This will get some people going:

 

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/PaulWeyrich/2007/02/01/the_next_conservatism_49_bringing_back_streetcars

This will get some people going:

 

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/PaulWeyrich/2007/02/01/the_next_conservatism_49_bringing_back_streetcars

 

Excellent PR!

Here are some images of the upper Elm St. area.

 

 

Between Findlay St. and Hammond St., looking north.

 

At McMicken St., looking up at the w. Clifton hill and the afore mentioned apartment building and site of 1970's landslide:

 

About 15ft. up the hill looking back along Elm St. toward downtown (the low building just above the billboard looks like a good spot for a car barn, although the Findlay Market parking lot is another): 

 

 

www.Citystreetcar.net re-wrote the narrative and turned the 42mb power point presentation into a managable 4mb quicktime file with an added timeline at the end.

From the national light mafia, a crash course comparing and contrasting modern streetcars and light rail:

 

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_lrt_2007-02a.htm

Key quote: "Streetcars are for people who don't use public transportation."

 

See: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0205/p13s01-lign.html?page=1

^Essentially "white people don't ride busses"

^Essentially "white people don't ride busses"

 

I do, and I'm white.

 

The point is, buses aren't car-competitive. There's not much dispute about that. So if you want to attract more people out of their cars, you've got to put something better than buses out there.

 

And here's a countercurrent -- both locally and nationally: transit opponents are trying to marginalize public transportation by repositioning it as a social program that ought to be reserved only for the most needy rather than wasting scarce resources on frills like rail, when, in fact, many transit opponents could probably care less about social and environmental justice. They are very cleverly trying to make your average voter feel that public transportation really isn't for them. It's a very pernicious trend. In a way, it's the same bind many public school systems find themselves in today.

 

I think the author of that statement wants to make public transportation something that more, not fewer, people value. When public services appeal to the broadest range of citizens, they have the durable support. The last thing transit opponents want to see is public transportation that is attractive to everyone. Think about it.

^Essentially "white people don't ride busses"

 

I do, and I'm white.

 

Oh come on lets not pretend buses are completely diverse. It's almost entirely lower class minorities that have no other choice.

 

That is..unless there's enough of an incentive. Look at it from an economic standpoint. Time is your scarcest resource. It takes less than half the time to drive somewhere than it does to take the bus. Streetcars serve a different purpose than buses; if you're going to be walking downtown anyway, just hop on the streetcar for a few blocks. Buses are often used for long range commuting.

Also, the stone structure in the upper right corner was formerly a pier for the Belleview Hill inclined plane. This site already has a history of transit!

 

I was curious if someone was going to bring this up.  I made a cursory inspection of the old incline ROW's years ago and it seemed to me that both the Bellevue line (which took one from Elm St. to Ohio Ave and thence to Calhoun down to Clifton) and the Mt Auburn incline (parallel to the Main St. Steps that lead to Jackson Park, kind of behiind Christ Hospital) are both empty, and therefore still in existence.  Why can't these former ROW's be used, bypassing Clifton Rd. down the hill entirely?

 

Also, I'd just like to add that having the nothbound Streetcar line from the river up Elm and the southbound from Clifton down Race seems perfect- only one block, and ready access to countless important Cincinnati Institutions, including Findlay Market, Music Hall, City Hall, the Convention Center, and the Bengals Stadium.  The east side of downtown could be serviced the same way, on a line running down Walnut and up Main.

 

Is Longworth Hall a viable spot for the (rolling) stock yards?

 

  ^----"Why can't these former ROW's be used?"

 

  They could be, if you don't mind taking a whole 2 minutes to ride up or down the hill. That's about what it took when the inclines were in operation. The ROW's for all five Cincinnati inclines are mostly intact.

 

 

^^^ I have to agree...up here in Cleveland "white" friends are astounded that I would use the train for a mode of transportation.....and when I say that I actually use the bus...they really flip.  Unfortunately many people label the public transit as for lower income people only, and people not able to afford a car.  The 55 bus up here is a direct shot (5 minutes) from downtown to where I live (great for Browns games)...after one game I was returning home and while getting on the bus I heard on girl tell her friend that she "couldn't believe" that she was actually on a bus and they should have taken a cab.  Unfortunately that attitude seems to transcend to other major cities in Ohio.  We are lucky enough to have a train system here and people still act as if it is a social scorn to ride it.  Too bad people don't travel more to cities where it "makes sense" to use public transit....

I'm sorry but I can't simply allow the notion to continue that 'white people don't ride buses'.  It has nothing to do with race, but rather completely to do with availability and the options for someone.

 

Guess what I'm an affluent white person, and would LOVE to take the bus/any transit but since I don't have access to a route I have no option other than to drive or move (which I cannot afford right now).  Sure I may be the exception, but I'm certainly not the only person out there who would like to take transit but doesn't have that option.

 

For the other argument, black people are not the only ones who have economic problems!!!!  There are neighborhoods all over this city where white people, hispanic people, and others struggle financially.  Guess what check out a bus route that goes to Lower Price Hill and up into the western city 'hoods....you'll see plenty of white people.  Just as you will see plenty of white people on routes from the downtown - uptown.

All I was trying to say is that many people who don't use public transportation at all have a very negative opinion of busses.  Busses are stigmatized.  I personally ride the bus to school and walk back because it is downhill.  On the weekends, the bus is the best way to not get a DUI.

 

I spoke with my suburban father and he said it best himself.  He said he wouldn't get on a bus but a streetcar sounds pretty cool.

 

For cincinnati, it seems like the primary function of the streetcar will be to spur and focus development and secondarily function as a people mover.  This is okay.

Randy the point is that the vast majority of people riding the buses are not white. Price Hill is an exception but even downtown to uptown is almost entirely black; I ride it all the time, to know. Look at the people standing around government square for a good feel of who rides the bus. It's a stupid thing to argue about though. Im still standing by my assertion that most people do not ride buses unless they're forced to.

^Well most people don't sh!t unless they have to either....the point is RIDICULOUS.  Either way, the majority of the ridership in Cincy may very well be black, but it is still not a color thing...it has to do with economics!!!  Yes some people will ride a streetcar and not a bus for various reasons other than racial/crime perception reasons...it could be that there is a permanent line, a more reliable schedule, a more comfortable ride, and the nostalgia.  Regardless of why they ride...they ride it, and thats all that matters.

 

If the bus system were better run and offered more fixed/reliable routes; you would see increased/diversified ridership for buses.  Nonetheless the two are NOT interchangeable, and can/need to work together in a large transit network that looks at all transportation levels!!!

Every time I read your posts I read it in Samuel L Jackson's voice because there's so many exclamation points.

Regardless of why they ride...they ride it, and thats all that matters.

 

 

 

and thats the point

Every time I read your posts I read it in Samuel L Jackson's voice because there's so many exclamation points.

 

Duhh...why would you read it any other way motherf@cker!!!

Every time I read your posts I read it in Samuel L Jackson's voice because there's so many exclamation points.

 

OMG! .... That's hilarious .... "quotes" thread, anyone? "Quotes" thread?

Do streetcars have trouble moving in the snow?  Just curious.

Hardly anything stops the trains is Portland, though the buses often have trouble. Here's a press release issued during Portland's last month's big snowstorm there. You can see that the trains kept running: http://www.trimet.org/alerts/jan16snow.htm

 

MAX is the light rail, but it runs up and down hills, and so is most susceptible to snow and ice. I presume that because the streetcar runs on flatland, it's even less affected.

 

The MAX light rail was originally built without switch-warmers. In a bad storm a couple of years ago that closed the Portland airport for most of three days, some trains had trouble. Those problems have now been corrected. You can bet the opponents were all over that story, just as they're not talking about the problems Portland's buses have had this winter.

 

I understand the the LRT in Minneapolis has never been stopped by snow. And streetcars are everywhere in Northern Europe and Scandinavia. It's not a problem.

I brought this very point up with my family (who against my advice voted down light rail here)...everytime another story comes up, I make sure that they realize what the consequences of their actions are.  News headlines read 'Commutes taking hours longer'...yet we have no transit alternatives for this type of situation...so we sit in traffic like neanderthals and: burn gas, waste time, and increase chance for an accident (makes sense huh).

 

When is Cincy and America as a whole finally going to grasp the big picture....a transportation system will NEVER be suficient with only automobiles alone!!!  As obviously illustrated with yesterdays RIDICULOUS gridlock from a few inches of snow.

I brought this very point up with my family (who against my advice voted down light rail here)...everytime another story comes up, I make sure that they realize what the consequences of their actions are.  News headlines read 'Commutes taking hours longer'

 

Just curious....how does your family react whenever you bring this up?  Do they agree with you, or do they act like you're crazy?

^A little bit of both...just for some background:  Grew up on the westside (conservative strike 1), raised in a Roman Catholic household (conservative strike 2), and family has always lived in the 'burbs (strike 3...yer out)!

 

So, the rest of my family is all VERY conservative in their views...whereas I somehow managed to find the light!  So I am constantly rubbing salt in their wounds regarding misguided policies that they have supported and what not.  So, yeah sometimes they just let me rant...and nod their heads; other times we will get in full blown debates.

 

I think its made me a better person as a result, but it is certainly agonizing at times...however slowly but surely I think I am winning them over on some fronts (transit, immigration, social programs, regionalism).

^A little bit of both...just for some background:  Grew up on the westside (conservative strike 1), raised in a Roman Catholic household (conservative strike 2), and family has always lived in the 'burbs (strike 3...yer out)!

Nothing wrong with this...I grew up in the same type of household!  I am actually conservative on several issues, but I am a huge fan of urban living and mass transit. 

 

Anyways, I saw this posting on the Enquirer today by someone called "Light Rail."  Did someone here post this by any chance?  ;)

 

Just think if we had a light rail system that does not have to worry about the goofiness on our roads. DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT TRAFFIC IF YOU CANNOT COME UP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE. YOU VOTED AGAINST ANY KIND OF LIGHT RAIL SO SUCK IT UP CINCINNATI!!!

Everybody -- don't just talk to ourselves. Write letters to the papers, ask city council candidates this fall what their positions are. Forward some of these emails around.

 

This needs to get connected to a much wider audience. And if anyone wants to go to Portland next week, let me know. Twenty people going so far with several VIP's who have the ability to make the streetcar happen here. Saw a $226 fare online yesterday.

 

 

Well here is what I just sent into the Enquirer:

 

The recent snowstorm is another reminder that our transportation system is inept to deal with any kinds of problems.  Light rail and streetcars both operate under bad weather conditions, but this region continues to lack understanding of a true transportation system.  While we continue to sit in our cars for hours because of a few inches of snow; other communities are opting out and choosing transit instead.  I applaud the City of Cincinnati for progressing on their own system with or without the help of the rest of the county.

 

Hopefully it gets published...keep an eye out for me everyone in case it does.  I will be very excited!

Well put UncleRando. Sufficient amounts of snow will stop or slow any mode, but it doesn't take long to clear a streetcar or rail system as it does to plow an entire grid of city streets and highways. Interestingly, the biggest problem they'ev had in some streetcar-served cities is the big leaf drop in the Fall.  It actually causes the wheels to slip.  But the transit systems just send out a sweeper car and/or blowers to clear the tracks.

 

Even in the Blizzard of 78, Boston's famed PCC streetcars got temporarily stopped by snow, but they were up and running again long before many streets were even plowed.  Check out this photo I found from that blizzard.

 

Keep pushin' for those streetcars Cincy!!! Wish I had that option last night in Columbus during the three-hour gridlock downtown in the snow.

Here's streetcars in Toronto in the snow.... looks like they're moving nicely.

^ Funny you mention Toronto since I'll soon have an excuse to visit and had read about their extensive mas transit system which includes a bunch of streetcar routes. People forget so quickly that when you're soley dependent on cars it can be a huge pain in the ass, like when there's a blanket of slick snow & ice on the roads. Of course, one of the advantages of a subway is that you don't have to worry about snow or other road obstacles. Luckily for us we don't get that much snow, so our streetcars won't have to face x feet of snow.

 

Now, is it just me or is it perhaps absurd that Cincinnati & Columbus are/were looking into the feasibilty of streetcars when both had successful streetcar systems for decades (just look at those bustling sidewalks of bygone streetcar days) clearly demonstrating that yes, streetcars worked out very well.

Now, is it just me or is it perhaps absurd that Cincinnati & Columbus are/were looking into the feasibilty of streetcars when both had successful streetcar systems for decades (just look at those bustling sidewalks of bygone streetcar days) clearly demonstrating that yes, streetcars worked out very well.

 

Yes it is quite absurd...planners/citizens of today are trying to fix years of mistakes.  We are trying to reclaim urban renewal areas and return them to their original states...return streetcars to our cities, and implement mixed uses as an everyday norm.  Specifically for streetcars you can thank the American automakers for that one.  They were instrumental in the removal of almost all streetcar systems across the US.  Ahhh yes there were the gool ol' days...and the bad ol' days.  Its finally reaching a point where these mistakes are being fixed.  Thank goodness!

Every time I read your posts I read it in Samuel L Jackson's voice because there's so many exclamation points.

Really?

Everytime I see him post, I think of planesnakes!

 

XD XD XD

/anti-flame shield activated.

 

Anyways, back to topic.

I have to agree with Rando and Columbusite on this one.  People use the bus, despite what you hear or incorrectly assume.  It is all based on economics and service provided to certain areas (or lack thereof.)  The streetcar idea is just a simple form of alternative transportation that could serve a significant block of the community, mostly the uptowners/urbanists and the university crowd.  I'd at least like to see a test line implemented for about a year so the city can have a suitable trial run of the service.  And before I forget, that snowstorm should be more of a wakeup call to the city.  So many people stranded on the highways for hours and no other efficient way to get home... (-_-)yea...I'd be calling for some lightrail.

^

And before I forget, that snowstorm should be more of a wakeup call to the city.  So many people stranded on the highways for hours and no other efficient way to get home... (-_-)yea...I'd be calling for some lightrail.

 

Like I just mentioned earlier, those highways in our cities are the problem since as long as they are there they will be used. You can provide an alternative to cars, but that's only half of the equation. You also have to provide a reason for people to use something else and that means making our cities less car-friendly, not anti-car, just make car trips more useful for short trips or to less-travelled, more distant destinations like numerous small towns & our state parks.

I wanted to revisit this briefly:

 

Hardly anything stops the trains is Portland, though the buses often have trouble. Here's a press release issued during Portland's last month's big snowstorm there. You can see that the trains kept running: http://www.trimet.org/alerts/jan16snow.htm

 

MAX is the light rail, but it runs up and down hills, and so is most susceptible to snow and ice. I presume that because the streetcar runs on flatland, it's even less affected.

 

The MAX light rail was originally built without switch-warmers. In a bad storm a couple of years ago that closed the Portland airport for most of three days, some trains had trouble. Those problems have now been corrected. You can bet the opponents were all over that story, just as they're not talking about the problems Portland's buses have had this winter.

 

I understand the the LRT in Minneapolis has never been stopped by snow. And streetcars are everywhere in Northern Europe and Scandinavia. It's not a problem.

 

When I woke up today, the roads in DC were crap.  Cars were moving slowly.  Where bus routes run on secondary roads, they were detoured to their "emergency routes" (major roads only), and faced major delays.  The subway, on the other hand, was right on time, with normal rush hour service. 

 

While Metro is not light rail, per se, significant portions of the system are at-grade or elevated.  Metro was able to run de-icing trains all night to keep the tracks clear, and the third-rail from freezing over.  Piece of cake commute today.

Dan -

 

Did you find the Metro was more crowded today or the same as usual?  Also, was it well known throughout the city that the Metro was up and running in spite of the bad weather?  I'd be interested in knowing.

 

Thanks for sharing the info.

Here's an article from 1975 comparing (sort of) the Washington Metro and the Cincinnati subway.  I posted this link in another thread also. 

 

http://www.mecklenborg-photo.com/subway/subwayarticle-1975.jpg

 

BTW Dan, I think the Washington Metro station that sounds most like a mixed drink is "Fort Totten", followed someway distantly by the "Prince George". 

 

^Foggy bottom?

Dan -

 

Did you find the Metro was more crowded today or the same as usual?  Also, was it well known throughout the city that the Metro was up and running in spite of the bad weather?  I'd be interested in knowing.

 

Thanks for sharing the info.

 

The Metro wasn't any more crowded than usual today.  Everything was pretty much back to normal by this morning. 

 

Yesterday morning, it was actually a bit empty on the Metro.  That mostly had to do with 1) parents staying home with their kids, who were home from school and 2) the federal government opening 2 hours late.  I noted that the evening rush seemed pretty normal.

 

It was well-known that the Metro was running on-time, though.  I turned on Fox 5 as soon as I woke up yesterday, and their reporters kept reiterating that there were delays on the buses, but the rail system was running normally. 

 

City's pedestrian layout desirable for streetcars

Cincinnati Business Courier - February 16, 2007by Dan MonkSenior Staff Reporter

 

 

It's no longer a question of whether to build a streetcar, but where. The lead consultant for the city of Cincinnati's three-month-old rail study said there is little doubt that Cincinnati is a "good candidate" for a streetcar system.

 

"You've got a great downtown already, with a lot of important destinations that people want to reach," said Charles Hales, a Portland, Ore.-based consultant for HDR Inc.

It's no longer a question of whether to build a streetcar, but where. The lead consultant for the city of Cincinnati's three-month-old rail study said there is little doubt that Cincinnati is a "good candidate" for a streetcar system.

 

allright, lets start laying track. 

 

by the way, the streetcar would allow less parking to be needed at the banks, making the parking garages cheaper, which is what has stalled the project.

^ possibly if they decided to use fill in certain areas instead of parking structure.  one way or another theyve got to get out of the flood plain.  i hope the optimism shared by those involved with these initial studies will spread to the people who can make this happen. 

Mr. Hales of HDR is also the lead consultant on the Downtown Columbus Streetcar Plan.  I've met him and heard his presentation on how they developed the Portland, Oregon system.  If he ever comes to Cincy to speak, don't miss it.

 

Keep the pressure on for streetcars!

^ possibly if they decided to use fill in certain areas instead of parking structure.  one way or another theyve got to get out of the flood plain.  i hope the optimism shared by those involved with these initial studies will spread to the people who can make this happen.

 

That is only 1/2 of the parking situation...those garages that lift the development out of the flood plain will be controlled by Hamilton County, and the last I heard the majority of the spaces would be left open for events (Bengals, Reds, festivals, etc) and the shopping/retail portions of the development.  Thus meaning that the developer has to build its own garages above ground to supply parking for the residents that live there.  These garages have been shown as being in the middle of the buildings of each block.

 

Should this requirement for the developer be knocked down, then they can have more upfront money to start the project without all of the government funding for the other garages.  All in all, it would be a great accomplishment to be able to knock those requirements down and save the developer money, that they can in turn use to get the project going faster!

Mr. Hales of HDR is also the lead consultant on the Downtown Columbus Streetcar Plan.  I've met him and heard his presentation on how they developed the Portland, Oregon system.  If he ever comes to Cincy to speak, don't miss it.

 

Keep the pressure on for streetcars!

 

He'll be here again soon.

 

We just spent several days in Portland with 21 people including several Cincinnati public officials and two of Charlie's co-workers. My sense is, we really moved the ball down the field on this one.

 

Jim Tarbell thinks we need to do the next trip in May -- ahead of the councilmanic campaign season. It's nice there, then.

This sounds really good.  Let's keep it moving forward.  This article seemed pretty positive.  How has the local media been treating it?  In the Columbus thread, sounds like Channel 4 is doing a fairly slanted report this evening. 

^I personally think that the media in Cincy has been pretty good about this issue...pretty fair and balanced (which is extremely unnormal for Cincy media).

is there an approximate timeframe until we might see these streetcars?

 

also, will these actually be embedded in the street on a track, or will they just be circulator busses?

^The politicians and people working on the project are saying about 2-3 years before streetcars are running.  The reason being is no public vote is neccessary (no public dollars involved).

 

The tracks will be embedded into the street and be distinctive.  Eventually the idea is to time streetlights to with the streetcars, for more efficient use.

 

This has all been covered in much greater depth throughout the rest of this thread.

Anyone know anything about this?:

 

Wednesday, February 21, 2007

Strickland promises money for highways, streetcars

 

After introducing a $7.7 billion transportation and public safety budget today, Gov. Ted Strickland promised that planned highway projects will remain intact and that his administration will help find federal money for such local projects as bringing streetcars back to Cincinnati.

 

In his State of the City speech Tuesday, Mayor Mark Mallory proposed a streetcar feasibility study.

 

"We believe there are federal resources. . .that would be available for those services," Strickland said of bringing trolleys or light rail back to cities like Cincinnati and Columbus.

 

Strickland told a Statehouse news conference that alternative forms of transportation fit in with his administration's efforts to protect air quality. He said some of his new initiatives will be included in the state's operating budget, when it is introduced on March 15.

 

The governor said he'll be "as minimally disruptive as possible" to transportation projects already planned, although he's asked for a 90-day review starting July 1 of all new projects. "I’m unwilling to say that there will be no changes or no disruptions."

 

Although he's concerned about state government's current debt, Strickland said he's willing to increase state transportation department borrowing of up to 15 percent of its total budget, from a current level of 8 percent, in order to protect road projects planned or under way.

 

posted by Jon Craig at 2/21/2007 02:51:00 PM 

 

[Appeared in today's Cincinnati Enquirer blog]