Honestly I'm surprised there have been $49k in fares sold so far, with all of the ticket machine problems and the lack of fare enforcement. Does anybody know, once police start handing out tickets to people who didn't pay their fare, does that revenue go towards the streetcar? I would assume it does but I wouldn't take it for granted. For example, downtown parking meter revenue goes towards the streetcar but parking tickets given out downtown don't.

Historically the streetcar companies would line up just about every available car they could find at the end of baseball games to take everyone home.  Of course they were also serving many lines, if not to the entire city then close to it, so they needed a lot more cars just to cover all the places people were going, but still, there's special runs for a reason. 

 

All Aboard Ohio had its fall meeting at the Moerlein Lager House and we headed over to the Banks station at 1:20 p.m. We waited about 20 minutes for a streetcar which was so full we had to split our AAO group in two. The next streetcar came about 15 minutes later. It was also very full.

 

We arrived our destination -- the Maintenance & Operations Facility -- late but the staff there understood! They had already begun prepping a third streetcar to go out to handle the crowds. And they knew they had a problem because there's an operations desk at the MOF where they can see where all the streetcars are at any given time. I asked the Transdev staff if that screen could be made available to riders via the Internet and he said yes. But will they?

 

Here's some photos from Saturday, Sept. 24....

 

 

 

When in Cincinnati, do what Cincinnatians do...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Time to head back to the car (parked at the Banks) and drive back to Cleveland. That drive is such a waste of time. If only there was a train on which I could spend my time more productively....

 

Oh, and one more photo from the night before, showing the multi-modal options available at Government Square/Fountain Square:

I took the streetcar for my commute home from work this evening, and there was a cop on the car checking for tickets.  Most people seemed to have them, though they weren't necessarily all validated. 

Same experience tonight. Cop was teaching riders how to validate.

Sen. Rob Portman says Cincinnati should have spent the money it spent on the streetcar on the Brent Spence project instead:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/editorials/2016/09/27/senate-hopefuls-navigate-streetcar-bridge/91180418/

 

Nevermind that the City is in basically no way responsible for the bridge project since it doesn't own it, but hey, facts have never mattered when discussing either the streetcar or the bridge. 

And the $50 million in federal money that went towards the streetcar would have only been a drop in the bucket towards the $3 billion bridge.

Furthermore, you'd think that in the Greatest Country On Earth that we can afford to do both and a whole lot more. It's a false choice intended only to stir up anger and division. It doesn’t educate or elevate.

Same experience tonight. Cop was teaching riders how to validate.

 

When you say "cop", are you talking about an armed CPD officer? This seems like the kind of work that should be done by the <a href="http://www.downtowncincinnati.com/about-us/safe-clean-friendly">downtown/OTR ambassadors</a>. On a somewhat related note, it always frustrates me when I see armed cops directing traffic, as if that's the best use of our resources. That's a bit like have an airline pilot work as stewardess, handing out peanuts and drinks. American cities would benefit a lot from having a "community patrol" who are a) less expensive to hire than police b) not carrying firearms, and c) deliberately presented as less authoritarian. I think our Ambassadors program can serve as the foundation for this, if it's given a bit more funding to a) operate longer hours and b) staff up for special events. I'd like to see the Ambassadors and CPD work collaboratively identifying who should handle specific tasks/events/situations.

You need a trained, sworn police officer because fare violations are an offense that, after at least one warning, is an offense subject to fine/arrest. Does It take a police officer to do that. Metro have a police force? They should be the ones enforcing fares like Cleveland RTA's police does (sometimes). I have seen them arrest passengers who have multiple fare violations.

The streetcar budget includes police detail which involves officers riding on the streetcars -- which is a really good thing considering some of the dumb behavior I have already witnessed on board when no cops are present. I have also had a Transdev/Metro employee check my fare before. I think someone told me that some Transdev/Metro staff have been deputized so they are able to issue tickets to fare evaders. With that being said, I agree with your larger point. In this city, we always hear about how the police are stretched so thin and we need to spend more money hiring more cops. It would be nice to have more of a two-tier system similar to how UC has a Police Department but also has security guards.

And the $50 million in federal money that went towards the streetcar would have only been a drop in the bucket towards the $3 billion bridge.

 

Yet again, The Enquirer fails to call out an official for suggesting moving money in a way that is completely illegal.

 

It's like suggesting that a football player use his college scholarship to buy a house.  It's like saying parking tickets should fund NASA.  It's like saying we should reduce the national debt by selling off the Capitol Mall to Wal-Mart and Home Depot. 

 

 

The streetcar budget includes police detail which involves officers riding on the streetcars -- which is a really good thing considering some of the dumb behavior I have already witnessed on board when no cops are present. I have also had a Transdev/Metro employee check my fare before. I think someone told me that some Transdev/Metro staff have been deputized so they are able to issue tickets to fare evaders. With that being said, I agree with your larger point. In this city, we always hear about how the police are stretched so thin and we need to spend more money hiring more cops. It would be nice to have more of a two-tier system similar to how UC has a Police Department but also has security guards.

 

And it should be pointed out that the dumb behavior is usually the frat boy preppy crowd, not panhandlers or those "velociraptors" Joe Deters warned us about. 

 

And the $50 million in federal money that went towards the streetcar would have only been a drop in the bucket towards the $3 billion bridge.

 

Yet again, The Enquirer fails to call out an official for suggesting moving money in a way that is completely illegal.

 

It's like suggesting that a football player use his college scholarship to buy a house.  It's like saying parking tickets should fund NASA.  It's like saying we should reduce the national debt by selling off the Capitol Mall to Wal-Mart and Home Depot. 

 

 

 

Portman really weaseled out of answering the question

The streetcar budget includes police detail which involves officers riding on the streetcars -- which is a really good thing considering some of the dumb behavior I have already witnessed on board when no cops are present. I have also had a Transdev/Metro employee check my fare before. I think someone told me that some Transdev/Metro staff have been deputized so they are able to issue tickets to fare evaders. With that being said, I agree with your larger point. In this city, we always hear about how the police are stretched so thin and we need to spend more money hiring more cops. It would be nice to have more of a two-tier system similar to how UC has a Police Department but also has security guards.

 

And it should be pointed out that the dumb behavior is usually the frat boy preppy crowd, not panhandlers or those "velociraptors" Joe Deters warned us about. 

 

 

Oh yeah -- it was white frat boys treating the streetcar like a jungle gym, swinging from the straps and bars. This was on the last streetcar of the night on opening night.

 

On a related note, I rode two streetcars last night and the average age of riders was about 50. After years of telling us that only "gangsters and thugs" would ride the streetcar, followed by years of telling us that only "hipsters and yuppies" would ride, COAST has got to be shocked that white baby boomers are the biggest demographic by far to ride.

Who hires/trains the parking enforcement staff? That's another class of city staff that has some enforcement responsibilities but doesn't need to be a police officer.

The streetcar budget includes police detail which involves officers riding on the streetcars -- which is a really good thing considering some of the dumb behavior I have already witnessed on board when no cops are present. I have also had a Transdev/Metro employee check my fare before. I think someone told me that some Transdev/Metro staff have been deputized so they are able to issue tickets to fare evaders. With that being said, I agree with your larger point. In this city, we always hear about how the police are stretched so thin and we need to spend more money hiring more cops. It would be nice to have more of a two-tier system similar to how UC has a Police Department but also has security guards.

 

And it should be pointed out that the dumb behavior is usually the frat boy preppy crowd, not panhandlers or those "velociraptors" Joe Deters warned us about. 

 

 

Oh yeah -- it was white frat boys treating the streetcar like a jungle gym, swinging from the straps and bars. This was on the last streetcar of the night on opening night.

 

On a related note, I rode two streetcars last night and the average age of riders was about 50. After years of telling us that only "gangsters and thugs" would ride the streetcar, followed by years of telling us that only "hipsters and yuppies" would ride, COAST has got to be shocked that white baby boomers are the biggest demographic by far to ride.

 

 

I noticed that on numerous photos here on UO but of course photos can be anecdotal.

A streetcar review by a Cleveland.com/Plain Dealer reporter. The story was also retweeted by cle.com/PD's transportation beat reporter...

 

Taking a spin on Cincinnati's long-debated, new $148-million streetcar (photos, video)

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2016/09/taking_a_spin_on_cincinnatis_l.html

A streetcar review by a Cleveland.com/Plain Dealer reporter. The story was also retweeted by cle.com/PD's transportation beat reporter...

 

Taking a spin on Cincinnati's long-debated, new $148-million streetcar (photos, video)

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2016/09/taking_a_spin_on_cincinnatis_l.html

 

I'm glad fellow Shaker alum Susan Glaser is supporting Cincy transit with such a piece. I'm doubly glad she took a shot a Kasich for withholding $$ from the project although I'm a tad disappointed that, in her detailed history of the project, she didn't go all the way back to the subway.  Oh well, I still applaud this column. ...  Btw she stated she got off and had dinner at a place just  "north" of the JACK casino.  I wonder if she meant west of the casino, since the street car is several blocks to the east of the casino.  Hmmm.

I wonder if she meant west of the casino, since the street car is several blocks to the east of the casino.

 

West?

^North and West are both plausible. She probably got off at 12th and Main, which would be approximately 1 block north of the casino and ~3 blocks west.  It was nice to see this piece! I saw several Cincy reporters tweeting links to it this morning.

John Schneider's tunnel proposal has been shared over 100 times and is bringing out the boo-birds on Facebook.  It's amazing to see so many people make alternate proposals (inclines, cable cars, etc.) with the insinuation that Mr. Schneider and others haven't considered any of them.  Well welcome to 20+ years ago...a group of people has been discussing and re-discussing this for decades.  Oh, and do some basic research or at least some basic thinking.  I saw some woman instantly reject the tunnel proposal because of the "fumes", not realizing that the streetcars are electric.  Or maybe she doesn't know that electric vehicles don't have tailpipes.  And if you point something basic like that out to someone like that -- you're the bad guy. 

^Which is why you don't bother. That vocal group of highly uneducated, "opposed to anything and everything" crowd isn't worth our time. Thankfully we have people like you or John Schneider who have extensive knowledge of what can and cannot happen and what has been and has not been discussed which will push the real conversations forward.

On the topic of a tunnel, I'm just curious if anyone has a gut feel to the magnitude of cost if there were to be a tunnel from OTR up to Clifton for the street car (and future light rail).

 

Is this a $100 million endeavor?  $200 million?  $400 million?   

 

Logic tells me that it will be much more expensive than an at-grade extension of the streetcar to Clifton.  Seems like a steep uphill (no pun intended) battle to push this tunnel forward and have the general support of most of the area residents?  And unless a good portion of the money could come from federal/state funding, I'm not sure how I could see the tunnel project getting the funding?

 

And with all of this taken into consideration, I fully trust the opinion of some on here who say that an at-grade extension to Clifton is not the ideal way to get Uptown. 

I assume that a large number of Cincinnatians don't realize that the streetcar is electric. Somehow they haven't figured out what those electric wires are, or they haven't even noticed them. The fact that the streetcar runs on electricity and doesn't pump out diesel fumes into our urban core is a major benefit of the project, and it's too bad this benefit has gotten lost in the 8 years of debate. Once we have a year's worth of ridership data, someone should do a calculation of how much fuel was saved (and how much less CO2 was emitted) due to people taking the streetcar instead of buses, Ubers, or driving.

I'd imagine a tunnel would likely only get through if it was part of a citywide transit tax that allowed for multiple lines to highly populated areas. An Uptown-Xavier line that would utilize Wasson Way and a line that goes into the West Side in some fashion in order to capture that vote and population. A countywide vote isn't happening and just a tunnel to UC is going to be a tough sell. Once you've raised taxes the results have to be incredibly obvious to the layperson otherwise you won't win that battle again anytime soon.

John Schneider's tunnel proposal has been shared over 100 times and is bringing out the boo-birds on Facebook.  It's amazing to see so many people make alternate proposals (inclines, cable cars, etc.) with the insinuation that Mr. Schneider and others haven't considered any of them.  Well welcome to 20+ years ago...a group of people has been discussing and re-discussing this for decades.  Oh, and do some basic research or at least some basic thinking.  I saw some woman instantly reject the tunnel proposal because of the "fumes", not realizing that the streetcars are electric.  Or maybe she doesn't know that electric vehicles don't have tailpipes.  And if you point something basic like that out to someone like that -- you're the bad guy. 

 

Would you guys quit calling me Mr. Schneider? Makes me feel older than I already am. Thanks.

I assume that a large number of Cincinnatians don't realize that the streetcar is electric. Somehow they haven't figured out what those electric wires are, or they haven't even noticed them. The fact that the streetcar runs on electricity and doesn't pump out diesel fumes into our urban core is a major benefit of the project, and it's too bad this benefit has gotten lost in the 8 years of debate. Once we have a year's worth of ridership data, someone should do a calculation of how much fuel was saved (and how much less CO2 was emitted) due to people taking the streetcar instead of buses, Ubers, or driving.

 

I may be wrong but the electric for the city is still being bought from first energy right? I remember the city making this decision because it was "green" because it's backed by green energy credits. So if true, would this be the first transit in the country powered by "green" energy other than biodiesel buses? I have no idea so that's why I'm asking.

Streetcar will run additional car + extended hours for Bengals game tomorrow:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/09/28/streetcar-operate-late-night-bengals-game/91232622/

And the $50 million in federal money that went towards the streetcar would have only been a drop in the bucket towards the $3 billion bridge.

 

Yet again, The Enquirer fails to call out an official for suggesting moving money in a way that is completely illegal.

 

It's like suggesting that a football player use his college scholarship to buy a house.  It's like saying parking tickets should fund NASA.  It's like saying we should reduce the national debt by selling off the Capitol Mall to Wal-Mart and Home Depot. 

 

 

 

LOL

Streetcar will run additional car + extended hours for Bengals game tomorrow:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/09/28/streetcar-operate-late-night-bengals-game/91232622/

 

I'm surprised listeners haven't called out 700wlw radio host for being dead wrong on their assumption that no one will ride the streetcar???

Do any streetcar supporters ever call in to WLW?

Do any streetcar supporters ever call in to WLW?

 

I've called in a few times, but it's been about a year or so.

Citylab argues that because weekend ridership is higher on KC's and Cincinnati's streetcars, they aren't real transportation.  It's definitely interesting to see how the mild hit pieces levied against streetcars by progressive media sources are now having to come up with new reasons to hate streetcars.  But I think the big point that they are missing is that commuting represents less than 50% of the ridership on most bus lines and on the interstate.  There are all sorts of other trips that occur, and if people are already out of their cars, the streetcar gets WAY more ridership than a bus. 

 

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2016/09/the-streetcar-cant-save-your-city/501014/

Wow, what an idiotic conclusion. "Heavy ridership on weekends, ergo, not a tool residents or workers use." Right, because residents along the line don't do anything on weekends and nobody works in the city on weekends and needs to commute. What a load of bullcrap.

 

Whatever, we'll just keep pushing for expansion and improving the existing system and watch its success firsthand.

Why are these ostensibly pro-urban sites coming out against streetcars so much? Are they only into heavy rail?

No they are into BRT.

Why are these ostensibly pro-urban sites coming out against streetcars so much? Are they only into heavy rail?

 

Their excuse for KC is that the streetcar is free.  But most cities have free bus circulators and hardly anyone rides them.  I know both Nashville and Baltimore have them and probably a few more.  The Southbank Shuttle wouldn't get many more riders here if it was free. 

 

BRT, where it exists, is not making America great again.  There are very few examples of it in the United States, and each example is much different than the other.  The Orange Line BRT in LA is very different from the Health Line in Cleveland which is very different than the Silver Line BRT in Boston.  Nobody riding on a light rail train or streetcar is saying "gee, I would rather be on a bus". 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if she meant west of the casino, since the street car is several blocks to the east of the casino.

 

West?

 

Yes you're correct, west... The streetcar runs west of the casino which, necessarily, would mean the casino is east of the streetcar.  However, now looking at a better map (than Google's) of the streetcar, I realize that part of the loop, on Main Street, has a stop .2 miles from the casino.  At first I thought the closest section of the streetcar to the casino was along Walnut street, which would be considerably further (by 2 blocks or .1 miles) away -- but of course, even then, one riding southbound to the casino from, say, Findlay Market, would have to ride down the the stadium area and back up to shave off the 2 block walk... which, in reality, isn't that bad at least at most times of year weather wise. 

 

But the casino doesn't appear to be naturally served by the rail line.  I find it interesting that Glaser, as a native Clevelander, feels otherwise especially since Clevelanders often find Cleveland's Rapid (the rail kind) not convenient simply because he/she has to walk an extra block or 2.

 

 

 

BRT, where it exists, is not making America great again.  There are very few examples of it in the United States, and each example is much different than the other.  The Orange Line BRT in LA is very different from the Health Line in Cleveland which is very different than the Silver Line BRT in Boston.

 

... and Pittsburgh's BRT, utilizing a RR ROW, is different (and much faster) than Cleveland's (with no tripped traffic signals) or Boston's Silver Line.

 

  Nobody riding on a light rail train or streetcar is saying "gee, I would rather be on a bus". 

 

Amen to that!!  :wave:

BRT plans seem to be mostly astroturfing by anti-rail types, and even then it usually ends up getting watered down to little more than standard limited/express service. 

Why are these ostensibly pro-urban sites coming out against streetcars so much? Are they only into heavy rail?

 

Their excuse for KC is that the streetcar is free.  But most cities have free bus circulators and hardly anyone rides them.  I know both Nashville and Baltimore have them and probably a few more.  The Southbank Shuttle wouldn't get many more riders here if it was free. 

 

BRT, where it exists, is not making America great again.  There are very few examples of it in the United States, and each example is much different than the other.  The Orange Line BRT in LA is very different from the Health Line in Cleveland which is very different than the Silver Line BRT in Boston.  Nobody riding on a light rail train or streetcar is saying "gee, I would rather be on a bus". 

 

 

These bloggers always seem to find a new argument against streetcars. You'll recall their recent conclusions that they would all fail because they're not in dedicated lanes. Now we'll deal with this one. Plus, look at the examples this writer is coming up with: Washington DC -- probably the most troubled build in the whole country; Little Rock and Tampa - tourist things. How come they don't talk to Tucson or Seattle. Sure they talked to Portland and praise it. What they neglected to mention is that Cincinnati's streetcar is carrying 160% of the riders per mile that Portland is. We've been open three weeks, Portland 15 years.

Why are these ostensibly pro-urban sites coming out against streetcars so much? Are they only into heavy rail?

 

It's bizarre how much time various pro-urban and pro-transit sites spend bashing streetcars. I do believe that many of them are based on the coasts and they simply do not understand the challenges of getting real transit built in the Midwest. For example I remember one anti-streetcar guy bashing our streetcar because they headways are "only" every 12 minutes. What he failed to understand is that every 12 minutes is drastically more frequent than any bus in any city in the entire state of Ohio. I guess it's hard to understand if you're used to subways that come by every 5-8 minutes.

 

For a shocking number of Cincinnatians, riding the streetcar is their first time ever on public transit. That has been fairly obvious just from observing people on board.

Nobody riding on a light rail train or streetcar is saying "gee, I would rather be on a bus". 

 

And yet, one time when I was on the Cbus circulator bus in Columbus, I overheard a random guy say, "they really should've built a streetcar." That's a true story. People really enjoy the experience of riding on a streetcar between their destinations, and most people simply don't enjoy riding the bus and won't do it.

Why are these ostensibly pro-urban sites coming out against streetcars so much? Are they only into heavy rail?

 

It's bizarre how much time various pro-urban and pro-transit sites spend bashing streetcars. I do believe that many of them are based on the coasts and they simply do not understand the challenges of getting real transit built in the Midwest. For example I remember one anti-streetcar guy bashing our streetcar because they headways are "only" every 12 minutes. What he failed to understand is that every 12 minutes is drastically more frequent than any bus in any city in the entire state of Ohio. I guess it's hard to understand if you're used to subways that come by every 5-8 minutes.

 

For a shocking number of Cincinnatians, riding the streetcar is their first time ever on public transit. That has been fairly obvious just from observing people on board.

They are totally coastal elitist. Richard Florida's "creative class" looks down its nose at flyover country.  Ed Glaeser wants the Rust Belt to die. They can take their creative class and shove it.... Someplace creative!

What he failed to understand is that every 12 minutes is drastically more frequent than any bus in any city in the entire state of Ohio. I guess it's hard to understand if you're used to subways that come by every 5-8 minutes.

 

Almost the entire state. ;) But I understand what you're saying. For many urbanists (especially on the coasts or Toronto), if it doesn't run every 10 minutes or better, doesn't run in dedicated rights of way, and doesn’t carry 100+ seated people per vehicle/train on their way to work, it's just a toy trolley. To them, it's as if there's no other economic impacts to measure.

Why are these ostensibly pro-urban sites coming out against streetcars so much? Are they only into heavy rail?

 

It's bizarre how much time various pro-urban and pro-transit sites spend bashing streetcars. I do believe that many of them are based on the coasts and they simply do not understand the challenges of getting real transit built in the Midwest.

 

On the coasts, even the local conservatives are pro-rail as long as the individual plan isn't a really bad idea. Meanwhile, almost all Rs here hate transit and even a lot of our center-lefts are skeptical. "But I have a car!" say the Reagan Democrats.

^-Chicago shares a lot in common with the coasts including republicans being pro-rail.  I actually heard a republican father of one my friends say that the government ruined Amtrak :P

 

Other than the 43 before it branches many different ways has frequences at 10-12 mins, most of Cincy's buses are 15 mins minimum headways which is nothing short of terrible.  I think Cleveland is the only place in Ohio where bus service is pretty good overall to my understanding...

I'm curious to see how the numbers keep up as we move toward winter months. I am a bit concerned on the week day numbers so far. What really needs to happen is that the we keep adding residential downtown.  I wish someone would build a 60 unit spec residential or conversion with no parking and see how it rents out. You can aim that towards $1 sq ft, and probably get filled quick by downtown workers. They got to keep doing it!

The Citylab writer quite obviously did not visit Cincinnati to see the system in operation and might not have been in town at any time in the last few years.  Obviously, a few of the new streetcar projects around the country were duds or borderline duds, at least in their current forms (Altanta always had plans to expand, the SLUT in Seattle was always intended to be expanded, etc.).  If the Cincinnati project had opened in the depths of the recession circa 2010, it would not have attracted the ridership it's getting now.  But it's reasonable to expect that there would be even more rehabbed buildings along the line and more activity by 2016 than there is in 2016.  I think we can all expect weekend ridership to dip a bit during the winter since there won't be as many big weekend events.  Stuff like Redsfest and Beerfest won't motivate much ridership because they're at the convention center, which is the only major generator of rides that is not on the line.  But next May there will be big crowds again for the big events that occur pretty much every weekend. 

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens for the Opening Day parade.  It seems like they could shut down the service for the parade right before it starts at noon, but have two streetcars staged on Second St. and then have them start making their way up Main (staggered, of course!) as two leave the car barn down Race.