Arguably the most important and significant neighborhood in the Midwest, and one of the most important nation wide.  How do we save this neighborhood from further demolition and further loss?

 

Building by building, Over-the-Rhine’s history slipping away

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/06/15/story2.html

 

Over-the-Rhine is at a tipping point.

 

If just four more buildings are demolished, the neighborhood will have lost more than 50 percent of the structures it had as recently as 1930, preservationists told a Cincinnati City Council committee.

 

Already, too much of the neighborhood has been destroyed for it to be considered as a National Historic Landmark, a designation that could have paved the way for grant money, said Margo Warminski, preservation director at the Cincinnati Preservation Association.

 

I didnt know it was that far gone.  I guess this article is verification of sorts of the two OTR tracts falling into the "top ten most vacant neighborhoods".

 

 

 

OTR was fortunate to escape the scourge of "urban renewal" that was fashionable back in the 60's and 70's. It would be a tragedy for it to suffer that fate today, just as the neighborhood is beginning to turn itself around.

Alot of cities are lucky to have at least 30% left.  But I agree with the guy, something needs to be done.  The best neighborhoods are ones that have preserved their building stock in almost all its entirety.  When you have the majority of your building stock preserved, you have the ability to play around with some modern architecture in between unlike some cheaply done faux historical crap.  And even with some different stuff mixed in, the history is still very authentic.

I have said this numerous times OTR could be like Charleston SC or New Orleans a major historic tourism center. There are peopel who want to buy in OTR but you have to get some of these properties shook loose. That means filing liens for boardups and maintenance (cutting grass) and then going to court to force a sale. The city owns alot of OTR property and an urban Homestaed program to get Owner ocupants back in is essential. There is a need for single family restored brownstones . There will be a demand for large homes. You cant depend on condo to turn OTR around.

The Savannah, GA or Charleston, SC that people actually visit are no bigger than Over-the-Rhine.  I don't think people realize this much of the time.

I think Savannah's historic district is even quite a bit smaller.

 

I'm constantly telling people that OTR would be the next Savannah or Charleston if it becomes fully gentrified. It would, without exaggeration, become one of the biggest historical tourism destinations in the country. Despite the demolitions, the building stock is just too special.

 

But unfortunately, as we all know by now, it's a bigger issue than just preservation. Until all the non-profit/social service orgs are pushed out, OTR won't develop as a serious tourist destination.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Savannah's historic district is all about Southern gentility and a certain Romanticization of the Old South - the same though somewhat more diverse for Charleston, SC. What story would an OTR historic district try to tell to folks outside of Greater Cincinnati? Shoot we're having a discussion about keeping their descendants from seceding from the city, so I doubt a bunch of Germans will be heading down there. Appalachians will not likely remember their time in OTR especially fondly, nor African-Americans. I'm not saying it doesn't have potential to be a fantastic historic district, but figuring out the narrative and who would appreciate it is vital as well.

That's a larger problem for Cincinnati in general...what is our narrative?

>Where are all the hipsters and college grads to fix it up?

 

Rehabbing other historic neighborhoods with smaller buildings.  The OTR buildings tend to be too large for an average individual or couple to renovate on their own, often with more than 10 apartment units.  Instead of costing $50,000 to fix up, they cost more like $500,000, if not much more.   

^ that would be to fully rehab. it doesnt have to be that all at once. occupancy and gentrification are the first steps toward that. the typical building needs a creative/lax landlord that will let the hipsters and post college grads or whoever in to diy in some of the underoccupied buildings for awhile. just get more people in first.

Perhaps people are unaware, but Savannah used to be a total hellhole. Perhaps not on the level of OTR circa 2001, but certainly similar to OTR 2009. (It's actually rather heartwarming in the sense that it proves OTR is not nearly too far gone to preserve.)

 

Also, while Savannah and Charleston certainly draw from their old South "narrative" that's hardly the measure of their success. The vast majority of tourists have exactly zero personal connection to the history of either town. Nor were these towns a massive tourist destinations prior to their gentrification. At least not at today's level.

 

A good number of tourists simply want a gentrified "old town," and OTR has the potential to supply that like few other districts in the nation.

 

If anyone is hell-bent on a narrative, the Germans and especially the Beer is more than enough of one, in my opinion.

 

 

But I wonder if thinking about U.S. cities is not the best place for models. Plenty of European cities have had historic districts arise from formerly working class and poor neighborhoods w/out the romanticization of the Old South.

^

I couldn't agree more with C-Dawg. People always say it shouldnt become another yuppie area, but Cincinnati really doesnt have a yuppie area, maybe Mt. Adam's and some people agrue Mt. Lookout or Hyde Park but they areall really expensive and don't have really high concentrations of yuppies. We need a strong urbancore to compete nationally. I don't think we should be looking at competing against the Midwest, because lets face it the midwest is not the model of a healthy city. Why do people have such a problem with yuppies anyways. They pay tax, are usually well educated, and don't typically commit violent crimes. They are also most likely to live in urban areas because they don't have kids so they can easily live in a condo, and they want the nightlife and the vibrant feel of an urban area.

The famous historic area of Savannah is /slightly/ larger than Over-the-Rhine, and OTR is either the same size or slightly larger than the French Quarter, depending on what is counted.  If Over-the-Rhine was completely gentrified, along with the existing old part of the West End north of Liberty St. up to Brighton, then it could make a solid claim at being the largest historic district in a mid-sized American city.         

 

I think narrowing Liberty St. and neighborhood-wide streetscape improvements (buried utilities, sidewalks, brick streets) are sorely needed, and will cost upward of $100 million.  The current Vine St. streetscape revamp has been transformative, but sidewalks need to be widened and streets narrowed throughout. 

^ I also agree C-dawg.

 

Triple the population of yuppies and hipsters (if anything, it might need to be 4x or 5x) and the rest will take care of itself.

 

And just so I'm clear - I also absolutely agree that the focus on residents needs to come first. Far too many failed revitalizations begin with the mistake that you will create a vibrant retail/entertainment destination from scratch. In most cases, the residental population growth must come above all else.

^

Jake you are exactly right. The roads are way to wide for a neighborhood. They are uninviting and suburbanesque. I think that Liberty needs to be treated as a parkway like Central Parkway. With median planting islands, wider sidewalks, streetlamps, and add bikelanes into the mix. In my opinion Central Parkway and liberty shouldn't have on street parking. There is enough on the side streets.

I think we'd all love to triple the population, but I don't see any on-rushing cohort of yuppies beating down Cincinnati's door. I definitely agree that removing the residue of the Liberty Street Expressway would do wonders for OTR altogether. I also agree that it's future should be as a residential neighborhood first with locally oriented retail rather than an entertainment spot or a true historic area, though perhaps one of the streets could be branded as the 'most historic' and really amp up that spot by picking a particular moment in time to aim the renovations for and the like. The centers that make the most sense would seem to Old St. Mary's, the Music Hall/Washington Park, or potentially Findlay Market.

I think that Liberty St. could be narrowed back to its original width with no negative repercussions whatsoever.  The problem is that "Liberty" didn't exist between Sycamore and Reading and the way it does now until that project, and that's probably the only stretch of the street which gets a fair amount of traffic, and most of that is Christ Hospital employees who live in Anderson Twp and take I-471.

 

 

 

My biggest problem with Liberty isn't the street itself, it's the former (white castle?) turned Cricket, now vast empty parking lot, the similar building across the intersection, as well as some of the odd lot shapes that are created by the way Liberty cuts through the street grid.  There's great potential there, though; odd lot shapes have often led to some of the greatest urban designs.  With the City-Home project creeping up Pleasant St. I think this area will get some attention soon, and the long needed streetscape improvements in OTR can start to address Liberty.

I think that we all realize the potential that OTR has in becoming a potential heritage tourism draw, yuppies/hipsters haven and/or artist community, but it becomes more difficult to get there when we lose that historic fabric that is encouraging that to happen.

 

The current movement in OTR is to put residents and businesses first.  The redevelopment that is occuring is not at all focusing on tourism or creating some sort of entertainment district...it's creating an economically viable neighborhood once again.

 

What I'm fearful of is the continued loss of historic urban fabric there.  We can't rebuild that and we all see what the loss would be if that happened.  So how can we stop that from happening in a realistic way?  I know personally that policy-makers are looking for an answer to that very question.

 

How can we create a narrative that celebrates the historic importance of the neighborhood, while also celebrating the current residents and businesses that exist?  How do we continue to save the neighborhood from destruction while also maintaining its affordability (or can this be done)?  I think these are the serious questions we are going to have to answer very soon as the neighborhood continues its transformation.  Whether we come up with solutions and answers is another issue altogether.

 

    Preserving OTR is tough. If the yuppies come, they will want to bring their cars and OTR will tend toward sprwal. The conditions under which OTR was built will likely never happen again.

 

    A point that isn't mentioned much is the bypass effect. Often, when tranportation planners want to reduce congestion in a small town, they design a higway bypass to go around. Often, the unintended side effect is that the businesses move to the bypass.

 

    OTR along with downtown are bypassed by freeways on three sides. Imagine how much money drives within a mile of OTR every day! Once upon a time, the main routes all went through OTR or surrounding neighborhoods. All of that traffic is gone now.

 

    Sure, restaurants and art galleries are nice, but when I see grocery stores, hardware stores, banks, doctors and dentists' offices, hotels, schools, electronics stores, sporting goods stores, and lots and lots of employment, then I think OTR will be on the right track. Most of that action has moved to the suburban motorways because that is where the traffic is.

 

   

As a couple people have noted, the other challenge with OTR is the size of the buildings. These are big tenements not row houses or formerly single family homes subdivided.

Would a gentrified OTR be more like Boston's Backbay area?  (or is bayback, I can never remember?)

 

 

    Over-the-Rhine along with surrounding neighborhoods had a population of 150,000 as late as 1950. Today it has about 10% of that.

 

    The Cincinnati Metro has a population of about 1 million, depending on where you draw the boundary. About 1 of every hundred people in Cincinnati lives in Over-the-Rhine.

 

    To get close to 1950 population levels, we need 100,000 people, or one of ten, to move to Over-the-Rhine. It is hard to imagine this happening.

 

    If Over-the-Rhine is gentrified, it implies that people with money will be moving in. These people are not likely to live 5 people to a 300 square foot unit. These people are not likely to live car-free. These people are likely to live in large spaces and bring their cars.

 

    There will likely never be the demand for so many storefronts.

 

    So, while gentrification is the best chance of redeveloping Over-the-Rhine, the chances of preserving Over-the-Rhine are small.

 

   

 

   

A minor quibble, the population of Greater Cincinnati is now past 2 million not one million. A full OTR could probably support about the 50k that it had in the 60s.

^---- That's why I said depending on the boundaries. How much of the metro must you include to reach 2 million?

 

    A full OTR could support 50 k. No arguments there. That's not the issue. The issue is whether or not you can find 50 k to support OTR.

 

    Redevelop OTR? Yes!

    Preserve OTR? Too late.

 

    That's all I'm sayin'.

A minor quibble, the population of Greater Cincinnati is now past 2 million not one million. A full OTR could probably support about the 50k that it had in the 60s.

 

If you redevelop the properties into tenant housing, yes. That's not really desirable. I would peg a comfortable population range of only 15,000, given that many of the units are quite large and spacious and are designed (currently) for young professionals and families with no children.

 

  15,000 people may fill the residential buildings, but will not fill the storefronts. See what I'm getting at? The ratios of housing to storefronts in OTR from 1890 to 1950 will likely never be seen again.

 

    Look at the new buildings on the east side of Linn Street. Nearly all of the new storefronts are vacant.

 

    OTR is all about 2, 3, and 4 story buildings with storefronts. Roughly half of the buildings that existed in 1930 are still there. Preserving or rehabbing those buildings will require some use to be found for the storefronts as well as some use to be found for the residential portion.

 

    What is happening in Mt. Adams and other places is that the ground floor is used for parking and the upper floors for residential. While that may be better than vacant lots, it would change the character of OTR. So far, some of the new development in OTR includes parking garages.

 

    I'm not against parking garages necessarily, but I recognize that developing OTR with parking garages is going to change the character of OTR. Look at portions of Vine and Walnut around fountain square. The parking garage entrances are dreadful to pedestrians. Some newer garages are better, and the Park Haus at least incorporated storefronts, but too much of that kind of development is what I would call "redevelopment" of OTR, not "preserving" OTR.

 

   

 

   

There is a certain model of redevelopment that would work well in OTR and it is much like Brooklyn in New York that has large 3000-7500 square foot brownstones and that is as owner occupied with 1 or 2 apartments which subsidize the high cost of restoration. At one time I restored a 9000 square foot Louisville brownstone and used it as single family. There are people who would buy large homes in OTR. Mostly executive and managelment types or those with money and a love for an old house lifestyle. Ig you go to teh Old louisville hiustoric district on 2,3rd and 4th you would be surprised how many of those 5000 square foot homes are single family. I think "live/work units would be a very effective marketing tool to bring in artists and antique dealers. With so many peopl self employed and working from home OTR is viable.

 

I think OTR's story is of a Classic River town where a major neighborhood  with incredible architecture is still around. You use the German Heritage of the area, Microbrews and you combine that with the "Marketplace" atmosphere at Findlay Market. You throw in art galleries and antiques dealers, some high end restaurants and lots of streetlights and security in the early years. You take some of the larger "tenements' and you have  boutique hotel or two. You take currently vacant lots , put a wrought iron fence around them some nice landscaping and you create "neighborhood parking lots with cardkey access. You will need to get the parking on the street available for visitors.

 

You accept the fact that OTR will never be some "utopia" where homeless and the wealthy will peacefully co-exist and you work with the social services agencies to figure out just where these people will head and you try to get the services relocated.

 

You need a Marketing and PR team that can sell to city leaders and the public that historic tourism is a excellent development tool and the businesses it will attract will provide jobs in retail, service and hospitality industry that will provide badly needed jobs in that 10-20 hr range. That kind of data is out there and can be obtained through the National Trust Main Street Program as well as other cities redevelopment arms.

 

It can be done, it just takes a collaberation of people to do it.

 

 

That's why I said depending on the boundaries. How much of the metro must you include to reach 2 million?

 

The defined Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) by the Census.

Just to finish, Hamilton Cty is roughly 850k. NKY is probably 200k or less. Butler Cty is probably at a 500k at this point. Warren and Clermont is probably another 100k or so between them and the rest is outlying counties.

Butler Cty is probably at a 500k at this point.

 

Butler probably is more like 350k on the high side, they were 332,800 in 2000.

Butler Cty is probably at a 500k at this point.

 

Butler probably is more like 350k on the high side, they were 332,800 in 2000.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cincinnati#Statistical_information

Over-the-Rhine advocates present plan, put ball in Cincinnati City Council’s court

Councilwoman Qualls to study list of recommendations

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/06/29/story16.html

 

Preservation advocates recommended a series of steps they say Cincinnati City Council could take to save the historic fabric of Over-the-Rhine, the neighborhood north of downtown which has seen nearly half its historic building stock demolished since 1930.

 

Group targets blight in northern OTR

By Lisa Bernard-Kuhn | Cincinnati Enquirer, October 15, 2009

 

Along many of Over-the-Rhine's streets, it's easier to find an empty building than it is to find one that people call home.  By Michael Morgan's last count, more than 500 vacant buildings are scattered across the neighborhood and countless more are in need in of extensive work.

 

As the head of the non-profit Over-the-Rhine Foundation, Morgan has worked for years alongside community advocates to reverse the decay of the neighborhood's historic housing stock.  Now he's promoting a plan that, if successful, would put his agency at the helm of a program aimed at targeting the neighborhood's most problematic, vacant structures.

 

Read full article here:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20091015/BIZ01/910150343/1055/NEWS/Group+targets+blight+in+northern+OTR

^Awesome.  Another large scale effort to supplement what 3CDC is doing would be excellent.  Especially in an area that isn't currently on 3cdc's radar.  I hope this can get some funding.

Cincinnati takes critical step towards preserving historic Over-the-Rhine

http://www.urbancincy.com/2009/10/cincinnati-takes-critical-step-towards.html

By Randy A. Simes | UrbanCincy, October 30, 2009

 

The City of Cincinnati has been facing increasing pressure in regards to its policy on historic preservation, and now intends to create a special task force related to the economic development and historic preservation of one of the nation's most important historic districts: Over-the-Rhine.

 

The vote is music to the ears of local preservation organizations that have been pushing for new policies in regards to historic preservation throughout the city and specifically in Over-the-Rhine. The Over-the-Rhine Foundation and Cincinnati Preservation Association first made the suggestions earlier this year and have been pushing the issue for more several years.

 

Interesting to note that only five of City Council's nine members voted for the new task force. Council members Chris Bortz ©, Jeff Berding (D), Leslie Ghiz ® and Chris Monzel ® all voted against the measure (all four of these council members are running for reelection this November 3rd).

 

The move also comes on the heels of my recent appearance on City Talk Radio where we discussed (listen to the show) historic preservation in Cincinnati specifically focusing on Over-the-Rhine. During the show I discussed several critical items that must be addressed from a policy level to make historic preservation a priority in Cincinnati.

 

Relaxed parking requirements: Minimum parking requirements can become costly for developers working in historic districts where parking can be quite difficult to incorporate, especially for small developers. Relaxed parking requirements in historic districts can reduce cost burdens and help preserve the integrity of the neighborhoods.

 

Make preservation a policy priority: The City should adjust its policies to make historic preservation a priority. In cities like Savannah and Charleston they do just this by aggressively mandating preservation and even to the extent of purchasing historic properties in danger of demolition so that they can be placed in good hands and restored. City code officials need to adopt work practices that treat historic properties differently from the rest, with an emphasis on stabilization instead of demolition.

 

Remove the cost barriers: Relaxed parking requirements are just one way to remove the cost barriers and improve the attractiveness of investing in urban historic districts. Investment in quality public assets like parks, transportation and other infrastructure help create the dynamic urban environments that many urban dwellers demand. Investing in these improvements at the public level can make for lower capital costs for developers and/or improve the desirability of a historic neighborhood thus making price points more effective for private investment.

This block is looking great:

 

The material in the lower part of the corner post is a bit cheap-looking, but otherwise it's shaping up well:

Wow, those look incredible!

This is definitely the best of the three new OTR condo buildings (I'm including Gateway).  They really need to get that skinny building on the right renovated. 

 

This is from just a year ago. I took this photo to show the two gaps that were about to be filled.

 

Somebody please fix this one up:

 

 

Great improvements here.

Does anyone know how difficult it is to get financing on a building like the one in the picture above? I contacted 5/3rd about a building i was interested in and they said that there is no way that I would get financing on doing a rehab in OTR like this. Even though I'm approved for that amount of money, and they would lend to me if I was going to rehab in Oakley they won't do it in OTR. Are there any banks that are more willing to lend for rehabbing in OTR? I have a good amount for a down payment, but need to finance most of the money for the rehab.

Does anyone know how difficult it is to get financing on a building like the one in the picture above? I contacted 5/3rd about a building i was interested in and they said that there is no way that I would get financing on doing a rehab in OTR like this. Even though I'm approved for that amount of money, and they would lend to me if I was going to rehab in Oakley they won't do it in OTR. Are there any banks that are more willing to lend for rehabbing in OTR? I have a good amount for a down payment, but need to finance most of the money for the rehab.

 

Try PNC

The banks are still pretty tight with financing.

 

BDRUF, how'd your project work out?

It turned out great. It was a lot of work, but well worth it.

 

We ended up using CDF to finance the construction. They were great to work with, and I'd recommend them to anyone.

Guest Editorial

by Karen Monzel Hughes, Associate Professor of Design, University of Cincinnati

Rebuilding and Preserving: Two Aspects of Preservation

 

Roberta Brandes Gratz recently wrote that “[p]reservation is one of the most potent tools for city revitalization.” As a resident of Cincinnati, I was gratified to hear our mayor, Mark Mallory, quoted by Gratz in the article. How Cincinnati is revitalizing its core through preservation provides an example that should be examined nationally. The city is proving that preservation can be affordable while providing a stimulus for further preservation and development.

 

I have lived most of my life in urban environments that provide experience with two distinct types of preservation. Distinguishing between the two and recognizing the difference is important.

 

http://www.terrain.org/columns/30/guest.htm