I just got back from Bangkok and I know it is a much larger city, but they just finished 10 years ago and have added amenities a SkyTrain system "Elevated Rail".  They didn't get ridership numbers at first that they were looking for, but they added ramps direct into malls and hotels.  Ridership is 600k per day on the line currently and many stops you have to wait for the next train because they are so full.

 

I think the point is that people don't take it from one end to the other.  We never once did that.  Most of the rides are maybe 1-2 stops away, intermediate ones.  I think once the uptown route gets finalized, a lot of the trips won't be from one end to the other.  Rather more like, OTR housing to Uptown or OTR to downtown.  It is part of a larger, continuous system.

 

I have some good pictures I will try to post as well that shows the booming condo and hotel towers that line up directly along the SkyTrain.  From my hotel alone, I could see at least 6 new towers going up within a mile directly on the SkyTrain line. 

 

The other interesting part was that our tailor was saying how he has lived further out in the city for a long time, and when they announced expansion with a stop half a mile from his house, his housing value sky rocketed and developers bought up huge parcels of housing a long the line in his area for presumably more sky scrapers.  Transit is true around the world, if you build the infrastructure the market will react in a big way.  I think Mayor Cranley and all the other opponents from politicians to administration to citizens know this for the most part, but they will continually hang onto the fact "It runs a deficit" to still be against it. 

So then what's the road map forward toward a larger system given an unwilling mayor, county commission, OKI, state, and Metro who is 'bus only' at this point? Or do we just hang tight with the starter line until some point in the future when the political landscape changes. I see the benefits of the tunnel plan, I'm just looking for someone to put forth an actionable plan to get it off the drawing board.

 

Also the $52 million price tag included the Fountain Sq-Banks leg at the time so Uptown wasn't the entire cost.

 

I think we don't do anything unless a grant appears and/or the political winds change.  Also I forgot about the 2nd-5th St. stretch.  You are correct because there was an episode in 2011-2012 where council had to find the money to replace that lost section. 

 

 

 

I think the point is that people don't take it from one end to the other.  We never once did that.  Most of the rides are maybe 1-2 stops away, intermediate ones.

 

Yeah if you drive a cab or for Uber you will be shocked by how many people take incredibly short rides. People regularly take cabs from Fountain Square or even the new Renaissance Hotel to The Banks.  Residents at the Garfield Place apartments regularly take an Uber car to 12th & Vine.  These are rides when the sun is still out and often by able-bodied 25 year-old men, not just women in heals and fur coats. 

 

 

 

I think the point is that people don't take it from one end to the other.  We never once did that.  Most of the rides are maybe 1-2 stops away, intermediate ones.

 

Yeah if you drive a cab or for Uber you will be shocked by how many people take incredibly short rides. People regularly take cabs from Fountain Square or even the new Renaissance Hotel to The Banks.  Residents at the Garfield Place apartments regularly take an Uber car to 12th & Vine.  These are rides when the sun is still out and often by able-bodied 25 year-old men, not just women in heals and fur coats.

 

One of my coworkers is a marathon runner and the type of guy who spends several nights a week at the gym, but refuses to walk to one of our frequent lunch spots that's 0.2 miles (a 5 minute walk) away from the office.

 

I bet the following very short trips will be some of the most common trips on the streetcar:

 

* Fountain Square to The Banks

* The Banks to Fountain Square

* 12th & Main to 12th & Vine

* 12th & Vine to Washington Park

* Findlay Market to Rhinegeist

 

 

So then what's the road map forward toward a larger system given an unwilling mayor, county commission, OKI, state, and Metro who is 'bus only' at this point? Or do we just hang tight with the starter line until some point in the future when the political landscape changes. I see the benefits of the tunnel plan, I'm just looking for someone to put forth an actionable plan to get it off the drawing board.

 

Also the $52 million price tag included the Fountain Sq-Banks leg at the time so Uptown wasn't the entire cost.

 

This is a Metro system wide issue at this point. It's ridiculous to be considering the streetcar in a vacuum. Metro  should have an idea of what's valuable and what's not based on how it fits into the entire system.

 

Everyone interested in proposing uptown routes needs to read the book Human Transit by Jarrett Walker. Please don't stay away from it because you've heard the author is anti streetcar. He's not. He just realistically considers how they fit into the city wide transit network.

 

Improving our entire system is going to include all the non sexy things are huge changes nonetheless like improved bus stops, increased bus frequencies, transit centers outside of downtown, real time arrival data for your cell phone.

 

I still think my basic idea behind the Uptown Four ( http://goo.gl/awheu8 ) of going up Vine street and connecting to bus routes is a good, practical idea. At this point I think the biggest drawback to it is that many of the enhancements I envision for the Uptown Four bus lines should be extended to the whole bus system.

 

I think we can have light rail but we need to make Cincinnatians fall in love with transit first to support the huge investment over the decades it would take to build the system.

 

I'm out here in Portland right now and love it. Portland has a great streetcar but they are clearly taking an "all of the above" approach to transit.

 

I believe Portland had a light rail system before they started their streetcar system. 

 

I think most people agree that there needs to be a combination of streetcar, light rail, and busses to have a truly effective regional transit system.  I think a good model to follow would be San Francisco.  They have one heavy rail spine through the city, with branches out to various suburbs around the Bay, but the majority of intra-city travel is done by Muni which uses a combination of busses and streetcars to provide the 'micro' transit service.  We could even copy their cable car network for scaling some of the largest and steepest hills around, or just bring back the incline system.  I think Price Hill and Mt. Adams would benefit the most from bringing the inclines back. 

I believe Portland had a light rail system before they started their streetcar system. 

 

I think most people agree that there needs to be a combination of streetcar, light rail, and busses to have a truly effective regional transit system.  I think a good model to follow would be San Francisco.  They have one heavy rail spine through the city, with branches out to various suburbs around the Bay, but the majority of intra-city travel is done by Muni which uses a combination of busses and streetcars to provide the 'micro' transit service.  We could even copy their cable car network for scaling some of the largest and steepest hills around, or just bring back the incline system.  I think Price Hill and Mt. Adams would benefit the most from bringing the inclines back. 

 

I'd say San Francisco with some modification as San Fran has some issues.  One of San Fran's biggest problems is speed of the transit it has - trains frequently get delayed and backed up as well as busses.  BART needs a line along Geary Avenue - the buses there are so packed that it needs something better and Geary is really one of the main backbones of the city.

 

Finally if you think having SORTA and Tank is bad for regional transit, the Bay area has like 20 different agencies, all with different fare rates to get from one end of the bay to the other you could spend like $20 in transfers and what not.

The BART trains are frequently delayed because the four East Bay branches join together under Downtown Oakland and share tracks in the Transbay Tube and under San Francisco's financial district.  If one branch experiences a delay, then the inbound trains from the other branches have to wait.  There is some speculation that a second transbay tube will be built one day between Oakland and San Francisco, but BART's current priority is to extend south to San Jose and eventually create a full 100-mile loop around the bay. 

Finally if you think having SORTA and Tank is bad for regional transit, the Bay area has like 20 different agencies, all with different fare rates to get from one end of the bay to the other you could spend like $20 in transfers and what not.

 

Even Northeast Ohio is tough enough. These are just the inter-county transit routes....

 

Anyone know why it costs  $4 million a year to operate 3.6 miles of streetcar? If it doubles or triples in length is it $8 or $12 million a year?  A million a mile to operate it?

The BART trains are frequently delayed because the four East Bay branches join together under Downtown Oakland and share tracks in the Transbay Tube and under San Francisco's financial district.  If one branch experiences a delay, then the inbound trains from the other branches have to wait.  There is some speculation that a second transbay tube will be built one day between Oakland and San Francisco, but BART's current priority is to extend south to San Jose and eventually create a full 100-mile loop around the bay. 

 

Same problem happens on muni because like 4 lines converge into one tunnel under mission street.  At the very least locals get to use BART in the city with their muni pass.

Anyone know why it costs  $4 million a year to operate 3.6 miles of streetcar? If it doubles or triples in length is it $8 or $12 million a year?  A million a mile to operate it?

 

Not quite. It'll increase obviously, but some of the cost of operation will decrease on a "per mile of track" basis due to economies of scale. Train maintenance, track maintenance, line maintenance, heating and cooling the MOF, paying for a manager, etc. will all have a smaller and smaller increase with added lines.

Yes, since it is the starter line the costs will be higher on the margin.  The larger the system the less on the margin it will cost if headways stay the same.  Kind of like shipping product.  The heavier the product and more pallets it is on, the less it costs on the margin to ship because fixed costs become less of the total costs.

How much trouble could one get into with police for doing something like this?  I think it looks like a ton of fun!

https://youtu.be/rZNqHA6auA0

Not sure if you would get in trouble! But. I would wait until the tracks are done and they clear the pebbles that have collected in the rails over the months. Otherwise...  :wave: :-o

I would so do that.  Only thing is that Bratislava uses narrow gauge (1 meter) tracks, so do do something like that here you'd need a much wider palette. 

With streetcar work now in the heart of the CBD, I'm a little concerned with the placement of the 5th & Walnut stop as seen under construction in the photo below. This busy stretch of sidewalk looks to become extremely narrow...

Yeah except that's the last stop before the end of the line. 

It looks like a similar situation as the Findlay Market stop on Race Street. There isn't enough room for a bump-out stop, so instead the entire sidewalk is being raised. Not ideal, but it will be fine.

Yeah except that's the last stop before the end of the line.

 

I think this will be a busy stop with people transferring from Government Square to get to The Banks.

Yeah it won't be a big deal IMO.  It will get busy sure, but that is normal for thriving cities.  Just think when the population doubles in OTR and Downtown to 25-30k.  It will be a lot busier then.

Yeah it won't be a big deal IMO.  It will get busy sure, but that is normal for thriving cities.  Just think when the population doubles in OTR and Downtown to 25-30k.  It will be a lot busier then.

 

Does the guy with the duck call still sell Street Vibes at that corner?  If he's still there it will be the most annoying streetcar stop in the system. 

Does the guy with the duck call still sell Street Vibes at that corner?  If he's still there it will be the most annoying streetcar stop in the system. 

 

The heavyset while male ~50 years old that used to also dress with a clown nose?  He's mellowed out a bit and no longer goes to such theatrics.  Hopefully, he and others don't attempt to use the streetcar stops to harass people.

He has moved to the NE corner of 4th & Walnut.

Why couldn't the streetcar just stop at the Government Square shelter on Walnut? That would make the stop actually be at Fountain Square as opposed to across the street from it.

 

Also, the city just repaved the sidewalks on this block maybe a year ago, switching away from the pavers in favor of the pinkish concrete.  Really wish this work could have been coordinated.  Not only is the sidewalk impassable for pedestrians again, but think of the money that was wasted by digging up sidewalks that were literally just redone.

I really hope that the new colored concrete is the new style for all downtown sidewalks. The pavers look really dated.

 

Having the streetcar stop at Government Square Area D would mean that buses could no longer stop there. They would've had to find a place to relocate that bus stop.

Why couldn't the streetcar just stop at the Government Square shelter on Walnut? That would make the stop actually be at Fountain Square as opposed to across the street from it.

 

Also, the city just repaved the sidewalks on this block maybe a year ago, switching away from the pavers in favor of the pinkish concrete.  Really wish this work could have been coordinated.  Not only is the sidewalk impassable for pedestrians again, but think of the money that was wasted by digging up sidewalks that were literally just redone.

 

In order to have level boarding for the streetcar you need a 14 inch curb, but the buses' wheelchair ramps can't deploy if the curb is over 11 inches, so you can't co-locate the stops.

 

Kansas City is building its stops to have 11 inch curbs on the sides and 14 inch curbs in the center, meaning when the streetcar stops the center two boarding doors will be level with the platform and the outer two boarding doors will have a step.

 

It will be interesting to see how that system works compared to ours.

 

Note: (I could have these numbers wrong but the relatives heights is the important part)

Damn. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From today's Weekly Construction Update:

 

Streetcar T-Shirts Now Available!  Portion of Proceeds to Support Streetcar Operations

 

Looking for a way to support streetcar operations and look fashionable at the same time?  Cincinnati Streetcar logo t-shirts are now available! Shirts are heather charcoal, 50/50 cotton/poly blend, with the new Cincinnati Streetcar logo in light gray.  Men's and Ladies' sizes XS to XL are available for $20.00 (larger sizes also available at additional cost) through AllScreen.

 

$10 in proceeds from the sale of each shirt will be donated to support streetcar operations.  Visit the Cincinnati Streetcar website for more information.

 

City council got owned by the feds today. Told them to butt out of the hiring process for the running of the Streetcar..

Yea I understand the feds point on this one, but the city is valid too. They want full details, because its the city thats paying the full cost to operate, not the other counties and cities represented by the SORTA board.

City council got owned by the feds today. Told the to butt out of the hiring process for the running of the Streetcar..

 

And there's this Cranley quote. "...I believe the streetcar project is premised on an elitist point of view that it is somehow better than bus service," Cranley said. "I don't want SORTA creating a special class for riders or operators. I don't want streetcar operators subject to a different level of benefits. We intend to have the same type of person who operates our buses to operate our streetcars."

Yeah except that's the last stop before the end of the line.

 

I think this will be a busy stop with people transferring from Government Square to get to The Banks.

 

Are people going to jump on the street car from Gov't square to the banks? Or are you just saying it's going to be crowded as people are walking from one to the other?

^People likely will ride it that short of a distance. Average streetcar riders only ride between 1 to 2 stops in other cities. It's unlikely that'll be any different here.

Yeah except that's the last stop before the end of the line.

 

I think this will be a busy stop with people transferring from Government Square to get to The Banks.

 

Are people going to jump on the street car from Gov't square to the banks? Or are you just saying it's going to be crowded as people are walking from one to the other?

 

I think he's saying people might take a bus to Government Square and transfer to the streetcar to get to The Banks.  There will certainly be a lot of people hanging out at Fountain Square who walk to this stop to get to The Banks, too.

There were a couple new streetcar motions (and a statement) introduced to be heard in the Transportation Committee:

 

MOTION, dated 3/25/2015 submitted by Mayor John Cranley, Vice Mayor Mann, Councilmembers Seelbach and Young, WE MOVE that SORTA be directed to pursue only management contract proposals in response to their RFP, consistent with the draft MOU between ATU and SORTA (copy attached), for review and consent through the Streetcar budget approval process set forth in the Operations and Maintenance Intergovernmental Agreement.

 

MOTION, dated 3/24/2015 submitted by Mayor John Cranley, Councilmembers Amy Murray and Kevin Flynn, EXPRESSING the Mayor's intent to veto, and sufficient City Council support to sustain such veto, any streetcar operating plan that utilizes sources other than those identified in the Comprehensive Streetcar Operating Plan (Council item #201401368) and particularly any plan that uses General Fund resources other than the $1,500,000 in incremental parking meter revenue pledged by the Comprehensive Streetcar Operating Plan. BE IT RESOLVED by the Mayor and Council of the City of Cincinnati, State of Ohio: No additional resources will be appropriated toward the Operations and Maintenance of the Cincinnati Streetcar Project beyond the previously established Plan.

 

STATEMENT, submitted by Councilmembers Smitherman and Winburn, WE the undersigned will vote to support any veto that will prevent spending any City monies on the Cincinnati Streetcar.

^People likely will ride it that short of a distance. Average streetcar riders only ride between 1 to 2 stops in other cities. It's unlikely that'll be any different here.

 

I will never understand this.  Unless you're physically disabled, why the hell would anyone stand around waiting for a streetcar and then pay just to go 2-4 blocks? 

Not sure really. I enjoy walking so I would choose walking many times over riding the streetcar, but hey, if it increases ridership and makes people more happy it exists, let them be lazy. I'll ride it longer distances or when I don't feel like walking back from the riverfront to my place but for short distances I'd rather just walk.

I believe in Portland the streetcar is free within the basin (at least it was when I was there last).  SO if you are not paying, and you see that a streetcar is coming then it is understandable to hop on and off.  If other cities have similar plans, then I can see how it could skew the numbers. 

I believe in Portland the streetcar is free within the basin (at least it was when I was there last).  SO if you are not paying, and you see that a streetcar is coming then it is understandable to hop on and off.  If other cities have similar plans, then I can see how it could skew the numbers.

 

$2.50 gets you a 2.5 hour ticket good for bus, light rail, or streetcar.  Streetcar only is $1.

There were a couple new streetcar motions (and a statement) introduced to be heard in the Transportation Committee:

 

MOTION, dated 3/25/2015 submitted by Mayor John Cranley, Vice Mayor Mann, Councilmembers Seelbach and Young, WE MOVE that SORTA be directed to pursue only management contract proposals in response to their RFP, consistent with the draft MOU between ATU and SORTA (copy attached), for review and consent through the Streetcar budget approval process set forth in the Operations and Maintenance Intergovernmental Agreement.

 

MOTION, dated 3/24/2015 submitted by Mayor John Cranley, Councilmembers Amy Murray and Kevin Flynn, EXPRESSING the Mayor's intent to veto, and sufficient City Council support to sustain such veto, any streetcar operating plan that utilizes sources other than those identified in the Comprehensive Streetcar Operating Plan (Council item #201401368) and particularly any plan that uses General Fund resources other than the $1,500,000 in incremental parking meter revenue pledged by the Comprehensive Streetcar Operating Plan. BE IT RESOLVED by the Mayor and Council of the City of Cincinnati, State of Ohio: No additional resources will be appropriated toward the Operations and Maintenance of the Cincinnati Streetcar Project beyond the previously established Plan.

 

STATEMENT, submitted by Councilmembers Smitherman and Winburn, WE the undersigned will vote to support any veto that will prevent spending any City monies on the Cincinnati Streetcar.

 

Is that even legal?  There's a procurement process for a reason.

Bake's Place, a small breakfast/lunch spot in the Mercantile Center lobby and directly across from the 5th & Walnut streetcar stop, decided their tip cup message this week should be:

 

"Cincinnati's new strategy, let all the streets crumble so we are forced to ride the stupid streetcar!"

 

:box: I decided my ≈$45 a month for lunches there would be best spent elsewhere.

 

 

I hope you let them know.

^People likely will ride it that short of a distance. Average streetcar riders only ride between 1 to 2 stops in other cities. It's unlikely that'll be any different here.

 

I will never understand this.  Unless you're physically disabled, why the hell would anyone stand around waiting for a streetcar and then pay just to go 2-4 blocks? 

 

Ask an Uber driver such as jmecklenborg[/member]. People will take transit or Uber extremely short distances. Someone was telling me about their friend who lives at Garfield Place and won't even walk to the Gateway Quarter for dinner. That is a 3 minute walk according to Google Maps. I don't understand how people can live in a walkable neighborhood and refuse to walk such short distances... but it's reality.

Bake's Place, a small breakfast/lunch spot in the Mercantile Center lobby and directly across from the 5th & Walnut streetcar stop, decided their tip cup message this week should be:

 

"Cincinnati's new strategy, let all the streets crumble so we are forced to ride the stupid streetcar!"

 

:box: I decided my ≈$45 a month for lunches there would be best spent elsewhere.

 

I hope you let them know.

 

Let them know here: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=822168901185227&id=257767877625335

 

Edit: They've taken down the post. Please don't bug them about it anymore, I think they realized it was a mistake to post it in the first place.

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/inthenews/032415-seattle-streetcar-changes-impact-national-movement.aspx

 

Thought this article posted on soapbox was interesting. Traffic downtown isnt bad now, but what will it be like in 5 or 10 yrs. The way our streetcar weaves in and out of lanes could make it slower than Seatle's, unless we changed the roads the route is on to transit, pedestrians and bikes only of course ?.

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/inthenews/032415-seattle-streetcar-changes-impact-national-movement.aspx

 

Thought this article posted on soapbox was interesting. Traffic downtown isnt bad now, but what will it be like in 5 or 10 yrs. The way our streetcar weaves in and out of lanes could make it slower than Seatle's, unless we changed the roads the route is on to transit, pedestrians and bikes only of course ?.

 

The Seattle streetcar and ours have little in common.  Seattle built Phase 2 before they built Phase 1.  It travels through a low-density area like Queensgate, then abruptly terminates at the edge of DT Seattle.  It would be like having a line on W. 8th come to City Hall but no farther into Downtown. 

 

There are of course plans to extend the first Seattle line into DT Seattle and connect it with another line, but critics always ignore this. 

Just found this map I made about a year ago about how the streetcar could eventually get to Union Terminal:

 

 

So it would use the existing Walnut/Main pair in the CBD and hook into the existing track around Washington Park. This could really accelerate development in the West End and allow the Union Terminal parking lots to be developed.

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/inthenews/032415-seattle-streetcar-changes-impact-national-movement.aspx

 

Thought this article posted on soapbox was interesting. Traffic downtown isnt bad now, but what will it be like in 5 or 10 yrs. The way our streetcar weaves in and out of lanes could make it slower than Seatle's, unless we changed the roads the route is on to transit, pedestrians and bikes only of course ?.

 

The Seattle streetcar and ours have little in common.  Seattle built Phase 2 before they built Phase 1.  It travels through a low-density area like Queensgate, then abruptly terminates at the edge of DT Seattle.  It would be like having a line on W. 8th come to City Hall but no farther into Downtown. 

 

There are of course plans to extend the first Seattle line into DT Seattle and connect it with another line, but critics always ignore this. 

 

That's an apt comparison, Jake.

Oh I see, didn't realize theirs was so short.

 

Travis, I like that idea. It would help accelerate west end,  and I could see kids using it to get to Taft, as well as it being used to connect to light rail in the subway tunnels eventually.

Just found this map I made about a year ago about how the streetcar could eventually get to Union Terminal:

 

 

So it would use the existing Walnut/Main pair in the CBD and hook into the existing track around Washington Park. This could really accelerate development in the West End and allow the Union Terminal parking lots to be developed.

 

With Union Terminal about to spend a few hundred million dollars on a renovation, something like a streetcar extension to increase attendance would be a spectacular idea.

 

While I don't know much about Ezzard Charles Drive, I'd wager that any costs for utility relocation would be much lower than the costs on streets like Race and Elm. It could be an extremely cheap installation cost per mile.