http://m.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/03/31/murray-utility-costs-for-next-streetcar-phase.html

 

Murray reveals the costs for utility relocation on vine weren't hidden, and the vote on proposals is delayed.

Was there a reason for utility relocation in the first place? San Francisco seem to have been fine all these decades operating their street car. Dayton has an electric bus system that has been fine after all these decades without moving utilities.

http://m.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/03/31/murray-utility-costs-for-next-streetcar-phase.html

 

Murray reveals the costs for utility relocation on vine weren't hidden, and the vote on proposals is delayed.

 

From that article:

 

"Mayor John Cranley and Councilman Christopher Smitherman allege that the estimate was intentionally kept from the public. Cranley and Smitherman said the estimate shows that expanding the project will be too expensive."

 

 

This is exactly why we should be talking more about an alternative routing.  The "forest route" that people have been calling it.  Opponents are simply ignoring it and focusing on Vine Street because that's the most obvious (and possibly most expensive) option.

Most interesting part:

 

It also delayed a vote on a measure sponsored by Seelbach asking the administration for a report on how it could restart its planning for phase 1b. Bids were due this week, but SORTA declined to say how many it received.

 

If journalism were better in Cincy Cranley would be completely railroaded for his actions, he's so blatant and not very good at what he does.

City seems very confident that it will win the Duke Energy suit on appeal, in which case the burden of moving the utilities would fall on Duke.

 

Having said that, Vine is still a lousy alignment.

With every development on or near the alignment, Cranley and Smitherman lose credibility.  A lot's happening and more and more people know it.  I wonder if this is why Cranley's trying to insinuate himself in SORTA's selection process for hiring an operator?  Opponents don't have many more chances to sabotage Phase 1a.  Cranley staked his election on the streetcar's demise and it must be embarrassing for him to see so much enthusiasm and development, thanks in part to the streetcar, when it comes to repopulating our city.  I live in the CBD and my census tract's population increased 33% last time.  And there will be an increase again in 2020 because there's a lot going on around me. 

 

There are other options for extending the streetcar.  If the major players in Uptown don't want to get on board, why not take it in a different direction?  I'd really like to be able to take a streetcar to Rookwood, for example.  There's plenty of room for improvement in Walnut Hills that a streetcar could help spur.

Can someone explain why the forest route would be better than Vine Streets? Traffic is never an issue on the Vine Street Hill. It's not going to go much faster going through the woods when traffic never stops you on Vine. I'm just a little confused why everyone is against the Vine route when it seems like a perfectly fine alignment. No route is going to have the development potential on the hill that the basin has.

It's the backtracking two blocks south to go north that is the problem in my opinion.  It adds like 5-7 minutes every run. 

Can someone explain why the forest route would be better than Vine Streets? Traffic is never an issue on the Vine Street Hill. It's not going to go much faster going through the woods when traffic never stops you on Vine. I'm just a little confused why everyone is against the Vine route when it seems like a perfectly fine alignment. No route is going to have the development potential on the hill that the basin has.

 

I'll let others go into more detail but I think the idea is the forest route wouldn't use the stub outs that are in place today but instead proceed directly north from the top of the track. This would save people from having to double back going past the Findlay stop on Race southbound before heading up the hill. This saves time for people going Uptown.

 

What I would like to know, and maybe I never will if it's confidential for some reason, is the exact alignment of the underground utility that they say needs to be replaced. The engineer in me wants to know Why! And there some workaround even with using Vine St. Alignment? For example using the curb lanes instead of the middle 2 lanes. Building the tracks and street up higher where it crosses the line to provide more clearance.

 

I like the Mulberry stop in the Vine St configuration. There are some backstreets that could benefit in that area.  And someone could reopen Robert A's Curve Cafe!

It's the backtracking two blocks south to go north that is the problem in my opinion.  It adds like 5-7 minutes every run. 

 

^ Here's a good test to do some Sunday morning when there is little traffic.

 

Starting at Sixth and Main, drive the current streetcar route under construction including the backtracking at Findlay and then continue up Vine to Jefferson and Corry.

 

Next, starting again at Sixth and Main -- where the MetroPlus route begins -- drive the MetroPlus route to Jefferson and Corry.

 

When I did it, with no traffic, the extended streetcar route was six minutes longer -- right in the middle of the range AJ writes above. Then consider the friction that will be added when there's more traffic at busier times and when the area around Findlay gets repopulated, as it surely will. The delta will surely go to ten or more minutes.

 

Plus, constructability. Right now we're building one alignment of streetcar tracks on (mostly) one-way streets. Going up Vine, we'll be building two alignments of track on a two-way street, plus maybe moving Duke's facilities somewhere. Not easy. You're not going to eliminate parking on Vine, because there is hardly any off-street parking available there, not even much land to build it if you wanted to.

 

Vine Street will just gum up the whole system. Even in good weather. Throw in a little ice or a car crash, and it could be a real mess.

 

The other thing is rider comfort. Most people stand on a streetcar. Sometime, ride the 46 or 78 or MetroPlus both directions between OTR and UC -- standing up the entire time. You get jerked around a lot. I observe people on the Portland Streetcar as it travels down the hill from Portland State to the South Waterfront. More than other segments of that line, what appear to be regular on that part of the line users seem to always grab a seat if they can.

 

The forest route -- going up Clifton and through the woods pretty much eliminates the time penalty, although you are still travelling west to Elm before backtracking to the east to get to UC.

 

If we were to convert the downtown streetcar alignment to light rail as the spine of a regional system someday, going straight up Main and Walnut from 12th, tunneling under the face of Mt. Auburn and daylighting the tunnel behind Christ and then to Auburn Avenue to Corry to UC may be a better alternative.

 

If we were to convert the downtown streetcar alignment to light rail as the spine of a regional system someday

 

John - what would that entail? How are you defining the distinction between "light rail" and "streetcar"? Is it about dedicated right of way? Doesn't Portland's red line "light rail" share the right-of-way with cars in downtown, whereas the green/yellow lines have (mostly) dedicated right of way? I know the terms are bit murky, so I'm just curious what you mean when you say "convert the downtown streetcar alignment to light rail".

In Cincinnati's case, the track is already built to handle longer and heavier trains. I think by "converting to light rail", John means running longer trains on the tracks, upgrading the stations to handle the longer trains, and upgrading the overhead power system to a higher voltage to power them. Whether we choose to have a dedicated lane or shared lane is an implementation detail. I think Portland's system of having a shared lane for light rail and buses (but no cars) works great.

Basically in our case, it already is light rail. The tracks are light rail tracks and the trains are light rail trains yet operating in a streetcar fashion. If we expanded our network outside of Downtown with faster, longer trains (of the same make as our streetcar trains) they could use our tracks without issue except for the stops for the light rail needing to be expanded to fit longer trains.

Actually the yellow and green lines in Portland move all over the place as they go up and down Fifth and Sixth Avenues. You're not supposed to drive in the alignments reserved for the trains, but people do and I have. Cars and trucks seem to avoid the rail streets in Portland there and on Morrison and Yamhill where the lanes are dedicated.

 

This will be a political decision ultimately. If people start glomming on to the streetcar and see the potential for light rail on those alignments, I'd expect the light rail to gain priority and have priority. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Still a question for me is how many, if any, of the turns need to be rebuilt to handle longer trains. Again, not worth worrying about at this point.

Slightly misleading answer from the Enquirer... the poles are black, the catenary arm is silver.

 

Need to Know: What color will streetcar poles be?

 

This installment of Need to Know answers a reader's question about the aesthetics of the incoming streetcar.

Streetcars and light rail trains can use the same tracks, but they can't necessarily stop at the same stations due to the varying width of the vehicles and the height of their floors.  For example, the Portland MAX trains are 8'6" wide but their streetcars are 8'2" wide.  This means streetcars can theoretically use the MAX stations with a 2" gap between the platform and the car.  But this gap, especially if the platform heights are not the same, could mean the ADA ramp can't extend.  I'm not sure of the specificis there, but this is a widespread problem worldwide.  London is of course famous for the "Mind the Gap" warning. 

 

Here since we are starting fresh there is potential to use CAF's larger Urbos models as light rail in future phases, which presumably could be built to identical width and floor height specs.  But there is definitely the potential for use of shared trackage in just 1 mile of the whole system in Downtown to cause significant compromises and cost escalations elsewhere in a citywide system. 

 

Also, has anyone affirmed that Duke's power line absolutely, positively MUST be moved in order to construct streetcar tracks on the Vine St. hill?  We didn't hear about this at all back in 2008 when the city won the $50 million stage grant to extend the line to Corry St.  We only started hearing about it in 2013-14 courtesy of Chris Smitherman, who still gets giddy when he describes the electric line as "suspended in oil!". 

Cincy is buying CAF Urbos 3 tram vehicles. CAF makes an Urbos 5 and 7 which are much longer. All are considered LRV's.

 

We should stop trying to distinguish between light rail and streetcar here in the states, everywhere else they are trams.

Cincy is buying CAF Urbos 3 tram vehicles. CAF makes an Urbos 5 and 7 which are much longer. All are considered LRV's.

 

We should stop trying to distinguish between light rail and streetcar here in the states, everywhere else they are trams.

 

^ That's correct. I  probably wouldn't call them trams here. The opponents will conflate that to mean they're for carrying tramps.

 

That's better than "trolley" or "amusement ride" like get thrown around by opponents who have no real arguments.

It's the backtracking two blocks south to go north that is the problem in my opinion.  It adds like 5-7 minutes every run. 

 

^ Here's a good test to do some Sunday morning when there is little traffic.

 

Starting at Sixth and Main,

 

I guess I'm think of it as a resident in Northern OTR and not someone going uptown to downtown.

 

As a resident of northern OTR, the route up Vine makes way more sense because that one block of backtracking is a lot faster than going back down to Main and 12th.

 

Though the backtracking only happens when you are going North. When you're going South there is no backtracking so it isn't as much of an issue.

 

And doing a new line from 12th and Main would add a lot more new track, I believe.

I look at it this way. There's currently no fixed rail to connect the two neighborhoods, so there's nothing to compare that 5-7 extra minutes to. And in the whole scheme of things, the streetcar isn't necessarily about moving people in the fastest manner possible (even though moving quicker than walking is a huge advantage). People from Uptown going into the basin aren't going to care that their train will take a negligible amount of time more to get up the hill when they're done with a day of work or a night of partying. They'll just be happy it's there.

Cranley: Streetcar managers spent $200K on next phase without council permission

Chris Wetterich - Staff reporter and columnist - Cincinnati Business Courier

 

Mayor John Cranley accused leaders of the streetcar project of spending $200,000 planning phase 1b of the streetcar project last year without council authorization.

 

Cranley’s statement came during Thursday’s City Council meeting amidst another contentious discussion of the project.

 

The mayor’s comments followed a statement by Councilman Chris Seelbach that project leaders did not hide a Duke Energy estimate that it will cost $38 million to move utilities for phase 1b of the project, as Cranley told the Cincinnati Enquirer on Sunday.

 

Cont

lol Cranley goin yam on this.  Can't stop won't stop :shoot:

^ What a Drama Queen.  Somebody give him a tiara.

I like how the Business Courier article goes back to a year ago, with this quote:

 

"Meanwhile, Deatrick and his team are preparing estimates of what phase 1b will cost. That portion of the project would run from roughly Findlay Market, up Vine Street, to Corry Street, near the site of the Corryville Kroger.

 

If council approves, the streetcar team wants to be in a position to apply for funding for phase 1b from a pot of federal cash known as the TIGER program. TIGER funds are helping pay for phase 1a of the program. The deadline to do so is April 28 if the city wants to try to get TIGER funds this year.

 

But TIGER funds are not the only available federal source, said project manager Chris Eilerman. The city could ask for money through other federal transit programs."

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/03/04/streetcar-pause-costs-still-unknown.html?page=all

 

 

You mean to tell me John Cranley didn't know about this?  I think at this point, you can say he is "grabbing straws".

Does anybody know the status of the Dennison Hotel (716 Main St)? https://www.google.com/maps/@39.104355,-84.510423,3a,89.7y,55.66h,109.21t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sxoB_W-IlZ0dHVthVkPOuXg!2e0?hl=en-US

 

It was bought in August of 2013 by the same entity that owns the surface parking lots that surround the building. That has to be one of the biggest, unused buildings along the streetcar... can't be long before they renovate it, right?

At one point (2011), 3CDC and Model Group had a plan in place to renovate the Dennison... but nothing came of it. Anybody know why?

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/devnews/0301dennisonhotelbecomesironworks.aspx

It's the backtracking two blocks south to go north that is the problem in my opinion.  It adds like 5-7 minutes every run. 

 

^ Here's a good test to do some Sunday morning when there is little traffic.

 

Starting at Sixth and Main,

 

I guess I'm think of it as a resident in Northern OTR and not someone going uptown to downtown.

 

As a resident of northern OTR, the route up Vine makes way more sense because that one block of backtracking is a lot faster than going back down to Main and 12th.

 

Though the backtracking only happens when you are going North. When you're going South there is no backtracking so it isn't as much of an issue.

 

And doing a new line from 12th and Main would add a lot more new track, I believe.

 

OTOH, the east half of OTR and Pendleton probably have more redeveopment potential going forward than the west half does. I mean, in five years, the west side will be totally improved south of Liberty and much improved north of Liberty. And to the extent Cincinnatians use the streetcar for commuting to the office center @ Fifth and Main, Main/Walnut is a more direct connection between Uptown and Downtown. Also more direct for bus transfers via Government Square.

Cranley's pause cost 5x as much.  What's his point again?

Yes! This will definitely play out similarly in Cincinnati.  Spreading out parking during events is a HUGE bonus.

 

March 21:

 

 

 

 

March 27:

 

Does anybody know the status of the Dennison Hotel (716 Main St)? https://www.google.com/maps/@39.104355,-84.510423,3a,89.7y,55.66h,109.21t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sxoB_W-IlZ0dHVthVkPOuXg!2e0?hl=en-US

 

It was bought in August of 2013 by the same entity that owns the surface parking lots that surround the building. That has to be one of the biggest, unused buildings along the streetcar... can't be long before they renovate it, right?

 

The company who bought it is horrible.  They are Columbia Oldsmobile/the Joseph family and they are proud to own one of the largest parking lots in downtown.  They would probably try to demolish it if 3CDC hadn't made it historic before selling it.

They did try to demolish it. They applied for a demolition permit.

 

They're decent people (one is one of our clients) but they're absolutely awful property owners. Their lots are gigantic and are a massive hole in a section of Downtown that is seeing some serious reinvestment. I hate those lots with a passion.

They did try to demolish it. They applied for a demolition permit.

 

They're decent people (one is one of our clients) but they're absolutely awful property owners. Their lots are gigantic and are a massive hole in a section of Downtown that is seeing some serious reinvestment. I hate those lots with a passion.

 

When did they apply? I'm assuming it was rejected?

 

A lot of people talk about the streetcar's potential in OTR.  I actually have been saying for a few years the streetcars biggest impact will be Main Street in Downtown and the Main & Walnut corridors between 7th and Central Parkway.

 

 

It was awhile ago and I'm almost positive it was denied. Otherwise it would have been gone by now.

 

I agree, Main and Walnut in Downtown seems like the area that will see the most dense, TOD development.

They did try to demolish it. They applied for a demolition permit.

 

They're decent people (one is one of our clients) but they're absolutely awful property owners. Their lots are gigantic and are a massive hole in a section of Downtown that is seeing some serious reinvestment. I hate those lots with a passion.

 

When did they apply? I'm assuming it was rejected?

 

A lot of people talk about the streetcar's potential in OTR.  I actually have been saying for a few years the streetcars biggest impact will be Main Street in Downtown and the Main & Walnut corridors between 7th and Central Parkway.

 

 

 

There and North of Liberty. Main from 6th to Central Parkway and Walnut from Eight to 12th are pretty much dead zones after 5pm.

I sure hope we don't lose that "Olde Tymey Retail" feel on Main north of 5th:  The Spitzfaden Office Supply Shoppe, Hathaway Stamp Co., the (former site of) the Player Piano Shoppe, Ohio Book store, Ciancolo's (brown banana) grocery, Spatz's (unhealthy) health food store, the greasy spoon diners (we've already lost one)...and the list goes on.

 

Such a slice of time. I only wish there was a typewriter repair shoppe. Maybe they do that at Spitzfaden's.

^No buggy whip retail shoppe?

I sure hope we don't lose that "Olde Tymey Retail" feel on Main north of 5th:  The Spitzfaden Office Supply Shoppe, Hathaway Stamp Co., the (former site of) the Player Piano Shoppe, Ohio Book store, Ciancolo's (brown banana) grocery, Spatz's (unhealthy) health food store, the greasy spoon diners (we've already lost one)...and the list goes on.

 

Such a slice of time. I only wish there was a typewriter repair shoppe. Maybe they do that at Spitzfaden's.

 

Typewriter repair is at Reading/MLK

I believe Spatz's is closed.

They did try to demolish it. They applied for a demolition permit.

 

They're decent people (one is one of our clients) but they're absolutely awful property owners. Their lots are gigantic and are a massive hole in a section of Downtown that is seeing some serious reinvestment. I hate those lots with a passion.

 

When did they apply? I'm assuming it was rejected?

 

A lot of people talk about the streetcar's potential in OTR.  I actually have been saying for a few years the streetcars biggest impact will be Main Street in Downtown and the Main & Walnut corridors between 7th and Central Parkway.

 

 

 

There and North of Liberty. Main from 6th to Central Parkway and Walnut from Eight to 12th are pretty much dead zones after 5pm.

 

Downtown might have the largest growth by the numbers because of the potential for high rise construction, but I'm most excited about the Findlay Market area. Especially if the Uptown connector goes in I see it as becoming such a hub of activity. I see: The market spilling out into surrounding storefronts, new residents keeping stores open until 9 pm, and Findlay Playground on Vine becoming a centerpiece park for the area. Some diversity in building stock making things interesting, with the two distilleries up and operating (one on the Parkway and one in Apex building,) perhaps another brewer in the Metal Blast/Jackson Brewery complex. A strong core around the market sparking development in West End, Brighton, and up the hillsides. And really cool houses (funky architecture and/or tiny houses) on the hillsides.

Cianciolo's salad bar at lunch is legit though. And super cheap.

 

Downtown might have the largest growth by the numbers because of the potential for high rise construction, but I'm most excited about the Findlay Market area. Especially if the Uptown connector goes in I see it as becoming such a hub of activity. I see: The market spilling out into surrounding storefronts, new residents keeping stores open until 9 pm, and Findlay Playground on Vine becoming a centerpiece park for the area. Some diversity in building stock making things interesting, with the two distilleries up and operating (one on the Parkway and one in Apex building,) perhaps another brewer in the Metal Blast/Jackson Brewery complex. A strong core around the market sparking development in West End, Brighton, and up the hillsides. And really cool houses (funky architecture and/or tiny houses) on the hillsides.

 

Not to mention the fact that some people will live physically in the market, with apartments overlooking the square.  There already are a few there, but seeing that area fully redeveloped there will be more.  All they need to do is fix the parking crater just to the north.

Also, has anyone affirmed that Duke's power line absolutely, positively MUST be moved in order to construct streetcar tracks on the Vine St. hill?  We didn't hear about this at all back in 2008 when the city won the $50 million stage grant to extend the line to Corry St.  We only started hearing about it in 2013-14 courtesy of Chris Smitherman, who still gets giddy when he describes the electric line as "suspended in oil!". 

 

I still don't know exactly what that is, but according to Duke, the cost to relocate the Duke utilities on Vine Street is over $30 million. Smitherman released the following cost estimate recently. The cost estimate came from Duke and is dated 4-21-2014.

 

Raise overhead electric to accommodate streetcar power: $1.2 Million

Relocate underground gas: 2.86 million

Replace underground electric, and retire existing underground electric: $33.7 million

How sad is it that we have both underground AND overhead electric on some streets?  Talk about the worst of both worlds.  There's underground electric on Madison Road through most of Hyde Park, probably some sub-transmission line between the substation in Oakley and Walnut Hills, but there's still overhead primary and secondary distribution.  So all you get from that is one less set of wires on the poles, but now there's underground cables to maintain as well. 

Does anybody know the status of the Dennison Hotel (716 Main St)? https://www.google.com/maps/@39.104355,-84.510423,3a,89.7y,55.66h,109.21t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sxoB_W-IlZ0dHVthVkPOuXg!2e0?hl=en-US

 

It was bought in August of 2013 by the same entity that owns the surface parking lots that surround the building. That has to be one of the biggest, unused buildings along the streetcar... can't be long before they renovate it, right?

 

The company who bought it is horrible.  They are Columbia Oldsmobile/the Joseph family and they are proud to own one of the largest parking lots in downtown.  They would probably try to demolish it if 3CDC hadn't made it historic before selling it.

 

That stretch of Main Street has been an historic district for decades.

Page 4 of this PDF shows an east west connection from Union Terminal to Broadway Commons will cost $50 million. (2012 dollars)

 

http://www.oki.org/departments/transportation/pdf/2040plan/finalchapters/appendixE.pdf

Page 4 of this PDF shows an east west connection from Union Terminal to Broadway Commons will cost $50 million. (2012 dollars)

 

http://www.oki.org/departments/transportation/pdf/2040plan/finalchapters/appendixE.pdf

 

Look at how dumb so many of those projects are -- widen Harvey Ave.?  Really?  Make the hospitals pay for it if they're planning a giant expansion.  Widen Blue Rock from Hamilton to Blue Rock?  WHY?