smoking ban for bars/clubs = more vibrant street life after dark

 

All in all, a safer urban area with more 'eyes on the street' and a more active looking district with lots of people hanging around outside of the bar/club.

All in all...more access for thugs, punks, predators, and parasites to bar patrons, particularly females.  It's a lot easier to keep those people out of an establishment than away from the doors.

Typically those individuals are not hanging around right outside or a bar/club.  They may be around the corner, but not right there.  Plus there are usually bouncers/doormen at the bar/club entrances, plus a police presence (at least this is the case in Cincinnati).  It is quite safe, and the added people out on the sidewalk makes it a less desirable area to try to maybe mug someone across the street or something even worse.  Having 30-40 pairs of eyes out there isn't very welcoming to the common criminal...but maybe I'm wrong.

I think it depends on how you look at "access". I used to go to Main Street all the time to places like Red Cheetah and The Exchange. Well, you get hasseled for change and screamed at at basically the same places on your way from where you park to inside the club. Bums/crackheads didn't stand right outside of the club, they were around the corner where people are walking back to where they park. With "eyes on the street" I think they're less likely to assault you but not less likely to annoy the hell out of you. If the area is so unsafe that you can't stand right outside of an establishment, as few places in America are, then you need to get the hell out of Dodge.

No offense meant to anyone in particular, but now I know how architects feel when people who don't have any design/engineering/construction background criticize their work.

 

It's all a matter of customer comfort, which is of huge importance to bars (or any other business in the entertainment field.)  In particular, the comfort of younger female patrons.  They don't just want to be safe, they want to feel safe.  Perception is at least as importance as reality, and those "annoyances" may not be nearly as bad as assaults but they still create discomfort.

 

I've seen a lot of posts on this forum about how small neighborhood places are inherently superior to Generica's Lounge (now franchised in suburban malls nationwide) and I most emphatically agree with that.  But the mall-baed places and their ilk have much greater control of their surroundings than small independent businesses that front on sidewalks do. 

 

In any urban or pseudo-urban area, there will occasionally be an issue with annoying people bugging the patrons outside.  The type of people who do this won't leave unless the cops get involved.  No bar wants to be constantly calling the cops, because in any city or suburb, the government's opinion of a bar is inversely proportional to the number of police calls it generates.

 

In other words, yes the surrounding area can be controlled to some degree, but the interior can be controlled much better.  Decks help, but not all bars can build decks.

No offense meant to anyone in particular, but now I know how architects feel when people who don't have any design/engineering/construction background criticize their work.

 

So what is it that an architect knows about sociology...and how is it that they incorporate that into their design (just curious).  I would also like to return the non-offensive material and say that I know how planners feel when people who don't have any planning knowledge think they know better.  Architects design buildings and sometimes larger scale developments.  Planners design neighborhoods, communities and cities.  We are trained to look beyond the bricks/mortar and delve into social issues/concepts and how those relate to our built environment.

 

I'll take some pictures when I'm back in Cincy...the majority of the people in those areas are females (from what I saw).  People feel safe in numbers, and in a decent area you do not have to worry about perps trying stuff with crowds of people like that.  It puts more people out and about, and therefore makes it less hospitable for those crimes of opportunity (ie someone walking down a street with no one around...and you think it's a chance to take off with their purse...or even something worse).

State issues 1st smoking ban fines

BY JON CRAIG | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER

August 27, 2007

 

The Ohio Department of Health has fined 30 businesses and fraternal groups for failing to comply with a statewide smoking ban, officials said today.

 

The Enquirer will update this story.

 

I smoke indoors at my place of employment. I'm not the only one. There are even ashtrays. The smoking ban hasn't even been mentioned by anyone in the office. No one seems to care; the smokers and the nonsmokers.

I doubt very much that any of the bar-smoking complaints are being filed by employees.  Some may be called in by rival bars, but for the most part its likely just random busybodies using the snitch-line.

^Obviously.

^Obviously.

 

I've seen you trolling around the short north with your notepad and cellphone, quit lying.

Not true: I took a job at a rival bar.

pd:

 

First fines issued in state ban on smoking

Wednesday, August 29, 2007

Associated Press

 

Columbus- Twenty-nine fines have been levied against Ohio taverns, veterans halls and even a cab company suspected of violating the state's new public smoking ban. It is the first wave of $100 fines issued since voters approved the ban in November.

 

Jimmy Valentine, manager at Jay's Lakeside Inn in Middletown, said his tavern received a warning letter, but he was unaware of the $100 fine.

 

More at:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1188377990105410.xml&coll=2

Area businesses escape smoking fines - for now

Staff and Wire Reports

08/29/2007

 

COLUMBUS -- Although violations of Ohio's smoking ban have led to fines across the state, no businesses in Lorain, Erie or Huron counties face financial penalties, according to the Ohio Department of Health. Some Lorain County businesses have received warning letters, according to local health departments.

 

 

Post edited 9-4-09 to comply with terms of use

 

©The Morning Journal 2007

 

www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18759577&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=6

 

No smoking - a law, not a suggestion

EDITORIAL | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER

May 4, 2008

 

There appears to be no shortage of reasons why some Ohio bar owners continue to allow patrons to smoke a year after the state began enforcing its smoking ban.

 

Customers just wanted a beer and a smoke after a long day on the job, and they'd stop coming by if bars didn't give it to them.

 

 

Click above link for more.

This is a classic case of a law being implemented despite overwhelming opposition by those actually affected. 

 

"Advocates of the law say similar bans in other states have not only not caused economic fallout but drawn customers to establishments they once avoided because of smoke-filled interiors."

 

I work part time in a bar a good friend of mine owns (for the record, I don't smoke).  The only way this conclusion can be reached is by counting the people that go out every one to three months and don’t stay long, and not counting the impact of the people who used to show up much more often, stay longer, and spend more money.  That’s fact.

 

 

 

I would argue that every person in the State of Ohio who ever goes out to restaurants, bars, clubs, coffee shops, bowling alleys, etc is directly affected by this law.  Obviously the business owners are directly affected as well...and their votes were heard right along with the rest of those who are affected.  The public spoke and they supported the ban.

 

As a result there are a lot of discussions about an Nky smoking ban as well, because the whole case hasn't held up that Ohio businesses would lose out to Nky businesses who didn't have the ban.  There has actually been some indication that the opposite has occurred.

^I remember when Great Lakes Brewing Company's restaurant went smoke-free about 2 or 3 years before the Ohio ban went into effect. Business jumped 10% after GLBC banned smoking.

^I remember when Great Lakes Brewing Company's restaurant went smoke-free about 2 or 3 years before the Ohio ban went into effect. Business jumped 10% after GLBC banned smoking.

 

The restaurant did, you are saying?  Not the bar (assuming they are separate entities)?  There've always been plenty of smoke free restaurants regardless of the law, and pretty much all restaurants had no-smoking sections.  That was the marketplace in play.  That's also a pretty high end place and a tourist/business destination.

 

When the ban was originally supposed to take effect but was blocked, two of our major competitors chose to go ahead and enforce it.  We did not.  We saw a major increase in business, their business decreased.

 

People that go to bars tend to be tolerant of the vices of others, those who do not smoke usually aren't bothered by it.  Likewise the employees.  I'd say sentiment in those groups ran at least 80% against the ban.

 

The right way to protect employees would have been implementing a scientifically supportable PEL on ETS.  It would have also been fair to require "smoking permitted in this establishment".  Beyond that, we are talking about government overreach on the private property rights of the owners in an attempt to modify the behavior of grownups.

I would argue that every person in the State of Ohio who ever goes out to restaurants, bars, clubs, coffee shops, bowling alleys, etc is directly affected by this law.  Obviously the business owners are directly affected as well...and their votes were heard right along with the rest of those who are affected.  The public spoke and they supported the ban.

 

As a result there are a lot of discussions about an Nky smoking ban as well, because the whole case hasn't held up that Ohio businesses would lose out to Nky businesses who didn't have the ban.  There has actually been some indication that the opposite has occurred.

 

I don't have a problem with those that smoke, but understand a ban at commercial establishments.  I do have a problem with the private clubs, Elks, Mooses, Water Buffalos, KofC, VFW, American Legion, where their members can't smoke, and most of the employees are members as well.

 

This is as stupid as my fraternity being required to allow women because it was a professional fraternity.  Funny but they still refer to the members as "brothers".  Would have made for a very interesting initiation in my day, but of course they've outlawed all the "fun" stuff.

^I remember when Great Lakes Brewing Company's restaurant went smoke-free about 2 or 3 years before the Ohio ban went into effect. Business jumped 10% after GLBC banned smoking.

The restaurant did, you are saying?  Not the bar (assuming they are separate entities)?  There've always been plenty of smoke free restaurants regardless of the law, and pretty much all restaurants had no-smoking sections.  That was the marketplace in play.  That's also a pretty high end place and a tourist/business destination.

 

It was the whole place...restaurant and bar.

People that go to bars tend to be tolerant of the vices of others, those who do not smoke usually aren't bothered by it.  Likewise the employees.  I'd say sentiment in those groups ran at least 80% against the ban.

 

Source please.

...I do have a problem with the private clubs, Elks, Mooses, Water Buffalos, KofC, VFW, American Legion, where their members can't smoke, and most of the employees are members as well.

 

I caught that Flintstones reference. And to celebrate...

 

^I remember when Great Lakes Brewing Company's restaurant went smoke-free about 2 or 3 years before the Ohio ban went into effect. Business jumped 10% after GLBC banned smoking.

 

Problem is, I see that as an indication that the free market could work when it comes to smoking bans.

Accordingly, smokeless tobacco has been rising in popularity.

Accordingly, smokeless tobacco has been rising in popularity.

 

and I know I'm more attractive when spitting into a cup than with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth.

FYI, the City of Cleveland and CDCs are being inundated by requests by restaurants/bars for permits to build outdoor patios. 

FYI, the City of Cleveland and CDCs are being inundated by requests by restaurants/bars for permits to build outdoor patios. 

 

i think that is a good sign business has not been affected and way to increase revenue, if they can spread the cost of construction over a few years

Accordingly, smokeless tobacco has been rising in popularity.

 

and I know I'm more attractive when spitting into a cup than with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth.

 

It's spitless now. The market always adjusts.

FYI, the City of Cleveland and CDCs are being inundated by requests by restaurants/bars for permits to build outdoor patios. 

 

i think that is a good sign business has not been affected and way to increase revenue, if they can spread the cost of construction over a few years

 

I think that, in many cases, it's a sign of desperation.  Establishments that already had an outdoor area have a leg up on the competition and attract folks who feel compelled to sip and puff at the same time.  I'm sure that some are thinking that, if they don't do something soon, they'll continue to lose a significant amount of business to those ahead of the curve.

well I just like sitting outside on nice days.  I love to eat and people watch from my perch.

FYI, the City of Cleveland and CDCs are being inundated by requests by restaurants/bars for permits to build outdoor patios. 

 

i think that is a good sign business has not been affected and way to increase revenue, if they can spread the cost of construction over a few years

 

Assuming they have a place to build the patio.  We were fortunate, we have plenty of parking so it was no big deal to knock out a few spaces.  Some other bars are less fortunate.  Then there's winter...

 

It's been a bad law all along.

Accordingly, smokeless tobacco has been rising in popularity.

 

and I know I'm more attractive when spitting into a cup than with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth.

 

It's spitless now. The market always adjusts.

 

You can always get nasal snuff that you snort. It was very popular during the founding of the country, and I think there is even a snuff box still kept stocked on the congressional floor.

I think our Congressional representatives ALREADY have enough stuff in their noses...and up their collective asses!

Nick Naylor: I speak on behalf of cigarettes.

Child: My mommy says that cigarettes kill.

Nick Naylor: Now, is your mommy a doctor?

Child: No.

Nick Naylor: A scientific researcher of some kind?

Child: No.

Nick Naylor: Well, she doesn't exactly sound like a credible expert now, does she?

Child: [sinks back into her chair]

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Nick Naylor: Now, what we need is a smoking role model, a real winner.

Jeff Megall: Indiana Jones meets Jerry Maguire.

Nick Naylor: Right, on two packs a day.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Nick Naylor and his son arguing about ice cream]

Joey: So, what happens when you're wrong?

Nick: Well, Joey, I'm never wrong.

Joey: But you can't always be right.

Nick: Well, if it's your job to be right, then you're never wrong.

Joey: But what if you are wrong?

Nick: Okay, let's say that you're defending chocolate and I'm defending vanilla. Now, if I were to say to you, "Vanilla's the best flavor ice cream", you'd say …?

Joey: "No, chocolate is."

Nick: Exactly. But you can't win that argument. So, I'll ask you: So you think chocolate is the end-all and be-all of ice cream, do you?

Joey: It's the best ice cream; I wouldn't order any other.

Nick: Oh. So it's all chocolate for you, is it?

Joey: Yes, chocolate is all I need.

Nick: Well, I need more than chocolate. And for that matter, I need more than vanilla. I believe that we need freedom and choice when it comes to our ice cream, and that, Joey Naylor, that is the definition of liberty.

Joey: But that's not what we're talking about.

Nick: Ah, but that's what I'm talking about.

Joey: But … you didn't prove that vanilla's the best.

Nick: I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong, I'm right.

Joey: But you still didn't convince me.

Nick: Ah, because I'm not after you. I'm after them.

 

well I just like sitting outside on nice days.  I love to eat and people watch from my perch.

 

Me too, and there's nothing better than eating outside of a restaurant on a busy street. It's entertaining.

 

Accordingly, smokeless tobacco has been rising in popularity.

 

and I know I'm more attractive when spitting into a cup than with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth.

 

It's spitless now. The market always adjusts.

 

You can always get nasal snuff that you snort. It was very popular during the founding of the country, and I think there is even a snuff box still kept stocked on the congressional floor.

 

Yeah I saw that in a foreign-owned convenience store. It's popular in Europe. I told my friend about it, he said he tried it and got a huge nicotine buzz. It sounds gross though.

Ohio Supreme Court rejects appeal on smoking in private clubs

 

Posted by kturner June 04, 2008 11:36AM

Columbus -- The Ohio Supreme Court has rejected an appeal to exempt veterans halls and other private clubs from the state's smoking ban.

 

More:

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2008/06/ohio_supreme_court_rejects_app.html

I happily supported this ban and will continue to support it. And people can say it hurts the economy, but every restaurant I go to now, business is always booming!

I happily supported this ban and will continue to support it. And people can say it hurts the economy, but every restaurant I go to now, business is always booming!

 

Again......it's not the restaurants that were hurt, it was bars and independent coffee houses.  Why should people be able to set such rules in businesses they'd never deign to patronize?  Particularly private clubs.

 

MYOB is becoming a lost concept in this nation.

MYOB...?

 

And a study by the University of Kentucky concluded that there was very little, if any long-term detrimental effect of a smoking ban here in Lexington, Kentucky to bars and restaurants. While some lost business, others saw an increase and most businesses adapted with outdoor patios with NG heating pods.

 

Why should people set rules? Because they make frequent them. I find the analogy that non-smokers do not frequent bars and coffee houses to be absurd; I choose not to light up and frequent both, as do many others apparently. The bars and coffee houses are packed on the weekdays and weekends in a city where a very strict smoking ban has been in effect for years.

MYOB...?

 

 

I'm guessing Mind your own business, but what do I know, I'm not a 12 year old in a chat room.

Personally, I haven't really noticed any decline in business in locally-owned coffee places.  I'm assuming that people went and do go for the coffee...

I happily supported this ban and will continue to support it. And people can say it hurts the economy, but every restaurant I go to now, business is always booming!

 

Shouldn't the smoking ban a very anti-Republican idea?  More government, less freedom, mucking with free-market capitalism...

 

I support the ban, I just don't really understand why someone who is hardcore Republican would also support it.

Shouldn't the smoking ban a very anti-Republican idea? More government, less freedom, mucking with free-market capitalism...

 

Because this wasn't a government imposed restriction.  It is a set of laws voted on by the people. 

Personally, I haven't really noticed any decline in business in locally-owned coffee places.  I'm assuming that people went and do go for the coffee...

 

I owned a coffee house. When we banned smoking, business improved. We saw an influx of new customers, table turnover went up, our material cost went down (less cream and sugar required for the non-smoke impaired taste buds), and a few of our die-hard smoker customers quit smoking, giving them more money to spend on my product.

 

Horrible, horrible thing these smoking bans...

 

 

:clap:  Good to hear!

 

Personally, as a Cincinnati resident, I rarely go over to NKY anymore because of the smoke-filled bars, etc.  I do remember the days of hazing coffee shops and bowling alleys here in Cincy.  It's better kept as a memory.

 

I'm sure people are saving on laundry costs too. ;)

:clap:  Good to hear!

 

Personally, as a Cincinnati resident, I rarely go over to NKY anymore because of the smoke-filled bars, etc.  I do remember the days of hazing coffee shops and bowling alleys here in Cincy.  It's better kept as a memory.

 

I'm sure people are saving on laundry costs too. ;)

 

I can't express how happy the staff was--smokers included. I personally saw a big leap in my energy level after the smoking went away, and yes, we did save on laundry and cleaning costs--we cut our clean-up shift time in half. It was a decision I resisted for a long time. After it was made, though, I was angry I hadn't done it sooner.

I went and checked out an apartment today in Cincinnati.

 

The previous tenant was a smoker. A heavy smoker. Who smoked in his apartment, but kept the windows and fans going thinking it would help.

 

Nope. The tenant moved out three months ago. The carpets REEKED of cigarettes, so much that by the end of the walkaround, my throat and eyes were dry. I sniffed the paint, and it REEKED of cigarettes. The landlord actually revoked his deposit so that he could go in and strip the paint and repaint it with two coats, and replace the carpeting.

 

I don't have that much time to waste. Moving onto another apartment.

^Hardwood floors are better anyway :)

In our search for a used car, we passed on a couple cars because the residue of the smoker was palpable. Love the smoking ban.