A highly compromised route like Vine Street scares me because you never know how few people will use it.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't be used alot. Uptown is Cincinnati's greatest employer with all the hospitals and the university. In my mind it would seem realistic for proffesors/doctors who live in (future) wealthy places would take the street car from OTR and take the 5 minute ride up to uptown quite frequently.

 

Then simply students from UC who are looking to have fun/party would use the street car quite frequently as well in my opinion.

 

 

A highly compromised route like Vine Street scares me because you never know how few people will use it.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't be used alot. Uptown is Cincinnati's greatest employer with all the hospitals and the university. In my mind it would seem realistic for proffesors/doctors who live in (future) wealthy places would take the street car from OTR and take the 5 minute ride up to uptown quite frequently.

 

Then simply students from UC who are looking to have fun/party would use the street car quite frequently as well in my opinion.

 

 

 

You are confusing the objective -- serving Uptown, which is very important -- with the strategy of using Vine Street to achieve that objective.

I agree with Mr. Schneider.  The tunnel provides the quickest, most direct route and has the most room for higher density TOD in uptown.  It will also greatly accelerate, in my opinion, the redevelopment of OTR, especially Vine Street.  People would be willing to live 3-5 blocks away from the stop no problem.  People will walk and take the 10 minute ride to Christ Hospital / other Uptown institutions for work. 

 

If you spend time in Chicago which is really the only place I have spent any time in the USA where I saw how the mass transit system works (Bangkok Internationally), people walk quite a ways to get to the El and it is no issue at all.  Vine Street North of Liberty will take a long time to redevelop, and I think with an "express" route to uptown, many people who work in Uptown will want to live in the bustling urban basin and can truly live car free like folks do in Chicago.

 

I think with this piece, the only thing the city will need to add at some point to put in on par with a "mini-Chicago" in terms of living standards would be to add at some place along the route or close to it a sizeable amount of softball fields / soccer fields for league play for people who live in the core but don't own a car.  Once you get it on par with all of this, the main difference from Chicago and Cincinnati is size and diversity in terms of urban living.  You can have everything you get in Chicago in Cincinnati but at a lower price point and a smaller city.  Just my opinion.  The aesthetic and urban form is a bit different, but I think Cincinnati's built form is more attractive anyways.

If you spend time in Chicago which is really the only place I have spent any time in the USA where I saw how the mass transit system works (Bangkok Internationally), people walk quite a ways to get to the El and it is no issue at all.  Vine Street North of Liberty will take a long time to redevelop, and I think with an "express" route to uptown, many people who work in Uptown will want to live in the bustling urban basin and can truly live car free like folks do in Chicago.

 

I think with this piece, the only thing the city will need to add at some point to put in on par with a "mini-Chicago" in terms of living standards would be to add at some place along the route or close to it a sizeable amount of softball fields / soccer fields for league play for people who live in the core but don't own a car.  Once you get it on par with all of this, the main difference from Chicago and Cincinnati is size and diversity in terms of urban living.  You can have everything you get in Chicago in Cincinnati but at a lower price point and a smaller city.  Just my opinion.  The aesthetic and urban form is a bit different, but I think Cincinnati's built form is more attractive anyways.

 

There are other things that will need work, cultural activities (as in new stuff not old stuff like the symphony or ballet), general diversity of population (way more transplants) and a generally more positive attitude (at least in the part of Chicago you are referring to, there is a second Chicago that is much more like Cleveland), that is more welcoming towards outsiders (I never get asked the high school question).  Film lover culture is practically non-existant in Cincinnati, and other cultural interests like architecture aren't as well developed as they are in Chicago.  There also needs to be a realization of who Cincinnati is and what cities they should compare themselves to.  Too many Cincy people don't aim high enough on that and in general there is a culture that is accepting of mediocrity.  While there are parts of Chicago that are that way, the part of Chicago you are referring to isn't.

 

Cincinnati's built urban form is its greatest asset.  Other than the Loop which blows Cincy's CBD out of the water _ Cincinnati is a more attractive city and in its core at least a more compact city than Chicago is (though as I state over and over again, Cincy's infill is significantly worse than Chicago's).  Its amazing how much nicer it is to walk when the blocks are shorter, the streets narrower, and the low rise historic buildings are more attractive.  Even then, there need to be cultural changes, people in OTR still drive from Main Street to Washington Park - which is absolutely absurd coming from someone who lives in Chicago - that's like 1 and 1/2 Chicago block in some neighborhoods - its barely any distance at all!

 

Massive cultural changes including an interest in transit need to take place before the world that you describe happens. Cincy is closer to it than ever before though and that's something I frankly never thought I'd see - I'm cheering for it but there still is kind of a deer in headlights view among people in Cincy towards urban living - its very new and they are kind of having growing pains adjusting to it.

It has become quite clear that Phase 1 will be up and running for several years (at least) before Phase 2 is built. In a way, that's a good thing. People in the Cincinnati area who are interested in living a car-free lifestyle, and transplants from other cities who are already familiar with using transit, will flock to the streetcar route. While many Cincinnati neighborhoods are undergoing revitalization, the blocks around the streetcar route will grow at an even faster pace. It will become increasingly clear that the streetcar is a major development accelerator.

 

As for the routing, I can actually envision a future where both the Vine Street streetcar route and a light rail tunnel north of Main are built. The "light rail" route would use the Main/Walnut tracks in the CBD, extend north through a tunnel to serve UC and eventually other neighborhoods to the north and east. The "streetcar" route would use the existing tracks, travel up Vine, and perhaps turn east to serve Walnut Hills.

^ Not realistic to think Cincinnati will be able to build two rail lines a few blocks apart from each other.

^ Not realistic to think Cincinnati will be able to build two rail lines a few blocks apart from each other.

 

Not yet anyway. Portland's got the northbound yellow & green MAX lines just 4 blocks away from the Portland Streetcar's A and NS loops. But it took many many years for that to happen.

Yes, if we were only Portland

They still need to install the bottom decals on the doors, but these cars are looking sharp. I also don't think the general public really understands the size and capacity of these vehicles.

 

Also love the use of the yellow on the interiors.

^ They will soon.

I think that's the first interior shot I've seen so far.  WOW!!!

I think the fact that there are "duplicate" tracks a few a few blocks apart is just an implementation detail that most people won't care about as long as it accomplishes something. For example, in order to build the tunnel at the north end of Main Street, you'd need to build a couple blocks of track on Walnut and Main in OTR that would be only a few blocks away from the tracks on Elm and Race. But it's worth doing because then it opens up possibilities to quickly reach UC and eventually other neighborhoods.

 

Just threw this concept together quickly:

 

 

The red line is the existing "Phase 1" streetcar route with an extension up Vine and then turning east to Walnut Hills on McMillan. Some Walnut Hills residents might use this route to get downtown, but it will probably be used by just as many Walnut Hills residents to get to UC or other Uptown destinations, or to get off near UC to transfer to the green line to travel north.

 

The green line is John Schneider's proposed route. It would use the existing streetcar tracks in the CBD but continue north on Main/Walnut and enter a tunnel to head north.

 

The blue line is another possible extension of the system. The existing streetcar track in OTR on Elm/Race would be used, but extended south into the CBD. To the north, the route would travel on McMillan to the west, and then enter the subway tunnel and head north to head to Northside. From there it could split off and have routes following I-75 and I-74.

How viable are those unfinished subway tunnels? Would it make any financial sense to perhaps renovate the tunnels, and complete the intended project, and from there add a new line and connect uptown that way?

 

If I make any sense...It might be a more "costlier" project ultimately, but you achieve more through the process if you get my line of thinking.

The subway tunnels can be reused but the stations would have to be completely rebuilt. The existing tunnel also doesn't help us get uptown. It would be a great way to get between Northside and Downtown/OTR though.

How viable are those unfinished subway tunnels? Would it make any financial sense to perhaps renovate the tunnels, and complete the intended project, and from there add a new line and connect uptown that way?

 

If I make any sense...It might be a more "costlier" project ultimately, but you achieve more through the process if you get my line of thinking.

 

In my opinion, utilizing the existing tunnels is the surest way to jumpstart light rail in Cincinnati.  They're already been estimated at around $50M, which qualifies for a federal match of the same amount.  Even though any business class will tell you to ignore sunk costs, it is easier to sell a system when you're already invested (as evidenced by Cranley's failure to kill the streetcar in 2013).  Of the routes above, I like the idea of building John's tunnel, along with the existing tunnels. 

How viable are those unfinished subway tunnels?

 

IMHO, they have no viability unless light rail is built to serve the I-74 corridor or the traditional Westside via a new Western Hills Viaduct. Pretty sure I'll never live to see that.

I think utilizing the subway tunnels would have a huge psychological impact on the traditional conservative Cincinnatian. Many of the people who think the streetcar is a yuppie toy would have no problem supporting a subway system, even though it would consist of the same track and vehicles as the streetcar (they would fit, wouldn't they?). People are somewhat nostalgic about the subway tunnels, and I think using them would play off that emotional aspect. It would take what many people consider to be an embarrassment and a sign that Cincinnati isn’t a “real city” and turn it into an asset.  I think focusing on the subway would benefit any potential transit tax.

 

I’m a fan of using the tunnels as is until just north of the Western Hills Viaduct. From there, a short extension under I-75 that surfaces on Colerain Avenue and runs as a streetcar through Camp Washington. From there, it could either meet up with I-75 near I-74 and run as light rail to the suburbs, or take a route through Northside. There is a lot of room for redevelopment in Camp Washington, and even in areas along Central Parkway that are currently low density. On the downtown end, I’ve never looked into exactly how the grades work out, but the line could potentially surface in the median of Central Parkway just after the Race Street station, and meet up with the Phase 1 streetcar loop (more so for operations rather than actually running a single route on both lines).

 

A couple of things. First, full-on light rail trains will definitely fit in the tunnels and be able to negotiate all the turns, no problem. But we don't have the density - yet - to justify the cost of retrofitting the tunnels for ADA -- new platforms and elevators -- and ventilating them to modern standards. Plus the cost of maintaining an underground system, which is much more expensive than surface-running. And less secure for customers. Our subway was built when we were a much different city. Streetcars and autos were then competing for the ROW, and so going under Central Parkway made more sense. It's so empty today that we've been able to install a bike lane on it. Also the subway was designed to meet up with interurbans that no longer exist. And the workforce was then concentrated along the subway and its above-grade sections in the Mill Creek Valley and in Norwood. That's not coming back anytime soon. I'd let it go.

 

The Mt. Auburn Tunnel is an effective solution for fast travel between two congested areas. Think of it as a bridge, not a subway.

I think utilizing the subway tunnels would have a huge psychological impact on the traditional conservative Cincinnatian. Many of the people who think the streetcar is a yuppie toy would have no problem supporting a subway system, even though it would consist of the same track and vehicles as the streetcar (they would fit, wouldn't they?). People are somewhat nostalgic about the subway tunnels, and I think using them would play off that emotional aspect. It would take what many people consider to be an embarrassment and a sign that Cincinnati isn’t a “real city” and turn it into an asset.  I think focusing on the subway would benefit any potential transit tax.

 

That's what I was thinking, but this is much better said.  It would be great if Cincinnati State were served by this line as well.  I haven't factored in all of the points John made, and he's definitely the authority on the subject.  But I do like the idea of repurposing those tunnels, realistic or not.

^ No, Jake is the authority.

How much different would the costs be, revitalizing the old subway tunnels and extending them, compared to the current concept of building a new tunnel under mt. auburn

^ The existing tunnels don't go to Uptown

what about where the subway ends near central and marshall being burrowed under the hill gradually up to mlk then running to the new interchange area. surely traffic from the hospitals, campus and gaslight would be enough to justify redeveloping tunnels then youre only a stones throw from another lining merging in from northside and camp washington.

 

As a northsider I'm partial to routes coming near here btw :) I really need to change my screenname I guess haha

 

1.

It has become quite clear that Phase 1 will be up and running for several years (at least) before Phase 2 is built.

 

An intriguing thought I had: My Cinculators concept  https://cincinnatiideas.wordpress.com/cinculators/ could be partially tested/implemented with only the first phase of the streetcar line in place.  All that would be required is for the Uptown bus circulator lines to come down the Vine Street hill to form a connection point at the Race Street Findlay Market streetcar stop. 

 

2. When we think about transit routing I think it’s a good idea to think in terms of nodes that are being connected.  To attract ridership, preferably you would want to connect strong nodes high in either population or economic activity, with the shortest route possible (straight line) at the highest speed possible.  Preferably the nodes would be highly walkable areas.  Then ideally you would also have some underdeveloped areas on the line, where you can take credit for the ROI as they develop, because they benefit from the connection to the strong nodes. 

 

That's what John's Mt. Auburn tunnel plan does so well- connects Downtown and Uptown, the two economically strongest, most walkable nodes in our metro region- with a straight line that also affords transit vehicles the chance to pick up some speed in the tunnel.

 

While finally using the old subway tunnels for a westward-bound light rail line is a romantic and satisfying notion, the physical layout of our city is different from when they were constructed.  I question whether this route can connect enough valuable nodes to be worth the expense.  There's not much left of Fairmount.  Westwood and Price Hill would be difficult to access.  West side neighborhoods along the I-74 corridor are neither dense nor walkable.  Northside and Cincinnati State are great destinations, but it's a legitimate question whether they  should anchor our first light rail line, especially considering the expense of reactivating the tunnels. 

 

An aside: thinking of how the subway was constructed out of the old canal.  If light rail were ever to come to the Wasson Way line, would it be possible to dig up the right of way and drop in a tube such that light rail is underground for portions of the line?  Thinking specifically for all of the grade crossings between Madison and Paxton that could be avoided. Then the bike trail on the surface could be twice as wide too.   

An aside: thinking of how the subway was constructed out of the old canal.  If light rail were ever to come to the Wasson Way line, would it be possible to dig up the right of way and drop in a tube such that light rail is underground for portions of the line?  Thinking specifically for all of the grade crossings between Madison and Paxton that could be avoided. Then the bike trail on the surface could be twice as wide too.   

 

Yes... as long as we properly zone the Wasson Way land and don't hastily re-zone it as a park, which would make any future transit along that corridor very difficult or impossible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but say we build this tunnel in Mt. Auburn. We would need a completely new set of trains for the uptown correct? If I understand correctly the current street car vehicles aren't particularly fast compared to a light rail train...

what about where the subway ends near central and marshall being burrowed under the hill gradually up to mlk then running to the new interchange area. surely traffic from the hospitals, campus and gaslight would be enough to justify redeveloping tunnels then youre only a stones throw from another lining merging in from northside and camp washington.

 

As a northsider I'm partial to routes coming near here btw :) I really need to change my screenname I guess haha

 

 

That exact concept was outlined by OKI in the late 70s...a bored extension of the existing tunnel from Straight Street, curving to the northeast, and surfacing in Burnett Woods opposite of UC's library.  At that time MLK hadn't been built so there was potential to integrate a light rail line into the future MLK Drive as it was eventually completed to Walnut Hills.

 

Also love the use of the yellow on the interiors.

 

This all low-floor design is a huge improvement over the hi/low Skoda streetcars in Portland and elsewhere.  A silver lining to the 5+ year delay is that we got low-floor cars right when they became available. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but say we build this tunnel in Mt. Auburn. We would need a completely new set of trains for the uptown correct? If I understand correctly the current street car vehicles aren't particularly fast compared to a light rail train...

 

The current streetcars would be fine. I think they can safely go 40 or 45 MPH in a tunnel (although they will obey the speed limit on city streets, so they won't go that fast). However in the future we could buy longer and faster vehicles.

 

After 10 years of publicity about the proposed "streetcar," I wonder if it will acquire another name: light rail, tram, rapid transit, or even red line, etc.

 

To me, "Streetcar" brings up an image of a PCC car, definitely not the vehicle in the photo.

 

After 10 years of publicity about the proposed "streetcar," I wonder if it will acquire another name: light rail, tram, rapid transit, or even red line, etc.

 

To me, "Streetcar" brings up an image of a PCC car, definitely not the vehicle in the photo.

 

Nope. Cincinnati Streetcar is the official name and the official vehicle type. The conversation on naming it something else happened about a year and a half ago. It was decided that Cincinnati Streetcar has the most name recognition and is the easiest to understand. Tram is the only other term that fits the system type, by that's a more European nomenclature. This is what streetcars in the US look like today.

In the U.S. I'd say most people think of a large amusement park tram with rubber tires when they hear "tram".

 

To me, "Streetcar" brings up an image of a PCC car, definitely not the vehicle in the photo.

 

... for ten more days until the first of these babies gets unloaded off the truck on Race Street

 

Nope. Cincinnati Streetcar is the official name and the official vehicle type.

 

The official name and the popular name might be two different things.  For example, the Daniel Carter Beard Bridge is popularly called the Big Mac Bridge, probably because a former traffic news reporter called it that. I hear people calling it "The Streetcar" without "Cincinnati."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope. Cincinnati Streetcar is the official name and the official vehicle type.

 

The official name and the popular name might be two different things.  For example, the Daniel Carter Beard Bridge is popularly called the Big Mac Bridge, probably because a former traffic news reporter called it that. I hear people calling it "The Streetcar" without "Cincinnati."

 

That's exactly the point. See sentence three of my post. The streetcar is know locally as the streetcar, so it was decided to call it a streetcar officially by naming it "Cincinnati Streetcar."  Calling it a tram, light rail, red line, whatever would be meaningless.

Some recent updates to the streetcar line...

^ There are SO many ways you could anthropomorphize that stencil.

That stencil seems unnecessary.  Could anyone be unsure of what the tracks are for?

My first thought was that those tracks are obviously for a freight train...

 

That stencil seems unnecessary.  Could anyone be unsure of what the tracks are for?

 

Suburbanites from West Chester only know Cars..Cars, and well parking lots the size of Texas. Many of them have probably never seen a street car, nor even know what public transportation looks like that isn't a Bus. So, yeah, I could see how that uncertainty might happen.

I kind of dig it. More importantly, what's 223+32. Yeah, I know 255 but what does it MEAN...

That stencil seems unnecessary.  Could anyone be unsure of what the tracks are for?

 

Those stencils are only going on the parts of that track that are transit-only lanes. I hope they add the word "only" below the streetcar to clarify that.

That stencil seems unnecessary.  Could anyone be unsure of what the tracks are for?

 

Those stencils are only going on the parts of that track that are transit-only lanes. I hope they add the word "only" below the streetcar to clarify that.

 

Meaning you can't drive in that lane at any time what so ever? If so, yeah that would probably be help to add the word "only"

^Yeah. There are the handful of spots where the streetcar runs in a lane only meant for the streetcar. Like on Central Parkway before turning south onto Walnut or on 2nd where it stops and then will have to cut across traffic to get to Main.

Refers to the page and section of where the pole is in the drawings I think.

That stencil seems unnecessary.  Could anyone be unsure of what the tracks are for?

 

Those stencils are only going on the parts of that track that are transit-only lanes. I hope they add the word "only" below the streetcar to clarify that.

 

Meaning you can't drive in that lane at any time what so ever? If so, yeah that would probably be help to add the word "only"

 

Yes, there are handful of places where the streetcar gets its own lane. Race south of the MOF (including the Findlay Market stop), Central Parkway at Walnut, Main and Walnut bridges over FWW, 2nd Street (including The Banks stop), and 1 block of Main through Gov't Square.

^ This is just a start. If there is friction in places along the alignment and we can demonstrate good and growing ridership, we can ask for more dedicated lanes

That stencil seems unnecessary.  Could anyone be unsure of what the tracks are for?

 

Those stencils are only going on the parts of that track that are transit-only lanes. I hope they add the word "only" below the streetcar to clarify that.

 

Meaning you can't drive in that lane at any time what so ever? If so, yeah that would probably be help to add the word "only"

 

Yes, there are handful of places where the streetcar gets its own lane. Race south of the MOF (including the Findlay Market stop), Central Parkway at Walnut, Main and Walnut bridges over FWW, 2nd Street (including The Banks stop), and 1 block of Main through Gov't Square.

 

Hell, if they're already doing that, they should just go ahead and dedicate the streetcar lane on Main St. from FWW all the way to the jog-over just north of Government Square (where it switches from the right side of the road to the left side.)

I agree that adding "ONLY" would help, plus some white diagonal striping too. 

That stencil seems unnecessary.  Could anyone be unsure of what the tracks are for?

 

Those stencils are only going on the parts of that track that are transit-only lanes. I hope they add the word "only" below the streetcar to clarify that.

 

Meaning you can't drive in that lane at any time what so ever? If so, yeah that would probably be help to add the word "only"

 

Yes, there are handful of places where the streetcar gets its own lane. Race south of the MOF (including the Findlay Market stop), Central Parkway at Walnut, Main and Walnut bridges over FWW, 2nd Street (including The Banks stop), and 1 block of Main through Gov't Square.

 

I think the block through main is 'transit only'