Posted June 9, 200916 yr Some Westwood Leaders Consider Seceding From Cincinnati Last Update: 2:45 pm http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Some-Westwood-Leaders-Consider-Seceding-From/YDcrWsY-V0-Vdrv1NfH1_w.cspx Some people in the neighborhood of Westwood want to leave Cincinnati and become a city of their own. A meeting on the issue is set for 7:00 pm at Westwood Town Hall tonight. Click on link for more information. VIDEO http://www.local12.com/mediacenter/[email protected]
June 9, 200916 yr BAD idea. The government in this metro region is already balkanized to the point of being ridiculous. We have enough redundant municipal government already.... That said, this should serve as notice to City Hall that the residents of Westwood clearly aren't happy with the way things are going at this point. I think the kicker is the debt they'd have to take on. I'd imagine they aren't in any way prepared to handle that.
June 9, 200916 yr I agree that further balkanization would be negative for the region generally. However, could this not be a long-term positive for the city of Cincinnati? It's no secret that Westside neighborhoods like Price Hill and Westwood have been on a relative decline. What are the demographics of the neighborhood like right now? Does it generate more tax revenue than it spends? What about in 10 or 20 years? If market forces keep pushing the section 8 folks over in that direction, Cincinnati might actually benefit from a secession. Or is that too speculative or too far in the future?
June 9, 200916 yr That said, this should serve as notice to City Hall that the residents of Westwood clearly aren't happy with the way things are going at this point. I don't believe their is any other neighborhood in the city that feels as disconnected from City Hall as Westwood residents do. (The argument could be made for Price Hill as well though.) We will see if City Hall dismisses this as nothing like they seem to always do.
June 9, 200916 yr The large, super-neighborhood of Buckhead has considered this with Atlanta. While both Westwood and Buckhead are massive and include several sub-neighborhoods, the differences are great. Buckhead has TONS of commercial property including several malls, high-rise offices and several entertainment hubs. Buckhead is super wealthy. Small bungalows go for around $250-300k on the low end. The governor's mansion is located there in the area west of Peachtree with homes that go for millions and millions of dollars (ala Indian Hill). Buckhead has a clear center city and identity. Buckhead is financially sustainable. Buckhead is also easily accessible and prominently located along MARTA, I-85, GA 400 and quickly accessed from I-75 as it merges with I-85. In the end if a Westwood or Price Hill ever tried to secede they would fail miserably because they are primarily bedroom communities that lack any real commercial or industrial tax base. Since they are also not high-end residential communities the ability to sustain themselves financially would be non-existent. The reason they are able to get the services they get now is because of Downtown and Uptown Cincinnati.
June 9, 200916 yr In the end if a Westwood or Price Hill ever tried to secede they would fail miserably because they are primarily bedroom communities that lack any real commercial or industrial tax base. Since they are also not high-end residential communities the ability to sustain themselves financially would be non-existent. The reason they are able to get the services they get now is because of Downtown and Uptown Cincinnati. I disagree. What you're describing is literally every single independent municipality on the west side of Cincinnati, and most west siders would argue they get better municipal services than those that live in the city. My grandmother lives on a street that's half in Price Hill and half in Delhi. It's ridiculous how much nicer the street on the Delhi side is while the city's side is crumbling. That said, I still don't in any way, shape or form think this is a good idea for Westwood.
June 9, 200916 yr I'm assuming they would also need their own police and fire departments as well. I don't see how Westwood would be better off leaving the city.
June 9, 200916 yr I agree that further balkanization would be negative for the region generally. However, could this not be a long-term positive for the city of Cincinnati? It's no secret that Westside neighborhoods like Price Hill and Westwood have been on a relative decline. What are the demographics of the neighborhood like right now? Does it generate more tax revenue than it spends? What about in 10 or 20 years? If market forces keep pushing the section 8 folks over in that direction, Cincinnati might actually benefit from a secession. Or is that too speculative or too far in the future? While I agree with most of you on balkanization issue, I disagree with the Sec 8 issue being why the city would want to let Westwood go. Sure the concentration damage of the past decades is what it is, but I assure you that the majority of the 30k + residents are indeed adding to city coffers through taxes. The areas of trouble and deep decline have taken place in the Harrison Ave Corridor near the McHenry intersection. 70-80% of the neighborhood is still holding strong in my opinion, yet folks who don't get over here much take what they see on the news and associate it with the entire area. That almighty negative Cincy perception. The residents are very vocal over here and many are very dedicated to making sure Westwood doesn't go the path of an East Price Hill.
June 9, 200916 yr I'm assuming they would also need their own police and fire departments as well. I don't see how Westwood would be better off leaving the city. When I worked in the Western Hills Plaza, from 1996 - 2006, I can honestly say I was ashamed of the city police responce times for this area. District 3 is huge. 15-20 minutes was/is the norm. I can't tell you how many people I have seen over the years take matters into their own hands and restrain criminals til Cheviot, Ham Cty, or Green Township police show up.
June 9, 200916 yr My grandmother lives on a street that's half in Price Hill and half in Delhi. It's ridiculous how much nicer the street on the Delhi side is while the city's side is crumbling. I'm not familiar with all the demographics, but is Delhi the best financial analog to Westwood, or would St Bernard and/or Norwood be a better fit? In my limited experience, St Bernard and Norwood tend to have much worse streets than Cincy, and they might be better representative of what Westwood could face.
June 9, 200916 yr My grandmother lives on a street that's half in Price Hill and half in Delhi. It's ridiculous how much nicer the street on the Delhi side is while the city's side is crumbling. I'm not familiar with all the demographics, but is Delhi the best financial analog to Westwood, or would St Bernard and/or Norwood be a better fit? In my limited experience, St Bernard and Norwood tend to have much worse streets than Cincy, and they might be better representative of what Westwood could face. I would say the demographics are comparable, roughly. I also think Cincinnati is selective in the overall level services provided to different neighborhoods, ie Hyde Park gets newer streets before the little corner of Price Hill my grandmother lives in. The westsiders who actually live in the city of Cincinnati have been complaining about this for years, and even though Westwood seems to be on a slide of sorts, it is still a valuable neighborhood. Losing it would not be addition by subtraction.
June 9, 200916 yr I agree that Cincinnati does not want to lose Westwood, Price Hill or any neighborhood by that matter. So while it would be a loss to Cincinnati, it would also be a major loss for Westwood.
June 9, 200916 yr Personally I think Cincinnati should just annex Delhi Township, the remnants of Columbia Township and anything else we feel like including Norwood and Springfield Township. :)
June 9, 200916 yr I'm not familiar with all the demographics, but is Delhi the best financial analog to Westwood, or would St Bernard and/or Norwood be a better fit? In my limited experience, St Bernard and Norwood tend to have much worse streets than Cincy, and they might be better representative of what Westwood could face. There are a slew of these small communities that have been teetering for years. Becoming a part of Cincinnati is actually what could be most beneficial for them, unfortunately Westwood hasn't looked to these other experiences for their own lessons.
June 9, 200916 yr or Elmwood place, which at this next census will almost certainly mark it's tenth consecutive census where ti lost population.
June 9, 200916 yr In the end if a Westwood or Price Hill ever tried to secede they would fail miserably because they are primarily bedroom communities that lack any real commercial or industrial tax base. Since they are also not high-end residential communities the ability to sustain themselves financially would be non-existent. The reason they are able to get the services they get now is because of Downtown and Uptown Cincinnati. I disagree. What you're describing is literally every single independent municipality on the west side of Cincinnati, and most west siders would argue they get better municipal services than those that live in the city. Virtually every westside community is unincorporated and has suckled off of the teet of Hamilton County for many, many years. It was recently discovered that Hamilton County was providing free (yes free) police service to some of these areas. Given that public safety makes up the bulk of the expense for local municipalities, it is no wonder why they have been able to avoid the problems of other areas. Green Township and Delhi Township also have more pockets of affluent neighborhoods. Green Township also boasts more commercial properties and better access to interstates than the rest of the westside. If any westside neighborhood were well suited to become their own city it would be Green Township.
June 9, 200916 yr ^Good points! No news on here about this yet, but just a reference for anyone interested. I was pretty surprised at all the info on it. http://www.westwoodcivic.org/
June 9, 200916 yr In the end if a Westwood or Price Hill ever tried to secede they would fail miserably because they are primarily bedroom communities that lack any real commercial or industrial tax base. Since they are also not high-end residential communities the ability to sustain themselves financially would be non-existent. The reason they are able to get the services they get now is because of Downtown and Uptown Cincinnati. I disagree. What you're describing is literally every single independent municipality on the west side of Cincinnati, and most west siders would argue they get better municipal services than those that live in the city. Virtually every westside community is unincorporated and has suckled off of the teet of Hamilton County for many, many years. It was recently discovered that Hamilton County was providing free (yes free) police service to some of these areas. Given that public safety makes up the bulk of the expense for local municipalities, it is no wonder why they have been able to avoid the problems of other areas. Green Township and Delhi Township also have more pockets of affluent neighborhoods. Green Township also boasts more commercial properties and better access to interstates than the rest of the westside. If any westside neighborhood were well suited to become their own city it would be Green Township. I agree, but I'm sure if you took a poll the vast majority of west siders would prefer their current arrangement of quasi-independence while relying on the County for many essential services. Sounds to me like Westwood would prefer that setup as well.
June 10, 200916 yr Virtually every westside community is unincorporated and has suckled off of the teet of Hamilton County for many, many years. Huh? I think I pay more than enough for the services I receive. What an amazing comment.
June 10, 200916 yr Annexation into the City of Cincinnati A major change occurred in the village in 1896 when it was annexed into the City of Cincinnati. By then, the population was growing rapidly. That year also brought the end of passenger service from the Cincinnati & Westwood Railroad although it continued to carry freight until 1924. Transportation continued to be an issue that impacted Westwood. Electric streetcars, which were part of the reason for the failure of the railroad, were shuttling people back and forth to the city by 1900. At that time, just over 2000 people called Westwood home. In 1908, the opening of a viaduct over the Mill Creek improved the chances that one could cross the valley without risking life and limb. This viaduct was replaced with a new one in 1932. By then Westwood was a bustling suburb. In 1940, the population had expanded to about 11,000 with a steady increase after that. Much has changed in the 200 years since James Goudy built his log cabin. While walking down the tree lined streets today, one may find it difficult to envision the woods and meadows that greeted Mr. Goudy. Or the widely spaced farms and estates that followed. It you look carefully, you can still see remnants of old Westwood - old farmhouses amid newer homes, and berms from the old railroad, and grand old homes that have survived. Twenty-first century Westwood may look different but its location and green hills still appeal to the many people who call Westwood home. http://www.westwoodcivic.org/about.php
June 10, 200916 yr Transportation continued to be an issue that impacted Westwood. Electric streetcars, which were part of the reason for the failure of the railroad, were shuttling people back and forth to the city by 1900. Those damn streetcars, killing the railroads!!! ;)
June 20, 200915 yr So by coming independent they take tax dollars away as well as population and cinti therefore goes under 300,000. Could go back to ohio's 4th largest. It would then be Columbus, Cleveland, Toledo, Cincinnati and Akron as top 5.
June 20, 200915 yr Virtually every westside community is unincorporated and has suckled off of the teet of Hamilton County for many, many years. Huh? I think I pay more than enough for the services I receive. What an amazing comment. I believe randy was reffereing to the free police given to them by the sherif's deptarment.
June 20, 200915 yr "Virtually every westside community is unincorporated and has suckled off of the teet of Hamilton County for many, many years." Prove it. First of all, Delhi, Green, Colerain, Miami, Whitewater, Harrison, and Crosby Townships are unincorportated. Cheviot, North Bend, Cleves, Addyston, and the City of Harrison are incorporated municipalities. Westwood, Mt. Airy, Price Hill, and Saylor Park are neighborhoods within the City of Cincinnati. Do Colerain and Green Township get "free" police service from Hamilton County? Colerain and Green Township residents certainly pay a lot of Hamilton County taxes, and they also have a fairly low crime rate. If you imagine government as a pot of money, people contribute to that pot in taxes and receive benefits from that pot. Everyone seems to think that he pays more than his fair share.
June 21, 200915 yr First of all, Westwood is the largest neighborhood in the city. It continues to be a bastion of the middle class residents. It certainly has parts that have seen better days, but it still looks more attractive than most of Cheviot, Saylor Park, North Bend, Cleves, and Addyston. Mt. Airy has seemed to fall further than Westwood. Secession will happen about the same time Hamilton Cty. adopts a metro gov. Randy's point about free sheriffs patrols comes from the budget discussions of last fall - I can't find a link right off hand, but it was around mid-December. In addition to each individual having to carry the debt, the county sure as hell can't afford to start patrolling that area. Can they afford to start a brand new fire department as well. Would they secede from Cincinnati public schools as well? Would Oak Hills and Green and Delhi Township take them? Even complicating it further parts of Westwood are likely with the bounds of Millcreek township which complicates everything further.
July 19, 200915 yr I got a chuckle out of this. Thoughts on Westwood secession http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/C2/20090718/VAV02/907180315/ Let me get this straight. For Westwood to secede from the city of Cincinnati, as proposed by some concerned citizens, would require 17,500 signatures and the approval of Cincinnati City Council and Hamilton County officials. That is a hard sell. Click on link for more information.
July 23, 200915 yr Perhaps, gaining steam?? Westwood mulls seceding from city By Jane Prendergast • [email protected] • July 23, 2009 http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090723/NEWS01/907240307/Westwood+mulls+seceding+from+city Neighborhood activists in Westwood - the city's largest neighborhood, with 35,000 residents - are researching whether it's possible to secede from Cincinnati. Members of the Westwood Civic Association work hard for their neighborhood but don't feel they get enough response and help from the city, vice president Jim McNulty said this morning. Click on link for more information.
July 23, 200915 yr Can they afford to start a brand new fire department as well. Would they secede from Cincinnati public schools as well? Would Oak Hills and Green and Delhi Township take them? Even complicating it further parts of Westwood are likely with the bounds of Millcreek township which complicates everything further. There are too many obstacles in this day and age. The school system would be huge, and it would defeat the purpose of what i think they are trying to do if they stayed in the CPS. What would happen to all the fire houses and police stations and other things that are owned by the City? would Westwood have to buy them? As someone who doesn't live there but does live in the City i'd be a little pissed if my tax dollars went to pay for things that are now in another city.
July 23, 200915 yr As this movement gains momentum, I hope they produce a detailed fiscal analysis of how much it would cost to secede. Never mind whether they can get the votes, or whether the City and County will allow it. I just mean, how much it will cost them to take over bond payments on their roads, their school system, their police and fire buildings, etc. I think people will be shocked once someone actually bothers to run the numbers. Middle-class suburban residential districts are huge money losers. Westwood residents probably don't appreciate how much of their neighborhood's infrastructure is paid for by the taxes on commercial properties from downtown. Let's not ignore the elephant in the room either. As Section 8 people are getting cleared out of OTR and the West End, many of them moved further West. I'm sure that people in Westwood think that once they secede, they will be able to enact zoning laws that prevent more of "those people" from moving into their neighborhood. Maybe they could. Who knows? But unless Westwood can grow its own successful commercial district, I don't think they'll be able to afford to find out.
July 23, 200915 yr Cheviot is in CPS so that wouldn't actually be the hardest part (90% sure). It is actually the city owned land in Westwood plus the terms of annexation from a hundred years ago that would make it really hard. The other way to look at this is if Westwood busted out then you'd figure that the whole city would collapse back to it pre-annexation borders and then we'd have to move toward metro gov. to deal with the aftereffects.
July 23, 200915 yr Yes, a county wide government so we in the suburbs can build the kind of Cincinnati we want!!!! :)
July 23, 200915 yr Actually, that is exactly what I expect would be the result. Sadly, y'all would no longer live in the suburbs. It would all be city. Bwahahah.
July 23, 200915 yr And Cincinnati would then become America's 12th-largest city. Bigger than Charlotte, Denver, or Atlanta. (We'd remain the 24th largest metro area, though.) Sources: Largest cities Largest MSA's
July 23, 200915 yr Yes, a county wide government so we in the suburbs can build the kind of Cincinnati we want!!!! :) I know there is humor intended behind your post (and any inevitable responses by others) but a consolidated government would be great for Cincy. Consolidated governments aren't perfect. There are definitely some issues where a consolidated county government could inadvertently cause more flight into Bulter and Warren. However, on the whole, a merger would be fantastic for Cincinnati and Hamilton county.
July 23, 200915 yr Just to clear some of the fire and police issues up, Westwood has one firehouse that I'm aware of..and it sits less than a mile from Cheviots firehouse. That's it! Aside from any park land and the town hall which Cincy own. The police presence is the laughable matter in my opinion. Westwood, while housing the cities most populous neighborhood, relies on police services ran out of District 3 in Price Hill. (East Price Hill to be exact) The area under D3 is absolutely huge for only having one station and might I say pretty dense for 1st generation suburbs. What do other districts have in the way of stations? Does each district only have one?
July 24, 200915 yr I've been told that District 2 is the largest of the police districts in Cincinnati. Covering from Evanston down to California up to Roselawn and Kennedy Heights. Maybe Westwood has more population as a neighborhood, but i believe District 2 has more people than District 3.
July 24, 200915 yr ^That may be true. I don't know for sure. We can say 35k in Westwood and roughly 30-40k as a whole for Price Hill, Sayler Park, Fairmount, and Sedamsville. So 70-75k total at most??? (Picture and history of the 100 year old D3 headquarters) http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,17479.0.html
July 24, 200915 yr PRidge has been bounced between District 4 and District 2 a number of times over the years. Cops only come around when there is a peak in crime and then once it dies down they disappear and hang out at the station in Hyde Park. I imagine Westwood would have similar issues, though I have seen them a lot on Harrison cruising.
July 31, 200915 yr With so many reports these days of property owners seeking to de-annex from cities, I thought we should have a thread to track them. So far this has hit Middletown, Cincinnati, and now Carlisle (near Franklin, in Warren county)
July 31, 200915 yr Carlisle farm owner seeks appeal to detach from city http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-news/carlisle-farm-owner-seeks-appeal-to-detach-from-city-229409.html CARLISLE — A Carlisle couple is fighting in the courts to detach their farmland from the city in a case their lawyer said is unlike any in Ohio’s law books. Wallace and Helen Campbell for several years have been trying to detach their property on Lower Carlisle Road from Carlisle and join with Franklin Twp., said Helen Campbell. ... The Campbells and their lawyer, Rupert Ruppert of Franklin on Tuesday, July 28, filed an appeal with the 12th District Court of Appeals in Middletown. Click on link for article.
July 31, 200915 yr Those folks are either being disingenuous in their brief or being mislead by their lawyer. A conservation easement or equivalent mechanism would be much more effective in protecting their farm from development.
August 2, 200915 yr Yeah, gotta love that lawyer's name. Anyways, what an awful topic (apologies, Cinciyday, I just really hate the thought of DE-Annexation). It seems like a waste of time, effort, and resources to me. Of course, I also think that housing on lots that are .5 acre or under should ALWAYS be within city limits, as well, but another day, another arguement.
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