has tried on numerous occasions to use that sign, but can not get approval due to new rules.

Streetcar stop at Elm and Liberty (September 7, 2014):

 

The juxtaposition of the sleek streetcar stop and the broken sign behind it is fascinating.

 

Not to mention the crumbing building, billboard, and cinder block tire repair building. These will make for some pretty amazing before-and-afters... just wait until the Liberty Street road diet goes through and the streetcar is operating.

Streetcar stop at Elm and Liberty (September 7, 2014):

 

 

The juxtaposition of the sleek streetcar stop and the broken sign behind it is fascinating.

 

Yep, that's a keeper. One thing the people in Portland seem to regret - there are very few "before" pictures of the route of the Portland Streetcar. Keep these coming.

 

Not to mention the crumbing building, billboard, and cinder block tire repair building. These will make for some pretty amazing before-and-afters... just wait until the Liberty Street road diet goes through and the streetcar is operating.

Streetcar stop at Elm and Liberty (September 7, 2014):

 

 

The juxtaposition of the sleek streetcar stop and the broken sign behind it is fascinating.

 

Yep, that's a keeper. One thing the people in Portland seem to regret - there are very few "before" pictures of the route of the Portland Streetcar. Keep these coming.

 

Not to mention the crumbing building, billboard, and cinder block tire repair building. These will make for some pretty amazing before-and-afters... just wait until the Liberty Street road diet goes through and the streetcar is operating.

 

You can use google streetview to go 'back in time' to 2007 (and other points in between). It's pretty remarkable.

Oh hell, it's Friday, why not throw a little more gasoline on this fire.

 

Question: why should residents have preferential rights to park on the street paying the city much, much less than what shopkeepers, office workers and restaurant workers are willing to pay?. Don't say it's because residents pay taxes to the city because the people in all those other examples do too.

 

I think this is another example of the inner-suburb/ outer-suburb mentally being grafted onto a city that needs to change. Sure you can park on the street in College Hill for free. Downtown and close-in neighborhood business districts are different. They offer jobs and services that you don't have to drive to. A different culture exists.

 

In perfect agreement with you, Its supply and demand, Look at Chicago, their urban areas like Lincoln Park require residential parking permits to park on the street in front of your house. Heck the same in Columbus by Ohio State. There are plenty of garages in those places to accommodate many of the cars but there is also a convenience factor of being able to park within a block of where you live. That is worth something when space is at a premium. Parking is free in College Hill because space is much less expensive. Heck they build fancy parking garages in the city as well as the suburbs too. In the city they charge a bundle to park there because space is at a premium. In the suburbs, the garages are often free because they serve a different purpose.

 

I think the thing to keep in mind is that you are not competing with other drivers for space, but you are also competing with other buildings, people, etc who want that same space. You do not have that in the burbs. 

"Most road/highway projects will outline something like a $30 million cost and $400 million in benefits.  Sounds like a no-brainer.  However, when 90% of that supposed $400 million in benefits is just "time savings" then how much tax is collected on that?"

 

ooops, messed up using the quote button but anyway,

 

^ Nice, Jj.  A couple of other observations, gotta throw in my two bits here.  A new highway project yields "time savings", which does indeed have a monetary value;  but: its temporary.  Following a highway project, eventually VMT (vehicle miles traveled) simply increases, and the new highway fills to capacity at peak hour.  Highway projects are only economic gainers/winners in the long run if VMT does't increase, rarely the case.  When I used to do transportation planning work it seems like few people would admit this.  And another one: think of the long-term value of taxable land in private hands being taken out of private ownership for widening or new rights of way (therefore no longer producing tax revenues). This is a huge long term cost that most people don't see.  It seems like many of our public streets and highways have excessive rights of way.  Cincinnati isn't so bad, but look at some cities like Detroit, or better examples out west.  I 'm sure we all understand this, but maybe needs repeating here to help make our case, as streetcars are normally constructed within existing public rights-of-way.

Hello all,

 

Last night I compared my Uptown Five streetcar plan with Plan Cincinnati, Cincinnati's award winning plan for the future adopted in 2012 ( http://www.plancincinnati.org/learn/about-plan-cincinnati/download-plan-cincinnati ). ICYMI the Uptown Five is a collection of 5 routes for Uptown I've been developing that serves 7 hospitals, UC, XU, and the Zoo.  Each route shares a nexus at a Transit Center at University Plaza.  I'll try to put a presentation on dropbox or something soon that fully explains this idea, but in the meantime there is some stuff on flickr ( .) I've marked up the Plan Cincinnati map with the routes in red in the photo below. 

 

The Uptown Five would connect 7 uptown neighborhood centers as defined by Plan Cincinnati.  They are Clifton, Clifton Heights, Corryville, Avondale (A), Walnut Hills, East Walnut Hills, and Evanston (A).  It comes within a quarter mile of another (Evanston (B)) and within a half mile of yet another (Avondale (B)). (There are 40 neighborhood centers defined total.)

 

In Plan Cincinnati, the centers were ranked either maintain, evolve, or transform for walkability (Maintain having the highest walkability.)  Of the centers directly connected by this Uptown Five streetcar plan, 1 of these centers was classified as  "Maintain" (Clifton.) 3 were classified as "Evolve" (Clifton Heights, Corryville, and East Walnut Hills.) 3 were classified as "Transform"  (Avondale (A), Walnut Hills,  and Evanston (A).)  Sounds like a streetcar could help increase walkability and pedestrian activity in the centers that need a boost. 

 

Also, Auburn Ave. was marked on another page as a "Preliminary Opportunities for Future Mixed-Use Development or Neighborhood Centers." Sounds like a streetcar could help there too!

 

Pretty neat stuff!

 

 

 

I don't think that much is gained by having as many lines as possible meet at a single point.  I think that it's better to have lines on Calhoun/WH Taft and McMillan simply continue east/west on their respective streets near Vine.  Also I've always imagined that two streetcar routings would run on this alignment...half of the streetcars would remain uptown, traveling between Clifton and Walnut Hills, and the other half would start at those respective endpoints and travel downtown. 

Everyone seems to like an east west alignment, but there's no clear favorite on what north south route to take.

 

As far as having many lines meet at a point goes, if you can have one or two dedicated streetcars maintain a good headway on these shorter routes, why not have them?  You could cover more places and the routes themselves would be less winding and circuitous. 

 

Also, if you were downtown, and half the streetcars went up to Clifton, and half of them went up to Walnut Hills, aren't you essentially doubling your headway to get where you want to go uptown?  Are you then getting into an area where you are checking schedules instead of just going to a stop with confidence a streetcar will be there soon?  (I do like your suggestion if the Transit Center idea is impossible though.)

 

I think whether this idea would work or not all boils down to how big of a drawback a transfer is.  If you were coming from downtown to Christ, and spent 7 minutes coming from downtown up the hill, 8 minutes at the Transit Center waiting to transfer, and three minutes on the next streetcar to the hospital, is that an acceptable commute that people will do?  Is it better than not running to Christ Hospital at all, or only coming as close as Hollister St. and having a long walk at the end? 

 

John cranley was on 55krc & it started off positively. He was talking about potential operating plans for the streetcar.  Then he reiterated his frequency quotes:

 

 

'The good news is that...We have no obligations on the frequency of how often we drive the streetcar' John Cranley 55krc

'Were only going to run it as frequently as were going to have the money to run it'

 

Combine this with his comments earlier about possibly having a plan for 'initial frequency', its pretty clear what he wants to do

http://www.55krc.com/media/podcast-brian-thomas-morning-show-55krcMornings/thursday-with-the-judge-mayor-cranley-25321703/

 

Meanwhile Smitherman is going off again with his 150th podcast on 700wlw alone since 2011:

'They are not coming & they are not coming at a level that we can afford to operate the streetcar' Smitherman

'88% of homeless people, which will be the target of the streetcar, love gift cards' Marc Amazon

http://www.700wlw.com/media/podcast-marc-amazon-amazon/cincinnati-finance-bengals-and-sheriff-jones-25315361/

^ The anti-streetcar rhetoric really does get around to a lot of people on these a.m. radios.  When all the latest streetcar operating fund "crisis" propaganda a few weeks ago was going on, I heard from two different people about it.  One of them I couldn't tell or not if he was for or against it, just that he was really disappointed and didn't want it to be shut down like what happened to the subway.  My other friend lived in SLC for a few years and said something a long the lines of, "I loved taking the transit in SLC it was so good.  I am sure it will be great here, but it doesn't sound like we can afford it.  I do know and remember talking to people that they hated it until it got moving for awhile, then everyone loved it.  Who knows..."

 

I think this just needs to get running.  I hate how the administration and specifically John Cranley just won't let this die down.  In their eyes, it will never be successful, no matter what.

I wanted to add as well, and I am sure some of you know a lot better than myself, but just an open ended question or statement on better ways to measure the impact besides just "business relocating, population etc.".

 

Is there a way we could measure say, the reduction of crime in the neighborhood financially?  Does the city have statistics on district 1 in Cincinnati and how much money they spent on police / law enforcement / fire / medical bills, etc. 

 

In my mind opponents can't see the big picture here.  They think this is just a pet project.  The supporters, in fact the most ardent supporters, see the true benefit of this project.  Turning around a neighborhood and areas of downtown where vacancy, neglect, crime, illicit activity was rampant.  It is just another piece to tie everything together that 3CDC and other stakeholders have worked on for years.  It connects everything and it shows a hard commitment, investment.

 

It is hard not to think that in outer neighborhoods where opponents may live that they are jealous of a large financial commitment to the core of the city.  But I don't think people realize that OTR can go from a "City destination" to a "metro destination" (Probably metro destination right now), to a "regional destination" and on to a "national destination".  If OTR and downtown get built out to that level, watch out.  I think the money coming in will be more than anyone is figuring right now.  I think this whole streetcar debate is small minded thinking by civic leaders in charge right now.  Got to hand it to Mayor Mallory, he was a big picture thinker and without his leadership, we be stuck in neutral.

I wanted to add as well, and I am sure some of you know a lot better than myself, but just an open ended question or statement on better ways to measure the impact besides just "business relocating, population etc.".

 

Is there a way we could measure say, the reduction of crime in the neighborhood financially?  Does the city have statistics on district 1 in Cincinnati and how much money they spent on police / law enforcement / fire / medical bills, etc. 

 

In my mind opponents can't see the big picture here.  They think this is just a pet project.  The supporters, in fact the most ardent supporters, see the true benefit of this project.  Turning around a neighborhood and areas of downtown where vacancy, neglect, crime, illicit activity was rampant.  It is just another piece to tie everything together that 3CDC and other stakeholders have worked on for years.  It connects everything and it shows a hard commitment, investment.

 

It is hard not to think that in outer neighborhoods where opponents may live that they are jealous of a large financial commitment to the core of the city.  But I don't think people realize that OTR can go from a "City destination" to a "metro destination" (Probably metro destination right now), to a "regional destination" and on to a "national destination".  If OTR and downtown get built out to that level, watch out.  I think the money coming in will be more than anyone is figuring right now.  I think this whole streetcar debate is small minded thinking by civic leaders in charge right now.  Got to hand it to Mayor Mallory, he was a big picture thinker and without his leadership, we be stuck in neutral.

 

 

The big problem is that the rise in crime elsewhere is being blamed on the streetcar and OTR's "success".  I hear people talking about walking away from homes they bought on the West Side, in Mt. Airy, and in College Hill that they bought in the 1990s for $90,000 and still owe $45,000 on.  There are many more of these people than there are recent DT and OTR condo purchasers. 

I wanted to add as well, and I am sure some of you know a lot better than myself, but just an open ended question or statement on better ways to measure the impact besides just "business relocating, population etc.".

 

Is there a way we could measure say, the reduction of crime in the neighborhood financially?  Does the city have statistics on district 1 in Cincinnati and how much money they spent on police / law enforcement / fire / medical bills, etc. 

 

In my mind opponents can't see the big picture here.  They think this is just a pet project.  The supporters, in fact the most ardent supporters, see the true benefit of this project.  Turning around a neighborhood and areas of downtown where vacancy, neglect, crime, illicit activity was rampant.  It is just another piece to tie everything together that 3CDC and other stakeholders have worked on for years.  It connects everything and it shows a hard commitment, investment.

 

It is hard not to think that in outer neighborhoods where opponents may live that they are jealous of a large financial commitment to the core of the city.  But I don't think people realize that OTR can go from a "City destination" to a "metro destination" (Probably metro destination right now), to a "regional destination" and on to a "national destination".  If OTR and downtown get built out to that level, watch out.  I think the money coming in will be more than anyone is figuring right now.  I think this whole streetcar debate is small minded thinking by civic leaders in charge right now.  Got to hand it to Mayor Mallory, he was a big picture thinker and without his leadership, we be stuck in neutral.

 

 

The big problem is that the rise in crime elsewhere is being blamed on the streetcar and OTR's "success".  I hear people talking about walking away from homes they bought on the West Side, in Mt. Airy, and in College Hill that they bought in the 1990s for $90,000 and still owe $45,000 on.  There are many more of these people than there are recent DT and OTR condo purchasers.

 

That makes sense.  I wonder if that is where the animosity of it is origined.  I am naïve since I haven't lived here for very long, but have a lot of people really been displaced out of the DT and OTR?

The simplest answer is no. There are certainly potential issues with displacement but nearly the entirety of the work done in OTR is in vacant buildings and many of the projects downtown are conversions of office space or new construction.

 

The displacement argument is just a crutch politicians use.

^The demolition of the huge housing projects in the West End most certainly did displace thousands of people from the core.  However, that was kind of the point...to spread section 8 housing around and not have it all concentrated in one neighborhood.  I do agree that the gentrification of OTR is not directly responsible for a massive displacement, though.

Yeah that's why I said, "the simplest answer is no." There are obviously certain things that happened such as the demolition of the public housing in the West End that displaced people but the question seemed to be more aimed towards the rehab and construction work happening around OTR/Downtown and not huge city projects.

The demolition of the West End came long before the current destruction of Price Hill, Westwood, etc.  These neighborhoods were vital areas long into the 70's and 80's.

 

There has been displacement in OTR long before the streetcar.  That was one of the things Buddy Gray used to fight about.  Once he was murdered, no one resumed his battle.

Buddy Gray chose to do his thing in OTR because the neighborhood offered him endless opportunities to fight with preservationists, fight with wealthy people who patronized and donated to the symphony, and to fight the city since the neighborhood is adjacent to downtown.  It's no accident that the Drop-In shelter was located between City Hall and Music Hall.  Buddy Gray didn't care so much about the people he claimed to give a voice to and was willing to destroy a historic neighborhood to serve his odd need for attention. 

 

 

The demolition of the West End came long before the current destruction of Price Hill, Westwood, etc.  These neighborhoods were vital areas long into the 70's and 80's.

 

There has been displacement in OTR long before the streetcar.  That was one of the things Buddy Gray used to fight about.  Once he was murdered, no one resumed his battle.

 

The projects were torn down in the late 90s or early 2000's...

The public housing was torn down in phases 1999-2000 but was replaced in phases with the housing that is there now.  I'm not sure how many fewer people now live in the area but it's probably a similar number.  Plus, all of the junky small apartments between Linn St. and I-75 weren't touched so there really hasn't been a complete change.  Meanwhile some other public housing blocks *have* been completely demo'd and not replaced with anything, especially English Woods. 

Sorry, I thought you meant the traditional west end destroyed for 75.

Let's get back on topic.

The Henry to Race curve should see rail installation soon:

3 days without a post! Has that ever happened before?

 

Tonight at 7PM 8th street will be closed for the entire weekend for the 8th Street pour, reopening early Monday Morning.

 

The first week of September still had 1 week left in the Central Parkway to 9th St construction.  At the end of next weekend there will be track all the way to the 7th street intersection. 

 

That means they went from 9th to 7th in 3 weeks.  Things will get more complicated now as they get further into the core and the blocks are longer, but assuming a slightly slower 2 blocks in 5 weeks schedule, the Streetcar track will be entirely laid through to the beginning of the 5th street intersection by the end of October.

 

Assuming an even slower more conservative speed of 6 weeks for the blocks of 5th to 3rd street (potentially crappier weather, increased delays etc.) we could be seeing rail all the way to 3rd Street by mid December.

 

The section on Race from Henry to the north side of Findlay market should be done in about 3 weeks as well. I'm not sure of the timeline on the Findlay Market to Green Street section that is also not finished.  That would be the first lane change to be finished. Streetcar will go from right against the curb to left lane there (transition of 3 lane widths).  There is also a lane change on Main at Government Place (same thing, 3 lane width transition).  I'm not counting the Central Parkway lane change because that goes into a transit only lane. 

 

Photo from today: Tracks almost to 7th.

 

Gee.  Is that a utility access in the middle of the tracks?  Memba when that was a big deal?

Water & sewer are definitely between the tracks. There are some Cincinnati bell manholes within inches of the track Slab, but all duke electric manholes seem to be at least several feet away. Haven't paid attention to duke gas fixtures.

Gee.  Is that a utility access in the middle of the tracks?  Memba when that was a big deal?

 

I'm sure that Duke's hissy fit over manholes had everything to do with their concern for the safety of the workers and nothing at all to do with the fact that Johnna Reeder, the VP of Duke Energy Ohio, was the president of the Build Our Bridge Now Coalition. :rolls eyes:

I haven't posted any shots of the rebuilt Elm Street yet. Construction has been finished for over a week now.

 

 

 

 

Just got back from another trip to Portland where we dug deeper into how they pay for operating expenses.

 

I'll be putting something out on this soon, but guess the percentage of the operating cost that is paid by property owners along the streetcar lines there. Not capital costs, but operating costs.

 

100%?

 

50%?

 

You'd be wrong.

 

The correct answer is ...

 

... 0%.

 

^The city gets away with shirking any responsibility for operating expenses because opponents refuse to acknowledge the streetcar as legitimate.  Even though streetcars are an increasingly prevalent means of transit and economic development in the US, the deadbeats regard it as a bothersome novelty, characterize it as a toy choo choo (Smitherman), a rolling homeless shelter (Murray) - none of which are worthy of support.  Include in this group Mark Policinski of OKI:

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/contributors/2014/09/28/prof-exit-highway-health-problems/16410437/

 

 

 

 

I am still digesting everything I learned on my trip to Portland with John, and I will write something up within the next few days. But one interesting tidbit is that Tri-Met (the regional transportation agency) has agreed to take on a portion of the streetcar operating costs, because they understand that in addition to the streetcar being an economic development initiative, it is a transit initiative as well. And if Portland shut down the streetcar today and Tri-Met had to run additional buses to carry all those passengers... well, it would be way more expensive than paying to operate the streetcar.

I am still digesting everything I learned on my trip to Portland with John, and I will write something up within the next few days. But one interesting tidbit is that Tri-Met (the regional transportation agency) has agreed to take on a portion of the streetcar operating costs, because they understand that in addition to the streetcar being an economic development initiative, it is a transit initiative as well. And if Portland shut down the streetcar today and Tri-Met had to run additional buses to carry all those passengers... well, it would be way more expensive than paying to operate the streetcar.

 

That implies that Trimet has reorganized their routes to account for ridership pattern changes...something that Metro isn't able to budget for at the moment.

^ Remember the streetcar goes south of Fifth Street, which almost no Metro bus routes do. Altering the bus routes to offer the same frequency and capacity to the Banks as the streetcar would surely be very expensive.

John: I am really interested in your report. May I guess if there are any lottery funds in it?

Hydrodemolition now occurring on 2nd at Main St.

Help me out, what is hydrodemolition? Because it sounds awesome but I'm pretty sure what I'm picturing isn't what it actually is.

 

Edit: Just looked it up, my mental image was correct. How did I not know this term before?

Stop the Presses:

 

"A streetcar is not a bad situation. They work!"

 

-Charlie Winburn

 

Chrissie Thompson ‏@CThompsonENQ

.@charliejobs1st: Would advocate for state to pay for parts of "comprehensive plan" including #cincystreetcar, Brent Spence Bridge, rail etc

 

 

Is this a case of change of heart or just clear pandering?

My guess is he's done some polling and found support for rail -- perhaps due in part to Cincinnatians getting comfortable with the streetcar.

That's encouraging. I have a feeling that those who are adamantly against rail regardless of the data you throw at them aren't going to be swayed by the streetcar whatsoever. But thankfully those people, though vocal, don't seem to make up the majority when I talk to people about rail. The average person might not understand the streetcar currently but this is in the same way they didn't understand the renovations of Fountain Square and Washington Park, or the construction of The Banks, but after seeing them in person being successful, change their minds. These are the people we should be focusing our energy on. The population might be hesitant at times, but when people see something turned out nice in person they're likely to better understand it. Most people here haven't ever used rail transit and it's still a foreign concept to them so it's not surprising many people misunderstand or don't initially support projects like the streetcar. The future looks bright though for expansion regardless of our awful leadership at the mayoral level.

^ This is why the opponents fought it so hard for so long. They know people will want more of it.

That and people are generally selfish (and I don't mean that in a bad way). When one neighborhood thrives and people are riding the streetcar en masse through OTR and Downtown, people in adjacent neighborhoods are going to be of the, "hey, I want that here it isn't fair it stops right before entering our neighborhood" mindset. Then you have places like Uptown, Walnut Hills, Price Hill, etc. all wanting to get in on it too so they aren't left out. It always seems like after the first phase of any streetcar or rail project these days that subsequent phases happen significantly sooner/faster. Is there any compiled data anywhere to support that theory?

I am still digesting everything I learned on my trip to Portland with John, and I will write something up within the next few days. But one interesting tidbit is that Tri-Met (the regional transportation agency) has agreed to take on a portion of the streetcar operating costs, because they understand that in addition to the streetcar being an economic development initiative, it is a transit initiative as well. And if Portland shut down the streetcar today and Tri-Met had to run additional buses to carry all those passengers... well, it would be way more expensive than paying to operate the streetcar.

 

That implies that Trimet has reorganized their routes to account for ridership pattern changes...something that Metro isn't able to budget for at the moment.

 

In Cincinnati, streetcar opponents in the past have asked, "Is this a transportation project or an economic development project?" What Portland now understands is that new streetcar routes start out as an economic development project (fewer destinations along the route, lower ridership) and over time transition into a transportation project (more residents and businesses locate along the route and ridership increases). As streetcar routes go towards "transportation" in that continuum, TriMet picks up more of the operating costs. SORTA should do the same for the Cincinnati streetcar.

If we are using light rail grade materials unlike other cities I'm still not sure why we cant leverage the subway tunnels on that federal match and create a sloping entrance somewhere on/right off central parkway to run a subway line at least to the cincinnati state/northside area.  We could have a whole city of light rails terminating in streetcar loops!

My guess is he's done some polling and found support for rail -- perhaps due in part to Cincinnatians getting comfortable with the streetcar.

 

Charlie is running for state rep in a district that is 30+ Dem. It's one of the most democratic in the state. He's saying these things to get elected.

Cincy gets a mention...

 

Hey, Streetcar Critics: Stop Making 'Perfect' the Enemy of 'Good'

 

Even when they're not ideal, streetcar projects can still benefit cities. Here are five ways how.

David Alpert@ggwash

 

 

American streetcar projects have gotten some tough love recently. Writers who advocate for walkable, transit-oriented urban neighborhoods are questioning whether streetcar investments really enhance mobility, and whether they’re worth the money, if, as is often the case in the U.S., a new line has no dedicated lane or runs infrequently.

 

Matthew Yglesias wrote at Vox that streetcars aren’t worthwhile unless they have a dedicated lane. He called the streetcar on H Street in Washington, D.C. “the worst transit project in America.” Respected transit expert Jarrett Walker agrees, proclaiming that “streetcars mixed with private car traffic are overrated.”

 

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/10/hey-streetcar-critics-stop-making-perfect-the-enemy-of-good/380913/

Chris Finney and COAST are at it again lying

 

Finney said he believes SORTA is considering a tax increase now to help cover the cost of operating Cincinnati's streetcar.

 

"This is just another streetcar tax," Finney said.

 

Hilvers said that's not the case. She said the SORTA board has promised that the agency will not use public money to operate the streetcar, and that all costs will be covered by the city.

 

"Our current board has absolutely no plan to use any transit dollars that we have for streetcar operation," she said.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2014/10/01/transit-agency-sales-tax-hamilton-county-sorta/16528633/

 

They are proven wrong over and over again, they literally fought for their right to lie in court.  Yet the media keeps running to them with open arms

Charlie Winburn is most definitely using support for the streetcar as political pandering

 

"The empowerment zone is one of the worst government programs since the streetcar"

 

-Charlie Winburn, Monday Sept 29, 2014

 

1:12:20

 

https://archive.org/details/11140929BFC

^ How is that a statement of support for the streetcar?