Did anyone else make it to the tour of the Terrace Plaza Saturday? Looks like the new owners are serious about finding a way to make it work again and are open to most ideas (not limited to hotel/condos combos). They are also really hoping to make it like the original intended International Style/Modernist design with the hopes that the history would be a draw to it's rebirth. Not as bad as i thought the inside would be but the last NY owner took anything that wasnt nailed down as well as ignoring repairs. They also did quite a bit of damage to the hotel roof when they took the brick off the cooling tower too. Financially they are now free of any back takes and other issues so they are turning towards catching up on maintenance. Took LOTS of photos, but here are a few.

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FYI - first time uploading this way. Any of you know what i did wrong above? At least the links are there though. It was a good tour and it seems there will be more in the future. I found out about this once from the Cincinnati Preservation Collective.

 

I was on the tour, it was cool to finally see the interior of this hotel. Boy oh boy does it need a lot of work, but I still have high hopes for this property.

FYI - first time uploading this way. Any of you know what i did wrong above? At least the links are there though. It was a good tour and it seems there will be more in the future. I found out about this once from the Cincinnati Preservation Collective.

 

 

On Flickr, click the Share icon at the bottom of the photo, then select BBCode, copy that code and paste it into your post. Then repeat for each photo.

Thanks, I''l try when I get a moment.

 

In the hotel portion the rooms are quite small, but the 8' ceilings did not bother me at all with such an expansive view. If the footprints were opened up a bit even the upper floors I could see being apartments/condos. Not everyone wants a cavernous loft space, they would just have to market it to those who appreciate the style.

 

^Do you mean "small" for a hotel room? Or "small" for an apartment?

 

CF3 posted a few photos from the tour: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1762334680445991&id=116290788383730

I'd describe them as "small for a hotel room". Much smaller than your typical new-build 1-bedroom apartment. If you wanted to install kitchens, you'd probably need to combine two units.

Small for an apartment/condo for sure. Pretty small for a hotel room, but nothing outrageously small. It's a single room with a small bathroom attached. Could never be made into apartments/condos without knocking down walls.

Boutique hotels tend to have some very small rooms - I don't think the Terrace Plaza rooms are any smaller than rooms at 21C, for example. In bigger cities I've stayed in hotels with much smaller rooms. A mid-century modern themed boutique hotel could probably work well here since the bones are all already actual mid-century modern. A low ceiling works well with that aesthetic.

I talked with a contractor who walked through recently, and the real problem with the 8' ceilings is that's only available where there's no utilities, basically concrete to concrete.  Over the room entrances, bathrooms, and hallways where you have pipes and ductwork (more of which will be required for all new mechanicals, since what's there is shot) that means you're pushing down to the 7' level which starts to get quite oppressive.

I talked with a contractor who walked through recently, and the real problem with the 8' ceilings is that's only available where there's no utilities, basically concrete to concrete.  Over the room entrances, bathrooms, and hallways where you have pipes and ductwork (more of which will be required for all new mechanicals, since what's there is shot) that means you're pushing down to the 7' level which starts to get quite oppressive.

If existing mechanicals are shot, they should be ripped out and that space should be used for the new mechanicals. Anybody have photos of the hotel rooms and hallways? If the old ducts were too small, it might require some creative rework... but you definitely want to minimize encroaching on the 8' ceiling heights.

 

The halls were the lowest "feeling" part of the Hotel portion and you can see the metal track where the later added (and now removed) drop ceiling was at about 8" above the door transom. That fiberboard panel covered the front of the original fluorescent indirect lamp that also included an illuminated room number. I guess it got covered in a previous remodel but it is still there. If removed it would also raise the door area up to the level of the lowered ceiling.

SleepyLeroy[/member] thanks for that photo of the hallway... do you have a photo of the illuminated room number that you said is still there?

 

21c renovated  a mid-century bank into "The Durham" hotel in Durham, NC which turned out awesome: https://thedurham.com/

 

Across the street is an old mid-century motel that was recently renovated as well, dialing the nostalgia up to 11: http://www.unscriptedhotels.com/

 

There's enough demand for mid-century modern that it seems like a no-brainer to renovate the top of the Terrace Plaza into a mid-century modern boutique hotel. (I'm not sure what would be the best use for the lower levels).

 

Looking at the mechanicals in that photo, it seems pretty manageable. There's electric for lighting and smoke detectors and there's a sprinkler system. There don't seem to be any ducts through the hallway. I definitely wouldn't want them to put the drop ceiling back up. It'd be better to leave the sprinkler system exposed (which is quite common in historic rehabs). Not sure where they currently run ducts for heating/cooling, but many hotels give each room their own system (so each room's temperature can be managed independently). Those systems are usually quite small and fit into the wall with the bathroom in each room, so you wouldn't need to sacrifice any ceiling height in the rooms either.

^^^ No sadly the Room numbers are well hidden and i didnt want to get escorted out by pulling the fiberboard off. I sure was tempted though. They had some drawings there and one showed a section view but nothing head on. Maybe another floor has them exposed but not the case up on the floor we were allowed to tour. They did say that SOM if REALLY excited about the new interest and gave them all the original drawing and even want to volunteer in what ever way they can if it can be restored. In another cool bit i was told that they are pretty sure the original front overhand and TERRACE PLAZA sign still exist under that awful tacked up awning at the entrance. 

^That's awesome that SOM is involved and wants to help.

 

That original awning looks great in the photo, though I would guess the concrete has deteriorated (due to rusting structural rebar) over the years and would probably need to be entirely rebuilt to look clean like that photo. 

If anyone is interested, I posted a bunch of images from the tour I went on this weekend here.

^thanks so much ryanlammi[/member]!

My takeaway from the evening walk tonight: Sixth Street would easily be the CBD’s best, most vibrant street if the Terrace Plaza came back to life. This project should be downtown’s number one priority.

 

(Especially off they dropped the solid brick facade like in Birkla’s rendering)

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/08/04/developer-unveils-bold-plan-for-deteriorating.html

^On a few of my fantasy transit maps, the Terrace Plaza is demolished in order to open a work site for a central subway station station with 400-foot platforms in line with Sixth St. 

These photo comparisons (before and today) from Phil Armstrong are just amazing: http://www.philarmstrongart.com/blog/2017/11/15/ezra-stoller-recreations

jmecklenborg[/member] care to share those fantasy maps? What program do you use?

jmecklenborg[/member] care to share those fantasy maps? What program do you use?

 

I just drew them on Illustrator and used Google Earth to measure.  The big expense with bored rapid transit systems isn't the tunnel, it's the station, and the cost to construct those stations goes through the roof when there isn't adequate space to stage equipment and materials.  That's part of the reason why subway construction is so expensive in Manhattan but they're building tunnel sections of LA's light rail system under Crenshaw Ave. for relatively cheap. 

 

There are tons of parking lots in Cincinnati's downtown, but Cincinnati's downtown is so small that one central station would really cover the whole thing.  The center of town is actually very dense...Fifth between Vine and Main would be ideal for a station oriented east/west, except that would require removal and reconstruction of the Fountain Square garage because the garage physically occupies the space under Fifth St. and abuts the foundation of the Westin Hotel.  It would also require closing Fountain Square as a civic space for 3-5 years. 

 

 

 

 

A crucial step for $61 million redevelopment of Terrace Plaza

 

 

The developer planning a bold redevelopment of the former Terrace Plaza Hotel is set to take a crucial step this week.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/07/18/exclusive-a-crucial-step-for-61-million.html

^Wow, that would be incredible.

Not a ton more info, but the petition is on page 25 of the July 20 planning commission packet: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/jul-20-2018-packet/

 

^Wow, that would be incredible.

 

I don't see Batsake's in that rendering.  They moved to the Terrace around 2002 to make way for the CAC.  Their location at 6th & Walnut was a great building and a great motley collection of narrow prewar buildings. 

Preservationists hope to change plans for former Terrace Plaza Hotel

 

Cincinnati preservationists hope to convince a developer considering a major redevelopment of the deteriorating Modernist hotel building to scrap plans to remove seven floors of brick façade and preserve at least some of it.

 

The Cincinnati Planning Commission unanimously approved an initial step in the former hotel’s potential $61 million redevelopment. It allowed the 20-story property at 15 W. Sixth St. to be conveyed from the current owner to the city and then to Indianapolis-developer Anderson Birkla Investment Partners LLC, which plans to turn the 600,000-square-foot structure into a mixed-use structure with retail, restaurants, residential, parking and possibly a hotel. The conveyance move will allow a tax-increment financing district to be created at the site, allowing property taxes that would be paid to go back into public infrastructure at the site.

 

Redevelopment of the Terrace Plaza would revive an entire city block blighted by the shuttered hotel, which is vacant, with the exception of a few street-level retailers, including the legendary Batsakes hat shop.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/07/20/preservationists-hope-to-change-plans-for-former.html

Yeah that's a totally ridiculous request.

Yeah that's a totally ridiculous request.

 

I'm all for historic preservation but this block will never be a place people want to be as long as there's a huge brick wall dominating the street. Redeveloping this with windows would be a huge benefit for this part of downtown.

Yeah, as an architect and someone who values preservation, I have no qualms with opening up the base of this. Will it drastically alter the historic character of the building? Yes, but it's a necessity. There are so few uses that can occupy that much space without windows. It just isn't realistic.

 

Additionally, the historic qualities of the building sit squarely against conventional thinking about what makes a city work. It came from an era where people thought disconnecting from the street was the future. We quickly learned, "whoops, that was a mistake" and this building can't properly integrate as it currently stands.

 

As long as the terrace above the base, the tower, and the top level lounge/restaurant are retained and historically preserved, I think it's a win that will bring the building back to life.

Are the ceiling heights low in the windowless section?

 

 

Do you guys think there is a middle ground? I don't mind the brick pedestal, however, in earlier photos, it looks like the brick ended higher off the street than it does now. Along Vine you can see a weird lip about 40ft up from street level (link below). What about removing the brick up to there and keeping the rest? Idk, I'm no architect, but I always thought the brick wall added character to the building.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/572+Vine+St,+Cincinnati,+OH+45202/@39.1021466,-84.513206,3a,49.3y,305.7h,109.66t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sF9_za0QmH_nGDkX3f4ViCg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fmaps%2Fphotothumb%2Ffd%2Fv1%3Fbpb%3DChAKDnNlYXJjaC5UQUNUSUxFEmYKOAkDTsbBULFBiBF-gguAb6ppcRokCxDThbhCGhsSGQoUChIJA07GwVCxQYgR_rENcqsA4RsQvAQMEgoN_IJOFxWOTqDNGhIJG_lweg6zQYgRePLW-jhTv-sqCg38gk4XFY5OoM0aBAhWEFY%26gl%3DUS!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b150c1c64e03:0x7169aa6f800b827e!8m2!3d39.1021308!4d-84.5132146

Do you guys think there is a middle ground? I don't mind the brick pedestal, however, in earlier photos, it looks like the brick ended higher off the street than it does now. Along Vine you can see a weird lip about 40ft up from street level (link below). What about removing the brick up to there and keeping the rest? Idk, I'm no architect, but I always thought the brick wall added character to the building.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/572+Vine+St,+Cincinnati,+OH+45202/@39.1021466,-84.513206,3a,49.3y,305.7h,109.66t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sF9_za0QmH_nGDkX3f4ViCg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fmaps%2Fphotothumb%2Ffd%2Fv1%3Fbpb%3DChAKDnNlYXJjaC5UQUNUSUxFEmYKOAkDTsbBULFBiBF-gguAb6ppcRokCxDThbhCGhsSGQoUChIJA07GwVCxQYgR_rENcqsA4RsQvAQMEgoN_IJOFxWOTqDNGhIJG_lweg6zQYgRePLW-jhTv-sqCg38gk4XFY5OoM0aBAhWEFY%26gl%3DUS!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b150c1c64e03:0x7169aa6f800b827e!8m2!3d39.1021308!4d-84.5132146

 

Yep originally the end addressed the street much better, but was filled in at some point during a remodel of the dept store area. The original lower hotel lobby was also better oriented for pedestrians but this was also later removed to make it a vehicle entry as was the style of the day. http://www.oxomag.com/terrace-plaza-hotel-cincinnati/biographical-dictionary-of-cincinnati-architects-1788-1940.html

I'm a bit torn on this one. On the one hand, the windowless mass is kind of the whole point of this building, and it is widely regarded as a modernist masterpiece. On the other hand, the base of the building is basically unusable in its current form, and the building has sat vacant for years, at great cost to downtown. Unless and innovative solution can be found, I favor altering the building if it means reactivating the site. I do wonder about the plausibility of converting the base to parking, as that seems to be in perpetual need, and there is no need for daylight in a garage.

 

I also wonder about the viability of Anderson Birkla to complete this project. They were the development team in charge of converting the 580 building to apartments, and that has been the slowest moving project ever. Seeing how the Terrace Plaza is a much more complicated project, do these guys really have the chops?

If opening up the base can't be avoided, fine, but the trendy early 2010s kajiggering of the windows is a bridge too far if you ask me.  Maintain the original massing, it can just as easily be a monolithic glass curtain wall to play up its history as a monolithic brick wall, while showing off the internal structure of the building.  That would be much more respectful of the history while still being overtly contemporary and "of its time."

 

It's also possible to take cues from the old windows that used to be on the 2nd floor and give it something of a retro Bauhaus/Miesian feel.  That could be a bit more confusing as it's a reinterpretation of the design that could present as original fabric, but it would also be more fitting.  Regardless, is it really necessary to remove 100% of the brick anyway?  This is such a clumsy move that it not only destroys any historic reading of the building, but it doesn't even make sense in isolation.  The base itself tries to be the focal point of the design, rather than a literal platform for the (relatively speaking) bejeweled hotel above.  Imagine Frank Gehry designing a new base for the Statue of Liberty that looks like the Bilbao Guggenheim.  That's what this feels like to me.  The rainbow parking garage across Vine Street would make a better base than this. 

About the only use for a windowless space is a museum.  Look a block away to that nearly windowless bunker known as the CAC.  But all art museums have high ceilings, and so the Terrace does not appear to be useful for that purpose, aside from that giganticness of the borg cube. 

Or the back of 525 Vine, which for some odd reason is a windowless wall for about 15 or more stories.

Yeah that's a totally ridiculous request.

 

As a request, I find it appropriate for preservationists. The building is incredibly significant historically.

 

If it evolved from a request to something legal or otherwise that was creating real roadblocks for the development, one could argue that it may be time for preservationists to give it up.

 

This building is a real challenge and there may very well have to be big trade-offs from a preservation perspective, but starting the conversation off with a request for preservation is not totally ridiculous.

There's nothing historic about a giant brick wall.  It kills the street level activity on an entire city block.  No one is every going to move into that space if the builder isn't permitted to punch out windows. 

Preservationists drive me wild at times.

 

There are some legitimate claims for preservation, such as the Dennison Hotel. But other times, preservationists fight battles that are simply not worth fighting for (like the davis furniture building). I've always had the perspective that aesthetic significance should play a role into preservation.

 

When the Terrace Plaza Hotel opened up its design was, "edgy" and, "cool". Now the building looks cold, brutal and harsh on the eyes. It's attractive as the cincinnati library building, which I think is ugly as well. Nothing stops a pedestrian on the street, and makes them look at the Terrace Hotel and go, "wow, what a forward thinking design."

 

 

There's nothing historic about a giant brick wall. 

 

That's a dumb take. The brick facade of the lower portion of the building is an important characteristic of its modernist design. Now, you can say that the needs of modern users are incompatible with the original design, and therefore, some sort of compromise will have to be made between preservationists and those looking to see the building reactivated.

Up until recently, a "historic" building was one that generally could not be rebuilt today.  Load bearing brick, interior wood from extinct trees, lots of hand-carved stone and woodwork, stained glass, etc. 

 

Could we rebuild a giant blank not load-bearing brick wall today?  Yeah, we do it all the time:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.290898,-84.3030285,3a,53.4y,168.05h,96.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-B8KBvfim9566TTA4X9A7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I've always had the perspective that aesthetic significance should play a role into preservation.

 

The preservation movement came about specifically because of the subjective nature of aesthetics.  "It's old and ugly, let's tear it down" has no bearing on a building's importance, especially because what's deemed ugly changes with time.  Victorian buildings were at their most hated some 70 years after their construction, when the preservation movement started in the 1960s.  Buildings like Terrace Plaza are in that exact same position today.  I think the difference is that buildings before the automobile era were generally not also failures at urbanism, regardless of opinions about their design aesthetic.

Up until recently, a "historic" building was one that generally could not be rebuilt today.  Load bearing brick, interior wood from extinct trees, lots of hand-carved stone and woodwork, stained glass, etc. 

 

Could we rebuild a giant blank not load-bearing brick wall today?  Yeah, we do it all the time:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.290898,-84.3030285,3a,53.4y,168.05h,96.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-B8KBvfim9566TTA4X9A7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Not sure about that. We can still build Beaux Arts buildings and the like, but it's just very expensive to do so. Many of the cities in Europe essentially built exact replicas of old streetscapes that were destroyed in WWII.

 

I think buildings like the Terrace Plaza are more significant for being exemplary of a particular style or a pioneer of a style, rather than their aesthetic value or special materials or design that would make it impossible to construct today. It's the history of the building, and the way that it reflects early modernism that's important here.

 

Outside of challenging retrofits, modernism has pretty squarely moved into desirable territory for many Americans. Be in Mad Men's influence, or simply just becoming old enough to become cool again, it seems the general public loves Mid Century Modern design and architecture. The next big preservation debate in this country is going to come from brutalism and post modernism. With styles that hold less obvious aesthetic value, it's a harder sell to preserve something just because it's a fine representation of a past style.

turn it into a twenty story parking garage, then plaster the brick "wailing wall" with neon signs from the sign museum. Throw in a "rat pack" style theatre lounge with bellhops and valets. You yourself a genuwine mid century modern art museum/parking garage/night club. Ayn Rand will crawl out of her grave and proclaim, "now that's what i'm talkin bout". 

My understanding is that it is technically possible to convert the base to parking (I think with a ramp addition to the south) but because of the column layout and narrowness of the building it would be a monstrously inefficient layout. 

Preservationists drive me wild at times.

 

There are some legitimate claims for preservation, such as the Dennison Hotel. But other times, preservationists fight battles that are simply not worth fighting for (like the davis furniture building). I've always had the perspective that aesthetic significance should play a role into preservation.

 

When the Terrace Plaza Hotel opened up its design was, "edgy" and, "cool". Now the building looks cold, brutal and harsh on the eyes. It's attractive as the cincinnati library building, which I think is ugly as well. Nothing stops a pedestrian on the street, and makes them look at the Terrace Hotel and go, "wow, what a forward thinking design."

 

 

 

During the “urban renewal” era of the 70s, old buildings were considered gross and everyone wanted to knock them down and replace them with brutalist structures. Thankfully that did not happen (for the most part) in OTR. Just remember that what is popular right now is not the same thing as whether a building is historically significant and will be considered important or historic to future generations.

Preservationists drive me wild at times.

 

There are some legitimate claims for preservation, such as the Dennison Hotel. But other times, preservationists fight battles that are simply not worth fighting for (like the davis furniture building). I've always had the perspective that aesthetic significance should play a role into preservation.

 

When the Terrace Plaza Hotel opened up its design was, "edgy" and, "cool". Now the building looks cold, brutal and harsh on the eyes. It's attractive as the cincinnati library building, which I think is ugly as well. Nothing stops a pedestrian on the street, and makes them look at the Terrace Hotel and go, "wow, what a forward thinking design."

 

 

 

During the “urban renewal” era of the 70s, old buildings were considered gross and everyone wanted to knock them down and replace them with brutalist structures. Thankfully that did not happen (for the most part) in OTR. Just remember that what is popular right now is not the same thing as whether a building is historically significant and will be considered important or historic to future generations.

 

      I agree with you, and I enjoy the terrace plaza, however this building needs to be saved and only a developer with deep pockets is going to save it. I am not a huge fan of Woolperts proposal for the bottom half of the building. I think it can be redesigned to give a better nod to the mid century era. The spaces pushing and pulling from the original building facade is too much, if the original geometry of the base was left in tack and you have glazing that mimics the stack pattern would be more appropriate.  Also need to point out that the way the stack pattern brick was installed you cant just remove portions of the brick, if you want to insert glazing/opening you have to take the brick out in whole columns of the podium from floors eight to two. Not a cheap or easy task.

      Preservationist are going to have to give a little to keep this building. The last owners really did a number on this building and I have heard from some developers they rather tear it town for the piece of property then try to salvage what is left of the building...

Yeah, there's definitely a WAY more sensitive way to open up the base to make it usable. Hopefully they make some adjustments to make it more in keeping with the era it was built.

 

I also take issue with the fact that it appears in the renderings that the brick is perhaps painted, covered up, etc. on the tower. Am I crazy? It looks extremely grey and not at all like the red brick. Might be a consequence of bad rendering technique, but it's worrying at the very least.

 

Edit: Also looks like they're increasing the height of the windows in the tower and making use of spandrel glass. No bueno.