I'm loving that this is fare free, but there are still major issues (as we've discussed) holding this thing back. 

 

So far in 2021, my wife and I are batting .500 in catching the streetcar without a 15 minute wait this year.  The two times we had to wait 15+ minutes, the ETA clock wasn't updating (or the streetcar was stuck in bad traffic).  There's loads of frustration from the regular people just trying to use this thing, and for out-of-towners it is embarrassing.  We left the Reds game yesterday a bit early, and when we got to the Banks station there were a few Giants fans waiting there.  The ETA was 12 minutes, which is fine, I guess.  But after 10 minutes, it hadn't budged.  And finally the clock started moving as normal.  Most of these fans waited 20+ minutes to catch a streetcar 3 or 4 stops to their hotels... In a city that cares, this would be unacceptable. The proposed changes that were studied for 4 years need to be implemented ASAP.

Edited May 18, 20214 yr by 10albersa

 

F-in' Cranley.

Rode the streetcar for the first time in well over year the other day. 

 

I know it was only $2, but making it free really made it a no brainer to use for so many more trips. Used it to go to a day game at GAPB. But, for example, when you have 4 people, that's $8. So it starts to make more sense pay to park by the ballpark rather than park to the north and streetcar down like I did.  Or you might walk from 2nd to Coffee Emporium rather than deal with a ticket.  Not to mention that the machines were the slowest and worse machines I have used on any system. But for free? It makes so much sense to hop on and off all over the core. I mean, it made sense before at $2, but now it's a no brainer.

 

And it was well patronized in the middle of a weekday. There were some older folks visiting downtown and clearly taking it for the first time. It seemed like an enjoyable experience for them. 

Edited May 26, 20214 yr by greenville2

5 hours ago, greenville2 said:

Rode the streetcar for the first time in well over year the other day. 

 

I know it was only $2, but making it free really made it a no brainer to use for so many more trips. Used it to go to a day game at GAPB. But, for example, when you have 4 people, that's $8. So it starts to make more sense pay to park by the ballpark rather than park to the north and streetcar down like I did.  Or you might walk from 2nd to Coffee Emporium rather than deal with a ticket.  Not to mention that the machines were the slowest and worse machines I have used on any system. But for free? It makes so much sense to hop on and off all over the core. I mean, it made sense before at $2, but now it's a no brainer.

 

And it was well patronized in the middle of a weekday. There were some older folks visiting downtown and clearly taking it for the first time. It seemed like an enjoyable experience for them. 

Ridership last Monday (Reds out of town) was higher than any day in January 

I saw the Mohawk Neighborhood plan was finalized and passed by City Council. One of the interesting plans I saw was this.

Quote

Goal: Develop Mohawk as an innovative and creative district that
addresses challenges and implements big ideas.
Strategy 1: Establish an aerial tram/incline up to Bellevue Park
and include a bar or restaurant to symbolize Cincinnati’s rich
history of inclines while also serving as an innovative
transportation option.
• Collaborate with the Department of Transportation and
Engineering and the Parks Department to devise a plan for
the aerial tram implementation.

This plan would create an incline from Henry Street to Bellevue Park. 

 

Probably will not happen but would be interesting. 

 

I really hope during the budget fight we see council try to get money to study the Uptown Extension. 

Edited May 26, 20214 yr by stashua123

Ridership was updated through yesterday. This past Saturday had the highest ridership on the Streetcar since December 14th, 2019.

 

The entire history chart of ridership shows how the ridership during the week has become to near normal levels. If this trend keeps up, 2021 could exceed 2017 in ridership in my opinion.  

 

1 hour ago, stashua123 said:

I saw the Mohawk Neighborhood plan was finalized and passed by City Council. One of the interesting plans I saw was this.

On a side note, it's disappointing that they are only asking to update the zoning along McMicken. It's bad that we have CC-A and SF-2 in the urban core.

Here's a map of streetcar improvements I think we can reasonably make in a short period of time at low cost. 

 

 

 

Total savings would be about 4 minutes and 45 seconds per vehicle per loop, which would take off-peak wait times to about 12.5 minutes and peak wait times to about 10 minutes. Additional travel time savings could be found in the transit only lanes, but I don't have any way to actually calculate them. 

 

Total capital cost would be $150,000-$200,000 dollars not including the transit lanes. 

Edited May 27, 20214 yr by thomasbw
Converting seconds to minutes

May ridership was up 10% over pre pandemic levels 

 

 

Edited June 2, 20214 yr by thomasbw
Reformatted chart so that pre pandemic column was on the left and current ridership was on the right

Why there may be no streetcar fight before City Council this year

 

Cincinnati’s city administration has proposed fully funding the operations of the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar in the coming fiscal year, which begins July 1, a move that could avoid an election-year fight over the perennial political punching bag.

 

Under the budget released Tuesday, the city would spend $5 million on the streetcar, up 1.2% from fiscal year 2021, when the project only operated with passengers for slightly more than nine months, a continuation of its shuttering by Mayor John Cranley during the first months of the pandemic.

 

The budget would continue the streetcar’s fare-free policy, using federal funds and the streetcar project’s fund balance to pay the bills. It would reduce the streetcar fund’s surplus from $1.1 million to $705,328.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/06/09/cincinnati-streetcar-budget.html

 

A new east-west West End to Walnut Hills streetcar line using Central Parkway as shown raises several interesting possibilities. It could tie into the existing track and create not just one but several new routes. Using Gilbert Avenue to get up the hill could be a more forgiving route (less steep and wider road width to work with) than other options. It would tie in several more Cincinnati landmarks like Union Terminal, the FC Stadium, Casino, Eden Park and the Art Museum to the streetcar network. The FC stadium would be connected to additional parking at Union Terminal and the casino garage. I think the casino is accessible by the current line, but having the line go directly to/through the property might spur development on the open land there and to the south of it. Additional neighborhoods would be added to the network, West End and Walnut Hills directly, Pendleton, Mount Auburn, Mount Adams, East Walnut Hills tangentially. People could use it to access to the bus hub at Government Square. In the future such a line could be expanded northwards along Central Parkway towards the new Western Hills Viaduct, Fairmount, and the Lick Run Greenway in the west and northwards along Woodburn to Evanston, Xavier Univ., and Wasson Way in the east.

 

Negatives would be system downtime and cost to tie new track into the existing system, and the potential for streetcars to get stuck in traffic at various points along the route. Also the grade of the incline at streetcar stop J in the first picture might present a challenge to creating a level stop there.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 20214 yr by thebillshark

This is a great idea, we've already litigated a lot of this route, with the exception of Eden Park, which is so sorely lacking a non-vehicular connection to downtown and even UC.  It's a place that visitors are told to go to, but it isn't necessarily easy to get to.  Also, this would hopefully allow them to close some roads/parking spaces in the park (like they did during the shutdown), because right now, that's the biggest problem with it.

I think NKY and further into the West End/Brighton are the logical places to extend the streetcar (especially if there's a BRT connection or two to Uptown)

 

 

That route shown just doesn't have much development potential. The area of the West End is largely institutional uses or permanent affordable housing. The area through OTR is already served by the streetcar, and the hill going up to Walnut Hills does not have a lot of developable land south of Nassau. I really like the separation to get from Reading to Gilbert, though. I think that's a slick idea, and if we did move the streetcar in that direction, that could save a lot of time on each trip.

 

This would be an additional ~8 miles of track. Our current streetcar is 3.2 3.6 miles. This would probably require an additional 5 or 6 vehicles (maybe a new maintenance facility? I'm not sure the capacity of our current one), and I don't think it would encourage much development overall.

@thebillsharkyou talk about the grade at J but would the grade nearest the casino work? I don't know anything about the limitations of grade on modern streetcar but that would be a fairly substantial downhill followed almost immediately by an uphill. I'm guessing it could be filled in or would be more manageable if it cut across the parking lot but just curious if you looked at that. That whole area is just a pedestrian nightmare and I don't see that changing unless something is done about Gilbert and its many up/downs/overpasses/width/fly routes into downtown, which is for another thread. 

On 6/13/2021 at 8:07 AM, thebillshark said:

A new east-west West End to Walnut Hills streetcar line using Central Parkway as shown raises several interesting possibilities. It could tie into the existing track and create not just one but several new routes. Using Gilbert Avenue to get up the hill could be a more forgiving route (less steep and wider road width to work with) than other options. It would tie in several more Cincinnati landmarks like Union Terminal, the FC Stadium, Casino, Eden Park and the Art Museum to the streetcar network. The FC stadium would be connected to additional parking at Union Terminal and the casino garage. I think the casino is accessible by the current line, but having the line go directly to/through the property might spur development on the open land there and to the south of it. Additional neighborhoods would be added to the network, West End and Walnut Hills directly, Pendleton, Mount Auburn, Mount Adams, East Walnut Hills tangentially. People could use it to access to the bus hub at Government Square. In the future such a line could be expanded northwards along Central Parkway towards the new Western Hills Viaduct, Fairmount, and the Lick Run Greenway in the west and northwards along Woodburn to Evanston, Xavier Univ., and Wasson Way in the east.

 

Negatives would be system downtime and cost to tie new track into the existing system, and the potential for streetcars to get stuck in traffic at various points along the route. Also the grade of the incline at streetcar stop J in the first picture might present a challenge to creating a level stop there.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like this but I think a new route would be best used as the downtown portion of a further light rail system. In a perfect world, you would use the subway tunnels under Central Pkwy but I think that ship has sailed. If Cincinnati/Hamilton County were to propose a light rail line connecting the West Side to the East I think it might have a chance of passing. Let NKY figure out the airport line or run commuter trains on the Cincinnati Southern.

Ridership on America's modern (opened post 2000) streetcars compared to pre-pandemic levels 

 

Now in chart form- 

In terms of Riders Per Hour, the Streetcar is by far the most productive route in the region. 

 

That last graphic is really great, but wow the Route 85 ridership is abysmal and it's only 50 cents. 

 

I didnt even know this route existed.. I can see how the ridership would be pretty low... 

This is the most American bus route I've ever seen... walk two blocks, people!

That route reminds me of my old boss who would always refer to walking to the Banks as going "down the hill" and then going back to downtown as going "up the hill". We would point to Mt. Adams and Mt. Auburn and say "umm that's a hill, this is a slight incline". 

@thomasbwam I missing where you got the June Metro numbers or did you request them? 

 

If the #85 isn't discussed as a potential cut/removal, that's a shame, especially with a newly free streetcar and reported issues with staffing/missed routes. I previously graphed the 85 ridership pre-pandemic and it was decent, but does not show signs of improvement this year. 

 

Edit: graph doesn't have a legend. Black is 2019 KPI data. Red is 2020. I don't have 2021 data by route.

Edited July 14, 20213 yr by shawk
Add typed legend/description

June numbers should be posted on Metro's website today

 

Tuscon went fare free in February of 21 and ridership responded very well. 

 

I think it is reasonable to assume that free fares have roughly doubled Cincinnati's ridership. 

 

 

45 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

 

Tuscon went fare free in February of 21 and ridership responded very well. 

 

I think it is reasonable to assume that free fares have roughly doubled Cincinnati's ridership. 

 

 

 

And yet crickets from the Enquirer. We got weekly updates on ridership when it wasn't performing well.

Cincinnati's population in 2020- 309,317. Since their invention in the 19th century we've only grown population in decades where we operated electric streetcars. 

Streetcar ridership was down 1.8% compared to 2019, but 2019's ridership was also boosted by the Ride Free with Your Reds Ticket promotion (estimated ridership increase was 4082, which means ridership was up 6% if you take out that). Compared to 2018 ridership was up 17% and compared to 2017, ridership was up 6.5%. 

 

Nationally, most modern streetcar systems are down about 50%, so free fares are clearly working. 

 

The only three streetcar systems that have posted gains over pre-pandemic ridership levels are Cincinnati, Tampa and Tuscon. All three of them recently* went free.

 

 

*Tampa went free before the pandemic, but the true impact of going free takes a while to get 'baked in' to the data. 

US Modern Streetcar Systems ridership as percentage of pre-pandemic levels  

What's the likelihood of Cincinnati getting some Federal money to expand the streetcar if/when congress passes the stimulus/infrastructure plan?

Just now, JaceTheAce41 said:

What's the likelihood of Cincinnati getting some Federal money to expand the streetcar if/when congress passes the stimulus/infrastructure plan?

It'll be there, but will anyone ask for it? Certainly not Mann, maybe Pureval.  But this also depends on the makeup of council after the Nov elections.

8 hours ago, 10albersa said:

It'll be there, but will anyone ask for it? Certainly not Mann, maybe Pureval.  But this also depends on the makeup of council after the Nov elections.

Will there be money for it? Everything I have read involving rail and public transit makes it sound like it's just maintenance and modernization.

On 9/8/2021 at 9:53 AM, 10albersa said:

It'll be there, but will anyone ask for it? Certainly not Mann, maybe Pureval.  But this also depends on the makeup of council after the Nov elections.

 

Who would comprise the most transit/rail-friendly slate? Do any candidates have vision and understanding of the planning and financing tools needed to grow our transit/rail infrastructure?

22 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

Who would comprise the most transit/rail-friendly slate? Do any candidates have vision and understanding of the planning and financing tools needed to grow our transit/rail infrastructure?

So far, I have only seen 2 candidates specifically mention reducing our reliance on automobiles within their platform: Galen G. Gordon (C), and Reggie Harris (D)

Neither of them specifically mention expanding the streetcar but they do talk about expanding transit service and access. Harris even mentions how zoning impacts transportation.

Mark Jeffreys only briefly mentions transit, but does heavily talk about expanding walkability and bikeability.

There are plenty of other candidates who mention pedestrian safety and/or poor infrastructure maintenance which indicates to me that they are listening but not leading on this topic. At most, they are looking at band-aids, not thorough changes to our transportation network.

It's a shame that we lost Derek Bauman as a candidate. I understand the reason why he had to drop out, but he would have been a big voice for public transit on Council.

Five years ago today, I flew Ultimate Air from Cleveland to Cincinnati to partake in the grand opening ceremonies of the Cincinnati Streetcar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd like some feedback on my streetcar expansion crayon lines. As I see it, the key problem we face with expanding the streetcar is that the two most logical targets, UC/Uptown and Covington/Newport, have significant obstacles: the steep climb up Vine or the hard sell of an Uptown tunnel, and political boundaries across state lines. Yet staying in the Downtown Basin has limited possibilities. 

 

At the same time, as far as I'm aware, the Western Hills Viaduct rebuild plans haven't been finalized. This project, and its potential federal funding, is a once in a generation opportunity to redefine this cornerstone of our region. 

 

My proposal is to extend the streetcar along McMicken until the bend near the Viaduct, where it would continue onto the bridge to Fairmont. This could either be an extension from the current line on Race and Elm (blue line below) or an extended Main and Walnut line (red line). This extension (pink line) would follow the same playbook as the original streetcar line: connect downtown with underdeveloped areas with a lot of potential. In this case, it would connect the McMicken hill district and a new Fairmont, redefined by the Lick Run Greenway.

(The green line represents a possible future Uptown Tunnel route)

 

 

 

If enough funding is secured, the line could be extended to the Western Hills Shopping Center, where a transit center could be built.

 

The benefits I see of this plan are:

• Avoids the political difficulty of the Uptown and NKY extensions
• Builds political support on the West Side, which has been a significant barrier in previous expansion efforts
• Connects two neighborhoods with a ton of redevelopment potential
• Possibility of a rapid connection to a West Side Transit Center

The drawbacks that I can think of are:

• Overlaps with the Subway route
• Time sensitive: this proposal is dependent on the fortunes of the Western Hills Viaduct redevelopment, and it might already be too late
• Doesn't connect to any new job centers
• Would require removing parking spots on most of McMicken, which makes it harder politically 

The biggest problems are that there's little development potential and a small transit market along that route. All of it is hemmed in by steep hillsides which limits your walkshed and where you can build.  

Edited September 12, 20213 yr by thomasbw
forgot the word "and"

Why is an extension to Newport politically difficult? Are you saying that Ohio leadership would try to block it?

On 9/10/2021 at 8:48 PM, carnevalem said:

I'd like some feedback on my streetcar expansion crayon lines. As I see it, the key problem we face with expanding the streetcar is that the two most logical targets, UC/Uptown and Covington/Newport, have significant obstacles: the steep climb up Vine or the hard sell of an Uptown tunnel, and political boundaries across state lines. Yet staying in the Downtown Basin has limited possibilities. 

 

At the same time, as far as I'm aware, the Western Hills Viaduct rebuild plans haven't been finalized. This project, and its potential federal funding, is a once in a generation opportunity to redefine this cornerstone of our region. 

 

My proposal is to extend the streetcar along McMicken until the bend near the Viaduct, where it would continue onto the bridge to Fairmont. This could either be an extension from the current line on Race and Elm (blue line below) or an extended Main and Walnut line (red line). This extension (pink line) would follow the same playbook as the original streetcar line: connect downtown with underdeveloped areas with a lot of potential. In this case, it would connect the McMicken hill district and a new Fairmont, redefined by the Lick Run Greenway.

(The green line represents a possible future Uptown Tunnel route)

 

 

 

If enough funding is secured, the line could be extended to the Western Hills Shopping Center, where a transit center could be built.

 

The benefits I see of this plan are:

• Avoids the political difficulty of the Uptown and NKY extensions
• Builds political support on the West Side, which has been a significant barrier in previous expansion efforts
• Connects two neighborhoods with a ton of redevelopment potential
• Possibility of a rapid connection to a West Side Transit Center

The drawbacks that I can think of are:

• Overlaps with the Subway route
• Time sensitive: this proposal is dependent on the fortunes of the Western Hills Viaduct redevelopment, and it might already be too late
• Doesn't connect to any new job centers
• Would require removing parking spots on most of McMicken, which makes it harder politically 

 

I think your Western Hills line might be a good route for a future light rail line. I don't think Vine St. is that big of a problem for the streetcar. In SLC the Red Line climbs a pretty steep hill to get up to the University of Utah, but it is noisy. IMO, while the streetcar should be expanded, city council should try to get an East-West light rail plan off the ground before they lose out on Federal $

Newport is on the record in support of an extension across the river. It is in OKI's long range plan. 

 

I would like to see an extension up Spring Grove Avenue through Camp Washington and on to Northside and Spring Grove Village. Lots of flat, underdeveloped land ripe for redevelopment. An established ridership in Northside and tie-in to the transit center is possible. And you could have dedicated lanes up the middle of Spring Grove as there is more capacity than necessary for autos. Basically your extension but keep going up Spring Grove instead of crossing the viaduct.

Besides a loop into NKY using a (badly needed) new bridge on 4th/5th street between Covington and Newport, I agree that going up Spring Grove into Northside is the best/flattest/most developable expansion (or extend all the way to MLK in Covington like this) Personally I would love to utilize the subway tunnels from under the Central Parkway/Vine streetcar station until they daylight at I-75 just to make it feel like we finally were moving on as a city from that long unfinished project, but the route extending from the current streetcar tracks up to McMicken to Marshall to Spring Grove would also work. At the base of Straight Street at McMicken is only a couple thousand feet from the huge new Deacon development, but again the problem is how to get students up and down that very steep hill. 

1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

the problem is how to get students up and down that very steep hill. 

Trebuchets. The answer is trebuchets. 

On 9/9/2021 at 3:07 PM, Dev said:

So far, I have only seen 2 candidates specifically mention reducing our reliance on automobiles within their platform: Galen G. Gordon (C), and Reggie Harris (D)

Neither of them specifically mention expanding the streetcar but they do talk about expanding transit service and access. Harris even mentions how zoning impacts transportation.

Mark Jeffreys only briefly mentions transit, but does heavily talk about expanding walkability and bikeability.

There are plenty of other candidates who mention pedestrian safety and/or poor infrastructure maintenance which indicates to me that they are listening but not leading on this topic. At most, they are looking at band-aids, not thorough changes to our transportation network.

 

Thanks! I didn't know that about Galen Gordon and Reggie. I still need to do my research. Not super inspired by this field of 35 candidates and the mayor's race seems pretty low-key. 

On 7/14/2021 at 8:05 AM, thomasbw said:

In terms of Riders Per Hour, the Streetcar is by far the most productive route in the region. 

 

July data- 

I'm curious if anyone has already taken the time to sort through all of the city council candidate responses and create a list of candidates who explicitly say that they are in favor of expanding the streetcar and/or using it as the starting point for a regional light rail system. If not, I will probably do so myself before the election.

 

I'm by no means a one-issue voter, but I can not bring myself to vote for a candidate who isn't explicitly pro-expansion. We need to have the right people in place in case federal money becomes available for expansion in the coming years.

 

I was very disappointed by Steve Goodin's response. I have found him to be a very reasonable person on many urban development issues but he believes that the streetcar is "more of a tourist attraction than functional piece of public transit at this point" and he wants to "find private and philanthropic support" for the current phase—implying that he doesn't think expansion is something even worth considering. Therefore, I don't think I can bring myself to vote for him.

I may have missed one or two, but here are the candidates who specifically mention streetcar expansion or light rail in varying degrees.

 

Streetcar:

Bill Frost

Kevin Flynn (with caveats of requiring realistic plans, whatever that means)

Galen G. Gordon (bonus FWW cap)

Kurt L. Grossman

Reggie Harris

Evan Holt

Logan Simmering

John J. Williams (University/Hospitals help fund/pay)

 

Light Rail:

Jaime M. Castle

Bill Frost

Phillip O'Neal

Logan Simmering

 

WVXU did separate out just the transportation responses here.

 

I would not consider Kevin Flynn a streetcar supporter at all.

 

Quote

 I had developed a plan that would use electric busses that looked like streetcars, had limited stops like streetcars, and followed a fixed route, to reach into the Uptown area from the northern extremity of the streetcar route. The plan relied on institutions of Uptown paying for operational costs, in exchange for routes that stopped at satellite parking lots, resulting in net savings to institutions (which all have their own separate transportation for employees) and would help ameliorate congestion in Uptown.

 

So in other words, he wanted to have a decorated trolley bus route that primarily functions as a parking shuttle, and he doesn't understand how that's different than a fixed rail modern streetcar. Plain and simple, he doesn't get it.