If they're into big houses there are a bunch of single-family homes that will be coming online in the next year or so on Race and Elm north of Washington Park in OTR.  Oh yeah, and these are right on the proposed streetcar route.

^I've also picked up on a backlash against motor scooters. The radio was of course touting scooters as being "dangerous" when really the problem with scooters is that you can't listen to the radio while riding them.

 

Or talk on a cell phone!!!!

You know, after listening to that radio segment, and hearing some of the callers, it becomes increasingly frustrating to know that these people don't have their own opinions.  They really just regurgitate the garbage they are fed on the big one.

 

I find myself asking, as a transplant, does the "big one" instill these mindsets in their listeners or do they cater to the mindset that has always existed here.  Either way it's so frustrating.

^ Wouldn't it be funny if The Big One leaves Kenwood and moves back to Cincinnati in the next year or so? What would they say then?

I just bought a Streetcar bumper sticker at Park and Vine for $1. Lets plaster these puppies all over.

I just bought a Streetcar bumper sticker at Park and Vine for $1. Lets plaster these puppies all over.

 

Ooh, thanks for the heads up.  I'm glad they received more for sale.  I should head down there before close.

He ended his call (after being thoroughly rejected on everyone of his false statements) by saying "well Newport on the Levee is doing pretty good and they don't have a streetcar."  This was followed up by Bortz informing the man that the retail portion is in fact struggling, and that it is the movie theatre that does well and not much else.

 

I just love the rationale that: "area X happens to do well without mass transit, therefore transit systems are completely unnecessary and have no benefits."  That argument is fallacious and weak beyond words.

That rationale is diminishing quickly, as gasoline prices continue to escalate towards a low-range of $4 and as suburbanites discover that hey... it really does drain the wallet to have to drive to work, to the grocery store, to a friend's house on the next street...

2008 Annual Membership Meeting (as always, the general public is invited!)

 

The Board of Directors and Staff of All Aboard Ohio invites you to our Annual Membership Meeting that will be held on Saturday, June 21st 2008 10:00 a.m. – 3:45 p.m.

 

At Cincinnati Union Terminal:

1301 Western Ave

Cincinnati, OH 45203

 

10:00 a.m. Registration opens with light breakfast and refreshments

10:30 a.m. Museum Center and Station Tour

 

At Downtown McCormick & Schmick’s Seafood Restaurant:

21 East Fifth Street

Across from Fountain Square

Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

 

12:15 p.m. Luncheon Speaker: Cincinnati Streetcar Project

Catered Lunch Provided

 

1:45 p.m. ODOT Speaker: Transportation Priorities for Ohio’s Future

 

2:45 p.m. General Membership Meeting

Membership Business Meeting

Membership Awards Recognition

Board of Directors Election

 

Every person registered is entered in our raffle drawing to win 2 round-trip Amtrak tickets on board the Cardinal, Capitol Limited, or Lake Shore Limited!

(You MUST be present at the event to win!)

 

Cost:  $35 for each Member, $50 for each Non-Member

Fee for Non-Members includes a one-year membership to All Aboard Ohio 

 

Registration deadline Wednesday, June 18!

 

You can register at:

 

http://allaboardohio.org/cms/index.php

 

Or call All Aboard Ohio at (614) 228-6005 to register by phone.

A question for the insiders on the streetcar proposal? In all honesty what our the chances looking right now that the streetcar will become a reality? the biggest hurdle looks to be private fiancing to the tune of 35 million plus.How is Cincinnati's business community responding so far?

 

 

At the OTR 5k last Saturday the Metro had a info stand and I started gabbing with one of the gentlemen there. He stated that the servce was orginally setup to get people from the burbs to downtown but they realize the world has now changed with people living downtown working in the burbs and people in the burbs working in other areas. He said they are releasing a big survey this summer and will be looking at how best to adjust the routes.

Maybe with the streetcar some of the lines won't have to penetrate into downtown as far, and be some of the expresses can deadend in the uptown area, with UC providing free rides thats the complaint I hear the most everyone working at UC has to hit downtown first adding a half hour to their rides.

 

jmecklenborg, I can believe it, I know a couple guys are totaly against the streetcar because its not fair I already have a free ride into work.

This is a little off-topic, but I'm just responding to your comment, 5chw4r7z.  I'd say that they do need to adjust the routes.  I see crosstown routes like the 39 bus to be very popular if they chose a better route.  There are probably many other routes that are extremely underutilized.  I would agree that some buses should have their termini in Uptown.

 

Really, what we need are multiple transit centers.

Really, what we need are multiple transit centers.

 

Really, what we need are multiple transit modes.  And centers.

First things first, but I agree.

Chances that the first streetcar will roll in 2011: better than 75%.

Chances that the first streetcar will roll in 2011: better than 75%.

 

Yeah?  You must know something about the promise of private funding sources that most of us don't.  Or you're just extremely optimistic.  Either way, I'm okay with that!

In Milton we Trust.

Chances that the first streetcar will roll in 2011: better than 75%.

 

Yeah?  You must know something about the promise of private funding sources that most of us don't.  Or you're just extremely optimistic.  Either way, I'm okay with that!

 

Just hang around the people at City Hall who are working on this project and the people who are negotiating to get the private dollars.  Throughout the conversation ask questions about the potential and future of a streetcar in Cincinnati and then sit back and pay attention to body language and overall tone.  I always, ALWAYS notice a positive tone from officials and people closest to the project.  They won't/can't comment specifically for various reasons...so you just have to read between the lines.

Chances that the first streetcar will roll in 2011: better than 75%.

 

Yeah?  You must know something about the promise of private funding sources that most of us don't.  Or you're just extremely optimistic.  Either way, I'm okay with that!

 

I think that if we step back, take the emotion out of the issue and just look at the overall trends in the nation currently, we'll see that the streetcar has a pretty good shot at happening in Cincinnati.  Development in the exburbs is slowing, private and public money is starting to get reinvested into the urban core, high expense is just beginning to cause automobiles to lose their luster, people are falling for walkable environments for a myriad of reasons, and rising gasoline prices are hastening all of this.  I know that the Mayor, City Council, and others are working hard to make the streetcar happen, but even without that, today's social and economic realities are making passenger rail more appealing with each passing day.  The streetcar seems likely, and with a little luck, we may be talking about light rail in this thread eventually as well.

by the way, oil went up $10 yesterday and $5 two days ago.

I see you've been sneaking around the peak oil thread, where I post news (increasingly from the mainstream media) that the world is in the midst of an energy revolution. This is a revolution which hasn't been seen for 100 years, when even the developed nations relied on horses and buggies, plus electric streetcars and steam power from coal. Most people lived agrarian lifestyles and had no electricity. Their wells were powered by windmills and their sawmills powered by hydro. Urban residents and factories were fed by their surrounding hinterlands. We recycled things and we repaired what we broke.

 

Nearly all of that is gone because of oil. The world's population has risen from 1 billion in 1900 to 6 billion in 2000 because of oil. We make medicines, clothes, plastics and fertilizers from oil and oil condensates and ship those products using oil. We power farm machines with oil. Our ability to access jobs and to maintain productive capacity to feed that 6 billion depends on oil. We have lifestyles that are so hopelessly dependent on oil that the residents of the developed world have lost most of their skills to survive without it.

 

While we aren't about to run out of oil, we are running out of cheap oil. It's that sweet, free-flowing stuff that's under pressure near the surface in friendly nations and is easy to ship and refine. There simply isn't enough of that to go around anymore. What's increasingly left is sour, highly corrosive, buried thousands of feet below the ground in tiny pockets, not under "escape pressure," beneath the lands of politically unstable or even hostile nations and has to processed, often with other fossil fuels, before it can be shipped and refined. Some oil may never be harvested because it is unaffordable to reach and to bring to market. And some exporting nations increasingly want to keep their oil for their own uses, either now or in the future.

 

That's what peak oil is all about. And do you hear that pounding at America's door like a SWAT team that's readying the entry ram? Peak oil is here. Too bad we're not decent -- we've just been caught with our pants down and it's not a pretty sight.

 

    So KJP, what is this new energy revolution? Do you think that cars will be replaced by transit, cars be replaced by horses and buggies, or cars not be replaced at all?

You're already seeing the first part of the revolution, it's called the cutback -- doing more with less. It starts with driving less to save some cash, then goes to buying a bike, telecommuting, flying less, biking/walking more, affording less food and paying attention to whether food is grown locally, taking more transit where it's available, heating/cooling your home less, finding a sustainable job after getting laid-off from the auto plant or airline, learning how to grow food in your garden or windowbox, selling the car for scrap metal, joining a community garden, learning useful trades like carpentry and electrical work, becoming a community resource and so on.

 

Sound revolutionary?

 

    You call that a revolution? A cutback is doing LESS with less. I am personally seeing this happen - people are cutting back on things because of high gasoline prices. It's not that they are switching from driving to bicycling; they are avoiding the activity altogether and staying home.

 

    It's certainly a change, and maybe it will turn out for the better. I don't know if I would call it a revolution, though. Maybe a return to previous ways?

 

    If C-Dawg is a doomer, you are a utopian.   

Sound revolutionary?

 

Pol Pot couldn't have said it better than you.  Year zero doesn't sound revolutionary to me, it sounds like regression, recession, and ultimately repression. So we reverse out of all of the things you said that cheap oil has brought us and we have..........The world population go from 6 billion to 1 billion from 2000 to 2100, we can no longer make affordable medicines, clothes, plastics and fertilizers and we can no longer ship any of these products because of oil.  Revolution?  I have read of similar, well intentioned people speak in those terms throughout all of history and it never seems to end up the way it was hoped, but in absolute disaster and for the people, despair.  Good luck in your "revolution".

 

Very simply, its time for a good electric car.  Leave the fossil fuel for the airplanes and long distance trucks.  We keep our mobility, breathe cleaner air, and stop hemorrhaging money.

Sorry for getting the streetcar discussion off track. If you want, we should discuss peak oil implications further at the peak oil thread. I have replied to Michael Redmond at:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2706.msg293440.html#msg293440

 

The short answer, MR, is you've jumped to an awfully inaccurate conclusion about my beliefs and values. But I was a nice guy in my response.

The other benefit of a new streetcar (and light rail and even heavy rail) is that it doesn't use the same level of materials that the world is competing for so heavily right now(oil, concrete). It obviously uses steel, but far less than buses or cars to carry the same number of folks. In Cincinnati at least, it will use the most available carbon energy source  . . . coal.

Thanks for the updates.Positive to hear Cincy's business community seems to be stepping up on the streetcar project.Makes quite a bit of sense for the Fortune 500's downtown to invest in this on thier own end to recruit and retain the top possible work force and keep Cincy viable place to do business.

 

Connecting 90,000 workers downtown to 50,000 uptown? Im not sure even Portland has those numbers of people to work in thier streetcar line.Im expecting big big things for Cincinnati in this project.

checking in on this -- keep up the public pressure & it's bound to happen.

 

 

Any news about light rail (the other mode of transportation mentioned in this thread's title)?

Light rail is mentioned in the draft version of OKI's Long Range Transportation Plan, but since funding hasn't either been secure nor has it been proven that it can be paid for, it's not included in the final version.

 

There are rumblings about it here and there (more than is currently evident), but for now it's just a dream for the future.

I don't want to speak for the other streetcar supporters, but I think that the majority of us want light rail as well, but are focusing on the streetcar for now because it is more attainable.  It would be great to have a regional light rail plan floated soon, but I don't see that happening for several years.  I'd love to be wrong about that, though.

I'd agree with that.  It's like thinking about landing a entry-level job before becoming the department supervisor.  You need to get the job first, at least.

 

In the meantime, we'll play the waiting game.  To get our fix, we'll get out of town and drool over what some other cities already have.

I got into a discussion with a person this weekend about the streetcar, and he said that he thought a streetcar with rubber wheels (but still electrified from above) would be better than one that runs on a fixed track.  I tried to speak of the advantages of the fixed track due to 1) the curb level access available on the modern cars; 2) the fact that so many prominent institutions are on the proposed streetcar route that the theoretical flexibility one might get from the wheeled streetcars would be moot, since Music Hall and Findlay Market (for example) haven't changed locations in a hundred years; and 3) that I had never seen, nor heard of any town using wheeled streetcars instead of fixed track ones.  But I admit that the suggestion through me and I didn't feel that I had confidently refuted the assumptions of superiority of the wheeled variety of streetcar.  Has anyone seen or heard of these types of streetcar?  Also, anyone have a good series of talking points one can use in discussions such as these?

Has anyone seen or heard of these types of streetcar? Also, anyone have a good series of talking points one can use in discussions such as these?

^Sounds like Dayton's electric trolley buses

That or those buses disguised as old-time trolleys.  There are also the sightseeing tour vehicles with multiple cars. 

 

If you're talking about the modern streetcar with rubber tires...I'm not sure I see the point.

The point, it would seem, is that you don't have spend money on the tracks in the road.

I think that it would come down to short-term vs. long-term investment.  Plus, it goes back to the permanence of rail versus bus service.  Overhead wires do nothing for the property values along a route if the vehicles don't run along fixed rails.

But does anyone even know if they exist and are in use by any polity?

I got into a discussion with a person this weekend about the streetcar, and he said that he thought a streetcar with rubber wheels (but still electrified from above) would be better than one that runs on a fixed track...   

 

...Also, anyone have a good series of talking points one can use in discussions such as these?

 

Wow.  Now that's an argument I haven't heard.  Someone pushing for totally electric buses.  It seems like having the wire overheard would have some of the same effect, from a development standpoint, as track in the ground.  Probably less though, since moving the wires, while a huge hassle, is still easier than changing the route on a track-based streetcar.  It wouldn't have the same positive psychological effect on people that rail does, bringing in riders that buses wouldn't, but it's hard to argue that, because it is so nebulous and you can't point to charts or figures to back it up. 

 

I'd love to see a cost comparison of these two types of systems, including maintenance.  Personally, I think if you're going through all the trouble of setting up a new system, you should go all out and get the streetcars.  Buses just seem cheap to me, but that's just one man's opinion.

But does anyone even know if they exist and are in use by any polity?

 

They definitely exist.  They're in use at UD and I believe at WashU out in Seattle. 

^Thanks.

I got into a discussion with a person this weekend about the streetcar, and he said that he thought a streetcar with rubber wheels (but still electrified from above) would be better than one that runs on a fixed track.  I tried to speak of the advantages of the fixed track due to 1) the curb level access available on the modern cars; 2) the fact that so many prominent institutions are on the proposed streetcar route that the theoretical flexibility one might get from the wheeled streetcars would be moot, since Music Hall and Findlay Market (for example) haven't changed locations in a hundred years; and 3) that I had never seen, nor heard of any town using wheeled streetcars instead of fixed track ones.  But I admit that the suggestion through me and I didn't feel that I had confidently refuted the assumptions of superiority of the wheeled variety of streetcar.  Has anyone seen or heard of these types of streetcar?  Also, anyone have a good series of talking points one can use in discussions such as these?

 

I don't know of any North American cities that are considering a new system of electric buses if they don't already have them.

 

Seattle has some, San Francisco has pretty many, and of course Dayton.

 

Ironically, what some people see as the defect of the streetcar -- the rails in the street -- is what makes them superior operationally to electric buses. Because city streets are always rough in this climate, the jarring ride of the bus due to potholes and uneven pavement gets transmitted through the bus to the overhead catenary, which really takes a beating as a result. They can be really high-maintenance vehicles. Now consider the rails in the street. They are seamless and provide a super-smooth ride, which results in less catenary maintenance. Plus, the streetcar or light rail system fully covers the cost of maintaining its right-of-way, i.e. the rails, while buses tear up our streets. Note all the large concrete pads being installed at bus stops all around Cincinnati where the buses make ruts in the pavement.

 

But there's another reason. The return current for rail transit is returned through the steel wheels and the rails to complete the circuit. Because buses are grounded by their rubber tires, the return current needs to travel by a second set of overhead conductors, thus making there be twice as much wire to have to look at.  Cincinnati was one of only two cities in the country to require its streetcars to return their current through a second overhead wire rather than through the rails because city leaders then worried about stray currents from the rails corroding water pipes and other metal objects near the line. Which can be a problem if the rails are "booted" with rubber jackets to prevent it. This is why you see such a mess of wires whenever you see pictures of old Cincinnati streetcars. It didn't need to be that way.

They aren't necessarily at UD (university of dayton, right?), but they do have some around the city of Dayton.

I don't know of any North American cities that are considering a new system of electric buses if they don't already have them.

 

Seattle has some, San Francisco has pretty many, and of course Dayton.

 

Ironically, what some people see as the defect of the streetcar -- the rails in the street -- is what makes them superior operationally to electric buses. Because city streets are always rough in this climate, the jarring ride of the bus due to potholes and uneven pavement gets transmitted through the bus to the overhead catenary, which really takes a beating as a result. They can be really high-maintenance vehicles. Now consider the rails in the street. They are seamless and provide a super-smooth ride, which results in less catenary maintenance. Plus, the streetcar or light rail system fully covers the cost of maintaining its right-of-way, i.e. the rails, while buses tear up our streets. Note all the large concrete pads being installed at bus stops all around Cincinnati where the buses make ruts in the pavement.

 

But there's another reason. The return current for rail transit is returned through the steel wheels and the rails to complete the circuit. Because buses are grounded by their rubber tires, the return current needs to travel by a second set of overhead conductors, thus making there be twice as much wire to have to look at. Cincinnati was one of only two cities in the country to require its streetcars to return their current through a second overhead wire rather than through the rails because city leaders then worried about stray currents from the rails corroding water pipes and other metal objects near the line. Which can be a problem if the rails are "booted" with rubber jackets to prevent it. This is why you see such a mess of wires whenever you see pictures of old Cincinnati streetcars. It didn't need to be that way.

 

Thanks John.  One of the things the guy I was talking to mentioned was that Cincinnati had a period of transition in public transit.  He said it went old rail streetcars to electrified buses to diesel buses.  He said that he thought the electrified buses were better.  I think that with the fact that the modern streetcars would require anyone mounting steps to get on or off is the best argument for them from a technological perspective, much better than the supposed costs of shifting routes, which is largely just a smoke screen.

 

Also, does anyone know which bus routes in current use today are essentially the same as the streetcar routes they replaced?  I think this was mentioned previously on this thread.

Also immediately across the river, the Kentucky streetcars were all single-pole.  Ridiculously those that entered Dixie Terminal were required to raise a second pole at the north end of the suspension bridge merely to travel the last 600ft. 

 

Dayton's electric bus network is quite extensive, the wires are in place over many downtown streets and it's here where you can see what works and doesn't work about them.  Definitely you can see the routes and see where the lines turn, but only if you know what you're looking for.  A visitor won't be aquainted with these kinds of buses so they won't have that same effect.  Also, the amount of overhead wires gets quite thick at intersections where several bus lines intersect.  Also, anywhere where two lines diverge, there is a lot more wire because the bus has to get into the left-turn lane. 

 

At least in this initial Cincinnati streetcar line, aside from there only being one wire, there won't be any intersections with other lines so the amount of wires will be minimal.     

Philadelphia is actually returning electric buses to a couple routes that had them eliminated in the last 10 years.

I don't know of any North American cities that are considering a new system of electric buses if they don't already have them.

 

Seattle has some, San Francisco has pretty many, and of course Dayton.

 

Ironically, what some people see as the defect of the streetcar -- the rails in the street -- is what makes them superior operationally to electric buses. Because city streets are always rough in this climate, the jarring ride of the bus due to potholes and uneven pavement gets transmitted through the bus to the overhead catenary, which really takes a beating as a result. They can be really high-maintenance vehicles. Now consider the rails in the street. They are seamless and provide a super-smooth ride, which results in less catenary maintenance. Plus, the streetcar or light rail system fully covers the cost of maintaining its right-of-way, i.e. the rails, while buses tear up our streets. Note all the large concrete pads being installed at bus stops all around Cincinnati where the buses make ruts in the pavement.

 

But there's another reason. The return current for rail transit is returned through the steel wheels and the rails to complete the circuit. Because buses are grounded by their rubber tires, the return current needs to travel by a second set of overhead conductors, thus making there be twice as much wire to have to look at. Cincinnati was one of only two cities in the country to require its streetcars to return their current through a second overhead wire rather than through the rails because city leaders then worried about stray currents from the rails corroding water pipes and other metal objects near the line. Which can be a problem if the rails are "booted" with rubber jackets to prevent it. This is why you see such a mess of wires whenever you see pictures of old Cincinnati streetcars. It didn't need to be that way.

 

One of the things the guy I was talking to mentioned was that Cincinnati had a period of transition in public transit. He said it went old rail streetcars to electrified buses to diesel buses. He said that he thought the electrified buses were better.

 

 

It may have been the case that the rubber-tired buses which replaced the vintage streetcars were an improvement in ride quality because the old streetcars used bolted rail, not the welded rails used in modern systems.

Also, does anyone know which bus routes in current use today are essentially the same as the streetcar routes they replaced? I think this was mentioned previously on this thread.

 

Here's a link to a listing of all the lines running through the city as of 1925.

http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/Transit1/mapinfo.html#csr

 

The corresponding map is here:

http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/Transit1/map.html