After introducing a $7.7 billion transportation and public safety budget today, Gov. Ted Strickland promised that planned highway projects will remain intact and that his administration will help find federal money for such local projects as bringing streetcars back to Cincinnati.

 

WOW...thats great!!!

^I literally just clapped. 

 

By the way marta sucks, everyone already knew that, but thank you for showing it graphically.

What is the possibility of having an actual streetcar put on display say in front of music hall etc where people could see what we could have. Somebody here a collector of retired streetcars that would like to donate one for a short time?  :-) That would be a great way to keep up the momentum!

What is the possibility of having an actual streetcar put on display say in front of music hall etc where people could see what we could have. Somebody here a collector of retired streetcars that would like to donate one for a short time?  :-) That would be a great way to keep up the momentum!

 

Putting an old streetcar on display and suggesting that this is what we'd build would be one of the worst things we could do. If would be as if Ford today used a Model-T in its commercials. How many cars do you suppose that would sell?

What is the possibility of having an actual streetcar put on display say in front of music hall etc where people could see what we could have. Somebody here a collector of retired streetcars that would like to donate one for a short time?  :-) That would be a great way to keep up the momentum!

 

 

my understanding is that the streetcars would be modern...not vintage.  i do recall (i was away at school) someone saying they had an example of one of the light rail trains out in front of union terminal when they were pushing the regionwide light rail.  is that correct?  i definately think that is something that those involved need to make absolutely clear because when most people think of street cars they think vintage.

I think the whole idea of having a model out on display is somewhat chessy...and inneffective.  A display in front of Music Hall or Union Terminal will only be viewed by a certain number of people.  Not to mention those people are most likely pro-transit to begin with (being in the city and all).

 

I would prefer to see some sort of add blitz.  Billboards everywhere, and TV commercials during locals news broadcasts.  For light rail, I never understood why they didn't have billboards up along the congested parts on I-75 with an image of a light rail and a saying like 'Lets Get Moving on Light Rail' 'Tired of Traffic?' 'Be Productive!'....you get the idea.  Thats the type of thing that I think is needed to reach out to the suburbanites and get them familiar with the transit items.

From the AP ...

 

Cincinnati may get streetcars back

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

 

COLUMBUS - After introducing a $7.7 billion transportation and public safety budget Wednesday, Gov. Ted Strickland promised that planned highway projects will remain intact and that his administration will help find federal money for such local projects as bringing streetcars back to Cincinnati.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070222/NEWS01/702220370/1056/COL02

 

 

you can also comment on that page ...

^Here is a tidbit from the Enquirer...I do mean tidbit!  Its not like this is a major project going on...so there is no need for the Enquirer to any research and/or actual reporting on the issue.  Just regurgitate what the AP wrote on the issue taking place IN YOUR OWN TOWN!

 

BTW, I was the 1st person to comment on that story...if you would like to comment here is the link:

 

Comment on this Story

So, John ...

 

We haven't heard a whole lot from you in while (couple of weeks ;) ) ... Is there anything happening on a large scale that we don't know about yet?

I read this in Huntington's Herald-Dispatch. This is certainly good news and it looks as if this governor has his priorities straight!

I prefer vintage over modern anyday, but I'll take modern over nothing.   :-D

 

I forgot to mention in the last post a modern car on display would be nice also  but figured it would be much harder to get one. anyway...This is good news about the $$$ for streetcars :clap:

Perhaps if Portland is ordering new vehicles we could get one temporary shipped here for a week or two before it heads out there?  My guess though is that they are sent over here in pieces so that's probably not practical.  I do know that a few of the Dallas light rail vehicles were shipped up to Salt Lake City for the Olympics, I don't know if they were towed on freight rails directly or if the trucks were removed and they were shipped on flatbed cars.

 

Or maybe we could all pitch in to borrow that 747 from NASA that carries the Space Shuttle...   

I don't know if they were towed on freight rails directly or if the trucks were removed and they were shipped on flatbed cars.

I saw one on the back of a semi heading north on 71 a few years ago.

So, John ...

 

We haven't heard a whole lot from you in while (couple of weeks ;) ) ... Is there anything happening on a large scale that we don't know about yet?

 

I'm here. Nothing to report except that I think the city is about to mail letters to the people it wants to have on its "streetcar advisory committee" - for lack of a better phrase. I understand that there will be something like thirty or so people on it.

 

We got a briefing on the possible alignments from the consultants, who accompanied us to Portland last weekend. It's a pretty ambitious plan.

 

My sense is that there is pretty strong support for this -- from the elected officials and from the business community. And downtown/OTR voted 2:1 for the light rail/streetcar plan in 2002. The outlying areas where the projected routes extend to also generally voted in favor of it.

 

Portland's rebirth is, by the way, amazing. I counted six tower cranes working in the Pearl District alone last Saturday. I'd settle for one in Cincinnati right now.

 

Finally, City Cellars, 908 Race Street, is going to start hosting presentations on Mike Moose's truly excellent PPT show on he first and third Thursdays of each month @ 5:30p. If you're a member of a group that might like to see one of these, write me @ [email protected].

John gave our class an incredble lecture today and included a lot of interesting facts about the benefits of light rail and public transit in general . He was by far the best speaker we've had! He's very inspiring.

 

 

After looking at those slides I want to go to Portland and see first hand how well it works. Vintage or modern, I think street cars in Cincinnati would spur tons of development and people's negative perceptions of the city not being progressive would definitely change.

^modern only. modern modern modern.  vintage wouldn't lead to half the development modern would.

Well you have those who prefer vintage and those who prefer modern. From a lecture I attended last year, your older generation will prefer the vintage over the modern but will still ride the modern just as well - it's just a matter of taste. For what it's worth, the younger generation tend to fall for the modern over the vintage and actually look *down* upon the vintage. Why? Who knows...

Thomas do you have any figures showing how the design of the car effects development? I guess I like the modern designs better but vintage ones would fit the context of over the rhine better.

none.  however, we need to bill the streetcars as a viable mode of transportation and not just a cute touristy thing.  cincinnati needs to feel not only like we are making progress, but convince the people who believe that we aren't even capable of making progress. 

 

We want a modern streetcar system, not some throwback trolleys.  Trolleys would be great for Savannah or Charleston, but Cincinnati needs a mass transit system looking to the future.  Streetcars are in many ways light rail lite, a cheap way of introducing suburbanites to mass transit.  we start with a small modern system and work from there. 

 

we could always add trolleys later.

Thomas do you have any figures showing how the design of the car effects development? I guess I like the modern designs better but vintage ones would fit the context of over the rhine better.

 

The other thing you'd want to know is, "How available are authentic vintage streetcars?" And I think the answer is, "Not very". The person whom I most respect in the transit business, who now manages light rail in a big U.S. city, said, "Don't bother" when I told him that the vintage streetcar salesman had come to see me. Remember, you want this to be car-competitive. Old Milan-style cars, charming as they are, probably aren't going to move the meter much in this climate. On the other hand, I'm often wrong.

i would also assume the old cars either have to carry fewer people or have a larger turning radius because they aren't articulated.  Also handicap access would be an issue.

 

remember the streetcars will be in the cbd otr and cuf.

i would also assume the old cars either have to carry fewer people or have a larger turning radius because they aren't articulated.  Also handicap access would be an issue.

 

remember the streetcars will be in the cbd otr and cuf.

 

All that, plus they're not very comfortable.

That makes sense.

Well wait a minute. Just because it is 'vintage' doesn't equate it to non-handicap-accessible or un-comfortable. How do we want to coin vintage -- as in an old relic from the 1930s that has been restored? Or a modern replica? For the former, there would be cost issues associated with restoring a vintage classic -- along with handicap-accessibility, etc. With the latter, those issues would be put aside and might be cheaper.

I have no doubt that a newly manufactured vintage streetcar replica is cheaper than a modern streetcar, just as a newly manufactured twin-engine prop airplane is cheaper than an executive jet. Which would you rather have?

I would prefer something of this nature:

 

Not this:

 

or this:

 

 

The whole idea is to get people comfortable with transit.  Therefore, I think we need something clean/sleak (like the new metro bus design).  Appearance will be everything when it comes down to someone deciding to either walk or hop on board for the first time.  Match it up with the new metro logo and design scheme with a modern car, and we'll be golden!

Funny, David Crowley and I stood at the intersection in the top photo late last Saturday afternoon, talking about the streetcar and taking pictures. He's a believer now. Actually, he alway was. But not he better understands the arguments in favor of it. Tough not to be passionate about it once you've been there.

That yellow pcc car in the photo is beautiful.

I actually prefer a modern light-rail system dotted with modern light-rail passenger cars. Having ridden both, I've seen my fair share of ugly 'vintage' vehicles -- both in light-rail and buses.

Here is the manufacturer's site of the modern streetcars in Portland:

 

http://www.skoda.cz/skoda-holding/products/c31699/low-floor-tramcar-10-t-aid727.html

 

This site is short with hard facts, some others I dug up tonight:

 

Max speed: 31mph

Capacity: 96 (crush) 

Multi-car consists: No.  The cars do have couplers so that they can be towed by other streetcars if they become disabled, but they cannot be operated as multi-car consists as do the green line trolleys in Boston.

Light Rail compatibility: No, at least in Portland, because the streetcars cannot survive a head-on collision with MAX vehicles.  This is because the MAX vehicles have some sort of internal bracing with defends them from each other but would scalp the streetcars.  With another type of internal bracing, another type of light rail vehicle could operate on the same track as the Skoda streetcars, also assuming the light rail vehicles had the same platforms (and starting a light rail system from scratch, it could probably be done). 

 

Here is a two-vehicle consist on the Boston Green Line:

 

Unfortunately they have to use two drivers when they run these pairs because the doors need to be controlled by individual drivers.  I don't think this is so much because the pairs can't be coupled to do so as it is the sharply curved platforms in downtown Boston that prevent drivers from seeing the loading and unloading at the back of the train. 

wouldn't it be better for cincinnati to operate them uncoupled to cut the headways in half

^Well the Skoda cars can't run coupled as I mentioned, so it's a moot point.  The Boston lines are technically light rail even though they began as streetcar lines 100+ years ago.  The track is now heavier gauge and there are many grade crossings but no street traffic shared with cars.  You definitely feel the street vibrate when they roll by.  They typically run in the middle of major arterials fenced off from traffic.  This causes a lot of side streets to not be able to turn left onto main streets but it's already so confusing to get around in Boston it's just one more thing. 

 

There are four surface trolley lines which all converge on a single subway line in Boston so the headways are so close that the cars get bunched up in the subway and there are often two or three loading and unloading at any particular station at the same time.  You wait a lot just to enter stations due to the congestion.  That's why the multi-car consists are advantageous there.  The vehicles from the four branches all turn around at different stations within the subway too so if you're traveling northbound you can't just jump on any car you want. 

 

^What are the capacities of the Skoda cars to climb hills?  I think it's important to address how to connect the system from the River to Clifton, even though it obviously won't all be built in one shot.

^What are the capacities of the Skoda cars to climb hills?  I think it's important to address how to connect the system from the River to Clifton, even though it obviously won't all be built in one shot.

 

Basically, this is a question of the length of the vehicle -- the longer the vehicle, the more dead weight and greater live loads due to its carrying more passengers. So that's the tradeoff. If we're willing to settle for shorter cars, the Skodas can climb just about any hill except, say, Straight Street or Sycamore.

Personally, I hope whatever is selected will be able to climb West Clifton, where the ruling grade is 9.6%. I really think Ludlow via Clifton ought to be the first destination out of the basin. I'm also intrigued by Riverside Drive to Lunken for the ease of construction and operation. There's a lot of land near Lunken just waiting to be better connected. To me, Riverside Drive looks like a linear Pearl District.

Here is a 7 minute video of the Portland streetcar in action. 

 

 

 

So John are people talking about using Eastern Ave. or the Oasis tracks?  Is Lunken Airport itself considered a major destination or would running up to Mt. Lookout Square (same amount of track) be wiser?

 

Cool video. I think working something like that into Michael Moose's presentation would help show off what we're talking about for those that can't make the trip.

Here is a 7 minute video of the Portland streetcar in action.  

 

 

 

So John are people talking about using Eastern Ave. or the Oasis tracks?  Is Lunken Airport itself considered a major destination or would running up to Mt. Lookout Square (same amount of track) be wiser?

 

 

They're thinking of using the tracks. Better a streetcar than a diesel train there. With respect to going to Mt. Lookout Square, I doubt that would happen in the early-going. The problem is, Mt. Lookout Square is already fully developed, so there's no upside, nothing to TIF even if a TIF district existed there. You need to think in terms of raw land or built-out places with extreme density and occupancy like, say, Clifton Heights.

 

Good catch on the video. I just sent it to a million people. Sorry if it ricochets back to some of you on this list.

Hey everyone I just became a member of the... something Mayor's Ad Hoc transportation something... I really don't know the official name, but we have our first meeting on monday, any concerns you would care for me to address?

Hey everyone I just became a member of the... something Mayor's Ad Hoc transportation something... I really don't know the official name, but we have our first meeting on monday, any concerns you would care for me to address?

 

Here's a suggestion: try to divert him from talking about his "Cadillac transportation plan". It conveys the wrong message on many levels. And congratulations on your appointment.

i agree, streetcars streetcars streetcars.  analogizing mass transit to a luxury, fuel ineffecient car never made sense.

 

one suggestion I have heard, [not from the group] has been to create a 'party bus' that would go from mt. lookout to hyde park square to oakley on fri and sat nights, I am skeptical at best.

 

one suggestion I have heard, [not from the group] has been to create a 'party bus' that would go from mt. lookout to hyde park square to oakley on fri and sat nights, I am skeptical at best.

 

Me too.

the headways would have to be in the single digits, and I really can't remember last time i was in mt. lookout and i though, hey lets go to hyde park. 

 

I really think we need to hit up MADD for an endorsement for a streetcar system, cuts down on DUIs for people driving from CUF to OTR or the CBD. 

 

 

 

 

^I don't know, if you get anyone thinking that you are building the streetcars for drunks, you may lose some public support.

 

Although that is indeed an added benefit, for both potential drunk drivers and those who have to share the road with them.

^good point.  lets just file that one under collateral benefits. 

 

 

Lets have a straw poll on the cincinnati 'party bus' that I brought up a few posts ago

^They had something called Care Cab back in the 80's right when MADD started up, it was a free cab service (I don't know who paid for it) which was supposed to be for people just leaving bars but instead people (like my uncles) used it to go bar hopping for free on it.  Also I read over in England that they've shut down the last trains to towns surrounding various cities because it got too out of hand.  The hooligans did a lot of damage to the vehicles themselves, unscrewed signs and seats, took off the roof hatches, urinated on the floor, etc. 

 

>They're thinking of using the tracks. Better a streetcar than a diesel train there.

 

Would they use the existing tracks or lay new ones?  Over there there is a lot of opportunity to easily add stops as residences or offices are built but it doesn't seem like there is much over there currently to attract riders. 

 

Would they use the existing tracks or lay new ones?  Over there there is a lot of opportunity to easily add stops as residences or offices are built but it doesn't seem like there is much over there currently to attract riders. 

 

You'd have to lay new track. The existing track isn't good enough for passenger service. Probably some new structures too.

Basically, this is a question of the length of the vehicle -- the longer the vehicle, the more dead weight and greater live loads due to its carrying more passengers. So that's the tradeoff. If we're willing to settle for shorter cars, the Skodas can climb just about any hill except, say, Straight Street or Sycamore.

Personally, I hope whatever is selected will be able to climb West Clifton, where the ruling grade is 9.6%. I really think Ludlow via Clifton ought to be the first destination out of the basin. I'm also intrigued by Riverside Drive to Lunken for the ease of construction and operation. There's a lot of land near Lunken just waiting to be better connected. To me, Riverside Drive looks like a linear Pearl District.

 

Well that's good news.  I see longer streetcars for commutes in the Basin, shorter but more frequent streetcars going between the River and Ludlow, perhaps.

 

I've never seen the Pearl District, and I'll never call Eastern Avenue R-v-rs-de Drive (nothing personal to anyone involved, but I simply refuse) but from what I can tell from the type of development that's going on in the East End it seems to me that they need to zone it for more density or something soon because it's fast getting tapped out.

 

one suggestion I have heard, [not from the group] has been to create a 'party bus' that would go from mt. lookout to hyde park square to oakley on fri and sat nights, I am skeptical at best.

 

Me too.

 

The current route of the 17 goes up Main, thru Clifton & then thru Northside.

It already hits some party areas.

 

one suggestion I have heard, [not from the group] has been to create a 'party bus' that would go from mt. lookout to hyde park square to oakley on fri and sat nights, I am skeptical at best.

 

New to the blog so bear with me. I tend to agree with John S. that the Cadillac connotation has to be removed as it sends the wrong message. IMHO the single most important theme for this committee should be educating the public on the value of (Transit Oriented Development). The city needs to follow the successful model of Portland as the benchmark...period. There is a level of ignorance and pessimism around Cincy and if the facts are not presented effectively than the naysayers will try to squash it.

Cincinnati CityBeat

Feb 28. 2007

 

Streetcar Named Development

 

The Portland model could bring billions to downtown Cincinnati

 

By Kevin Osborne

 

 

 

Photo By Adam J. Benjamin/Courtesy Michael Moose/Glaserworks

Streetcars, such as this one in Portland, could soon serve Cincinnati. Advocates say streetcars help economic development in ways that buses don't — and they're sexier, too.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Attracting people with a mix of income levels to live downtown is necessary for returning the urban core to vibrancy, Cincinnati leaders agree, and they routinely tout that keeping young professionals from moving away to other cities is a vital part of that strategy.

 

In reality, though, with new condominiums downtown selling for an average price of about $230,000 -- and many priced between $400,000 to $1 million or more -- most young professionals who want to be homeowners find themselves priced out of the market.