I'd love to hear the opinion of your westside friends about the gentrification of OTR.  I'm sure you would get an earful about where the Westside has slid as the WestEnd and OTR has been cleared out.

It is funny that he still wants to make the gentrification argument on here and will not debate me one bit when I throw facts in his face on another thread. 

"wrestling with pigs?"  :)

 

Sounds about right...

Hit and run, as opposed to stand and fight seems to be his tactic.  It demonstrates how little he knows.

Hit and run, as opposed to stand and fight seems to be his tactic.  It demonstrates how little he knows.

 

Ding Dong, Doorbell Ditch :)  And he's got your buzzer ;)

Last night I was watching channel 19 and one of their "picture this" or "consider this" things came on and it was about the Cincinnati streetcars.  The whole clip was about 30 seconds long and completely bashed the streetcars.  The guy said why waste over $125 million on a streetcar system that goes nowhere.  He continued saying why not clean up the crime issue and negligent home owners in the area.  In conclusion he said doing that would bring people downtown. 

That Ch.19 segment is always a waste of airtime.  I've never heard an original thought -- just the same old curmudgeonly blather to maintain the status quo.  Kind of a bedtime story for naysayers.  BTW, it's been my experience that people who generally oppose change in Cincinnati are the very ones who are most eager to hear praise about the city from outsiders.  It's almost as if they hope Cincinnati is still the "Paris of the West".  Ironic when you think of it -- self-consciousness without a willingness to improve -- or at least a smug attitude about not needing to.

 

It seems the Streetcar opponents may be trying the divide and conquer approach, pitting one neighborhood against another.  We're seeing it here on this forum via their surrogates.  I've never been opposed to worthwhile subsidies in any city neighborhood -- I feel improvement anywhere adds to the greater good.  I just hope the feeling is reciprocated and appreciated.  The Streetcar is something every Cincinnatian could feel civic pride in, and I bet they will once it's up and running.     

Last night I was watching channel 19 and one of their "picture this" or "consider this" things came on and it was about the Cincinnati streetcars.  The whole clip was about 30 seconds long and completely bashed the streetcars.  The guy said why waste over $125 million on a streetcar system that goes nowhere.  He continued saying why not clean up the crime issue and negligent home owners in the area.  In conclusion he said doing that would bring people downtown. 

 

Grrr, I hate this line of reasoning.  Negligent home owners?  How about, the buildings are vacant with no prospect of tenants unless something is done.  I don't put too much on the owners of homes, thats ridiculous.  Further, what does he propose, bring an army of cops down there, say maybe 10 - 20 more cops or something?  Hmmm, well there's a 2.5 million+ a  year cost that has proved less than effective in the past.  The way to deal with the crime is not more cops, its more regular old people on the streets.  Whats the best way to do that, well thats the real debate.  This is what streetcars can bring. 

 

When will people learn that if it hurts to hit yourself in the head with a hammer, its better not to do it and try some other solution to your headache?  And where exactly did the 125 million dollar number come from?  Did he just randomly add 23 million to the current 102 million dollar proposal, or did he just pull 23 million out of $ss as the cost of the connector that Qualls wants as part of phase 1? or...?

 

Mmmm, journalism.  Did he even talk to anyone in the area?

It seems the Streetcar opponents may be trying the divide and conquer approach, pitting one neighborhood against another.  We're seeing it here on this forum via their surrogates.  I've never been opposed to worthwhile subsidies in any city neighborhood -- I feel improvement anywhere adds to the greater good.  I just hope the feeling is reciprocated and appreciated.  The Streetcar is something every Cincinnatian could feel civic pride in, and I bet they will once it's up and running.

 

A rising tide floats all boats.

You mean Fox19, the bastion of liberalism that it is, is not supporting a measure that could make a real positive impact on our fair city?  Color me SHOCKED!  :-o

Ding Dong, Doorbell Ditch And he's got your buzzer

 

If we are not to confront attacks, just let them go, and let these boards be filled up with baseless accusations and falsehoods, then what is the point?  Either he discuss the issues that he is throwing out there or ban the guy.  I prefer to discuss.

 

why not clean up the crime issue and negligent home owners in the area

And channel 19 needs to be confronted as well and have to present a REconsider this.  We have one of the lowest crime rates of all 5 districts and with landlord accountability act now in place, this is just misinformation.  It should not be dismissed, it should be confronted and corrected.

Ding Dong, Doorbell Ditch And he's got your buzzer

 

If we are not to confront attacks, just let them go, and let these boards be filled up with baseless accusations and falsehoods, then what is the point?  Either he discuss the issues that he is throwing out there or ban the guy.  I prefer to discuss.

 

I am not suggesting that you don't confront him, but what I do suggest, is that after, by your own admission, you addressed the accusations, that you just leave it be. 

 

From my stance, I will address the concerns or issues or questions raised by a new poster once, but when the accusation is repeated, without any rebuttal of my points after I originally addressed the comments, well then its time to ignore and move on, or simply state, "rebut my previous points".  Failing some actual substantive rebuttal, its simple trolling, and nothing more.

So no one rebut him from here on?  Ok, I will bite my tongue, let him say whatever and as much as he wants.  Not generally how I do things but I am willing to take one for the team.

So no one rebut him from here on?  Ok, I will bite my tongue, let him say whatever and as much as he wants.  Not generally how I do things but I am willing to take one for the team.

No, no, thats not what I am saying either :)  What I am saying is that if he goes to gentrification, then you say, "umm, we already shot that down, next?"

 

Further, if more and new wacky points, such as the handicap accessibility come out, well then you address those.  I think he will rapidly run out of "points" as we address them all.  My only suggestion is that if we have already addressed the specific issue, with this specific poster, and there has been no substantive rebuttal, the appropriate response is "we already dealt with that and you had nothing - show us some reasoning or move on"

 

Just how I deal with posters like him/her.  I don't mind making the argument and facing the accusation head on.  I do mind rehashing the same argument with the same poster, with nothing new added in terms of rebuttal :)

 

(again, this is my personal preference for how to deal with trolls, I have no input into how others choose to deal, but I don't like watching people bang their heads against walls either :))

 

why not clean up the crime issue and negligent home owners in the area

And channel 19 needs to be confronted as well and have to present a REconsider this.  We have one of the lowest crime rates of all 5 districts and with landlord accountability act now in place, this is just misinformation.  It should not be dismissed, it should be confronted and corrected.

 

Channel 19 needs to get a few angry letters on this one.  No doubt.

If you'd like to send an angry letter to Fox19, you can follow the link below to watch the Consider This segment and click on "Consider This - Streetcar to Nowhere".  There is a form for email responses as well.

 

http://www.fox19.com/Global/category.asp?C=65470

 

I've already sent mine:

 

[email protected]

I will definitely send my angry letter about the "crime rate" portion of the segment.  The numbers were actually correct in terms of dollars, so I retract that criticism.  The crime criticism stands.  Michael, do you have the numbers for current crime rate in OTR/CBD relative to the other districts?

 

Further, the other barbs at "something to do", just is complete garbage.  Also, the comment about "why aren't the corporate dollars coming", they haven't been asked yet, the finance plan is on the ground floor.  I also have gripes about the "your tax dollars" comment (given the way the plan is funded)

 

The real irony is that the ad I got before watching the video was for dulcolax.

 

It's a fact that electronic media -- all across the nation -- often have negative bias in their coverage to rail transit issues. Many of my counterparts in other cities have noted this over the years.

 

Rail is too complicated for three minutes of TV, so the simplistic objections carry the story.

 

Rail takes people out of their cars, so talk-radio isn't very interested.

 

Generally newspapers give pretty fair coverage.

Keep in mind that the "Consider This" segment is basically an editorial, so they're certainly entitled to their opinion on the Streetcar, even if they are opposed to it.  However, when during the course of their criticism they cite "facts" that are either inaccurate or just flat-out wrong, they need to be called out on that. 

 

A rising tide floats all boats.

 

Boats float on their own. But a rising tide lifts all boats!

 

Keep in mind that the "Consider This" segment is basically an editorial, so they're certainly entitled to their opinion on the Streetcar, even if they are opposed to it.  However, when during the course of their criticism they cite "facts" that are either inaccurate or just flat-out wrong, they need to be called out on that. 

Well here's my problem.  They cite "perception" and when perception doesn't square with reality, even though "perception" is hard to gauge as a fact, I think its appropriate to point out how the perception is not well founded in the facts on the ground.

 

  ^---  "Once they ripped all of that rail out of the ground..."

 

  Actually, most of the streetcar rails in Cincinnati are still there, and still in good shape, covered with asphalt. Typically, it has only been removed where it was in the way of new utility construction or other road work.

 

    By the way, does anyone know what guage the streetcar would be? The old streetcar guage was 5'-2".

^ 4 feet, 8 1/2 inches -- pretty much the standard around the world now.

The Skoda vehicles in Portland are standard gauge.

 

As for the "Uptown Connector"...according to the Google Earth measure tool, the distance from Findlay Market to McMillan St. via either Clifton Ave. or Vine is exactly one mile.  It's the exact same distance using either hill.  That said one ends at Hughes High School and the other at University Plaza.  I tend to think that the Clifton Ave. route would get higher ridership but I don't have any data to support that. 

 

Here's the dilemma...if Cranley and Qualls are successful in demanding the so-called Uptown Connector to be built as part of Phase 1, it greatly complicates the Phase 2 situation since they will expect the best cost/benefit from a Phase 1 stand-alone even if that route would be less than ideal for the full build-out. 

 

If Phase 1 were to include this additional mile of track, how many additional vehicles will be needed to maintain projected headways?  Portland's system began with an order for 7 streetcars at a cost of roughly $2 million apiece.  The cost would surely be much higher now given inflation and the weak dollar, maybe $4 or $5 million. 

 

However, I don't think the shop facilities would be much more expensive to house one or two more vehicles since there are certain fixed costs that wouldn't rise with additional vehicles. 

^ Take a few rides up and down Clifton and Vine Streets on the buses. Except, here's the thing -- you have to stand for the entire trip, as will be the case with 75% of streetcar riders. Tell us what you think.

Could someone, with more time than they know what to do with, make a map of this connector (the viable alternatives) to the uptown loop, which I assume circles campus?  I realize this is all conjecture that this point, and the point of the next study is to decide/flesh out these things, but let's face it; this place is full of nothing if not opinions. 

 

Given what I used to know about getting from downtown to Clifton, I assumed the uptown loop would merely be a continuation (perhaps with a jog to the east towards vine) of the downtown/OTR loop.  Now it sounds like there would be two independent lines with what amounts to an incline between the two.  <-- that was hyperbole; I like to laugh, so bear with me. 

I don't have Photoshop on this computer or else I would do it.  You can download Google Earth for free, it has feet above sea level for every point on the globe and you can draw paths to measure distances in miles, feet, centimeters, whatever. 

 

John I understand your worries about standing passengers.  As best as I can calculate given Google Earth, the grades are as follows:

 

Vine              -- average 6% for 4,700ft. between McMicken St. and Wm H. Taft

 

Clifton           -- average 6.5% for 4,500ft. between McMicken St. and McMillan St.

                       7-8% between Vine St. and W. Clifton turn but less steep above that point

 

Sycamore      -- 11% for 2,300ft. between Liberty St. and Dorchester

 

Ravine          -- 12% for 1,300ft. between McMicken St. and Warner

                       briefly levels at Warner then climbs at a shallow grade for another 1,000ft. to McMillan   

 

 

 

Again this is as precise as I can get with what I have.  Incidentally the distance between Findlay Market and Hughes High School via Ravine St. measures about 2,000ft. longer than Clifton Ave.

 

Alright I'll stick strictly to the Streetcars.

 

What happens if neither the State nor Private Corporations belly up on the money, is this plan dead?

 

If this is about revitalization of OTR and downtown, then why not give 3CDC the $102 million and let them get really busy?

If the State and no Private companies belly up any money, the financing plan will definitely go back to the drawing board.  Dead, I don't know, but that would very much change the financing.  That would be a most serious setback.  That said, nothing happens as far as building until those commitments are in place.

 

As far as revitalization, it wouldn't be as simple as just giving 3CDC 102 million.  The redevelopment area is much wider than the area covered by their holdings.  Further, the key development benefit is not just a handout to redevelop, but the attraction of a wide array of private interests who see the value in low priced properties along what is will likely be a premium development area if the line does get built.  In other words, if we wanted to see the same bang as the 102 million invested in the streetcar, we'd have to give 1.4 billion to private development interests.  (This is not to say the city sees a direct benefit of 1.4 billion, just that is the estimated total impact along the line within approximately 3 blocks of the line)

Well here's my problem.  They cite "perception" and when perception doesn't square with reality, even though "perception" is hard to gauge as a fact, I think its appropriate to point out how the perception is not well founded in the facts on the ground.

 

Agreed.  Just pointing out that it's acceptable for an editorial to be skewed, provided that it is factually accurate, which appears to be questionable in this case.

 

Actually, most of the streetcar rails in Cincinnati are still there, and still in good shape, covered with asphalt. Typically, it has only been removed where it was in the way of new utility construction or other road work.

 

Well, it's no longer functional, at any rate.  Whatever happened to it (other than in front of Music Hall), it isn't visible and certainly not in use any more.  :angel:

 

What happens if neither the State nor Private Corporations belly up on the money, is this plan dead?

 

While I think this case is unlikely, it certainly seems like the city could creatively find a way to close the gap.  $100 million is a lot of money to you and me, and even to the city government, but it's not an inappropriately huge amount to spend on part of a mass transit system.  It's actually on the cheap side, believe it or not.  Given the fact that we no longer have any rail transit in this town, I'd guess they'll find a way to finance this, even in the worst case scenario.  That said, until the Finance Commitee votes on this, the city can't even talk to the state, feds, or private groups, so the big obstacle right now isn't finding the funding, it's getting permission to find the funding.  I say, at least give us permission to ask.  If the funding isn't there, it isn't there.  We'll deal with that obstacle if/when we come to it, but until then, it's just silly to tie our hands while the price tag increases.

 

 

If this is about revitalization of OTR and downtown, then why not give 3CDC the $102 million and let them get really busy?

 

Well, it's only partly about revitalization of OTR and downtown.  You also get the beginnings of a comprehensive rail transit system, so it's 2 for the price of 1.  The idea, as hohum pointed out, is to encourage private groups to throw money at OTR.  You could give 3CDC $102 million (though I'm not sure where that money would come from, given that the funding plan would have to be totally different), but that wouldn't encourage other developers to invest.  That would only encourage 3CDC to build and put other developers at a disadvantage.  Spending money on rail makes a statement that the city is investing heavily in an area, and that private money is encouraged to do the same, just as the city did so successfully with Fountain Square. 

 

Also, right now, developers have to include 2+ parking spaces for each condo unit, which increases the price of every unit by thousands of dollars.  If they could cut that to 1+ unit per because an alternative to driving exists, they could reduce the selling prices, making the units more affordable. 

 

Having a streetcar also makes the area more walkable.  If you could live on 4th street and be able to easily reach Music Hall or Clifton without driving and without a LONG walk, it literally makes your accessible neighborhood larger.  If you have to drive everywhere, why would living downtown be any different than living in, say, Hyde Park?

I don't have Photoshop on this computer or else I would do it.  You can download Google Earth for free, it has feet above sea level for every point on the globe and you can draw paths to measure distances in miles, feet, centimeters, whatever. 

 

John I understand your worries about standing passengers.  As best as I can calculate given Google Earth, the grades are as follows:

 

Vine              -- average 6% for 4,700ft. between McMicken St. and Wm H. Taft

 

Clifton           -- average 6.5% for 4,500ft. between McMicken St. and McMillan St.

                       7-8% between Vine St. and W. Clifton turn but less steep above that point

 

Sycamore      -- 11% for 2,300ft. between Liberty St. and Dorchester

 

Ravine          -- 12% for 1,300ft. between McMicken St. and Warner

                       briefly levels at Warner then climbs at a shallow grade for another 1,000ft. to McMillan   

 

 

 

Again this is as precise as I can get with what I have.  Incidentally the distance between Findlay Market and Hughes High School via Ravine St. measures about 2,000ft. longer than Clifton Ave.

 

 

 

Thanks Jake. It's not so much the average slope, but the varying slopes combined with some fairly tight turns. There's a similar, but much shorter slope on the Portland Streetcar where I've been observing how passengers react to it. It's near the end of the line, and so there are relatively few passengers at that point. My conclusion is, passengers often try to be seated on this slope, whereas they don't mind standing along other points of the line. It' s pretty unscientific, but that's my sense. And I know what's it's like to stand up on a bus going up or down Vine Street Hill.

If this is about revitalization of OTR and downtown, then why not give 3CDC the $102 million and let them get really busy?

 

Give a man a fish...feed him for a day, teach a man to fish...feed him for a lifetime.

Well, just an anecdotal reference here, but yesterday was so beautiful that I decided to walk down to Grammers from my house up near UC.  I like walking down Vine, instead of Clifton, or Straight, or Ravine, so thats the path I went, up to the University and then back down Vine.  My whole idea was that it has been a while since I've been "moving slow" through that whole neighborhood, and I wanted to see what was happening development wise, especially down in OTR.  (On my way, I decided to gather some data to counter a story Larry Gross put out about how Cincinnati is not as friendly as it is perceived to be, but thats another story - http://blogs.citybeat.com/livingoutloud/2008/03/good-morning.html#comments)

 

Anyhow, the long and skinny of it is that there were alot of people out working on their properties.  I got to "press the flesh" with a lot of small developers along the proposed line in OTR.  We aren't talking about guys with millions invested, but everything from someone who bought a shell for $38K several years back to people doing small retail space development in historic buildings playing in the 100s of thousands ballpark.  Again, this is just anecdotal, but there is an almost contagious optimism among these guys.  Some of them had held empty shells for 3+ years, and are just now figuring out how to develop them because its looking like the right time.  (BTW, after telling these guys that I've been trying to be as involved as I can in spreading the word/going to council meetings and speaking, etc, every one of these guys asked me "So when is the streetcar coming?"  They are somewhat banking on it)

 

It isn't just the 3CDC's of the world that will be attracted by a streetcar, its average guys and gals, like the people I talked to, who are ready willing and able to invest if there is a REASON.

 

Just my anecdotal 2c

>Well, it's only partly about revitalization of OTR and downtown.  You also get the beginnings of a comprehensive rail transit system, so it's 2 for the price of 1. 

 

Some of you may recall that a cost-saving measure proposed during later light rail proposals was a streetcar line from Downtown > UC > Walnut Hills to provided access to the UC area from the I-71 line instead of the costly Mt. Auburn Tunnel.  So when light rail proposals resume, the streetcar system will at least be partly in place uptown meaning no major tunnels will be necessary and as little as a mile of low-cost streetcar track from Gilbert Ave. will reach a streetcar system already in operation on Jefferson or Short Vine. 

>I like walking down Vine, instead of Clifton, or Straight, or Ravine, so thats the path I went, up to the University and then back down Vine.

 

I walked down Vine yesterday at about 4:30.  I talked to three people on the hill alone, everyone was in a good mood.  There was a big group grilling out in Inwood Park, some guys working on a building down by the Curve Cafe watching a big hawk fly around. I'm always amazed by these negative blog people, I honestly don't think we're living in the same world. 

>I like walking down Vine, instead of Clifton, or Straight, or Ravine, so thats the path I went, up to the University and then back down Vine.

 

I walked down Vine yesterday at about 4:30.  I talked to three people on the hill alone, everyone was in a good mood.  There was a big group grilling out in Inwood Park, some guys working on a building down by the Curve Cafe watching a big hawk fly around. I'm always amazed by these negative blog people, I honestly don't think we're living in the same world. 

 

Hah, we must have been walking at the same time (I left my house at 4, and was right by Inwood right around 4:30).  I went over and said hi to the folks having the bbq, snapped a few shots looking up the hill.

^I think I saw those same guys around 7, playing cornhole. That pleased me greatly.

 

 

 

Actually, I walked down Loth St. so maybe you were walking up Vine when I was walking down Loth.  I talked to an old guy on Loth St. for about 10 minutes, he was telling me about how he grew up on Rice St. and how the German women used to get down on their hands and knees and scrub the sidewalks. 

^Wow... Now that's civic pride!

^

I read about the Soapbox derby yesterday and was thinkng to myself that it would be cool to see someone make one that looked like a streetcar. Anyone's kids racing in the race?

^ Trouble is, with those oversized black plastic wheels, it would look a lot like a bus...

I saw today that the latest census figures show the Cincy metro area has grown by over 12,000 people, surpassing Cleveland.  Theoretically, this should be a good impetus for not only the streetcar, but a larger light rail system that would connect the metro area (not that it's likely anytime in the near future). 

 

Strange quote in the article by the Cincinnati USA VP for economic development: "Ikea located here," Moorman said. "They didn't pick Cleveland. And it's not only for our great transportation system. There are more people here."

 

I guess "our great transportation system" is referring to I-75?

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/NEWS01/803270372/-1/CINCI

FYI - The Weston Gallery in the Aronoff Center is exhibiting its annual canned/packaged food sculptures.  One is in the shape of a trolley car.  Check it out but spread the word that the Streetcar WILL NOT look like it :-P

^

I read about the Soapbox derby yesterday and was thinkng to myself that it would be cool to see someone make one that looked like a streetcar. Anyone's kids racing in the race?

 

The Brewery District and the OTR Foundation are helping sponsoring an OTR car, but there are limited areas where you can put graphics on the car.  Great idea though.

Here is something i whipped up real quick if anybody has a good pic along the streetcar route i'll throw that in there, or a better slogan than bring life back. It was just the first thing i came up with

 

I was in a waiting room yesterday paging through an old Sports Illustrated when I came across this blurb on Hakeem Olajuwon:

 

Nearly every other block of downtown Houston features some property in which Olajuwon has had a role. Near the Convention Center and Minute Maid Park he has flipped two adjacent plots to high-rise developers, one for offices, another for apartments. He bought the land five years ago, when commercial builders didn't foresee another inner-loop high-rise for 10 years. Now expansion of a light-rail system has touched off a boom downtown, and the city is installing a park next to the new towers. "Plans for the park weren't known when I bought," Olajuwon says. "And that's why I can't say I'm so smart."

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/nba/06/25/watn.olajuwon/1.html

 

 

 

More photochop fun (with my far less than leet skills), threw in a few streetcars.  Improbably spaced, and whatever, but just for fun :)

I think those of you on this board that actually know what they are talking about (im simply implying that i dont with regards to the finer details concerning this issue) need to make attempts to court Paul Dogherty about being a streetcar advocate. He has been all about transportation the past couple weeks in his blog.  Could be an effective weapon in informing the masses?  Just a thought. 

 

Also some perspective on downtown pheonix....

 

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/daugherty/

Columbus considering streetcars, too

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS AND THE ENQUIRER

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- A proposed $103 million streetcar line running through city neighborhoods would be paid for with a 4 percent surcharge on concert tickets, sporting events and downtown parking, Mayor Michael Coleman said.

 

The nearly 3-mile streetcar route would spur economic development in the area and could serve as the first step toward a wider commuter rail system for central Ohio, Coleman said in announcing the financing plan Thursday.

^No creativity.  We could keep the streetcar free and finish the entire line if we follow Akron's lead.

 

Akron mayor wants to sell sewers, use cash to give free tuition

Posted by Patrick O'Donnell February 07, 2008 22:35PM

Categories: Breaking News, Education, Impact

 

Akron -- Mayor Don Plusquellic wants to sell the city's sewer system and use the money to send residents to the University of Akron for free.

 

Plusquellic said Thursday that his plan is to create a scholarship fund by selling the sewer system, which the city values at $100 million to $400 million. That would give the city enough money to cover tuition and fees for the university or a trade school in the city.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/02/akron_mayor_wants_to_sell_sewe.html

it frustrates me that Columbus will probably get this done more quickly.