Pete Rose Way was debated to hell & back.

Pete was on a roll so the city made an exception.

Later, Pete was kicked out of baseball, investigated for all kinds of stuff.

There is a reason for the law.

Changing McMicken is a terrible idea. It runs counter to the very idea of historic preservation. To take a name that represents an historical figure and replace it with one that is so generic as to be nearly meaningless, well, it's just a bad, bad move.

 

The Brewery District master plan is still under development.  The idea of a "Brewery Blvd" or "Brewer's Blvd" is an attempt to capitalize on the neighborhood's history and tie the remaining breweries together.  Our thought was that it would still be McMicken Avenue, but it could be an overlay or ceremonial name, much like how highways or historic streets are called out (the brown signs).

 

A current version of the Brewery District master plan is on the website:

http://otrbrewerydistrict.com

I understand the reasoning for renaming, but it shouldn't be called a boulevard unless it's actually a boulevard IMO.

Street names in  "Uber'm Rhein" should change to original  names before the German hysteria in the early 20th century. 

Street names in  "Uber'm Rhein" should change to original  names before the German hysteria in the early 20th century.

 

I couldn't agree any more with this statement!!!!!  Please, please, please return the German heritage to OTR!!!!

Street names in  "Uber'm Rhein" should change to original  names before the German hysteria in the early 20th century.

 

I couldn't agree any more with this statement!!!!!  Please, please, please return the German heritage to OTR!!!!

 

I agree this would be pretty cool.  :)

I also believe that should this area start to turn it around....then Oktoberfest should also be held in OTR and the Brewery District area....it only seems to make sense to me!

 

Here is a tid bit of info:

American Oktoberfest:  Cincinnati, Ohio

 

According to the 2000 census, more than four in 10 Ohioans claim German ancestry.  But go to Cincinnati, known to the German-American community as Zincinnati, and the proportion rises to one half.  Along with Milwaukee and St. Louis, Cincinnati forms part of the “German triangle” of German-Americana.

 

What began in 1788 with the arrival of Major Benjamin Steitz (Stites) and Matthias Denmann and continued with the Danube Swabian immigration of the 1950's, flourishes today as a vibrant pride in German-American heritage.  Cincinnati boasts more than 20 German-American societies, a bilingual school, a German language newspaper, a sprawling May festival, and the largest Oktoberfest outside of Munich, Cincinnati’s sister city.

 

The “elbow” formed by the Miami and Erie Canal, nicknamed the “Rhine,” now forms the Central Parkway, the spine of the city that splits the city in half.  The area known today as “over-the-Rhine” was once the German district.

 

Of all the buildings in Over-the-Rhine, the one that expresses the German-American love for culture and learning and the arts is the Germania building, with a statue of a women who embodies Germany, with books, a globe, and a palette at her feet.  During the Anti-German sentiment of World War I, she was renamed “Columbia” and draped with a black cape.

 

But the most impressive embodiment of German culture in Cincinnati, is by far, its annual Oktoberfest, where 80,500 bratwurst, 64,000 sauerkraut balls, 56,000 sausages, and 24,000 potato pancakes are consumed each year.

 

Information courtesy of:

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/publications/infocus/german-americans/g-a_in_us.html

Mmmmm....sauerkraut balls! 

Steve,

 

I went on to the site to see what the current boundries defined by the dist are but something must be wrong with the link or my computer one.  Can you give me the Eastern and Northern most boundry?

My mom makes sauerkraut balls every year at Christmas and although I am very proud of my german heritage, I hate sauerkraut and sauerkraut balls. ugh.

I couldn't agree any more with this statement!!!!!  Please, please, please return the German heritage to OTR!!!!

 

And to downtown. (Even though yes I know historically the downtown was more English) I'm still mad Hofbrauhaus is in Newport.  But image a Fountain Square setting! 

Changing all the street names to something new or restoring them to what they were previously would be too confusing.

too confusing to who? not very many people travel through otr, particularly the area for the brewery district (with the exception of the area immediately around findlay market). I think a return to the city's german heritage would be awesome for the area and would help with the revitalization of that area.

Changing all the street names to something new or restoring them to what they were previously would be too confusing.

 

There are a number of street signs that show the original German street names along with the current names in OTR.  I think Republic Street has a few.  These are the brown (cultural?) signs that I was talking about.  A similar example are the signs for Old St. Mary's Square at 13th and Main.

 

I went on to the site to see what the current boundries defined by the dist are but something must be wrong with the link or my computer one.  Can you give me the Eastern and Northern most boundry?

 

The Brewery District Community Urban Redevelopment Corporation's boundaries  are north to Clifton, east to Main, south to Liberty, and west to Central Parkway and Ravine.

 

I also believe that should this area start to turn it around....then Oktoberfest should also be held in OTR and the Brewery District area....it only seems to make sense to me!

 

We would love that, but for now we'll have to settle for Bock Fest (which will technically be on Main Street).  Dare to dream!

I heard about the expansion of the brewery dist to try and encompass the Mulberry/McMicken Sector and then I thought that died. This may seem trivial to others hear on the board but I was told that this was being done only for marketing purposes and wanted to include development within our sector to try and raise the total number of development within the brewery dist to make it seem more attractive. I am fine with that. However, I spoke with the chamber about this and capt. Jones and a concern came up that some within the dist were actually trying to set up a Pendleton style splinter group and take resources, financial and otherwise, as a recognized community. OK, fine and good, however, what does this do to Mulberry/McMicken Sector? As you said, the borders would be Main and up to E. Clifton, leaving aside Peete, Mulberry, and parts of Lang in no mans land. and where do those resources go? Peete, Mulberry? not as defined by the dist. nor was the annexation, or proposed annexation even discussed with the residence, (other than me, and who am I?) So can you help me understand this a bit better or am I and the Chamber confused on some facts?

The brewery dist heart is in the right place, and so is the Mulberry Hill Assoc. and the Brewery Dist should know that they can work with us and not try to annex us without any input from those being annexed. Other than you Steve, who from the BD has said anything to our residence at any of our meetings?

We should be careful in running away from the name OTR. Main St wants to disassociate itself, Pendleton wants to disassociate itself, and now the Brewery Dist is doing the same thing (in my opinion). Pretty soon there will be no OTR left, just a bunch of carved out neighborhoods within the real neighborhood. I live on Mulberry in Over the Rhine, I don't live in the Brewery Dist.

 

P.S.

If I have seemed cranky in my past few post I appologize, I think it is the weather.

Changing all the street names to something new or restoring them to what they were previously would be too confusing.

 

I think that shedding some of the current names for the original names would also help to shed some of the image problems in OTR.  Most often when people hear Republic, Liberty, etc they think of drug streets...should these patriotic street names be changed back to their German names, then I think it would not only restore the heritage, but also get rid of some of the negative connotation (see efforts at Springrove Village aka Winton Place).

 

There may be some of the brown signs...but maybe I am just a hard nose...I don't think that cuts it!!  They need to be real street names, not commemorative names.

 

BallHatGuy, I would have loved to see Haufbrauhaus on the Cincy side...even if it were down by Paul Brown as it was proposed.  But instead of FS...I would once again want it in OTR...aka Cincy's Germantown!!!  I think German style store signs, street scapes, and signs written in both English and German throughout all of OTR.  Maybe this is just my own pipedream..but I would love for OTR to become the premier Germantown in America!!!

Changing all the street names to something new or restoring them to what they were previously would be too confusing.

Most often when people hear Republic, Liberty, etc they think of drug streets...should these patriotic street names be changed back to their German names, then I think it would not only restore the heritage, but also get rid of some of the negative connotation (see efforts at Springrove Village aka Winton Place).

Changing the street name wouldn't do much to change OTR's image IMO. When shootings, robberies, etc continue on the same street with a new name, a new negative connotation will be set in place. If you ask me, all it would do is just confuse the hell out of people that are trying to give someone directions.

If you ask me, all it would do is just confuse the hell out of people that are trying to give someone directions.

Isn't this what mapquest is for??  :laugh:

I heard about the expansion of the brewery dist to try and encompass the Mulberry/McMicken Sector and then I thought that died.  This may seem trivial to others hear on the board but I was told that this was being done only for marketing purposes and wanted to include development within our sector to try and raise the total number of development within the brewery dist to make it seem more attractive.  I am fine with that.  However, I spoke with the chamber about this and capt. Jones and a concern came up that some within the dist were actually trying to set up a Pendleton style splinter group and take resources, financial and otherwise, as a recognized community.  OK, fine and good, however, what does this do to Mulberry/McMicken Sector?  As you said, the borders would be Main and up to E. Clifton, leaving aside Peete, Mulberry, and parts of Lang in no mans land. and where do those resources go? Peete, Mulberry? not as defined by the dist. nor was the annexation, or proposed annexation even discussed with the residence, (other than me, and who am I?)  So can you help me understand this a bit better or am I and the Chamber confused on some facts?

The brewery dist heart is in the right place, and so is the Mulberry Hill Assoc. and the Brewery Dist should know that they can work with us and not try to annex us without any input from those being annexed.  Other than you Steve, who from the BD has said anything to our residence at any of our meetings? 

We should be careful in running away from the name OTR.  Main St wants to disassociate itself, Pendleton wants to disassociate itself, and now the Brewery Dist is doing the same thing (in my opinion).  Pretty soon there will be no OTR left, just a bunch of carved out neighborhoods within the real neighborhood.  I live on Mulberry in Over the Rhine, I don't live in the Brewery Dist.

 

Well, I spelled out the Community Urban Redevelopment Corporation to try to differentiate it from the Safety Sectors.  I'm not sure if there is a legal description of the area in our incorporation documents, I will have to check.  The basis of the group, though, is the brewing history and physical structures which are encompassed by these borders (roughly).  It is true that it encompasses most but not all of the Mulberry/McMicken Sector, but I think this group serves a different purpose than the safety sectors.  I don't see the safety sector groups as development groups, which this group is.

 

In addition, our intent is not to steal resources from other sections of OTR, but to bring more resources to bear on the neighborhood.  In the past year, we have sponsored and ran the Prohibition Resistance Tour, which brought over 500 people to OTR, sponsored Steins in the Rhine, which brought another couple of hundred people who would never step foot in the neighborhood, initiated and got approved and applied the first citizen sponsored zoning district (Urban Mix), and lobbied for Citirama to build on Renner Street.  We're working on setting up a revolving load fund and developer resource center, which does not currently exist.  We also took over running Bock Fest this year, and hope to bring a ton more people and positive press to OTR with the events we are planning.  I don't see any of these competing with other initiatives or groups, only complimenting them.

 

I don't think anyone wants to marginalize the existing groups in the neighborhood, whether it be the Chamber, Community Council, Safety Sectors, etc, but I think each group has it's own focus.  In addition, I'm not a big fan of making the police attend another community meeting, especially if there is an overlap from existing groups. Personally, I don't think CPD should have to attend the Brewery District meeting unless there is a specific reason.

 

As to the name, I agree that I don't want to lose the name Over-the-Rhine.  It is a tricky thing to deal with the image of OTR, past and present, though.  Let's face it, generally we are dealing with a negative.  I don't have an answer on exactly how to deal with that, but I agree that trying to "lose" the OTR name is a bad thing.

If you ask me, all it would do is just confuse the hell out of people that are trying to give someone directions.

Isn't this what mapquest is for??  :laugh:

 

Mapquest is the most confusing bull@#$ everr!!! "Merge onto highway 480" wait a second...that's the same damn highway I'm already on!! urrgh!

Mmmmm....sauerkraut balls! 

Christmas at Neville's !

I don't have the names in front of me, but I seem to remember that the original street names in that area weren't as conspicuously German as one might suspect and half of them were common English family names.  Certainly not as "German" as the many family names that still prowl the area -- Allendorf, Biersdorfer, Backscheider, Deardorf, Foltzenlogen, Messenschlager, Niederhelmen, Riefschneider, Rohrschneider, Steubenrach, Van Wassenhoff, Von Lemden, Zirkelbach, as examples of last names I grew up around.  In fact there really aren't many German street names around Cincinnati because the original land owners were mostly English, including the people who originally owned what is now Over-the-Rhine.

 

"Brewery Blvd."?  I find the formulaic framing and marketing of "districts" nausiating.  It's as if there's a "Districts for Dummies" instruction manual, both for their creators and consumers.     

 

 

 

What I am suggessting is the return to the original names for certain German specific places...Republic St.  - Bremen St., Rename Central Pky - The Rhine, give bldgs their German based names St. Mary Church - St. Marien Kirche.  Another good example would be to have signage that has both English and German languages on them...especially for significant German places ie German Mutual Insurance Company of Cincinnati - Deutsche Gegenseitige Versicherungs-Gesellschaft von Cincinnati.  I personally would think that this would be VERY cool for Cincy and OTR!!!

Unclerando, I have been thinking the same for years.  Let's start a petition. What sounds better...Going for a stroll down republic st? or..........Let's go for a stroll  down Bremen? OTR and Prosepect Hill were built by Germans for Germans.  Heck even the St. Marien Kirche bricks were baked at homes by locals.

 

Ok for the people who don't like the name the OTR brewery district how about-------

 

Über den Brauerei-Bezirk von Rhein =Over the Rhine Brewery District

 

I kinda of like the ring of it :-)

In addition, our intent is not to steal resources from other sections of OTR, but to bring more resources to bear on the neighborhood.

What you said in your response is exactly what was presented to me and I do not doubt that this is what is being told to you. However it is the belief of many in the know that some within the group have other plans. And once again, I am ok with that, however what is the reasoning for extending the boundries over to Main and through E. Clifton? The development that is being lobbied by the dist is in an area that is not within the expansion. None of the development projects that I am working on or am aware of within our sector have been a result of efforts of the brewery dist, but those of the Mulberry Hill Assoc, which extends beyond the sector's efforts into development (we see these two as inseperable components of sustained development and are in talks of duplicating the same approach on Main) but follows the border outlines of the Mulberry/McMicken Safety Sector.

Once again, it is the feeling of some, I now included, that the brewery dist is positioning itself boundry wise to form its own Pendleton/Prospect Hill style community that is seperate from OTR and therefor entitled to recieve the same funding. This is something that was done without, not just the consent, but even the knowledge of the residents and property owners within the expansion. I am supportive of the Brewery Dist and all of its initiatives within the old boundries, but I believe the Mulberry Hill group is making head over heals progress on its own and even outpacing dev. efforts seen within the Brewery Dist.

^ Rando, you do know that Central Parkway was never named The Rhine, right? I suppose you could call it Miami-Erie Parkway... but Central works for me.

 

I think calling things their "German" names is unnecessary and sort of counter productive. Those different names reflect the rich and changing nature of OTR, which is it's most fundamental characteristic. No matter how much you might want it to, putting German names on things isn't going to bring back the good ol' days of biergartens and 5 cent weinerwursts. I'm all for the brown historic signs like the one on Republic showing that it used to be Bremen.

 

You're not going to be able to turn back time in OTR to the old German days. And even if you could, you'd be ignoring the immigrants and residents that came later. Historic preservation isn't supposed to be a time machine.

 

^Jmeck, I agree. Brewer's Blvd sounds too focused-grouped. It, like calling something the Brewery District, sounds too generic.

 

Remember when Michael came on here and we all jumped down his throat for trying to glom Mulberry Hill onto Prospect Hill? It strikes me as funny that he's now the one trying to defend his turf. I say that with all due respect to the efforts of everyone doing anything to improve any part of OTR or the surrounding communities, no matter what they're called.

Cramer,

Remember when Michael came on here and we all jumped down his throat for trying to glom Mulberry Hill onto Prospect Hill?

I remember and still haven't forgotten...better watch your back man.

Keep in Mind that my argument there that the name truly was a marketing issue for a home tour (Mulberry Hill Tour for Life) Mulberry Hill was used to encompass the whole hillside that fell under that tour. And that is why I had no problem with the brewery dist doing this for marketing purposes either, however if it is indeed the intent to

take resources, financial and otherwise, as a recognized community

then this is totally different from what we were doing. Prospect Hill is still Prospect Hill, Keys Hill is still Keys Hill, Sycamore Hill is still Sycamore Hill, Mt. Auburn is still Mt. Auburn and OTR is still OTR. And on that note I also personally went to each community meeting along with the Miracles for Life Chairman and discussed what we were doing.

Also keep in mind that this is not one person defending his turf, the person on the other end of this conversation is a resident and co captain of the Mulberry/McMicken Sector (and a good friend) And these concerns were brought to my attention (they did not originate with me) by Tarbell, Capt. Jones and Cherly Curtis. It was even something fiercly debated within the BD itself, correct me if I am wrong Steve, but wasn't Duane Donohoo even against this expansion? Market all you want, but the one group who has done more than anything for our area is the OTR Chamber of Commerce and unless things have changed recently, they opposed this expansion for the same reasoning that I am bring up here.

German names on things isn't going to bring back the good ol' days of biergartens and 5 cent weinerwursts.

  Dang it!!  You owe me a can of Hudy just for saying that!!    :cry: 

 

 

German names on things isn't going to bring back the good ol' days of biergartens and 5 cent weinerwursts.

  Dang it!!  You owe me a can of Hudy just for saying that!!    :cry: 

 

Deal. But better make it a bottle. Haven't seen cans in ages.

^ Rando, you do know that Central Parkway was never named The Rhine, right? I suppose you could call it Miami-Erie Parkway... but Central works for me.

Yes I am aware of that...the German immigrants (to my knowledge) refered to the canal as 'The Rhine' and calling it something in that kind of perspective would be nice.

 

You're not going to be able to turn back time in OTR to the old German days. And even if you could, you'd be ignoring the immigrants and residents that came later. Historic preservation isn't supposed to be a time machine.

I am not saying to ignore those immigrants who came after, but what I am saying is to pay tribute to those who not only built/are responsible for that neighborhood...but much of the city.  I want it to be similar to the Chinatown's and Little Italy's that can be found in other American cities.

 

Cincinnati does not have a strong Chinese, Italian, or Hispanic immigrant history....but it does have a strong German history.  What better way to pay tribute and preserve our city's beginning than to make OTR the German tribute that it ought to be.

^Michael. I'm obviously on the outside looking in on this. Thanks for explaining the dynamic. I think your concerns are valid.

cramer,

I guess I am on the outside as well because as I said earlier, I thought this was a dead issue and wasn't happening.

Deal. But better make it a bottle. Haven't seen cans in ages.

yea  your right..  I have been staring at my empty but well preserved can of Hudy 14K for a long time.

 

^Rando. As you know, Cincinnati's name was originally Losantiville. Should we change it back? Now, obviously, that's an unfair comparison. But I do think it gets to the crux of the matter.

 

Over the Rhine was named derisively -- at least at first. I dunno what German immigrants at the time called the canal, but I suspect they may have been initially peeved at it being called the Rhine.

 

What does it functionally mean to create a "German tribute" out of a neighborhood? It sounds like Disneyland. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, I'm interested in what that would entail... Chinatowns or Little Italies in most American cities feel like caricatures of what they used to be. OTR has long ceased being Little Germany -- there's no reason to dress it up like something it isn't. That doesn't mean I don't wholeheartedly support fixing up OTR, and I think ideas like historic markers, street signs that show the old names, and holding Oktoberfest in OTR are all fantastic.

 

There's a lot of idealism built up around what OTR once was. I think it might be valuable to recognize that there's more to OTR than the mid to late 19th century.

"Changing McMicken is a terrible idea. It runs counter to the very idea of historic preservation. To take a name that represents an historical figure and replace it, well, it's just a bad, bad move."

 

Tell that to General St. Clair!!

^Rando. As you know, Cincinnati's name was originally Losantiville. Should we change it back? Now, obviously, that's an unfair comparison. But I do think it gets to the crux of the matter.

 

Over the Rhine was named derisively -- at least at first. I dunno what German immigrants at the time called the canal, but I suspect they may have been initially peeved at it being called the Rhine.

 

What does it functionally mean to create a "German tribute" out of a neighborhood? It sounds like Disneyland. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, I'm interested in what that would entail... Chinatowns or Little Italies in most American cities feel like caricatures of what they used to be. OTR has long ceased being Little Germany -- there's no reason to dress it up like something it isn't. That doesn't mean I don't wholeheartedly support fixing up OTR, and I think ideas like historic markers, street signs that show the old names, and holding Oktoberfest in OTR are all fantastic.

 

There's a lot of idealism built up around what OTR once was. I think it might be valuable to recognize that there's more to OTR than the mid to late 19th century.

 

Your points are completely valid...and yes it would be quite rediculous to change Cincy's name back to Losantiville.  I just think OTR and its embedded history is a little too important/significant to Cincinnati to simply put up some placards and commemorative signs that say what it once was.  IMO, there is nothing more flattering than a living monument to the past...most cities have one and this is/should be Cincinnati's.  Now maybe I am going to far in saying that signs should be in both German and English, but I am just trying to convey a vision that I have of OTR..and what it could be.  How many true Germantowns are there across the US, this could be a major draw and really identify Cincinnati with its rich German history!

Ok for the people who don't like the name the OTR brewery district how about-------

 

Über den Brauerei-Bezirk von Rhein =Over the Rhine Brewery District

 

It could also simply be The Brewery District - Der Brauereienbezirk...Now thats what I'm talking about!!!

I doubt the OTR community would go for it.

I doubt the OTR community would go for it.

 

Ohhhh...you naysayer!!!  :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip:

City pouring cash into old brewery

By Jane Prendergast, Cincinnati Enquirer | April 30, 2007

 

Vacant more than a decade, damaged three times by fire, missing its entire back wall and condemned, this 144-year-old building needs almost half a million dollars worth of work – just to keep rain out.  And Cincinnati City Council, after years of prodding, just agreed to spend it.  That’s either the most visionary decision council members have made in a long time, or possibly the biggest waste of money, depending on who’s talking.

 

The Kaufman Building has stood at 1721-1727 Vine St. since 1863, when owners of the same-named brewery a block up the street built it to house workers who came from Germany. Stretching across four storefronts and up four stories, it’s one of the largest buildings in Over-the-Rhine, an anchor for the northern half of the neighborhood and in a good spot near Findlay Market, says Vice Mayor Jim Tarbell, who has been pushing for years to get it rebuilt.

 

Read full article here:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070430/NEWS01/304300056

I am not sure what this building looks like...are there pictures posted somewhere?  I haven't had a chance to do the Brewery Tour where I can be further educated on this part of Cincinnati's history.

^Is this building in the Brewery District? Seems too far south to me, but what do I know?

 

EDIT: nevermind, it is.

 

That said, I think giving Taylor this money is a bad idea.

the estimated travel time from the kaufman building to findlay market is 50 seconds.

This photo is from grasscat's website, Building Cincinnati:

 

 

It really needs to be saved in order to maintain the character of the area.  If it was renovated, it would look amazing and hopefully would be a great catalyst for the area!

 

 

This photo is from grasscat's website, Building Cincinnati

 

And I stole it from Dusty Rhodes!

 

I seriously wonder if someone at the Enquirer reads my blog, because this happened three weeks ago--and they didn't do a story until now.

 

There's more background on this project in a thread over in the Architecture section if anyone's interested.

 

Here is what was done with the Odd Fellows Hall in Covington.  It was in pretty bad shape in 2002, to say the least:

 

 

After reconstruction, it is now looking great at Fifth and Madison in Downtown Covington:

 

http://www.ssastructural.com/images/projects/renovations/3oddfellows.jpg[/img]

I like the after picture better.

the estimated travel time from the kaufman building to findlay market is 50 seconds.

 

I just walked it in 1:28.  I''m not good with arbitrary sub-neighborhood district boundaries.

This will be watch closely. It better not turn into another LaShawn Pettus-Brown situation. The city can't be expected to drop a half mill on every abandoned building in OTR. They need to pick and choose what's worth saving.

This is similar to the Odd Fellows Hall in Covington in that sadly what they are saving is mostly the facade.  I was in the Odd Fellows Hall before the fire, and the top floor was suspended from iron rods anchored to the roof trusses, and the interior was the coolest thing about the building.  I was also in the Kaufman building before the second fire, and it was a cool interior with a large lightwell with balconies around 3 sides.  However, the rear of this could now make a nice open court or (gasp): parking lot.  I think it is worth saving, but it is a close call because of the expense involved.