I think the city's actions encourages those opposed to progress.

Not those being constructively critical of it. 

 

I do not like it when people refer to OTR north of Liberty as the "Northern Gateway"

 

Rewind again....There is the French Quarter and The Garden District in New Orleans and that's pretty much it.  Combined they comprise a little over a square mile.  Much of the rest of New Orleans is crappy 1970's apartment complexes and dreadful public housing. We've definitely got more quality surviving 18th century stuff here than there.  Plus we have a variety of truly iconic structures that New Orleans cannot match -- they have no landmark bridge, they have nothing that can match Music Hall, nothing like Union Terminal, nothing like The Carew Tower.   

 

First, I would completely disagree that NOLA is dreadful outside of those two neighborhoods. Uptown, Mid-City, Faubourg Marigny, Holy Cross, etc. all are historically interesting. Sure they cannot compete with the iconic landmarks you mention, but the vibrancy of the French Quarter or the awe of the Garden District just does not exist in Cincinnati. Bridges and skyscrapers are great for postcards; people are attracted to intimate districts of sensation.

I do not like it when people refer to OTR north of Liberty as the "Northern Gateway"

I live north of Liberty and I have never heard that term. Are you sure they aren't saying Northern Liberties?

Here is a great blog post that details out what I was trying to say, but in a more concise (and not rushed) manner:

http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.blogspot.com/2010/01/foreclosure-crisiscincinnati-solution.html

Is there a 10 year tax abatement in place in Indy?  I have so many problems with this guys assessments.  It is as if he is too smart by half.

Yes, there is Michael. Even Paducah, Kentucky has a far more innovative program to rehabilitate dilapidated structures than most cities, including Cincinnati. Profiled in Nat Geo and on several other national news programs, the city had neighborhoods that were distressed but not to the point of Over-the-Rhine or the West End, but it was going down a path that needed major correction. The city purchased up many of these vacant parcels and properties. They then resold the properties to interested buyers for $1...with the requirement that the new owners renovate or rehabilitate the structure, and then live in it for a set amount of time. It worked. Why can't that happen here to an extent?

I am still trying to get the details on the abatement in Indy. I have found the ones for business but I am trying to see the length and investment criteria for receiving it for residential.

 

I have found this

Eastside Revitalization District

This district provides for a five year real property tax abatement to property owners that demolish or renovating existing buildings.

 

I don't think we do abatement here for demolition. To me that seems as though no assessment for improvement would be abatement enough.  But those Indy people are ahead of us I guess.

 

The city purchased up many of these vacant parcels and properties. They then resold the properties to interested buyers for $1

That did happen here for a long time (Holly and I looked at several ourselves with the help of the city) and generally the city never purchases the properties, but rather ceases them through abandonment or tax delinquencies. 3CDC received most of those properties that were "city owned" and you are seeing the results of that today. So how many rehabbed properties is Paducah bringing on line yearly vs OTR?

I do not like it when people refer to OTR north of Liberty as the "Northern Gateway"

I live north of Liberty and I have never heard that term.  Are you sure they aren't saying Northern Liberties?

 

Me either, but I've been thinking we should rebrand the area of OTR north of Liberty as "NoLib."  :evil:

We should make a bumper sticker.

Even Paducah, Kentucky has a far more innovative program to rehabilitate dilapidated structures than most cities, including Cincinnati.

 

Isn't Cincinnati one of the first cities in America to offer a historic LEED tax incentive?  From the developers I've spoken with in OTR this has come in very handy and made restoration efforts there more financially doable.

 

But with this said, I think Jake's point is that it is financially easier for places like Paducah, KY; Charleston, SC; or even New Orleans, LA to offer more robust incentive programs for historic property restoration because quite simply they have less of a product qualified for such an incentive.  For example, Paducah could offer a massive incentive to the tune of $50k per property for this kind of work, and if they only have lets say 100 properties that qualify then that's a maximum utilization of $5M.  Whereas if Cincinnati incorporates the same incentive but has 1,000 of those properties then the maximum utilization of city resources balloons to $50M.

 

Like Jake has said, there are few cities that can compete with the volume of historic properties that Cincinnati has and therefore it's somewhat difficult to compare the policy implemented in cities much smaller or with a much smaller inventory of historic properties.  I think what would be most beneficial for Cincinnati is to look at how we can improve on what we're already doing well.  We do have several well-preserved historic neighborhoods throughout the city, but we also have several historic neighborhoods that are struggling.  What can be learned from the success stories, how can the City create new incentives, and how can we improve economic conditions in the neighborhoods that are struggling most to the point where people can have disposable incomes that can be spent on historic property maintenance?

http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.blogspot.com/2010/01/another-over-rhine-building-headed-for.html

 

24 Elder.

 

There has been no section 106 hearing held on this property Required if federal dollars ae used. Even if they are using capital Improvemnt funds fro demo,(Who Knows?) there ought to be some sort of public input if tax dollars are used.

On ez track I am seeing one hazardous abatement order after another. I haven't read your article yet, what was hazardous? And that building wasn't found to be open to anyone who just wanted to stroll in was it?

 

I guarantee you that if you contact the owner, you could buy it pretty cheap. I say go for it! Which other buildings have you rehabbed in OTR so far?

 

I think Cincinnati is better off looking to cities that were its peers when our greatest neighborhoods were built. I'd start with the big dogs of the East Coast - the bigger cities of Massachusetts, Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Baltimore, D.C., I'd toss in Cleveland, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, maybe Chicago, Milwaukee, Louisville. Cincinnati no longer is a tourist center (unlike it was during the antebellum era when slaveholders headed to north to escape the misery of the Deep South).

New Orleans probably has to be included in that list, but I think it's iconic stature as a tourist location makes it a harder comparison.

Michael the best thing I thing Indy has its its FLIP program run by Indiana Historic Landmarks which is like CPA except they have money. They buy endangered property, or get it from the city. they stabilize the outside, new roof and paint and then sell the property to a financially qualified person or developer who finishes the restoration to prservation standards. They have 18 months with extensions granted on large homes, to complete it or it goes back to Landmarks.

 

Sometimes slumlords will choose to donate the property to Landmarks rather than face fines and repair orders from the city. Sometimes they can donate to a local neighborhood group, perhaps not qualified to "hold' property under its 501C3 abd it can be stabilized and resold.

 

Indiana  now has a law that prevents the owner of any property who has orders against it, from buying any forclosed property and they are prohibited from buying tax sale property if taxes are not current on property they already own.

 

Flip program Properties: http://www.historiclandmarks.org/ForSale/Pages/default.aspx

 

The hardest part for most people restoring is getting the exterior and roof done properly. Common prolem in OTR. By stabilizing the house it makes the interior restoarion easier. I wish 3CDC could be pursuaded to start a program like this as it would allow them to let go of some property they have been holding and encourage others to come in. There is no way they will ever be able to restore everything they own.

 

 

 

Jesus.  Yet again, downtown Paducah is smaller than OTR.  It is characterized primarily by parking lots.  There are two or three "skyscrapers" (Boss Cobb Hotel?  Trying to remember), a little arts area that covers about 4 blocks, and a new performing arts hall that is decidedly 3rd-tier.  There are about 5 restaurants and a 1-screen movie theater.  Apparently this is enough to write an in-flight mag article about.  These buildings are all 2-3 floors and none of them, once again, approach the size of, say, the Moerlein Brewery. 

 

I have by chance lived and worked in both Paducah and New Orleans.  I had several crew changes in both places when I worked on towboats and have been to these cities several other times for other reasons.  I traveled to New Orleans before and after the hurricane several times. Again, mile after mile of New Orleans is (was) completely nondescript postwar sprawl stuff and its old shotgun house neighborhoods are like comparing Latonia, KY's 1800's housing stock to Cincinnati's.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

choose to donate the property to Landmarks rather than face fines and repair orders from the city. Sometimes they can donate to a local neighborhood group, perhaps not qualified to "hold' property under its 501C3 abd it can be stabilized and resold.

That can be done anywhere and has as much to do with taxation as anything because the value of the donation is higher with a building on it vs without. You can do that today, right here. It has been done for years with both the church and the school system.

 

Indiana now has a law that prevents the owner of any property who has orders against it, from buying any forclosed property

So if you and I were neighbors in Indiana and we both wanted to bid on a pa rcel of land between our houses, I would simply have to file a complaint against you to the building dept? Sounds fair.  Plus, didn't you say in one of your post that the city was on you about something?  Would that negate you from purchase of city property?  Fair?

 

I wish 3CDC could be pursuaded to start a program like this as it would allow them to let go of some property they have been holding and encourage others to come in.

There is. Have you called Holly or Stacy to ask about the program?

 

There is no way they will ever be able to restore everything they own.

Do you know how many developers they have? all I can say is so far so good with 3CDC.

When you attend a tax sale you have to register, They run your other property ownership and they have a problem property database. If you have open orders, you are in the data base and you do not get a number You also do not get a number if you have delinquent taxes.

 

In order to transfer and record a deed in many states you have to pay all delinquent taxes. I have been lobbying for this change for Ohio as it would eliminate the "slumlord shuffle of LLC"S trading property in pools for zero dollars to avoid city orders.

If you have open orders, you are in the data base and you do not get a number You also do not get a number if you have delinquent taxes.

So my theory would work, I could torpedo a known competitive bidder before hand? And on the taxes, could I not just form a quick llc to bid?  Indiana sounds great.

Could someone in CPA please make online payment an option to join?

 

Great discussion going on here. 

 

Despite the challenges that have been facing the area for decades, the excuses for failure have been exhausted.  The time is now to confront the real issues that have kept Over-the-Rhine notorious and create a new dynamic for Cincinnati.

 

German Village in Columbus and the Oregon District in Dayton illuminate some of the challenges and opportunities for OTR.  The German Village Society and the Oregon Historic District Society were formed by residents of each neighborhood in 1960 and 1973, respectively.  OTR's comparable institution, the OTR Foundation, was formed in 1992 however.  OTR is behind its counterparts around the country, but its future is not condemned to the sloth, squalor and vice of its past. 

 

The history of racial unrest is behind us so long as there is an open forum for all sensible sides to address.

the excuses for failure have been exhausted.

Failure?  We are bringing on line hundreds of new homes and selling at a faster clip than anyone in the city.  OTR is not failing, it is flourishing.  New businesses, new homes and more positive press than any of us could have ever hoped for just a few years ago.

 

The saying at the bottom of your page is not true for OTR, it is the reverse.

the excuses for failure have been exhausted.

Failure? We are bringing on line hundreds of new homes and selling at a faster clip than anyone in the city. OTR is not failing, it is flourishing. New businesses, new homes and more positive press than any of us could have ever hoped for just a few years ago.

Correct, I was mostly alluding to its past and the lack of regional support for the region's best and the nation's largest, most intact urban historic district.

 

Didn't mean it as a slight to you, the revitalization that's going on or anyone on UO really. 

 

I just don't think that is true. Look at the make up of 3CDC. Kroger, P & G and all of the developers that weren't always into city develpement. I think the support is there, the will is there, the money is there, now we just need the time for the market to absorb what is being produced. Could we use more support? Always.

 

I didn't take it as a slight, I appreciate the enthusiasm.

No Micheal you couldnt just torpedo a bidder. you do not get on the problem property list overnight. These people are real problem property owners. Therse are people with multiple violations, who have failed to show up for court dates, people who have rented property raided multiple times for drug and prostitution. They typically own multiple properties and all are bad.

 

Indy doesnt bulldoze house for no reason like Cincinnati does. They do not bulldoze over  no downspouts for example. They also know how to use Receivership as a tool and generally speaking they will almost always repair rather than demo.

 

Demolition is a last resort, as it should be in Cincinnati.

Seth, the one thing Ive learned from my year in Cincinnati preservation community is we are a 'timid' bunch.

 

I've upset a few of the locals by actively challengeing the  "status quo" and the way this city conducts the VBML program and their demolitions whcih may violate Federal Law.

 

The Preservation Community spends a lot of time on OTR, it is an important area and in fact I'm looking for the right building to restore and put my business in, so I understand the importance of OTR.

 

That being said we have a lot of great historic neighborhoods that are being decimated by the city's demolition policy which I call "Blight=Bulldozer". We need to concentrate on all of our Urban neighborhoods, not just OTR.

 

My neighborhood of Knox Hill which is planning on submitting its registry nomination this year, is in a constant battle with the city over demolitions. If the city spent a fraction of the money they spend on demolition on stabilization,my neighborhood could be turned around in a year. Mt Auburn, Avondale, Price Hill, Walnut Hills , Fairmount and Westwood are in a constant battle to try to save historic architecture.

 

Cincinnati is a complex Preservation situation. And as a Historic preservation consultant with 20 yrs experience who has worked in Charleson SC, Savannah, Louisville , New Orleans, San Francisco, and Indianapolis, I see the potential for this city but the Preservation Community needs to "grow a pair" and take on the city and its demo policy.

^Agreed.  That's part of what I mean about "failure is no longer an option."  Suburbanites who only care about (their) quality of life should be involved in preservation.  Alas, it's hard enough to get urbanites to care.

 

Keep up the good work, progress is being made!

If you have open orders, you are in the data base and you do not get a number You also do not get a number if you have delinquent taxes.

vs

multiple violations, who have failed to show up for court dates, people who have rented property raided multiple times for drug and prostitution

So the criminally prosecuted can not. That makes more sense. Could the criminally prosecuted's llc make the purchase?

 

Bottom line is that you seem to want to preach to a bunch of people here how bad Cincy is yet we are here on the ground everyday rehabbing every bit as much, if not more than you. I am proud of what my city has done with turning around both the CBD and OTR and am more encouraged everyday as that catalyst brings more homeowners and businesses to the area. It may be your attitude towards the city and the tactics of bashing it every chance you get that is holding you back. You look for problems much more than you look for solutions, you aim at the roadblocks vs the simple bypass that is right in front of you.

I wish you well and hope you continue to restore buildings but your constant pessimism may serve more as a dissuasion to people looking to rehab. If for every one building you complete, you convince 2 not to rehab, what have we accomplished. Indy may better suit you.

 

And they are still in the playoffs. Prolly gonna win the SB.

I read "northern gateway" off one of the newspapers

stories about the brewery fire.  i was like no! please!

rofl @ NoLibs

 

The business courier ran a story about receivership recently but i can't read it without a subscription. 

 

That paper seems to put allot of effort (in print) into supporting the neighborhood.

s good.

 

rofl @ NoLibs

^That name might win over the Republican exurbs!

I read "northern gateway" off one of the newspapers

That was from an Enquire article where Chris Rose said that although Gateway is progressing, we need a "northern gateway" and not simply ignore the Brewery Dist.  He was saying we need a development like Gateway to the north of liberty and not trying to rename it.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/print/article/20100115/BIZ01/1160359/Pushing-redevelopment-north-in-OTR

"It may be your attitude towards the city and the tactics of bashing it every chance you get that is holding you back.  You look for problems much more than you look for solutions, you aim at the roadblocks vs the simple bypass that is right in front of you.

I wish you well and hope you continue to restore buildings but your constant pessimism may serve more as a dissuasion to people looking to rehab."

 

No Michael I've just been working in cities that used to be in the shape Cincinnati is now and if you sit back and deal with " Simple bypasses" and let the city get away with it you have a Bunch of vacant lots.

 

Our neighborhood has formally complained to State Preservation who holds the programatic agrement with the city on its use of federal CDBG funds. The city appears to have been violating Federal laws without conducting a open Section 106 review in which the Presevation community has an input on the impact of demolition where federal funds are used whcih means maybe hundreds of properties could have been saved if we had had a process in place for proper input.

 

Based on our information we recieved from State Pressevation we have filed a formal "citizen complaint" with HUD which will compel the city to reply as to how they conduct section 106 hearings. IF, they can not, document the process, HUD can stop the flow of Federal monies for demolition, until they have a process in place. Further it could mean a review of those properties already on the demo list and could cause a removal of dozens of properties on that list in OTR alone not to mention other areas.

 

The city and county is about to get 24 Million in NSP funds and a significant part of that will be used for demos in Avondale, Price Hill and other  urban areas.

 

If we don't have a process in place while you are working out "simple bypasses' with city officials we could lose much of Cincinnati to a Bulldozer, in the next few years.

 

 

 

If we don't have a process in place while you are working out "simple bypasses'

one of those bypasses I was referring to was the VBML.  have you ever applied for your waiver or are you just going to fight it all the way to the ohio supreme court?  The building dept bypasses as well that instead of taking an adversarial approach as it seems you do, have you ever tried to preemptively schedule meetings with them to explain a development plan?

 

There are processes in place that allows for a smoother development and not the doomsday scenerios that you always describe...ie "bulldoze over  no downspouts for example."

Actaully the VBML is already being debated at the state court level and may soon be at the Supreme Court depending on what happens next. The City of Cincinati is currently defending several lawsuits over VBML and several more are in process from what I understand. Ultimately that issue will wind up in Federal Court probably based on "governmental redlining' and discriminatory application.

 

Of course that is nothing compared to what happens if the city is found to have violated Federal law with CDBG funds, didn't have proper section 106 review process with public input and record keeping AND violated due process to all those property owners who had their property demoed by the city, using Federal money. Thats a BIG Federal Class action lawsuit.

 

A good friend of mine who happens to be a retired Federal Appellate Court Judge has looked at the VBML ordinance , its application and it's waiver process and he said it's not worth the paper its written on. Its discriminatory in application and denies certain due processes.

 

But I am here to talk about Preservation issues rather than the failure of this city government to write repair orders rather than create "revenue streams" with the VBML program. I am happy to discuss preservation and organizational strategies however.

The VBML process is severely flawed.  It should goto the supreme court.  For the selective (discriminatory) enforcement alone amongst other things.   

Jesus. Yet again, downtown Paducah is smaller than OTR. It is characterized primarily by parking lots. There are two or three "skyscrapers" (Boss Cobb Hotel? Trying to remember), a little arts area that covers about 4 blocks, and a new performing arts hall that is decidedly 3rd-tier. There are about 5 restaurants and a 1-screen movie theater. Apparently this is enough to write an in-flight mag article about. These buildings are all 2-3 floors and none of them, once again, approach the size of, say, the Moerlein Brewery.

 

I have by chance lived and worked in both Paducah and New Orleans. I had several crew changes in both places when I worked on towboats and have been to these cities several other times for other reasons. I traveled to New Orleans before and after the hurricane several times. Again, mile after mile of New Orleans is (was) completely nondescript postwar sprawl stuff and its old shotgun house neighborhoods are like comparing Latonia, KY's 1800's housing stock to Cincinnati's.

 

Why do you compare the building stock or quantity of a city to Cincinnati? That's not the intent or purpose of my specific examples that I've provided. My point was that they thought outside of the box when handling these deteriorating situations. Cincinnati hasn't. Yeah, we are getting "hundreds of units" online in the Gateway Quarter, but this is something that is LONG overdue in Over-the-Rhine. We have lost nearly half of the original building stock for this neighborhood, and the West End has essentially little historic housing stock remaining in any contiguous shape.

 

And then we have little going for many other neighborhoods. Price Hill is pock marked by vacant parcels and buildings. Knox Hill is peppered by buildings that are salvageable but marked for demolition (not restoration). And on, and on.

 

And then you can walk through Covington or Newport. Blocks and blocks of intact housing. Yeah, they may not be as pretty as those in the Gateway Quarter, but they are maintained properties. Vinyl covered, perhaps, but not burned out or completely gutted. What are they doing different than Cincinnati? What are other cities doing different than Cincinnati? That's the key, not comparing building stocks, size or girth. We aren't comparing penis sizes.

Jeffery had a great thread about restoration/preservation of working class neighborhoods in Louisville.

Good points Sherman, I say we try anything that will work. The big problem we have is we have tens of thousands of buildings that are probably vacant. This city proper went from 500,000 people  in 1930 to 330,000  today a loss of 170,000 people and we still have many of those buildings sitting empty.

 

People who already live in Cininnati are not going to own 2-3 houses. We MUST bring in new people from outside Cincinnati and instead of putting roadblocks in front of them like VBML,waivers, high permit fees and such we should be doing just the opposite.

 

We should using our CDBG fund (community DEVELOPMENT block grant) funds for facade grants ,or no interest loans to people buying vacant or foreclosed property. We should have building stabilization programs rather than a demolition programs. We need paint up/fix up programs for low income residents who need help with their properties. We should be cutting permit fees in half , or waiving them completly, for people buying vacant properties along with the tax abatement we currently do. We NEED a Land Bank.

 

Cincinnati Urban Neighborhoods are a patient in "critical care" and instead of throwing everything we can at it to make it get better, we Euthanize them by demolition.

 

We need to attract 50000 "preservation minded" people to Cincinnati this decade. I was able to convince a dozen or so to come to Cincinnati last year, in spite of the roadblocks.

 

We need a National Marketing Campaign to promote Cincinnati Historic Architecture opportunities AND we need the business community behind us (it benefits them) and the banks to provide financing WHICH they do in other cities.

 

We have to stop saying "please let us save historic buildings" to local Government and start saying 'We will save these historic buildings and if you won't help us, city govenment, then get out of our way!"

 

Otherwise by the end of the decade, Covington and Newport will be restored and the most exclusive place to live in the Metro area and Cincinnati will look like Detroit.

 

We need to attract 50000 "preservation minded" people to Cincinnati this decade. I was able to convince a dozen or so to come to Cincinnati last year, in spite of the roadblocks.

 

We need a National Marketing Campaign to promote Cincinnati Historic Architecture opportunities AND we need the business community behind us (it benefits them) and the banks to provide financing WHICH they do in other cities.

 

We have to stop saying "please let us save historic buildings" to local Government and start saying 'We will save these historic buildings and if you won't help us, city govenment, then get out of our way!"

 

Otherwise by the end of the decade, Covington and Newport will be restored and the most exclusive place to live in the Metro area and Cincinnati will look like Detroit.

 

:clap:

 

If people knew that OTR in Cincy was the largest, most intact urban historic district in the country, and was marketed with pictures of all the renovation/Gateway/park/school stuff that is here on UO, you'd go a long way to redefining and attracting people to Cincinnati.

So say we do preserve every historic structure in the city of Cincinnati.  Who's going to live in them? The city is either loosing population, or gaining at a minimal rate.  The Gateway Quarter is seeing lots of people wanting to move into OTR, but what makes people think that just because we save the properties, they'll actually see reuse in a city that is stagnant in population? People on here are talking about Price Hill, Walnut Hils, and Knox Hill? Ok, first of all I have never even heard of Knox Hill and I'm a life long resident of Cincy.  Second of all, people are fleeing Price Hill for the western suburbs probably at the fastest clip of anywhere in the city.  I'm all for preserving our structures, but I think there is a legitamate question of what to do with these structures if they are saved.

Good points edale and I think the sheer size of OTR is one of the initial obstacles.  How does Cincinnati attract a lot more risk takers?

Good points edale and I think the sheer size of OTR is one of the initial obstacles. How does Cincinnati attract a lot more risk takers?

OTR does not have a huge amount of single family homes (yes there are exceptions). When redeveloping a building into multiple units, you not only have to take into consideration the upfront financing of the project, or even finding willing buyers, it is the buyers ability to find the financing on the units. All of the developments down here have struggled with this. The Q has been sucessful in both % presold and coming up with some creative solutions, I just don't believe all projects would have a dedicated team to devote to this as the Q does.

 

Right now the Q is selling 1 every 11 days and that is with a sales team, marketing campaign, multiple developers and a few million dollars to work with. Yet places like Dandridge in Pendleton went bankrupt only blocks away. It isn't as simple as "build it and they will come". The approach that we are seeing south of liberty is working and even north of liberty is showing signs of life.

 

Anyone have a number of demos in OTR for 2009? Or better yet a list of addresses of demos for last year?

 

And then you can walk through Covington or Newport. Blocks and blocks of intact housing. Yeah, they may not be as pretty as those in the Gateway Quarter, but they are maintained properties. Vinyl covered, perhaps, but not burned out or completely gutted. What are they doing different than Cincinnati? What are other cities doing different than Cincinnati? That's the key, not comparing building stocks, size or girth. We aren't comparing penis sizes.

 

The point is that you're comparing Newport and Covington to Cincinnati when in reality the "blocks and blocks of intact housing" you mention don't come anywhere close to the amount of intact historic housing found in Cincinnati.  Clifton, East Walnut Hills, Prospect Hill, Northside, Columbia Tusculum, Mt. Adams, Mt. Lookout, Hyde Park, and Mariemont are all in very good shape.  This does not include the well preserved pockets of OTR, West Price Hill (Covedale area), Westwood (yes, pockets of Westwood are in great shape), and North Avondale.

 

Outside of the general downtown areas of Newport and Covington there isn't much to write home about in terms of preservation work.  Sure, both cities have done a terrific job at preserving their limited collections (as compared to Cincy), but it's like saying Lexington has less square footage of vacant office space than New York City and using it as evidence that Lexington is superior to NYC when it comes to office occupancy rates.

>OTR does not have a huge amount of single family homes (yes there are exceptions)

 

The West End has at least 100, maybe several hundred.  This is why I've often thought about suggesting that the streetcar be extended west from Findlay Market, but that could ironically be to OTR's detriment since potential condo buyers in OTR's big buildings might renovate a West End town home instead. 

Those tend to be very large single family homes especially around Dayton which present a financing problem on the front end of restoring homes that could be 5000 sqft plus, and trying to convince a bank to loan you for acquisition plus rehab may be impossible when it comes to finished appraisal value. You also stand a better chance of finding yourself on a development island in the West End vs Otr.

The Gateway Quarter is seeing lots of people wanting to move into OTR, but what makes people think that just because we save the properties, they'll actually see reuse in a city that is stagnant in population? People on here are talking about Price Hill, Walnut Hils, and Knox Hill? Ok, first of all I have never even heard of Knox Hill and I'm a life long resident of Cincy. 

 

Knox Hill was a German enclave that sat on a hill netween North and South Fairmount, something no one apparently thought to look into when you have some 6-9000 square ft mansions and a bunch of high end cottages, By teh way the city city wrote off as a slum neighborhood 10-15 years ago. The history:

 

http://sites.google.com/site/knoxhillneighborhoodassoc/

 

The Schuetzen Verin, bought from the baptist seminary built in 1950 which sat where Christian Park Overlook is now. It was the most exclusive German Beer Garden and shooting club in the city. The wealthy German community Built their weekend cottages there. It reamained a German enclave well into the 1940's. The Hauck family donated the land after the club burned in 1880's to the city and Christian park was originally called Schuetzebuckle Park until the anti german sentiment hit.

 

Amazing what peopl dont know aout the city they grew up in!

 

Admittedly, it took me a long time to figure out where Knox Hill was myself! The city has all but written it off, and several other now mostly vacant neighborhoods.

Well I mentioned how I wrote an email to Callinan applauding his article on OTR, with no intentions of having it published, but turns out it was.  I'm in Dayton, but I hear it was in the printed edition too, which is cool.  Anyhow, here's a link.  Hope everyone feels the same about what I wrote, let me know what you think.

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2010/01/18/positive-talk-can-end-city-suburb-feud/

Those tend to be very large single family homes especially around Dayton which present a financing problem on the front end of restoring homes that could be 5000 sqft plus, and trying to convince a bank to loan you for acquisition plus rehab may be impossible when it comes to finished appraisal value. You also stand a better chance of finding yourself on a development island in the West End vs Otr.

 

Really? I am working with a client right now who just bought a house over there and they have a 750K restoration budget. Two properties over there have had 500K Plus restorations in the last year and there are two well fiunded museum houses and a couple from the east coast who are restoring and planning a luxury B&B.

 

Dayton Street wasn't called "Millionairs Row" for no reason. In 5 years Dayton Street will probably be the most expensive housing in the downtown. There is a pending at 100K right now for fixer, and two houses I know of sold privately over 250K last year. Almost all the section 8 is gone. There is a very active crime watch and a couple of neighborhood group over there. There is one left at 117K  in the MLS that will probably be converted to single family when its sold.

 

There are still some bargains over there but if you have decent credit  and a good downpayment there are  comps to draw off of to get a working

appraisal.

 

But then most of the people that seem to be buying over there are executives who work downtown and don't have financing issues.

 

That area is probably turning around faster than anyone realizes

Just looked at streetview of Dayton St on Google Maps and I can definitely envision what a little rehab could do for it.  Will be gorgeous

Really? I am working with a client right now who just bought a house over there and they have a 750K restoration budget

Yes, Really. How much did they have to put down? Now how many people on here or anywhere do you think are going to be able to come up with the dollar amounts necessary outside of the the 203K to pull that off?

 

but if you have decent credit and a good downpayment there are comps to draw off of to get a working

appraisal.

Which comps did they use exactly to pull 750,000. I will pull the MLS and see what is out there.

 

So they are putting a b&b next to CityLink? Huh! That takes some guts and I hope they can do it.   When do they plan on opening it and where can I find some info on the people doing it?

  Listing # Area SIC Address List/Sell $

 

1152049   E01 CI 424 Dayton St $4,000 Sold Duplex

1202270   E01 CI 811 Dayton St $13,400 Active

1199453   E01 CI 461 Dayton St $14,900 Pending

1146296   E01 CI 1017 Dayton St $20,236 Sold 5+unit

1199364   E01 CI 1025 Dayton St $65,000 Active

1191668   E01 CI 1105-1107 Dayton St $98,500 Active

1198859   E01 CI 824 Dayton St $99,000 Pending 5+unit

 

 

This is within the past year up to today. Which one are they dumping 750,000 into and what did they use as a comp?

 

 

 

 

Which one are they dumping 750,000 into and what did they use as a comp?

 

Believe it or not, Michael not everyone investing in the downtown 'needs' financing. Stop trying to be the "Downtown/OTR expert" and throw your energies into making it a better place! Many homes sell on Dayton Street without even needing to go to a realtor.

 

In a way, because of private sales, that is a problem for getting comps for some people, but the fact people are willing to take the financial risk to invest 250-750K of their own money in properties is a VERY good thing for all of us.

 

You might want to walk the 8-900 block of Dayton and see what is actually going on. You really can walk around, no gangbangers, rapists or thugs to harrass you. I gave a couple of tours over the summer to out of town preservationists and nobody carried guns or mace . We stoped and talked to residents out working in their yards and our cars were still where we parked them when  we got back from our tour.

 

FYI: To people on the east or west coast who live in multi million dollar townhomes down the street from a meth clinics, Citylink (if it EVER really gets off the ground) is more of "minor annoyance" to anyone who has lived in a major city and, at best, a short term "distraction", because in 10 years their clients will all be out in the townships.

Stop trying to be the "Downtown/OTR expert" and throw your energies into making it a better place!

You might want to check into who you are talking to.