Okay guys, before you start blasting me, read through the comments and questions...

 

 

Keep in mind I am not posting this with any type of seriousness. I am not trying to make a point by the way either... If I were serious, I wouldn't post this in the "Urbanbar".

 

Everyone seems to have this mentality that a city's "progression" or "vibrancy" depends on it's homosexual population. While this may play a part in the result of it's vibrancy or progression, I don't feel that the two are the same thing and neither one depends on one or the other (I am not against a city being open to gays/lesbians btw).

 

I was curious as to how the 3 big C's compare in homosexuality. I am not sure if there is a governmental source or not, so I thought, why not look at the number of online personals. I know this is a far stretch and it is in a sense humorous, but the results I got were a little shocking. I expected Columbus to blow Cincinnati out of the water and I expected Cleveland to outnumber Cincinnati's results.

 

If I were just going to post one cities' result, it would be even more pointless, but when all three are compared it should make for an interesting discussion.

 

Try not to make this into a VS. thread, but let's discuss on why the number of gays/lesbian are pretty similar when some cities are probably picked to be more open to gays than the other. Moderators, if I need to re-word this to keep this up to par, then let me know before deleting the thread. This is serious and I took the time to look up the results.

 

• I used Match.com and Yahoo Personals. (The two are pretty big and Match.com is in the Guinness World Records for online dating.)

• I searched all cities within a 50 mile radius.

• The results are of all personal ads, with and without photos.

* I am assuming Yahoo's results cut off at 1000.

 

Columbus:

 

Match.com

Men looking for men/  312

Women looking for women/ 277

 

Yahoo.com

Men looking for men/  1000

Women looking for women/ 980

 

Cincinnati:

 

Match.com

Men looking for men/ 419

Women looking for women/ 414

 

Yahoo.com

Men looking for men/ 1000

Women looking for women/ 1000

 

Cleveland:

 

Match.com

Men looking for men/ 488

Women looking for women/ 442

 

Yahoo.com

Men looking for men/ 1000

Women looking for women/ 1000

 

 

 

 

And for our friendly neighbors to the west:

St. Louis:

 

Match.com

Men looking for men/ 392

Women looking for women/ 366

 

Yahoo.com

Men looking for men/ 1000

Women looking for women/ 1000

 

Can you do a search to see if those women looking for women, need a male friend to join them? :)

^I like the way you think :laugh:

Those stats are interesting! I suppose the numbers for Columbus are high if you take into account the metro population. Cleveland has a lot more people in its metro, and Columbus isn't that far off from them.

what is with straight men wanting to get it on with two Lesbians ??? 

Hmmm...that's alot of even 1000's.  I wonder if you haven't bumped up against some results limit.

If i had to guess, Match.com is not a popular dating venue for gays and lesbians.  Gay.com might give a more accurate picture of gay men in an metro area.  Not sure what the lesbian dating portal would be.

 

In any case, this is not a good study.  The "creative class" is not just gays/lesbians. These groups on individuals play an important part in the "creative class" but their are other individuals from varying groups that are also a part of the creative class.

 

A better study would be comparing which cities are better equipped to keep the creative class.

what is with straight men wanting to get it on with two Lesbians ??? 

 

Do we really need to answer that?

Interesting use of the personals I suppose  :wink: Match isn't really considered a desirable portal by most. Yahoo, and the Out in America sites are a better reflection.

 

"this mentality that a city's "progression" or "vibrancy" depends on it's homosexual population."

 

I'm not going to give statistics or anything. I'm just going to make a little list:

 

Warehouse District

Tremont

Ohio City

Detroit-Shoreway

 

At one time, all of these neighborhoods were crime-infested, downtrodden and mostly written off for dead. It wasn't the hetero crowd who came in and renovated all those once boarded-up old homes that now sell for $200K + (and sit next to new construction selling at $500K + ), or put lofts in those old warehouse buildings (which are now seeing new condos as their neighbors).

 

It wasn't the non-artsy people who saw raw space and converted abandoned buildings into galleries and studios. Everything you see that's desirable about the above mentioned neighborhoods was started by "my people". And almost everything you see about areas like Edgewater/Clifton and pockets on the east side? That's "my people" protecting their investment. You simply cannot discount the impact and influence (financial or otherwise) that the gay community has in a city like Cleveland.

If i had to guess, Match.com is not a popular dating venue for gays and lesbians.  Gay.com might give a more accurate picture of gay men in an metro area.  Not sure what the lesbian dating portal would be.

 

In any case, this is not a good study.  The "creative class" is not just gays/lesbians. These groups on individuals play an important part in the "creative class" but their are other individuals from varying groups that are also a part of the creative class.

 

A better study would be comparing which cities are better equipped to keep the creative class.

 

I'm more so comparing gay populations, not the "creative class", which can include straight musicians, straight artist, and so on.

Interesting use of the personals I suppose  :wink: Match isn't really considered a desirable portal by most. Yahoo, and the Out in America sites are a better reflection.

 

"this mentality that a city's "progression" or "vibrancy" depends on it's homosexual population."

 

I'm not going to give statistics or anything. I'm just going to make a little list:

 

Warehouse District

Tremont

Ohio City

Detroit-Shoreway

 

At one time, all of these neighborhoods were crime-infested, downtrodden and mostly written off for dead. It wasn't the hetero crowd who came in and renovated all those once boarded-up old homes that now sell for $200K + (and sit next to new construction selling at $500K + ), or put lofts in those old warehouse buildings (which are now seeing new condos as their neighbors).

 

It wasn't the non-artsy people who saw raw space and converted abandoned buildings into galleries and studios. Everything you see that's desirable about the above mentioned neighborhoods was started by "my people". And almost everything you see about areas like Edgewater/Clifton and pockets on the east side? That's "my people" protecting their investment. You simply cannot discount the impact and influence (financial or otherwise) that the gay community has in a city like Cleveland.

 

 

Good point and example, but the two do not depend on each other (urban revitalization and homosexuality).

I will try to compare from better sources later today.

"Good point and example, but the two do not depend on each other (urban revitalization and homosexuality)."

 

In and of itself, homosexuality has nothing to do with urban revitalization. However, I can assure you that the gay community (and the intertwined creative class) has a LOT to do with urban revitalization.

 

I might also suggest that if you're going by what you see in Cincinnati, you're not going to see as much of a tangible influence. The community in Cincy is scattered and as I've said before, as cool and interesting as Northside is - I was surprised to see that the main "gayborhood" of Cincy was pretty rough around the edges - particularly in comparison to Columbus (Short North) and Cleveland (Edgewater/Clifton). I'm not suggesting that Cincy's community doesn't exist - it's just that it isn't as visible.

In and of itself, homosexuality has nothing to do with urban revitalization. However, I can assure you that the gay community (and the intertwined creative class) has a LOT to do with urban revitalization.

 

I'll agree with that.

 

 

I might also suggest that if you're going by what you see in Cincinnati, you're not going to see as much of a tangible influence. The community in Cincy is scattered and as I've said before, as cool and interesting as Northside is - I was surprised to see that the main "gayborhood" of Cincy was pretty rough around the edges - particularly in comparison to Columbus (Short North) and Cleveland (Edgewater/Clifton). I'm not suggesting that Cincy's community doesn't exist - it's just that it isn't as visible.

 

Sure, the Northside has a gay community there, but you will find in percentage, there is a large gay population living in downtown as well. I think Haynes007, Kendall, Michael Redmond, Mark, etc... can vouch for this. The suburbs of Cincinnati do not have a good reputation of being "gay friendly", but in the actual city even the straight people have a bitterness towards someone that opposes homosexuality. Why are gays/lesbians still here? Why do they not choose a city that is more "open"? I think the answer to that is, because the gay lifestyle in the city of Cincinnati is not that bad and just like the straight urbanists' here in the city see a reformation happening, the gays and lesbians see it as well. Why run from something when you can change it?

 

 

I've always seen Cincinnati as having many more "mini-enclaves" of whatever sub-grouping, and fewer regular enclaves.  Like, where I used to live in Clifton on Ludlow, there were four houses in a row with gay folks, with the rainbow flags flying and a huge Gay Pride Parade Block Party kind of thing, with different people moving in and out (most of them were rentals), but always a little island of gay-itude...it was very cool, but it was just one corner, not a whole community.  I see it most notably in the housing stock - little pockets of beautiful houses amidst a bunch of blight, or little pockets of blight amidst a bunch of nice neighborhoods...

 

I haven't made a study of it by any means, but that's always been my impression, and could be one of the reasons we don't seem to have a big gay community, and that where we have one, they aren't as impactful at turning a place around...

I have always said the quickest way to turn OTR around is to label it a gay neighborhood.  You are correct that the gay/lesbian population can have a positive effect on a city.  I do not question that at all.  The population in cinicnnati just seems fragmented.  No strong voice.  Look at the Cleveland area---they just elected 3 openly gay council people in varios cities and burbs.  Why can't that happen here? 

The community in Cincy is scattered and as I've said before, as cool and interesting as Northside is - I was surprised to see that the main "gayborhood" of Cincy was pretty rough around the edges

 

How "gay" is that neighborhood anyway?  I know some bars have opened there, but is it really that gay in terms of other buisnesses and gay people actually living there?

 

I'm not going to give statistics or anything. I'm just going to make a little list:

Warehouse District

Tremont

Ohio City

Detroit-Shoreway

At one time, all of these neighborhoods were crime-infested, downtrodden and mostly written off for dead. It wasn't the hetero crowd who came in and renovated all those once boarded-up old homes that now sell for $200K + (and sit next to new construction selling at $500K + ), or put lofts in those old warehouse buildings (which are now seeing new condos as their neighbors).

It wasn't the non-artsy people who saw raw space and converted abandoned buildings into galleries and studios. Everything you see that's desirable about the above mentioned neighborhoods was started by "my people". And almost everything you see about areas like Edgewater/Clifton and pockets on the east side? That's "my people" protecting their investment. You simply cannot discount the impact and influence (financial or otherwise) that the gay community has in a city like Cleveland

 

What I'm wondering is where is all this money coming from to restore old houses and such...this is not cheap to do.

 

Is Cleveland gay- freindly or gay-tolerant enough as to where openly gay people can actually be in the kinds of proffessional & managerial jobs that pay enough to support restoring old houses?

 

 

 

 

 

 

^ I'm not sure how long it has been since you've live in Northside, Mayday and this also goes to Jeff... but. yes, there are a lot of openly gay people there.

"Is Cleveland gay- freindly or gay-tolerant enough as to where openly gay people can actually be in the kinds of proffessional & managerial jobs that pay enough to support restoring old houses?"

 

Yes. Amongst my friends who are all openly gay at work - several attorneys, bankers, CPAs, doctors, real estate brokers, VP-level execs, CFO of a major non-profit, etc. As an art director, I'm waaaay down on the scale. And remember, most of us aren't saving up for the kids' college funds.

 

Yes Northside is Cincinnati's "gayborhood"

 

http://www.pbase.com/montecarloss/northside

 

 

... most of us aren't saving up for the kids' college funds.

 

But we better not point that out.

What are you saying?

 

My point is that most of us don't have kids and have no plans to have kids. Thus, there's more money available for home expenditures.

 

^I agree with that, but when I make that statement, I usually get attacked. First Financial bank down here targets the gay community for that reason which is why I believe the generalization is true, but several times I have been corrected on the issue.

Those stats are interesting! I suppose the numbers for Columbus are high if you take into account the metro population. Cleveland has a lot more people in its metro, and Columbus isn't that far off from them.

 

 

Just wanted to throw some numbers around...

I'm leaving out the yahoo stuff, since it seems as if it tops at 1000.

 

So that makes:

Columbus at 589 personals, Cincinnati at 833 personals, and Cleveland at 930 personals.

 

Metro population stats seems to vary quite a bit depending on where the boundaries are drawn, so I just pulled them from one source on the net that had all three cities listed (unfortunately these are from 1996, so if anyone can update, please do so). Columbus has approx 1.5mil in the metro area, Cincy has 1.9 and Cleveland has 2.9.

 

So that makes the ratios at:

 

Columbus: 1 ad for every 2546 people

Cincinnati: 1 ad for every 2280 people

Cleveland: 1 ad for every 3118 people

 

So that makes Columbus and Cincy very close, with Cleveland in third by quite a bit.

^ That Cleveland ratio is so low because the 2.9 million figure includes Akron, but the ads probably don't.

I don't think personal ads are a very good way of estimating the percentage of gay people in a community. In cities where social /professional pressures keep gays closeted, or where there are comparatively few social outlets and opportunities for public interaction in groups, I think people are more likely to resort to personal ads as a way to make contact with others.

 

In places where there are visible gay groups and businesses and gathering places, and where people don't haveas much pressure to be "discreet" about their sexual orientation, many people don't see the need to bother with personal ads.

 

Long ago I came to the conclusion that personal ads are often the last refuge of the desperately lonely. Looking for an alternative to bars to find companionship, I tried them for a while thirty years ago or so. Mostly I met closeted married men, guys dealing with lots of unresolved issues in their relationships with the church, "very private, discreet, straight-acting professionals," and various other socially dysfunctional guys.

I don't think personal ads are a very good way of estimating the percentage of gay people in a community. In cities where social /professional pressures keep gays closeted, or where there are comparatively few social outlets and opportunities for public interaction in groups, I think people are more likely to resort to personal ads as a way to make contact with others.

 

Rob, I also feel the same way you do about using these as a statistic for the homosexual population in a particular city. I stated this like 3 or 4 times.

 

I'll explain after this next response more on the sentence above.

 

In places where there are visible gay groups and businesses and gathering places, and where people don't haveas much pressure to be "discreet" about their sexual orientation, many people don't see the need to bother with personal ads.

 

Long ago I came to the conclusion that personal ads are often the last refuge of the desperately lonely. Looking for an alternative to bars to find companionship, I tried them for a while thirty years ago or so. Mostly I met closeted married men, guys dealing with lots of unresolved issues in their relationships with the church, "very private, discreet, straight-acting professionals," and various other socially dysfunctional guys.

 

30 years ago, personal ads were probably more for closeted gay men. In 2005, you will find people that are in their early teens to people that are past retirement age going to personal ads, and taking them seriously. Hell, I've browsed through them myself and I am in my mid-twenties.

 

I remember in my sociology class we were studying groups that live in very rural areas (not Monroe County rural, but rural, rural). The question was asked by the professor on whether or not people that live in rural areas are sheltered from technology and current trends. Studies show that people that lived in rural areas once were sheltered, but now that we have hit hard on the "satellite television" age (at a much cheaper price than before making it easier for people of lower income to afford and internet via satellite), those people are no longer sheltered. You don't see much satellite/internet users in urban areas in comparison to DSL, or Cable, but in states like Mississippi it is pretty popular. These areas of the country no longer have to be denied of internet or satellite television, based on cost or a lack of presence. I think you see where I am going with this. Relying on the internet for a companion is no longer against the norm in tech age.

 

Now, from where I left off earlier...

 

A number produced by Yahoo, or Match, is a pretty far fetch to get an idea of the number of gays in a particular city, but when you take the number of Cincinnati's, Columbus, and Cleveland, and compare all three number's you have something interesting and something worth discussing in my opinion.

 

Like I stated earlier towards the top... Even though Columbus has a much smaller metro in comparison to Cincinnati, I still expected the results from Match to out-number the results from Cincinnati. If Cleveland's metro is 3mil, then I would expect it to blow Cincinnati out of the water, but it doesn't. Not saying that Cleveland isn't more open to gays than Cincinnati but you see my point.

 

Why didn't I think of this earlier...

 

While Match.com provided good results, it didn't come close to Yahoo's. By the way, I also searched Gay.com and it was a good source, but not good for find the total "numbers" of "men looking for men". It capped out at 13 pages, no matter what was in the search fields.

 

So, I went back to Yahoo, and instead of searching within a 50 mile radius, I chose a 25 mile radius. *I did not use zip codes, but city names and states only.

 

25 mile radius:

 

Cleveland, still capped out at 1000

 

Cincinnati: 866

 

Columbus: 855

I returned from New York about 6 months ago, and I have been amazed by how many gay people there are (visibly) living in Cleveland. It has been one of the most pleasant surprises of my returning.

 

I had a gay friend up from Louisville this weekend, and he said to me at one point, "There are so many gays here!" Sure, that's a lot smaller city -- but I'd wager we do pretty well proportionally too. MayDay has posted before that Cleveland is not as good for the 25- crowd as it is for the 25+ crowd. I think that's true. But for the latter demographic, I would say the "pickings" are excellent. Combine that with the generally liberal politics of NEO, the fantastic arts and cultural offerings that "our people" tend to love, and you've got a very gay-friendly place indeed. (Incidentally, Columbus seems the Ohio city of choice for the 25- crowd. I admit I know nothing about Cincy's gay scene.)

I am gay but I don't live in any of the big three C's.  I was born in a small town; and it is tough at times living openly in a small town (you have to be very careful who you come out to).  But nonetheless, small-town life is pleasant and I have Cleveland and Toledo about an hour away and Columbus about 2 hours away!  However, I am glad I am away at college near Chicago (definitely not a small town). :)

^ So do you plan on moving back to Ohio after school?

We'll see; it depends where the opportunities for my profession are available.  I really love Ohio; the scenery, the people, the stuff to do and enjoy.  But since I am going into meteorology, that line of work tends to have people relocating a time or two or three  :-D

 

Personally, I would like to get a job in the Cleveland area; but who knows?!

Yay! :clap:

Well, let us know when/if you're looking to move back. People will have plenty of advice for you. This board was extremely helpful to me when I was neighborhood-hunting.

hmm all this talk about "homosexuals" (what is this, the 70s??) makes me wonder about the bisexuals and transexuals and pansexuals and pomosexuals... i mean they count too right?  hah and what about the new movement going on now where younger or "normal" gay people who dont even identify with the community anymore?  kinda hard to count those

 

first off i think its ridiculous to try to use a personals website to count gay people.  what about the amount of knowledge that straight people have with the community, the diversity of the gay community, etc??  those would be better factors in showing how much this population is integrated within the larger one. 

 

id say cleveland and columbus offer the most as far as the 3Cs towards gay people.  with columbus being for young people and cleveland being for the 25 and up crowd. 

 

and in cleveland it sure shows how much the gay community supports the bigger art community here which both help create fun interesting cultural neighborhoods.  its a pretty simple formula. the extra income helps without the kids. (but dont tell the lesbians in cleveland hts that)

Yes, the Cleveland arts community and the Cleveland gays (whether you call them a "community" or not) totally feed off each other. As I said earlier, I think the great cultural options are a big reason there are a lot of gay people in Cleveland. I may be reinforcing a stereotype there, but it happens to be a positive (and I think true) stereotype.

 

BTW, I too wouldn't mind seeing the title of this thread changed from "homosexuality" to "gay life" or some such. I think we're talking about something bigger than sexual behavior here. Any takers, moderators?

"where younger or "normal" gay people who dont even identify with the community anymore?"

 

If we lived in a truly tolerant world where I wouldn't have to worry about getting a power of attorney just to visit my S.O. in the hospital, or if there wasn't a law on the books in dozens of states oppressing legitimate relationships, I could understand why people wouldn't need to "identify with the community".

 

However that isn't reality, and if those people enjoy a more tolerant society, it sure as hell isn't because of their stance. When they get faced with the kind of bigotry that the rest of the community have endured, where will they get support? Who can identify with the struggle they're going through? They certainly enjoy the privileges of a more tolerant society, but they aren't the ones lobbying for the cause. What's worse is that by distancing themselves from the community, they also distance themselves from current information about things that affect all of us - from legislative policy to HIV/AIDS.

 

It's just like back in the days of Stonewall when the mainstream gays sure enjoyed their freedom, but they weren't the ones risking their lives and safety by throwing bricks and rioting against cops shaking down their clubs - it was the flaming queens, drag or otherwise. In many ways, we're just like everyone else - but in just as many ways, we aren't and I think those people need to remember that.

^You don't have to be part of the "gay community" to stand up for equal rights. I guess I'm what's being referred to as one of the ""normal" gay people" mentioned earlier. I don't see where you'd have to be involved with the community to be informed about legislation, HIV, etc.

Sure, you don't necessarily have to be involved with the "community at large" to be informed... but how about to raise awareness and visibility? Then again, you live in a city where the community itself is relatively "normalized" into the mainstream and that's a good thing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyones' prerogative should be putting on a rainbow flag shirt (I don't), marching in a pride parade (I haven't - though I've attended pride events), etc. However - there are times and causes that should warrant our unified support as a community that needs to take action, don't you think?

However - there are times and causes that should warrant our unified support as a community that needs to take action, don't you think?

 

AMEN!

 

I'll take this as an opportunity to encourage people out there to sign Equality Ohio's Equality Pledge or to participate in Lobby Day for Equality.

 

 

However - there are times and causes that should warrant our unified support as a community that needs to take action, don't you think?

 

AMEN!

 

I'll take this as an opportunity to encourage people out there to sign Equality Ohio's Equality Pledge or to participate in Lobby Day for Equality.

 

 

 

I agree that we need to take action and not only be politically involved, but visible. And that includes "straight-acting" gay/lesbian people. Thanks for the Lobby Day for Equality link. I had already seen that on their site, but it's probably best that I signed up just now so that I don't forget. Is it just me, or is HRC more for socializing while Equality Ohio, which had that rally at the statehouse (which I attended) and the upcoming Lobby Day, actually tries to get gay people involved politically? I looked at what HRC is doing in Columbus and they have planned a social, Mardi Gras, and gala dinner.  :|