There really needs to be a concentrated campaign to overcome this inertia.

 

It's something that's going to be important to fully utilizing the streetcar...

Oktoberfest used to include the lot where the Dunhumby building is now as well as P&G's imperial gardens.  If the federal government would unlock the gate into the absolutely never-used courtyard south of Government Square there would be more space. 

Wasn't that kind of the point of the riverfront park...?

 

Hopefully people could push for it to move there enough for them to actually consider it. It would just make so much more sense from both a logistics standpoint and an enjoyment standpoint. The events on 5th are way too crowded and bottlenecked to be fun.

 

I purposely avoid Oktoberfest anymore because of the claustrophobic effect that 5th has.  For the life of me I cant imagine why Parks doesn't want to showcase Smale.  Vandalism?  Wear and tear?  The business end of the event would be along Freedom and Mehring anyway.

And I hate to be the one to point this out, but it's also prime grounds for a potential terrorist attack similar to that of Paris. You essentially have thousands upon thousands of people in a tight crowded space, essentially packed like sardines.

 

Granted you could say that about any big event, but Octoberfest, like mentioned above, is claustrophobic and these tight streets cause so much bottle-necking, that in case  a catastrophe does happen, you really have no where to run.

And I hate to be the one to point this out, but it's also prime grounds for a potential terrorist attack similar to that of Paris. You essentially have thousands upon thousands of people in a tight crowded space, essentially packed like sardines.

 

Granted you could say that about any big event, but Octoberfest, like mentioned above, is claustrophobic and these tight streets cause so much bottle-necking, that in case  a catastrophe does happen, you really have no where to run.

 

Cincinnati isn't a big or high enough profile place for an attack.  New York, DC or San Francisco are much more vulnerable.

And I hate to be the one to point this out, but it's also prime grounds for a potential terrorist attack similar to that of Paris. You essentially have thousands upon thousands of people in a tight crowded space, essentially packed like sardines.

 

Granted you could say that about any big event, but Octoberfest, like mentioned above, is claustrophobic and these tight streets cause so much bottle-necking, that in case  a catastrophe does happen, you really have no where to run.

 

Cincinnati isn't a big or high enough profile place for an attack.  New York, DC or San Francisco are much more vulnerable.

 

I honestly would disagree. Attacking a high profile city where security alert is already at it's brim,  or do you present a Trojan Horse, and attack a mid size city that no one would expect (like a Cincinnati/Portland/St.Louis/Cleveland, etc).

 

Isis isn't stupid. They realize that everyone expects them to attack a Large city, like a New York City, or a Chicago, or a Seatttle...But a smaller city? Where you wouldn't really expect that? To me that would be prime picking grounds. A city that was completely off everyone's radar, but still manage to commit mass casualties.

Oktoberfest used to include the lot where the Dunhumby building is now as well as P&G's imperial gardens.  If the federal government would unlock the gate into the absolutely never-used courtyard south of Government Square there would be more space.

 

That courtyard has been used the past few years during Taste/Oktoberfest for government employees and their friends/family. Granted I've only seen a few dozen people in there at any one time.

And I hate to be the one to point this out, but it's also prime grounds for a potential terrorist attack similar to that of Paris. You essentially have thousands upon thousands of people in a tight crowded space, essentially packed like sardines.

 

Granted you could say that about any big event, but Octoberfest, like mentioned above, is claustrophobic and these tight streets cause so much bottle-necking, that in case  a catastrophe does happen, you really have no where to run.

 

Cincinnati isn't a big or high enough profile place for an attack.  New York, DC or San Francisco are much more vulnerable.

 

I honestly would disagree. Attacking a high profile city where security alert is already at it's brim,  or do you present a Trojan Horse, and attack a mid size city that no one would expect (like a Cincinnati/Portland/St.Louis/Cleveland, etc).

 

Isis isn't stupid. They realize that everyone expects them to attack a Large city, like a New York City, or a Chicago, or a Seatttle...But a smaller city? Where you wouldn't really expect that? To me that would be prime picking grounds. A city that was completely off everyone's radar, but still manage to commit mass casualties.

 

And yet they attacked Paris, even shortly after the Hedo attacks, when Paris was already on higher alert (and Paris is about as high profile a place as they come) check.

 

Also linking this, we cannot live in constant fear, there is a higher statistical chance of being killed by lightening in a thunderstorm, or way higher for getting in an automobile accident than getting killed by Terrorists: http://www.decodedc.com/105/

And I hate to be the one to point this out, but it's also prime grounds for a potential terrorist attack similar to that of Paris. You essentially have thousands upon thousands of people in a tight crowded space, essentially packed like sardines.

 

Granted you could say that about any big event, but Octoberfest, like mentioned above, is claustrophobic and these tight streets cause so much bottle-necking, that in case  a catastrophe does happen, you really have no where to run.

 

Cincinnati isn't a big or high enough profile place for an attack.  New York, DC or San Francisco are much more vulnerable.

 

I honestly would disagree. Attacking a high profile city where security alert is already at it's brim,  or do you present a Trojan Horse, and attack a mid size city that no one would expect (like a Cincinnati/Portland/St.Louis/Cleveland, etc).

 

Isis isn't stupid. They realize that everyone expects them to attack a Large city, like a New York City, or a Chicago, or a Seatttle...But a smaller city? Where you wouldn't really expect that? To me that would be prime picking grounds. A city that was completely off everyone's radar, but still manage to commit mass casualties.

 

And yet they attacked Paris, even shortly after the Hedo attacks, when Paris was already on higher alert (and Paris is about as high profile a place as they come) check.

 

Also linking this, we cannot live in constant fear, there is a higher statistical chance of being killed by lightening in a thunderstorm, or way higher for getting in an automobile accident than getting killed by Terrorists: http://www.decodedc.com/105/

 

 

They attacked Paris for quite a few reasons besides it being a "major" city. There's been bad blood between Isis and France for a quite a while, and it has only be escalating till this recent tipping point. It's pretty clear Isis goal is to do more of the same across the country.

 

That said, I just feel like if I was the leader of Isis whose goal was to coordinate these attacks, I would be idiotic to focus on a major city, when you can achieve just as much damage if not more in a smaller unsuspecting city. The only thing Isis cares about is body counts, and you can achieve more body count where you expect it the least (and have your guard down more or less)

 

 

While the attacks on Paris are tragic. They are also not an appropriate topic for this thread.

 

Thanks.

The streetcar colors look like they came from Smoothie King. 

Did something (maybe on WLW?) prompt all the talk about the colors today?

^ Just yesterday my dad said he heard the streetcars were all "Cleveland Browns" orange. I insisted they were Tennessee Vols orange. I wouldn't put it past WLW being the source of this.

Oh how I dream of a world where sports rivalries didn't dominate every part of American culture in some way. This talk of them being Steelers colors is silly, even if it was the same color, which it's not..

Various people are suggesting that it should've been Bengals orange instead. Jeez, how "small town" can we be?

I don't know who took the photo on the right (hopefully they don't mind me stealing it), I took the one on the left.  I remember wanting to buy that house in the 90s when I first saw it, but it was in horrible condition then. 

 

The dark skies in the 2012 photo are a nice touch!

I'm a tad biased (I live just across the street from Taft's) but I think this block of Race is one of the most interesting and shows the momentum of redevelopment. From fully vacant to fully occupied in half a decade or so and a nice mix of uses. You have office space, ground floor retail, ground floor restaurants/bars, high end homes, and low income housing, and a community garden all on one block along the streetcar line. Definitely one of the most diverse areas of OTR.

Yvette Simpson apparently wants to make it her goal to make the streetcar not just a part of Uptown's future, but apparently extend it completely to make it regional light rail.

 

If this is the case, and she stands by it, (and assuming she will run for mayor in 2017) then she has my vote already.

I'd vote for Yvette. She is willing to stand up for what she believes in and doesn't beat around the bush. She has clearly stated goals and goes for them.

Yvette 2017!

It seems like a bit of grassroots effort might be popping up to bring the streetcar Uptown. Apparently, PG Sittenfeld spoke to some group of UC students and asked if they wanted the streetcar to come to UC. There was an overwhelmingly positive response but PG told them that UC students need to advocate for it or it's not going to happen. That's a pretty bold move from Sittenfeld, who hasn't been one of the strongest streetcar supporters on council. Also, someone tweeted at Santa Ono and ask if the streetcar could come to UC. He replied that he liked the idea. Although, I can't find the tweet now so maybe he deleted it.

 

Finally, I know some Mt. Auburn community groups are starting to advocate for the Uptown extension as well.

I'm sure the streetcar will be the main issue in the 2017 City of Cincinnati elections, just as it was in the 2009, 2011 and 2013 elections. Except that now we don't just have an idea, we have a product that seems to be well accepted. The issue in the 2017 election will not be about stopping the streetcar. It will be about which candidates are willing to pledge to build the streetcar to the University of Cincinnati. Assuming the downtown leg is successful, there will be a huge demand to do that. Will be interesting.

Should it be billed as a street car extension, or as a light rail extension?

 

Assuming were going with the plan to bore a tunnel and use light rail vehicles still...

 

Only because I could see quite a few more people jump on board with the concept of a fast connector to uptown via a tunnel and light rail, opposed to a street car that has to climb the hill to clifton, and will have multiple stops along the way.

^Both options would probably have one stop along the way. Vine Street might have two.

 

There are definitely people who will say the tunnel is too expensive, though.

 

Without a governor who is in favor of public transit, I don't think the city can realistically pursue the tunnel option. We need state support for that.

^Both options would probably have one stop along the way. Vine Street might have two.

 

There are definitely people who will say the tunnel is too expensive, though.

 

Without a governor who is in favor of public transit, I don't think the city can realistically pursue the tunnel option. We need state support for that.

 

How much would the tunnel even cost?

No one knows and those proposing it don't want to speculate for fears costs would go up and opponents could go, "see look, they said it would be $X earlier and now we are finding out it will be $Y DOLLARS!!!!1!!1!!!"

^ Working on it

^Both options would probably have one stop along the way. Vine Street might have two.

 

There are definitely people who will say the tunnel is too expensive, though.

 

Without a governor who is in favor of public transit, I don't think the city can realistically pursue the tunnel option. We need state support for that.

 

State support would make our lives a lot easier, but it's not essential. Federal support IS essential -- provided that a local share from public and private sources is possible. The only way any meaningful support will come from the state is if the Ohio's predominantly urban and suburban populations place on the ballot and pass a funding resource that bypasses the rural and exurban dominated state legislature. A professional, millennial woman of color living in the urban core of Cincinnati, Cleveland or Columbus may as well be on a planet different than an elderly white man working a 200-acre farm somewhere north of Hicksville or east of Knockemstiff. And right now our legislature's policies moreso support the lifestyles of the latter.

^I don't see a tunnel as feasible if the state will block any possible funds they can. I think the Vine Street route (depending on cost) could be pursued without state support and with federal support.

The best case scenario would be for SORTA--not the city--to be the organization studying the expansion of the streetcar and eventually managing its construction.

^How about the paper-streets-through-the-forest route? Could that be coupled with a *shorter* tunnel? There's just something appealing about the "forest" route. Or was that not feasible?

^ It was OK, but the tunnel from Main to Jefferson with a stop at The Christ Hospital is better.

John, I really think TroyEros brought up a good point about how this project is labeled/branded.  If popularity is huge for the streetcar, it's Phase 1B of the streetcar.  Or perhaps, if "regional light rail" tests better, it gets that label.  I'd be curious of your thoughts on this and what historical (MetroMoves) and current research has gone into this.

John, I really think TroyEros brought up a good point about how this project is labeled/branded.  If popularity is huge for the streetcar, it's Phase 1B of the streetcar.  Or perhaps, if "regional light rail" tests better, it gets that label.  I'd be curious of your thoughts on this and what historical (MetroMoves) and current research has gone into this.

 

I'm talking in terms of developing a streetcar line to Uptown that is capable of hosting light rail trains someday. People do seem to respond to a picture that's bigger than just getting the streetcar to Uptown. I think by the time the tunnel idea is more fully developed, the light rail conversation will be in full bloom.

 

I think there's also a level of education that's needed for the public as well.

 

Most of my friends (who are millennials to boot) consider street cars to be old san francisco trolley's, and have no clue what the word, "light rail" even refers to.

 

They understand train and subway. That's about it when it comes to public transportation. So I think there's going to be some educating done when it comes to what light rail actually is.

Right. Up until now, there were no light rail or modern streetcars systems operating in this part of the country, so the general public doesn't understand what those terms mean. Now, any time light rail is discussed in Columbus, Indianapolis, Louisville, or Lexington, it will be pretty easy for citizens and political leaders to visit Cincinnati and see it first-hand, and for local news outlets in those other cities to come to Cincinnati and get some b-roll of our system.

Here's how I see the spectrum between streetcar and light rail:

 

 

The lines we design here in Cincinnati can fall on the spectrum more towards one or the other on different counts, as long as it makes sense for the system as a whole.  For example you wouldn't want to design a slow moving, mixed traffic line to try move people between far flung neighborhoods.  But you could have a line that functions as a streetcar in some areas (such as on the downtown Main-Walnut loop) and light rail on other areas (such as in a Mt. Auburn tunnel or dedicated right of way along a highway.)

 

EDIT: my first row of this table contain deep abstract concepts (access and mobility) and those concepts are explained by Jarrett Walker here: http://www.humantransit.org/2011/01/transits-product-mobility-or-access.html

 

I was fortunate to ride the system in Dusseldorf, Germany. It was a hybrid between subway in the downtown area, high speed light rail in the median of a motorway, and a one-way loop on streets in a neighborhood. It had a special convertable stair for high platform boarding in the subway with a mechanical system that changed to a regular stair like a city bus for street running. There was one stop in the motorway section at a traffic light where passengers had to cross the motorway.

 

It seems that they got it backwards in Buffalo, with street running downtown and subway in the suburban section. In Dusseldorf, the whole system was fairly fast, with a limited number of stops.

 

I don't necessarily see the streetcar as part of a larger , one-seat system. There seem to be too many stops downtown, and adding more vehicles will just clogg the streets even more.

If you did John's tunnel with a Main/Walnut cuplet you'd have about just as many downtown stops as Portland's Green and Yellow light rail lines.

If you did John's tunnel with a Main/Walnut cuplet you'd have about just as many downtown stops as Portland's Green and Yellow light rail lines.

 

Residents of the neighborhoods just outside of downtown Buffalo forced it underground

Streetcar #2 arrives tomorrow at 4:30PM.

 

In celebration of the arrival of Cincinnati’s second streetcar, the Moerlein Lager House will be releasing its newest beer—a hoppy red ale named ‘Desire’. Following the delivery of vehicle #1176, Streetcar supporters are invited to celebrate the tapping of Desire at 6pm at the Moerlein Lager House on Tuesday November 24,215. 

 

Moerlein’s Desire is the second of five beers in the streetcar series featuring all five breweries located along the streetcar line. Each beer commemorates a different vehicle in Cincinnati’s fleet of modern streetcars.

 

Streetcar No. 1175 Beer Release Date: Oct. 30, 2015; Brewer: Taft’s Ale House; Name: Ryed the Rails

Streetcar No. 1176 Beer Release Date: Nov. 24, 2015; Brewer: Moerlein Lager House; Name: Desire

Streetcar No. 1177 Projected release date: Dec. 11, 2015; Brewer: Rhinegeist

Streetcar No. 1178 Projected release date: Jan. 7, 2016; Brewer: Christian Moerlein Tap Room

Streetcar No. 1179 Projected release date: Feb. 5, 2016; Brewer: Rock Bottom Brewery

 

About Desire:

 

A hoppy red ale.  Honey and red malts give this beer it's color and  provides a pleasant delicate sweetness that is balanced with a sensual blend of Apollo, Wakatu, Citra and Mandarina Bavaria Hops that give it a wonderful citrus nose.

IBU: 29    ABV: 4.5% 

 

Is it actually streetcar #1176 that arrives tomorrow? I had heard that #1177 would actually arrive next, then #1176, then #1178-1179.

Is it actually streetcar #1176 that arrives tomorrow? I had heard that #1177 would actually arrive next, then #1176, then #1178-1179.

 

I thought the same thing. Turns out they are numbered in the order they arrive regardless of where they are on the assembly line.

Actually, it's more complicated than that.  1177 WAS supposed to be the next one, but car 1176 leapfrogged 1177 in the production line in late October/early November (despite being behind previously). 

It seems like a bit of grassroots effort might be popping up to bring the streetcar Uptown. Apparently, PG Sittenfeld spoke to some group of UC students and asked if they wanted the streetcar to come to UC. There was an overwhelmingly positive response but PG told them that UC students need to advocate for it or it's not going to happen. That's a pretty bold move from Sittenfeld, who hasn't been one of the strongest streetcar supporters on council. Also, someone tweeted at Santa Ono and ask if the streetcar could come to UC. He replied that he liked the idea. Although, I can't find the tweet now so maybe he deleted it.

 

Finally, I know some Mt. Auburn community groups are starting to advocate for the Uptown extension as well.

 

 

The quotes from this News Record article are all positive:

 

Many University of Cincinnati students look forward to the opening of the streetcar, as it provides another method of safe transportation.

 

“We are able to take it around downtown, and this will allow us to have fun safely,” said Mary Elizabeth Devlin, a fourth-year health promotion and education student.

 

Tori Schaad, a fourth-year biology student, said the streetcar allows students to avoid expensive parking Downtown and ride to Cincinnati Reds’ games.

 

“I’m super excited for the streetcar because it means that Cincinnati is moving forward as a city, and it provides more transportation for people who don’t have cars,” said William Menke Jr., a third-year electronic media student. “It also means that more businesses will come to Cincinnati.”

WVXU's Jay Hanselman has tweeted that the appeals court has upheld lower court ruling that city is responsible for costs of relocating Duke lines for streetcar project. Next stop Ohio Supreme Court.

 

In celebration of the arrival of Cincinnati’s second streetcar, the Moerlein Lager House will be releasing its newest beer—a hoppy red ale named ‘Desire’. Following the delivery of vehicle #1176, Streetcar supporters are invited to celebrate the tapping of Desire at 6pm at the Moerlein Lager House on Tuesday November 24,215. 

 

Moerlein’s Desire is the second of five beers in the streetcar series featuring all five breweries located along the streetcar line. Each beer commemorates a different vehicle in Cincinnati’s fleet of modern streetcars.

 

Streetcar No. 1175 Beer Release Date: Oct. 30, 2015; Brewer: Taft’s Ale House; Name: Ryed the Rails

Streetcar No. 1176 Beer Release Date: Nov. 24, 2015; Brewer: Moerlein Lager House; Name: Desire

Streetcar No. 1177 Projected release date: Dec. 11, 2015; Brewer: Rhinegeist

Streetcar No. 1178 Projected release date: Jan. 7, 2016; Brewer: Christian Moerlein Tap Room

Streetcar No. 1179 Projected release date: Feb. 5, 2016; Brewer: Rock Bottom Brewery

 

About Desire:

 

A hoppy red ale.  Honey and red malts give this beer it's color and  provides a pleasant delicate sweetness that is balanced with a sensual blend of Apollo, Wakatu, Citra and Mandarina Bavaria Hops that give it a wonderful citrus nose.

IBU: 29    ABV: 4.5% 

 

 

I'm not a huge beer drinker but I had a meeting last night and thought I'd do double duty by stopping by the tapping.  It was tasty but went fast since all they had was a mini-keg.  Anybody else make it out?