The bottom line here is that it makes no financial sense to put money into the sort of 1200-1500 sq foot homes that comprise most of the west side's housing once they deteriorate beyond a certain point.  Rotting joists? Cracked foundation?  Knob & tube wiring?  No central air?  Why drop $100,000 on such a house on a street where hillbillies fly the confederate flag (which I've seen several times over there) when the same amount of money actually earns a return elsewhere in the city?  If people want to go over there and fix up houses as a hobby, well then fine.  But don't wag your finger at people who want to make $50,000, not lose $50,000. 

The original historic fabric was built in the absence of such codes, and the current revitalization is taking place without them. All FBC will get us is sterile, The Banks-esque infill. While there are some nuggets we should bite off and add into our current zoning codes, replacing it with FBC will lead to the ultimate vanillazation of Cincinnati.

 

This is a bit of an over simplification.  The original historic fabric was also built on insanely cheap labor, a portion of which was comprised of skilled artisans.  Code or no-code, with current wages and benefits, you're just never going to get the same level of quality on a mass scale because few are willing to pay what it would cost. 

 

Also, American tastes have unfortunately changed for the worse.  100 years ago people took pride in the facade of a beautiful Italianate building in a neighborhood that their whole family grew up in and cherished.  Today, people will happily live in a plastic-sided box way out in Mason in exchange for a lower purchase price and 4000+ square feet.

The irony is that there is substantial historic quality throughout Cincinnati that the city and most on this board, have just written off. I don't know if its a lack of vision or that's the way its always been here.

^It's opportunity cost. Most people see the buildings in places like Knox Hill as lower priorities. They would rather invest where they see a possible return. I would much rather put $200k in a neighborhood I think is doing better and should see a return (OTR, Walnut Hills, East Walnut Hills, etc), than in a neighborhood I think is falling into disrepair or unlikely to become a better neighborhood during my investment (North Fairmount, South Fairmount, South Cumminsville, etc).

 

If I could save every historic building I want to, I would be happy to save these buildings in Knox Hill. I don't think most people are against saving these buildings, they are just realistic about where they want to put their money. Sometimes people have different opinions about what is a priority to save.

The original historic fabric was built in the absence of such codes, and the current revitalization is taking place without them. All FBC will get us is sterile, The Banks-esque infill. While there are some nuggets we should bite off and add into our current zoning codes, replacing it with FBC will lead to the ultimate vanillazation of Cincinnati.

 

This is a bit of an over simplification.  The original historic fabric was also built on insanely cheap labor, a portion of which was comprised of skilled artisans.  Code or no-code, with current wages and benefits, you're just never going to get the same level of quality on a mass scale because few are willing to pay what it would cost. 

 

Also, American tastes have unfortunately changed for the worse.  100 years ago people took pride in the facade of a beautiful Italianate building in a neighborhood that their whole family grew up in and cherished.  Today, people will happily live in a plastic-sided box way out in Mason in exchange for a lower purchase price and 4000+ square feet.

 

Or more bluntly, people walked back (or took streetcar/subway) in the day as opposed to the reliance of the automobile.  FBC, while not perfect, at least attempts to bring the pedestrian back in the equation.

Form-based codes are exactly the kinds of codes and covenants that were used to build Cincinnati's best neighborhoods.  No it wasn't as micromanaged as it is today, nor as formal, and that's a worthy criticism of any zoning code, but basic design criteria were in place decades before the use-based Euclidian zoning of today was developed.  Even residential streetcar suburbs had covenants attached to the lot specifying things like the build-to line, minimum building sizes, materials to be used, and even a floor on construction cost.  That's the exact opposite of the codes today, and yet trying to swing the pendulum back the other way a bit is somehow bad for those same neighborhoods?  And just because one particular agency might be using form-based codes to achieve a somewhat more egalitarian land-use pattern, which I guess is an unforgivable sin for some reason, that automatically makes form-based codes bad?  Wow. 

  Why drop $100,000 on such a house on a street where hillbillies fly the confederate flag (which I've seen several times over there)

 

Didn't someone ask you to stop insulting neighborhoods?  Will you condemn an entire side of town for the actions of a few?  Are there no bigots where you grew up?

wait, does UO support the Confederacy now?

 

  Why drop $100,000 on such a house on a street where hillbillies fly the confederate flag (which I've seen several times over there)

 

Didn't someone ask you to stop insulting neighborhoods?  Will you condemn an entire side of town for the actions of a few?  Are there no bigots where you grew up?

 

 

It's absolutely insane that it's 2014 and people are still flying confederate flags at all, let alone in the north.  Anyone doing that can't be reasoned with and I don't want to live around them. 

Gee, we did  quick check and saw not one confederate flag in my neighborhood, several gay pride flags but no confederate flags. Saw a lot of houses under restoration though.

  Why drop $100,000 on such a house on a street where hillbillies fly the confederate flag (which I've seen several times over there)

 

Didn't someone ask you to stop insulting neighborhoods?  Will you condemn an entire side of town for the actions of a few?  Are there no bigots where you grew up?

 

 

It's absolutely insane that it's 2014 and people are still flying confederate flags at all, let alone in the north.  Anyone doing that can't be reasoned with and I don't want to live around them.

 

You're right condemn the entire neighborhood.  There are drug pushers where you live.  What is worse?

I have a deal to write a book on Knox Hill right now, which I'm doing as fundraiser for our save not raze program.

 

it would be nice to get back on topic of Cincinnati & Historic Preservation because that's what this thread is about and finding solutions to saving more historic buildings no matter what side of town they are on.

 

We are losing historic structures at an alarming rate over 250 this year alone. We need to be looking at solutions on restoration, preservation and attracting people willing to come to this city and save things that, unfortunately most people who have live here all their lives could care less about.

 

That's why this thread was started.

Location, location, location. 

 

A nice house in a nice neighborhood is great, a nice house in a crappy neighborhood is clearly not a product that many people are interested in.  It's not that locals "don't get it" but that they're simply not interested in sinking a bunch of money into a house in a lousy neighborhood, especially when there's so many better houses in nicer neighborhoods.  Simple supply and demand shows that few people want to live in these houses/neighborhoods, that's why they're so cheap.  Out-of-towners can be tricked into moving into certain areas, because they don't know what they're missing...yet. 

So jjakucyk, using your logic, people should never have restored in Pendleton , or OTR because both were 'crappy neighborhoods'. As I recall Columbia Tusculum was pretty run down too once upon a time , in fact they wanted to build a highway through it. So you are saying the Banks was bad idea too?  Or that people are wasting their time in Newport and Covington? Please enlighten me, and the rest of us on this board as to which neighborhoods are worthy of restoration.

 

If we follow your logic hem nothing would ever be restored.

This conversation sucks.

 

Everyone, quit taking everyone's comments to the extreme. I'm locking it because I'm sick of this.

Glad to see this topic is reopened. Just for anyone's interest who may have been watching this unfold, the State Ave property is now shown as pending. I was told there were multiple offers, so apparently there was great deal of interest and its location did not deter those who wanted a great restoration of a great house. This is good sign of the ability of neighborhoods to restore and that preservation can trigger change and move forward any neighborhood in a positive manner and is a good thing for the ENTIRE Cincinnati preservation community.

1508 Race St.  Owned by OTR Holdings.  Incredible details on the windows, door, and cornice: 

 

 

Crack between facade and side wall:

 

 

It's an absolutely massive building:

 

 

Big hole in the back wall and roof:

 

 

On the streetcar line and a block and a half from Washington Park. As far as I know there are no plans to redevelop; the 15th and Race project was to take place across the street before it got put on hold.  Is this building in immediate danger?  Stuff like this is why I keep playing the lottery...

That building has been abandoned for at least 15 years.  I remember it being empty with no windows back when there was still a corner store operating in the basement of the church that is now being converted into Taft Ale House in the late 90s.  That damage on the front might have been caused by sloppy demolition of the adjacent building.  The back gutter looks like it might have been clogged for most of the 1980s-90s, causing the roof to rot through in the 2000s. 

 

OTR Holdings is 3CDC.

 

And that raises the 'different standards' argument that if you area preferred contractor the city looks the other was. I know of homes that were VBML'd and condemned and demoed over minor issues and you have  structure like this with clear structural issues that need more immediate attention.

 

I spent a great deal of time with city officials to get city inspectors to "back off" the overly aggressive VBML task force. Unfortunately the VBML has become a 'revenue stream' for the city. WE use the majority of our CDBG  (Community DEVELOPMENT Block Grant) monies on demolition with no redevelopment component. This results in an erosion of our tax base, leaves communities with the issues of vacant lots and illegal dumping since the city has no money to cut the lots.

 

That was the primary reason we started our save not raze program which acquires endangered property and stabilizes it.  This is an activity that frankly the city should be doing with CDBG funding.

 

Other cities like Milwaukee do this:

 

http://city.milwaukee.gov/HistoricHouses

 

In a conversation last year with Ed Cunningham, he related that he was only allocated 200,000 for stabilization efforts CITY WIDE! that allows him to do two projects one in Price Hill and one in Bond Hill.

 

At the same time we demo 250 homes. Clearly there is no leadership in the preservation community and  the demo contractor lobby is running the show. We should be devoting a majority of our CDBG funding to stabilization efforts. That will require council action to seek modification of our CDBG grant applications to refocus our efforts.

^^^ It is 1508 Race, not 1408. It is a prime example of how much work needs to be done to repair some of the typical buildings in OTR. While it could be renovated into 8 one bedrooms, or 4 or 6 huge apartments, the money for the up front costs just isn’t there. Luckily though, OTR is probably the only neighborhood where a building like this could still generate income for the owner because the rent prices are some of the highest in the region.

^Whoops!  Fixed it.  Thanks.

Three unique apartment projects in the works for Cincinnati

 

John Watson isn’t just looking to transform one Cincinnati building into apartments. He’s got plans for three.

 

Watson is CEO of Indianapolis-based Core Redevelopment LLC, a real estate company that has come up with some pretty creative solutions for buildings. He’s working on redeveloping the former School for Creative and Performing Arts in Pendleton and the eight-story Crosley Building along Interstate 75 in Camp Washington. And he was just awarded nearly $1 million in Ohio Historic Preservation Tax Credits for a third project – the conversion of Windsor Elementary School into market-rate apartments.

We all know that city inspection  has a 'one size fits all" approach to buildings and once its got orders on it its almost impossible to do anything with it.

 

Today on my Blog I wrote about a man in Price Hill who is about to throw in the towel on a house he bought, puts thousands into, and now he has it on ebay where he will be lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar.

 

http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.blogspot.com/2014/08/city-drives-out-homeownerrestorer-in.html

 

I was struck by his honesty in how he was blindsided by the city for just buying a house and trying to do the right thing with it.

 

"You would think when a man with no criminal record goes into a neighborhood , hires the unemployed to work , starts fixing up property ,trying to be a good neighbor, and making a home . Local government would want to do everything possible to assist , not fine -fee -and harass . . By the time I would be able to move in , I would have paid the city the cost of the house "

 

The SAD thing here is this is MOST people's experience with this city. You come in and you try to SAVE something and your worst enemy, the one throwing up red tape and roadblocks, is the city vacant buildings task force and city legal for the 'bad deeds' of a prior owner.

 

Our current policies are not working and probably contributing to Covington and Newport's preservation efforts because people would rather buy across the river than deal with City of Cincinnati. This case is a perfect illustration of the problem and I encourage everyone to get involved and try to educate the new mayor and council to the fact that we need SERIOUS policy change. When someone comes in and is clearly demonstrating they are doing the right thing the city should back off. Maybe there is a way to turn this situation around. We need to keep this man in our community not drive him away and maybe, just maybe , its not too late.

 

We cannot grow our city when Vacant Building Task Force and city Inspections are making it impossible to effect change in our neighborhoods. We have to stop 'criminalizing' historic preservation and restoration. We should be rewarding people like this for coming in and fixing things.

Would these issues have shown up as property leins had this buyer done due diligence?

Would these issues have shown up as property leins had this buyer done due diligence?

 

No. while the city has in the VBML ordinance the ability to concert for example the VBML  'fine' into a lien, they do not do it (basically because they get sued). So somebody buys a property  (often a foreclosure)  from a bank and when you do the title work you get a clear title usually from FHA since they usually have these and FHA has NO WAY of knowing about city orders. VBML is unique to Cincinnati and most locals don't know about it, nor do lenders. You do everything you should do. You do a title search, you buy your home expecting to fix it and move in and you are getting it ready and a few months in you get a VBML order  (kicked from the prior owner) AND you are told you cannot occupy the home. Which as we all know if imperative in most neighborhoods to keep from getting broken into and ripped off.

 

Even worse you now cant get a loan on it because banks wont make loans on "encumbered property with threat of legal action and liens". So the out of pocket money you spent trying to get the house to appraise for enough to get a loan is now impossible as you've just been effectively  "redlined' by the city.

thanks!

I don't know how often RestorationConsultant is on these boards nowadays, but I did he apparently is selling his home here in Cincinnati?  I enjoyed following his progress on his blog as he worked to restore the home several years back.  I don't recall seeing many updates over the last year or two though.  I had just assumed the work on the home was complete, but instead, it sounds like they may have been busy with other projects and didn't have time to fully complete this restoration.

 

http://historicproperties.com/detail.asp?detail_key=nccin031

 

Hopefully he's planning on sticking around in Cincinnati (even if he won't be calling South Fairmount his home anymore). 

 

Anybody know is he is going to be sticking around the Cincinnati area?  I didn't necessarily agree with all of his views on historic preservation, but I do think he is an asset to have in terms of preservation.

 

From his Facebook page: "We own several Cincinnati properties under various levels of restoration in Knox Hill and I have get our design center/ open this year . I have not figured out how to get 30 hrs in a 24 hr day, so we are thinning the herd of properties a bit. Plus our last vacation was 2002. In short, I'd like to slow down a bit."

Wally, the decision to find a new steward for Nagel Merz House was a tough one. On one hand I would have loved to hold it , on the other hand there is work to do and I don't have time to do it. We have 3 full restoration projects going on right now in Knox Hill, I publish the Rustbelt Preservationist blog almost daily. I have two major stencil/mural restoration projects to do for clients this year in other states, plus our normal client consulting load nationally (I'm booked solid through 2016). To that, add running our own historic stencil business, our antique business, and we are working on getting the design center up this year. Plus I run the Knox Hill Save not Raze program and am on the Board of Directors for Knox Hill. Not to mention 'nudging' MSD into advertising four historic eligible buildings for move rather than simply demo them.

 

I am hopeful we can find the right buyer for Nagele-Merz house and thus far I have several inquiries from mostly out of state preservationists interested, plus an inquiry from thisoldhouse magazine about doing a piece on it.

 

So hopefully I can share the "preservation love" with others who can restore some of these homes we have kept away from slumlords by buying an stabilizing them and lighted my own workload just a little bit.

My wife and I live in a renovated late 1800s townehome in OTR that is having some roof leaking issues near the two rooftop hatches.  Could anyone recommend a roofer that handles repair work for flat-top historic buildings?

My wife and I live in a renovated late 1800s townehome in OTR that is having some roof leaking issues near the two rooftop hatches.  Could anyone recommend a roofer that handles repair work for flat-top historic buildings?

 

I had a new roof put on by Ray St. Clair.  They didn't replace the actual roof hatch but they did do new flashing around it.  I would guess that that is your issue and so really any roofer could handle it and it shouldn't be a big job. 

 

http://www.molloyroofing.com/

 

I don't know for certain that they do it, but I'd be surprised if they don't.

So recently I purchased a home on Dayton St which includes this carriage house.  According to neighbors this structure has been neglected for the past twenty years.  It is my intention to do everything I can to try and save this IF it can be saved, but I'm not a masonry expert unfortunately.  Can anyone recommend any reputable contractors that have done historic brick/masonry work within our area? 

 

So recently I purchased a home on Dayton St which includes this carriage house.  According to neighbors this structure has been neglected for the past twenty years.  It is my intention to do everything I can to try and save this IF it can be saved, but I'm not a masonry expert unfortunately.  Can anyone recommend any reputable contractors that have done historic brick/masonry work within our area? 

 

Doug Waggoner: (513) 560-0484

Monnette Masonry: (937) 379-1276

 

Just sent you an e-mail.

Awesome!

Thanks guys!  I'm on it!

 

Very cool.  Is that thing two stories?

Yes, two stories on the Naeher St side and one story facing Dayton St

Cincinnati City Council makes historic music industry site a landmark

Oct 7, 2015, 2:55pm EDT

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter and columnist Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

The site of the old King Records building is now a historic landmark after the Cincinnati City Council voted unanimously on Wednesday in favor of the designation.

 

But landmarking the site where James Brown recorded could put the city of Cincinnati in court because the building’s owner, Dynamic Industries, wants to demolish the site for an unspecified new project.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/10/07/cincinnati-city-council-makes-historic-music.html

Cincinnati preservation collective looking for like minded applicants to the Conservation Board:

Thanks guys!  I'm on it!

 

Just curious what the fate of that carriage house was.  If it is able to be restored, you need to post some pics after the work is done!

It is still in process and according to several masons able to be saved.  I will post pictures as things get rolling.   

Demolition likely for the former Hudepohl Brewery in Queensgate: http://www.wcpo.com/news/insider/demolition-a-possibility-for-iconic-hudepohl-brewing-company-site

Building that witnessed both of A. Lincoln's elections is being torn down. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/02/08/city-decides-fate-of-historic-fifth-street.html

^We've been discussing this in the Cincinnati: Demolition Watch thread.  Apparently, the damage to the building was done intentionally by the owner.  The city should not allow them to demolish this building.  At least not without criminal charges.  The current owner should be required to either stabilize the building immediately or sell/transfer it to something like 3CDC.  Otherwise, what's the point of even having an Historic Conservation Board if owners can demolish their own properties without a permit?

 

Does anybody know what's going on with the USPS building in Queensgate at Liberty and Dalton? There has been a scaffolding up for a few months now.

The Administration is appointing three new HCB members:

 

Ean Seimer , Pamela Smith, and Allison McKenzie.