August 13, 201014 yr Sacrilege at Ground Zero By Charles Krauthammer Friday, August 13, 2010 Washington Post A place is made sacred by a widespread belief that it was visited by the miraculous or the transcendent (Lourdes, the Temple Mount), by the presence there once of great nobility and sacrifice (Gettysburg), or by the blood of martyrs and the indescribable suffering of the innocent (Auschwitz). ... America is a free country where you can build whatever you want -- but not anywhere. That's why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn't meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all. These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred. No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz -- and no mosque at Ground Zero. Build it anywhere but there. The governor of New York offered to help find land to build the mosque elsewhere. A mosque really seeking to build bridges, Rauf's ostensible hope for the structure, would accept the offer. ... more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/12/AR2010081204996.html
August 14, 201014 yr How about we label this thread correctly. "Islamic Community Center" at Ground Zero, wait... that doesn't sound as threatening. Also, this community center is 2 blocks away in an old Burlington Coat Factory (sacred ground indeed) and if anyone is wondering there are strip clubs within the same radius.
August 14, 201014 yr It's as if these idiots forgot that Muslims ALSO died during 9/11, not just Christians and Jews. Build the damn mosque. If they don't, they should close every church and synagogue in Lower Manhattan and covert them into Chili's. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 14, 201014 yr Obama throws support behind controversial Islamic center ........................... "Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country." "That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," Obama said ........................... Bloomberg compared Obama's speech to a letter President George Washington wrote in support of a Jewish congregation in Newport, Rhode Island. "President Obama's words tonight evoked President Washington's own August reminder that 'all possess alike liberty,' " Bloomberg said in a statement. ........................... "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable," Obama said. "The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are. The writ of our Founders must endure." http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/13/obama.islamic.center.support/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn
August 14, 201014 yr I thought we were fight AGAINST religious oppression! I understand the wounds from 9/11 are still tender (especially for those that were in NYC), but Islam did not take down the WTC. A group of radical Muslims did. Just because a radical christian blows up an abortion clinic doesn't mean we can't build churches within 2 blocks of that clinic. This entire debate is ridiculous.
August 14, 201014 yr I thought we were fight AGAINST religious oppression! I understand the wounds from 9/11 are still tender (especially for those that were in NYC), but Islam did not take down the WTC. A group of radical Muslims did. But what organizations/whose money is being used to build this mosque? From the first article posted in this thread: "Of course that strain represents only a minority of Muslims. Islam is no more intrinsically Islamist than present-day Germany is Nazi -- yet despite contemporary Germany's innocence, no German of goodwill would even think of proposing a German cultural center at, say, Treblinka. Which makes you wonder about the goodwill behind Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's proposal. This is a man who has called U.S. policy "an accessory to the crime" of 9/11 and, when recently asked whether Hamas is a terrorist organization, replied, "I'm not a politician. . . . The issue of terrorism is a very complex question." " ##### Anti-ground zero mosque ad: ##### Obama calls Ground Zero "hallowed ground" then says we must build a mosque there:
August 14, 201014 yr I find this to be incredibly insensitive. Imagine if we built a mosque at the Pentagon (yeah there is a tiny cultural center one, but I'm talking about a 100 million dollar project)? Or at the Shanksville crash site? Can you imagine if a German cultural museums were built in the early 1950s by the concentration camp sites? ... What if we had built an American heritage museum in Nagasaki or Hiroshima 9 years after the atom bomb? How about a Japanese Shinto shrine right dead center of Nanking in the early 1950s (I'm referring to the Rape of Nanking here btw)? Not to mention the concerns with terrorist organizations funding this mosque through various channels directly or indirectly. Not to mention the repeated anti-American rhetoric and propaganda that goes on in many many MANY of the mosques within our borders. Not to mention this Feisal Abdul Rauf character and his questionable international ties, opinions on 9/11Hamas/Hezbollah/anti Western World philosophies... Sometimes common sense has to be a factor in decision-making, and this mosque is just a slap in the face to most non-Muslims in America, certainly New Yorkers. It's not necessary for cultural relations and this is not the time. Mr. Toby Ziegler got it right: TOBY - Well... How about when we, instead of blowing Iraq back to the seventh century for harbouring te...rrorists and trying to develop nuclear weapons, we just imposed economic sanctions and were reviled by the Arab world for not giving them a global charge card and a free trade treaty? How about when we pushed Israel to give up land for peace? TOBY - How about when we sent American soldiers to protect Saudi Arabia, and the Arab world told us we were desecrating their holy land? We'll ignore the fact that we were invited. How about two weeks ago, in the State of the Union when the President praised the Islamic people as faithful and hardworking only to be denounced in the Arab press as knowing nothing about Islam? But none of that is the point. TOBY- I don't remember having to explain to Italians that our problem wasn't with them, but with Mussolini! Why does the U.S. have to take every Arab country out for an ice cream cone? They'll like us when we win! TOBY - Thousands of madrassahs teaching children nothing, nothing, nothing but the Koran and to hate America. Who do we see about that? Do I want to preach America? Judeo-Christianity? No. If their religion forbids them from playing the trumpet, so be it. But I want those kids to... look at a globe. Be exposed to social sciences, history. Some literature. I'll like us when we win.
August 14, 201014 yr It's as if these idiots forgot that Muslims ALSO died during 9/11, not just Christians and Jews. Build the damn mosque. If they don't, they should close every church and synagogue in Lower Manhattan and covert them into Chili's. AGREED!
August 14, 201014 yr maybe they should start opening Chili's in churches. Some of them have Starbucks. It would increase attendance. http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
August 14, 201014 yr So..... is the issue the fact that there will be a mosque put into a community center at ground zero? Or is the issue with who exactly is funding the project? I think people have every right to frown upon it, but the simple fact is that freedom and liberty must prevail over others' feelings. If you can burn an American Flag and if you can carry around racist signs at large political rallies, you can build a mosque wherever you can build a church or synagogue. BTW, I think this pretty much closes the book on Scrabble's claims to be in favor of "liberty for all!" Like I said before, as long as the end result is the same, the far right doesn't care what rationale you use to get there. The most offensive thing about this whole debate is an attempt to frame it as an "us vs. them" issue. This isn't the muslim world building a mosque.... it is private developers who hold the legal right to develop that land. If the zoning laws stated that ground zero was to remain as is as a memorial to those lost, no mosque. The PA or whoever has authority over the land has chosen to develop it and there is nothing that would stop a private developer from putting any kind of reigious institution they choose.
August 14, 201014 yr From Curbed NY: Commissioners Heckled After 'Ground Zero Mosque' Vote The tone was hushed this morning inside Pace University, where the Landmarks Preservation Commission met before a slew of cameras and the public and voted unanimously not to protect the building at 45-47 Park Place in the Financial District, standing since 1858. That site is two blocks north of where the new World Trade Center is now rising, and where plans to build a new Islamic community center called Park51 (aka Cordoba House and the "Ground Zero Mosque") have become a hot topic. The vote clears the way for the developer, SoHo Properties, to move ahead with the 13- to 15-story building housing prayer rooms, performance spaces, a swimming pool and other enticements. The next step will be raising the projected $100 million needed to make the plan a reality, and fending off a lawsuit. No doubt this saga will continue. Street level view of 49-51 Park Place (L) and 45-47 Park Place ®. Last used as a Burlington Coat Factory outlet. Currently vacant. Exterior rendering for the renovation into Park51 (aka Cordoba House and the "Ground Zero Mosque") View of the Islamic Community Center site that is proposed two blocks north of the WTC site. Full article: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/08/03/commissioners_heckled_after_ground_zero_mosque_vote.php
August 14, 201014 yr Obama calls Ground Zero "hallowed ground" then says we must build a mosque there: Yes, he calls Ground Zero "hallowed ground" as it is. No, he never even came close to saying "we must build a mosque there" That's your ears playing tricks on you again and/or you relying on other people's misinformation. He never even says that he is in favor of a mosque at ground zero. All he said was he was in favor of the right/freedom/liberty (remember those words?) to build a mosque at ground zero. He is in favor of the right to freely practice one's religion within the bounds of the law. BIG difference than him saying "we".... "must".... build a mosque there. I guess you disagree with him.
August 14, 201014 yr The mosque isn't at Ground Zero, it's two blocks away, and the two sites aren't even visible from one another. In Lower Manhattan, two blocks may as well be two miles. But that's beside the point. If we're going to start outlawing the free exercise of religion based on that religion's history of violence and persecution, or based on the actions of extremists within that religion, then the only houses of worship left will be some Bahá'í temples and maybe a few Quaker meeting houses. Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing.
August 15, 201014 yr "An enormously complex and emotional issue -- but ultimately the right thing to do. A president is president for every citizen, including every Muslim citizen. Obama is correct that the way to marginalize radicalism is to respect the best traditions of Islam and protect the religious liberty of Muslim Americans. It is radicals who imagine an American war on Islam. But our conflict is with the radicals alone,” - Michael Gerson For those opposed to the mosque: How many blocks away would be acceptable?
August 15, 201014 yr No one is suggesting the government step in and ban anything, they're just pointing out that it is in bad taste and shouldn't have been proposed at all. The connection is a loose one, but the biggest mass murder in history was committed by religious fanatics Just for the record, most of the people I know in NYC are extremely liberal, but have a personal connection to this. The landmarks preservation committee is so corrupt in driving development the powers that be see fit (rather than the actual historical character of anything), they should have just stopped this shitshow when they had the chance, rather than try to come off as PC. If you're going to be corrupt, at least do it with some common sense. I can only imagine the nonsense that's going to be taking place at this construction site every day. They're going to need a dozen 24 hour security staff.
August 15, 201014 yr Posts that discuss religion instead of Islamic Center proposal on Park Place in New York City have been moved into the Religion thread in the Urbanbar section. Please continue any religious discussion in that thread. Please keep discussion in this project-related thread to the proposed project.
August 15, 201014 yr I assume this ugly thing will be built. I hope it has a 9/11 memorial or something as part of it. Judging by the imam and others involved in bringing this center to the Ground Zero area, I doubt that "bridge building" is actually high on their list, but we shall see.
August 16, 201014 yr No one is suggesting the government step in and ban anything Actually, lots of people are saying that: http://action.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=2147497353 http://www.zeenews.com/news646019.html just two examples
August 16, 201014 yr No one is suggesting the government step in and ban anything Actually, lots of people are saying that: http://action.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=2147497353 http://www.zeenews.com/news646019.html just two examples That's not "lots" and they are on the fringe. People cite sources like that to make the people who have legitimate concerns look bad. Banning all mosques across the entire country is a much, much different idea than opposing the ground zero area mosque. In fact, it's not even remotely the same thing.
August 16, 201014 yr I hope the GZM has some public area that remembers the victims and recognizes/rejects the radical Islamist ideology behind the 9/11 attacks. No "America was an accomplice to the crime of 9/11" BS like the imam said 19 days after the attacks.
August 16, 201014 yr Imagine if they wanted to build a WalMart instead of a Mosque. Remember that landing gear from one of the airplanes crashed through the building they want to demolish to build a mosque. How do I add a poll to this thread?
August 16, 201014 yr Duke University and UNC did a joint study on Islam in the United States. Here's what they found Study: Threat of Muslim-American terrorism in U.S. exaggerated But it is the Muslim-American communities themselves who play a large role in keeping the number of radicalized members low through their own practices, according to the study. Leaders and Muslim-American organizations denounce violent acts, for instance, in messages that have weight within communities. In addition, such communities often self-police -- confronting those who express radical ideology or support for terrorism and communicating concerns about radical individuals to authorities. Some Muslim-Americans have adopted programs for youth to help identify those who react inappropriately to controversial issues so they can undergo counseling and education, the researchers said. "Muslim-American communities have been active in preventing radicalization," said Charles Kurzman, professor of sociology at UNC, in the statement. "This is one reason that Muslim-American terrorism has resulted in fewer than three dozen of the 136,000 murders committed in the United States since 9/11." more at http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/01/06/muslim.radicalization.study/index.html
August 16, 201014 yr http://daryllang.com/blog/4421 Yeah, I saw that earlier today and laughed. The point went completely by the guys head, but he did do a hell of a job building up and tearing down straw men.
August 16, 201014 yr That reactionary Harry Reid is against the Ground Zero Mosque: Analysis: Mosque talk another hurdle for Dems Aug 16 04:10 PM US/Eastern By LIZ SIDOTI AP National Political Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - Add another election-year hurdle for Democrats: President Barack Obama's forceful defense of the right of Muslims to build a mosque near the World Trade Center site. His comments are giving Republicans a campaign-year cudgel and forcing Democrats to address a divisive issue within weeks of midterm contests that will decide the balance of power in Washington. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, in a competitive re-election fight, was the highest profile Democrat to move away from Obama on the matter. "The First Amendment protects freedom of religion," Reid's spokesman Jim Manley said in a statement Monday. "Senator Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else." More: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9HKPM900&show_article=1
August 17, 201014 yr I view this issue more as an opportunity for a small American victory. Rather than protesting or making an issue of this we should welcome it and prove that no act of terror will force us to abandon one of our core founding values, that of free worship of your chosen religion without government intervention. Lead the world by example and demonstrate our tolerance and celebration of all religions. The more we squawk about this the bigger the belly laugh Al Qaeda is having. Someone mentioned Pearl Harbour and Treblinka as analogous to Ground zero and I just don't see it. Oddly there actually is a Japanese cultural center about 4 miles down the road from the entrance to Pearl Harbour. Maybe that's the magic number; 4 miles. We should close down all the mosques within a 4 mile radius of ground zero. This would include the one that's currently only 4 blocks away. Treblinka is in the middle of the woods on the outskirts of a small village in Poland building even a Starbucks would be sacreligious. This is New York one of the most dense urban landscapes in the world; 2 blocks may as well be 2 miles in terms of what separates the two sites. Besides how hallowed is this site? We have chosen to build 4 large skyscrapers to replace the two leaving room for only a small memorial. We have chosen to build these cathedrals to the true religion of the U.S., commerce. Some perspective: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-hearing-update more from the same show: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-update---ground-zero-mosque
August 17, 201014 yr This thread is locked until things cool down. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 25, 201014 yr Meh, I don't see the problem unless you're looking at it from Hamilton Park in New Jersey but even then the Hudson Yards project would block that view already. If anything, it's an honor and testament to the ESB for this building to get built. Like a grandpa watching a grandson grow. But really, the building should be built behind the Citicorp Center. ;) "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 25, 201014 yr I agree with the ESB owner, although I don't necessarily think anything 'should' be done about it. I feel the same way about the Key Center in downtown Cleveland and the way it overwhelms the Terminal Tower.
August 25, 201014 yr As I've heard, New York is the new Paris, Shanghai is the new New York. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 25, 201014 yr Looks like it's being developed by MMPI's parent company (same people who are doing the Cleveland MedMart).
August 25, 201014 yr Looks like it's pretty much going to happen: From ArchPaper: The battle for the soul of New York—or at least for its skyline—was over before it even really began. The City Council Land Use Committee just voted in favor of Vornado’s roughly 1,200-foot, Pelli Clarke Pelli-designed 15 Penn Plaza, apparently unswayed by complaints from the owner of the Empire State Building http://blog.archpaper.com/wordpress/archives/8621 I never fully understood the people that complain about tall buildings in Midtown Manhattan. I can see why the ESB would be a bit pissed, but this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Look up Jean Nouvel's stalled tower at MOMA. People complained it would block views and sunlight, etc. Give me a break, if views and sunlight are on your list of priorities you are living in the wrong city.
August 25, 201014 yr The view from the west isn't even the best side of the ESB so I don't even know why people are complaining. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 25, 201014 yr Rarely is anything from Jersey the best! I think this will actually improve the view from my place in Queens: .. er, on second thought I probably won't see it thanks to the gentrified condo tower elevator machine room.
August 25, 201014 yr Yeah, you wouldn't be able to see it. But maybe that's a good thing since all this is is a fatter, shorter version of 2IFC in Hong Kong. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 27, 201014 yr Someone has posted Ron Paul's response to the GZM and now here's another voice of the liberty movement on the issue: YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. & YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
August 27, 201014 yr I think it's fun to compare and contrast the Mosque controversy with the newest matter of taste hitting the headlines, Beck's MLK rally. Or the old discussions about flying the confederate flag or Chief Whahoo. The politics of offense are really fascinating and messy.
August 27, 201014 yr All the Daily Show and Colbert Report references to the Ground Zero Mosque crack me up...if anyone can find the clips during this past week, please post
August 27, 201014 yr Not sure why you're bringing the Restoring Honor Rally into this thread. MLK's niece will be a speaker at it, BTW. ######## If the Ground Zero Mosque is supposed to be a "bridge," the imam should denounce Hamas and the intolerance in the Muslim world and include a memorial for 911 victims along with a refutation of radical Islam. But if it's his property, he can do with it what he wants.
August 27, 201014 yr All the Daily Show and Colbert Report references to the Ground Zero Mosque crack me up...if anyone can find the clips during this past week, please post I thought this was one of the funnier clips: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap Gotta love Fox :wtf:
August 27, 201014 yr The parallels in the criticism are obvious to me. That's why it is a clever analogy. Not saying there are any parallels between the rally and the mosque. BTW, I hear MLK's second cousin will not be a speaker at the rally. And I think you should read up on the Imam for the GZM. He does refute radicalism and intolerance in any 'world'.
August 27, 201014 yr you can't go wrong with Miss USA! http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/ground_zero_mosque_imam_says_radical_7rGRZmCD1Lh7sf2QSiYSRJ Muslim-born Miss USA says she opposes Ground Zero Islamic center POST WIRE SERVICES Last Updated: 4:30 PM, August 20, 2010 Posted: 10:06 AM, August 20, 2010 The reigning Miss USA has come out against the Ground Zero mosque, saying "it shouldn't be so close" to Ground Zero. The 24-year-old Rima Fakih, is the first Muslim winner of the Miss USA contest and is preparing for the Miss Universe Pageant, scheduled for Monday in Las Vegas. "I totally agree with President Obama with the statement on Constitutional rights of freedom of religion," Fakih told "Inside Edition" in an interview that will air tonight. "I also agree that it shouldn't be so close to the World Trade Center. We should be more concerned with the tragedy than religion." http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
August 27, 201014 yr Never thought I would see the day when a story gets on line about what Miss USA is thinking and not show her picture.
August 27, 201014 yr Never thought I would see the day when a story gets on line about what Miss USA is thinking and not show her picture. I don't get it either. I first saw this article in the print edition and her picture was there. She's probably become the victim of a fatwah. http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
August 27, 201014 yr Never thought I would see the day when a story gets on line about what Miss USA is thinking and not show her picture. you want pictures? Here's some pictures! http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=rima%20fakih&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1225&bih=614 http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
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