1 hour ago, thomasbw said:

On Tuesday 10/27 ridership was up 14% per hour and down -9% compared to 2019

It was up 14% per hour but still down 9% overall for the day?  I am not sure I follow

In 2019 the streetcar ran 630am to midnight

In 2020 the streetcar is running 8am to 10pm 

 

 

42 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

In 2019 the streetcar ran 630am to midnight

In 2020 the streetcar is running 8am to 10pm 

 

 

So fewer daily riders, but better efficiency of use?

Are they gonna remove the fare machines from the stations soon?? I hope so 

Since they sell advertising on the back and sides of the TVMs, I don't expect them to be removed any time soon. Since the streetcar has the exact same type of TVMs as Metro, it would be great if Metro could eventually reprogram them to sell bus fare and move them to neighborhood transit centers or major stops on popular bus routes.

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So fewer daily riders, but better efficiency of use?

 

The question is, what would the ridership be like in the morning and at night if it were running? I would imagine the 7 to 8 am hour would do well during the week and the 10 pm to midnight slot would do well on Friday and Saturday nights.

As long as the pandemic is going on, bars are closing at 10pm, and many businesses aren't open at all, I don't see much use in running it past 10pm right now. Especially going into winter when ridership is naturally lower.

16 minutes ago, taestell said:

As long as the pandemic is going on, bars are closing at 10pm, and many businesses aren't open at all, I don't see much use in running it past 10pm right now. Especially going into winter when ridership is naturally lower.

Agreed, even during the week, with so many people working from home, there is not as much push to be at the office at 8AM anymroe.

Yesterday was the first day since the streetcar resumed operations where 2020 ridership was HIGHER than ridership from the same day in 2019. Currently, the streetcar is only operating 8am-10pm instead of 6:30am-midnight in 2019. On a per-hour basis, ridership was up 27%.

 

 

Cincinnati Streetcar gets state grant, its first since Kasich yanked dollars to take the project to Uptown

 

The state of Ohio has awarded the Cincinnati Bell Connector a grant that will boost the underlying financial situation of a project whose budget is a perennial political football.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/11/09/streetcar-gets-state-grant.html

 

For November, ridership per hour is higher in 2020 than in 2019. For comparison, Metro's back to running a full schedule and their local ridership is down 52% and express is down 80%.

 

Per vehicle hour each streetcar is averaging 22 passengers compared to 10 passengers per hour for the average Metro bus on local routes

 

.

 

 

The second Sunday where ridership was down 53% had a home Bengals game in 2019. 

Going fare free is really helping weekday ridership. After the pandemic and if they can fix some really easy light timing issues, our ridership is going to be much higher- 

 

10 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

if they can fix some really easy light timing issues

 

I was checking out the streetcar's social media accounts the other day and noticed someone asked (paraphrasing), "Why does the streetcar stop at every station even if no one has requested a stop and no one is waiting to get on? It slows down an already slow ride."

 

It was refreshing to see someone who appeared to be a normal person and not an urban planning nerd ask this question.

 

I do hold out hope that eventually we will get some new city and DOTE leadership that cares about transit and active transportation, and these signal timing problems will be fixed.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

"Why does the streetcar stop at every station even if no one has requested a stop and no one is waiting to get on? It slows down an already slow ride."

 

Did they change it to stop at all stops so nobody has to touch the stop buttons in the cars if they want to get off?  Do they also open all the doors automatically as well for the same reason?  Basically operating like a subway car rather than a bus. 

Ridership for the Cincinnati Streetcar is down less than any other streetcar system in the country. [Note: All other systems are Sep data (most recent in National Transit Database). Cincy's is for Nov due to not operating a complete month in Sept and Blink skewing 2019's Oct numbers)

November is going well compared to 2019, especially in light of virtually every other streetcar system in the country losing well over half of their ridership 

1 hour ago, thomasbw said:

 

Can't wait for the pandemic to finally be over and see the ridership skyrocket. And then maybe Jason Williams will be fired and an Enquirer column will open up for an actual smart person.

To be fair, KC's streetcar has 2.2 million riders each year so even with 79% drop off it still has higher ridership than Cincinnati's streetcar in a normal year. That being said if we can keep the streetcar free and things like Opening Day, Red's games with fans, etc. are happening next year with a vaccinated public our numbers should skyrocket. It's insane that it took a pandemic to get some of these changes made but better late than never. 

Weekday ridership is doing well compared to 2019 

November ridership is in. Overall down 27.5% compared to 2019 which is still the best in the country of any new streetcar system (most recent data available is October, OKC hasn't reported data). 

 

If you look at a day by day comparison, ridership is down 23.6% but up 1.4% per service hour. 

 

 

 

In October the streetcar had more than twice the ridership of all of Metro's 18 Express Route's combined. 

They finally got a no fare required mesasge on the fare machines...but the fare machines are still there.  Which no doubt would be confusing tourists, if we had tourists this year. 

 

 

Now that they have posted adequate signage indicating that the streetcar is free, I see no reason they shouldn't turn the TVMs back on and reprogram them to sell bus fare and all-day Metro and Metro+TANK passes.

25 minutes ago, taestell said:

Now that they have posted adequate signage indicating that the streetcar is free, I see no reason they shouldn't turn the TVMs back on and reprogram them to sell bus fare and all-day Metro and Metro+TANK passes.

I think it would be better to re-deploy them to Metro Park and Rides, Government Square, and major hubs like Peeble's Corner or any future transit centers. 

 

Put up some kiosks where the TVMs were at streetcar stops and sell ads on them. 

42 minutes ago, taestell said:

Now that they have posted adequate signage indicating that the streetcar is free, I see no reason they shouldn't turn the TVMs back on and reprogram them to sell bus fare and all-day Metro and Metro+TANK passes.

 

That red digital display is actually on the ticket machine.  I heard from no less a luminary than former streetcar boss Paul Grether that the remote control that controls the station displays may have been physically lost when control of the system switched from SORTA to the city.  Also, because the city saved money by not hard-wiring the whole system back when it was built (and instead depended on wi-fi that has been a constant source of technical problems), each station's message board needs to be programmed individually with the remote control. 

 

Presumably a new remote control can be found and some knucklehead can be tasked with spending 4-5 hours walking to each individual station and reprogramming the display so that it says "the streetcar is always free to ride".  However, I suspect that when and if this happens, there will be misspellings and inconsistent phrasing from one station to the next.  

 

A couple of big "ifs" here but this is something that I've been thinking about a bit.

Apparently the Biden administration is going to be big on rail transit and I think if Cincy can get a reasonable city council the streetcar could be expanded as part of a comprehensive rail plan. The more successful lines in the US are linear rather than the circulator that Cincinnati currently has. Maybe a new linear route could be added running from Union Terminal then heading east down the median of Ezzard Charles, connecting with the main loop at 14th st near Music hall and incorporating a double-track route up vine to UC and the Zoo. 

 

With the news that the new Western Hills Viaduct is being built with rail in mind, I don't think we'll ever see trains in the subway tunnels. I think the more realistic (and cheaper) plan would be to use street-level light rail downtown if available. The median of Central Pkwy would be great for this purpose like we have here in SLC.

 

 

27 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

Apparently the Biden administration is going to be big on rail transit and I think if Cincy can get a reasonable city council the streetcar could be expanded as part of a comprehensive rail plan. The more successful lines in the US are linear rather than the circulator that Cincinnati currently has.

 

This is often overlooked when comparing our system to Kansas City. It is always pointed out that Cincinnati's line is longer (for now). That is true in the sense that we have more track length (3.6 miles vs. 2.2 miles). But KC's system is linear. Walking end to end is 1.9 miles. Walking from Rhinegeist to the Banks is 1.7 miles. So we have more track, but our line is actually shorter. We could've made Vine Street two-way and run the streetcar from Findlay and Vine to Second and Vine and it would've only been 1.3 miles and been just as effective. Roughly the same amount of track length that we currently have could've taken us up as far as Clifton Gaslight, or created a Northern Kentucky loop that incorporated Covington and Newport. 

Kansas City has 2 big centers of activity that line up in a straight line with no steep hills in the way connected by a wide road (3 lanes in each direction) named “Main St.” Their route and proposed extension routing were always kind of obvious compared to ours...

12 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

Kansas City has 2 big centers of activity that line up in a straight line with no steep hills in the way connected by a wide road (3 lanes in each direction) named “Main St.” Their route and proposed extension routing were always kind of obvious compared to ours...

 

The original streetcar route proposed in 2006-7 was linear - Race and Elm from Findlay Market down to The Banks.  The route was changed to what ended up being built because 1. The Banks was being developed east of the Freedom Center 2. the Main and Walnut overpasses were built to accommodate light rail in the 1990s but the Race and Elm overpasses were not and so would have to have their decks rebuilt 3. connectivity to Government Square and all of the bus transfers.

 

As I have suggested here in the past, the original Race/Elm alignment could still be built, turning the system into a lowercase "h", with the OTR portion from Washington Park north to Henry St. being the "trunk", with 2x the service, and then two "branches" downtown.  This expansion could be built pretty inexpensively since it wouldn't involve much new track and the maintenance facility has already been built.  

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

As I have suggested here in the past, the original Race/Elm alignment could still be built, turning the system into a lowercase "h",

Do you think that expansion would have the most/best impact considering the cost? Or would it be better to use that money to expand in a different direction?

^I don't know - a professional study would be needed to determine both general strategies and specifics.  However, it's pretty obvious that the basin won't require any bridges, tunnels, or other special engineering to traverse, plus it's the densest part of the whole region with the zoning to enable a much higher density.  

 

That said, the thing I like about Race/Elm is that it creates a straight line connecting a possible Ohio River bridge and a tunnel at McMicken due north to Clifton Ave. at Hughes High School.  

 

Also, I forgot to mention above that a possible expansion of the convention center no doubt motivated them to shift the streetcar from Race/Elm to Main/Walnut.  Here we are 15~ years later and the expansion still hasn't been specified and 1-2 councilmen are going to jail over it.  But once it's finalized then there should be a way to incorporate a streetcar expansion in an integrated way.  

 

Also, another "cheap" streetcar extension would be across Liberty St. from Dalton to Main and Walnut.  The tracks could travel in a protected center reservation.  

 

 

 

4 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

With the news that the new Western Hills Viaduct is being built with rail in mind

 

FYI, the only part of the WHV that is taking rail into consideration is the load bearing capacity of the bridge. It does not appear that the deck will be designed for a lane to be easily replaced with a rail line and the intersections are not even designed with a bus-only lane.

2 hours ago, jwulsin said:

Do you think that expansion would have the most/best impact considering the cost? Or would it be better to use that money to expand in a different direction?

For most cost effective expansion, this might be a contender 

 

 

About halfway in, December ridership is down 5% per hour compared to 2019, but if you take out the free Saturdays in 2019, ridership is up 22% per hour.

Can't wait to see how good it is when things are back to normal or even slightly closer to normal.

33 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

Can't wait to see how good it is when things are back to normal or even slightly closer to normal.

I think ridership is going to be very strong once things are open again and evens are happening.

 

Weekday ridership is strong even without all the downtown office workers back. 

 

Between Reds, FC Cincinnati and Bengals, that's 108 homes games a year. 

 

21 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

I think ridership is going to be very strong once things are open again and evens are happening.

 

Weekday ridership is strong even without all the downtown office workers back. 

 

Between Reds, FC Cincinnati and Bengals, that's 108 homes games a year. 

 

I don't know when it will be actually possible, but once it is socially acceptable, the number of people going downtown to eat out, go to the bars, go to a show will skyrocket to above 2019 levels for a few months too; adding even more wind to the streetcar sails.

On 12/14/2020 at 12:00 PM, thebillshark said:

Kansas City has 2 big centers of activity that line up in a straight line with no steep hills in the way connected by a wide road (3 lanes in each direction) named “Main St.” Their route and proposed extension routing were always kind of obvious compared to ours...

 

Right, we have constraints they don't have. But making Vine Street two way and having a linear line up and down Vine would've been a lot simpler than have the north and south directions run on two different streets. I guess there's an argument to be made that it spreads out the new development, but I think it also confuses tourists who might not be familiar with the city.

20 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

But making Vine Street two way and having a linear line up and down Vine would've been a lot simpler than have the north and south directions run on two different streets.

 

That's something I advocated for years ago (I think it was lost in the great UO server crash).  The current route can be functional as it is with simple signal prioritization and a few tweaks here and there.  What can't be fixed however is the awful way it's set up to connect with a Vine Street extension up the hill.  With layover time at the MOF and the turnout to Vine at Elder it could easily take 10 minutes to get from Elm/Findlay Market to Vine and McMicken, all after a frustrating four-block detour.  If the route was two-way on Vine, it'd be there already.  Coming back down the hill to Findlay on the other hand works fine as it is.  If Findlay Street was the top end of the current loop, instead of Henry, and all connections could be made to Vine via Findlay in both directions that'd be much simpler, but Findlay is such a car sewer already that'd be a tough sell. 

I think this might be the answer with a transit hub at Findlay Playground. 

 

Pros-

 

More coverage of the basin 

6 minute headways downtown

More direct route to Uptown

 

Cons-

 

Cost 

Complicated trackwork at Central and Walnut

 

A quick glance at Google Earth and it seems like there are tracks already laid heading toward Vine at the corners of Elder and Findlay. You could have the Blue Line terminate there and extend it up Vine with the northern terminus in the turnaround near Shields St. where there's already a ready-made place in the zoo parking lot. The tracks could be double tracked in the middle of the street or you could do single track with sidings. I know I use Salt Lake as an example a lot but the S Line streetcar  here uses sidings at stations and strategic parts of the route.

13 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

A quick glance at Google Earth and it seems like there are tracks already laid heading toward Vine at the corners of Elder and Findlay.

 

Correct, those track stubs were installed so that we could build Phase 1B without disrupting the operations of the original downtown/OTR loop. If we wanted to change the route from what was planned before, we'd need to shut down the system for some period of time to tie into the tracks somewhere else.

19 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

Correct, those track stubs were installed so that we could build Phase 1B without disrupting the operations of the original downtown/OTR loop. If we wanted to change the route from what was planned before, we'd need to shut down the system for some period of time to tie into the tracks somewhere else.

Not necessarily the whole system, you can run the Over-the-Rhine portion independently if you needed to do track work to tie in at Main and Walnut. Our ridership is so seasonal, that if you can time that work for January and February, the lost ridership would be minimal. 

That's true. I find it interesting how some cities make design decisions that allow for future expansions and/or partial system operation.

 

Because the route we selected crosses itself at 12th & Race, we were able to inexpensively install the extra track that allows for the "OTR loop" and "downtown loop" to operate independently if we need to. If the city had gone with the straight Race/Elm option Jake mentioned, I'm not sure if they would have gone to the extra expense to install some mid-route crossover track. If not, any blockage or track construction would have shut down the entire system.

 

Kansas City did not leave a stub track at the south end of their first phase's northbound track meaning that they will have to shut down the first phase for some time to connect the extension. It's really puzzling because they could have installed a switch as part of the first phase for not much extra expense. They also don't appear to have a crossover track anywhere along the route where streetcars could turn back, which means that they would have to shut down the entire system during this work.

1 hour ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

A quick glance at Google Earth and it seems like there are tracks already laid heading toward Vine at the corners of Elder and Findlay. You could have the Blue Line terminate there and extend it up Vine...

 

That's basically what the phase 2 plan already is.  The problem, as I mentioned earlier, is that to go up Vine you have to take Elm all the way up to Henry, double back onto Race, where they then have a layover of indeterminate time, turn on Elder, then finally turn up Vine.  That's so indirect and slow it'll really turn people off without serious prioritization, which is no guarantee.  

1 hour ago, jjakucyk said:

 

That's basically what the phase 2 plan already is.  The problem, as I mentioned earlier, is that to go up Vine you have to take Elm all the way up to Henry, double back onto Race, where they then have a layover of indeterminate time, turn on Elder, then finally turn up Vine.  That's so indirect and slow it'll really turn people off without serious prioritization, which is no guarantee.  

 

The one way around this would be to build a new northbound single track on Vine St. between 12th St. and Green St.  This would be about 2,200 feet of track just for northbound streetcars headed to UC. with two or three stations.  The southbound streetcars coming down the hill could divert at Elder St. per the original plan and use the existing but unused turnout to turn south and share the existing Race St. tracks with the existing route. 

 

If our current route is extended northwesterly on McMicken St. and then across Central Parkway to Bank St. (which I think makes a lot more sense than creating a branch off the existing line just for the West End) then the two branches will diverge decisively at Findlay Market and not be more-or-less redundant.  

 

 

I just doctored an old drawing to illustrate the concept.  Keep in mind that a block of non-revenue track would be built on Elder St. to enable a turnaround per the original plan but I didn't include it here in order to simplify the route concept. 

 

For a UC-bound streetcar, the original plan using Elm St. and Elder St. would be 6,400 feet of track.  The Vine St. "shortcut would be 2,700 feet.  So a distance savings of 3,700 feet plus many more traffic signals. 

 

A cheaper alternative would be to build a cross track between Elm and Vine on Green St., cutting off 3,000 feet of travel north to Henry St. and back down, but it would still be significantly longer than the Vine St. shortcut and would have more stop lights (Race St. twice, for starters, where it's tough to say which streetcar should have signal priority). 

Edited December 16, 20204 yr by jmecklenborg

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around two things.

1. Why is having a turnaround at Findlay, Race, Elder block so bad? With signal priority it shouldn't be a big deal and you can share the Findlay Market station. 

 

2. Why would any plan to take the line up Vine deviate from Vine/Jefferson? By making the downhill tracks go down any other street other than Vine you negate the advantage of a linear route. 

 

I think if you can't fit a double-track line up Vine you could set up a single track line with double-tracks at stations. You really don't even need a turnaround at the northern terminus either since the trains are double-ended. If you are going to deviate from a linear design, I think @thomasbw outline works best. I'd like to see Union Terminal added to any extension plans.