August 28, 201014 yr I think mainstream Islam is not moderate and that's an important distinction. We (Americans, Westerners, non-Islamists, etc.) do face a serious and very real threat from the global jihad and its funders. For some reason, moderate Muslims have been marginalized in many Muslim countries. This is a problem.
August 28, 201014 yr I say build it. You put a mosque nearby and you're guaranteed that ground zero won't be a target again. Miss USA is saying that so her Tiara doesn't get snatched off of her head the following year. Oh well, at least she probably knows where Iraq is on the map. They should recruit her to be the Secretary of State for the Obama administration. How could foreign delegates disagree with a face like that?
August 28, 201014 yr I say build it. You put a mosque nearby and you're guaranteed that ground zero won't be a target again. Miss USA is saying that so her Tiara doesn't get snatched off of her head the following year. Oh well, at least she probably knows where Iraq is on the map. They should recruit her to be the Secretary of State for the Obama administration. How could foreign delegates disagree with a face like that? Dude there is already a Mosque down there. This is such a non issue especially for people who don't live in NYC and trying to capitalize on the issue for election purposes.
August 28, 201014 yr I think mainstream Islam is not moderate and that's an important distinction. We (Americans, Westerners, non-Islamists, etc.) do face a serious and very real threat from the global jihad and its funders. For some reason, moderate Muslims have been marginalized in many Muslim countries. This is a problem. Weird.... that's exactly how I feel about the present day right-wing ;) But if you are so worried about 'moderate Muslims' being marginalized, why not throw your support behind a moderate Muslim, such as the one behind the GZM. What kind of message are we sending by villifying him in the court of public opinion.
August 28, 201014 yr I think mainstream Islam is not moderate and that's an important distinction. We (Americans, Westerners, non-Islamists, etc.) do face a serious and very real threat from the global jihad and its funders. For some reason, moderate Muslims have been marginalized in many Muslim countries. This is a problem. Weird.... that's exactly how I feel about the present day right-wing ;) But if you are so worried about 'moderate Muslims' being marginalized, why not throw your support behind a moderate Muslim, such as the one behind the GZM. Moderates don't support terrorists like Hamas or call the regime in Iran "just government" conveying the "will of the people".
August 28, 201014 yr All the Daily Show and Colbert Report references to the Ground Zero Mosque crack me up...if anyone can find the clips during this past week, please post I thought this was one of the funnier clips: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap Gotta love Fox :wtf: LOL thanks
August 29, 201014 yr When it's so easy, why can't he manage to be funny? He's been steadily downhill since Half Baked.
August 29, 201014 yr I'd say that is more a problem with your utter lack of a sense of humor, Ram. EVen my more conservative friends can still suck up their pride and laugh at that show. Is it that the truth hurts too much?
August 29, 201014 yr I watch Colbert and laugh, Daily Show has just been downhill. The guy before Stewart was pretty good, though.
August 29, 201014 yr Already making for excellent neighbors! Ground Zero mosque developers owe $224,000 in back property taxes The mosque developers are tax deadbeats. Sharif El-Gamal, the leading organizer behind the mosque and community center near Ground Zero, owes $224,270.77 in back property tax on the site, city records show. Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/mosque_big_owes_tax_rNN0l21LN43U6WhTmIawSP#ixzz0y1EUrBMC
August 30, 201014 yr Author current fleabitten hotel or not the bottom line is they shouldnt tear down a mckim, mead and white for a dullard generic pelli. come on now -- rise up to the site occasion vornado!
August 30, 201014 yr McKim, Mead, and White's legacy and the people of the city already took it on the chin when Penn Station was demolished for the abomination that is Madison Square Garden. This is just rubbing salt in the wound. I say let them build it, though. None of the opposition has sufficient ground to stop a project of this magnitude. Ram23, where in Queens do you live? Is that the view from Long Island City? I moved to Astoria from Cincy back in January and love the area.
August 30, 201014 yr That is the view from Astoria. I live toward the southern end of the neighborhood, closer to LIC, on 30th Drive. I used to live here a few years ago and moved back for an internship.
August 30, 201014 yr Noted. I'm at Ditmars and 21st Street near Astoria Park. In the winter without leaves on the trees, I can see the ESB and Chrysler Building through the Triborough, but my view is decidedly lacking in comparison to yours.
August 30, 201014 yr McKim, Mead, and White's legacy and the people of the city already took it on the chin when Penn Station was demolished for the abomination that is Madison Square Garden. This is just rubbing salt in the wound. I say let them build it, though. None of the opposition has sufficient ground to stop a project of this magnitude. I thought MSG was built on top of Penn Station, no?
August 30, 201014 yr McKim, Mead, and White's legacy and the people of the city already took it on the chin when Penn Station was demolished for the abomination that is Madison Square Garden. This is just rubbing salt in the wound. I say let them build it, though. None of the opposition has sufficient ground to stop a project of this magnitude. I thought MSG was built on top of Penn Station, no? Penn Station was moved underground. It didn't used to be. Google "original penn station"
August 30, 201014 yr McKim, Mead, and White's legacy and the people of the city already took it on the chin when Penn Station was demolished for the abomination that is Madison Square Garden. This is just rubbing salt in the wound. I say let them build it, though. None of the opposition has sufficient ground to stop a project of this magnitude. I thought MSG was built on top of Penn Station, no? Penn Station was moved underground. It didn't used to be. Google "original penn station" It wasn't moved underground per se. MSG and the Penn Plaza buildings were built above the existing tracks/platform (although they were renovated).
September 2, 201014 yr ^ Well said. Harry Reid is tool. If we protest against this, we're protesting against our core beliefs. People have the right to freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I personally believe in freedom of land-use as long as it's not a threat to public health and adheres to market forces. A lot of stupid ideas are unpopular but history has shown that a lot of good ones were too. That's why the majority isn't really the side that needs protected rights; it's the minority. IMO, this isn't something Capitol Hill or the White House should be wasting their time with. We don't judge Christianity based on the KKK and many, many other Christian Terrorist Groups that still exist to this day. I can't believe ignorant people are letting Al-Qaeda divide our country the way it has. Those same critics who lump all Muslims together don't recognize how corrupt the mostly Christian, politically-motivated Supreme Court and heavily-Jewish Global Finance system can be. This is what, a few blocks from ground zero? I think a lot of people visualize in their head that the towers are literally just going to be replaced with a mosque. This is perceived as an "insult to America", well so what? People insult America all the time. Hell, I do. You don't have to be a Muslim to insult America. If we start taking people's rights away, we're no longer living in America. We're living in a country where unpopular opinion is stifled and that's not a country I want to live in.
September 6, 201014 yr I'm with Ron Paul on this. Again he reminds me that he may be too principled, honest and well reasoned to ever get elected to the presidency. http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/ron-paul-sunshine-patriots-stop-your-demagogy-about-the-nyc-mosque/ Someone has posted Ron Paul's response to the GZM and now here's another voice of the liberty movement on the issue: YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. & YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
September 6, 201014 yr Is the Liberty Movement really rallying against the mosque? According to their principles, they should be protesting the idea of frickin "socialist" zoning laws, not defending "sensitivity". Everyone except for one person on the community's board approved the mosque. It was like 24-1. That's because they know a lot of Muslims died on 9/11 and know how irrelevant and unproductive this tit-for-tat nonsense about which side killed how many people and why, truly is. Our zoning laws are local and reflect the views of locals for a reason. Their main goal is to protect quality of life and public health. A religious organization is far from being any threat to that and anyway, it's up to them, not the rest of the world. I can't believe people all the way in Europe feel they should prattle on about it, flooding Youtube, message boards and blog sites giving these strong opinions exposing their annoying religious intolerance. Al-Qaeda represents Islam about as much as the KKK or Skinheads represent Christianity. IMO all religions are equally absurd but I wouldn't be comfortable living in a country where they weren't allowed to exist where they own land. Thank God for Ron Paul. I don't agree with a lot of what he thinks on some issues but I have so much respect him because he hasn't sold out to the Republican Party Neo-Cons. He makes me optimistic that one day intelligent people on both ends of this polarized spectrum will actually vote for a third party out of principle instead of just "voting for the lesser evil in the corrupt 2-party system".
September 7, 201014 yr It's strange the developer can get all kinds of funding for his Religious Community Center, but can't fix a few leaks here and there, and has buildings crumbling down into the streets. An exclusive from the New York Post: Mosque Developer has Shoddy Building Record The developer behind the planned Ground Zero mosque already has a lousy record with the city Buildings Department -- racking up $24,650 in fines for safety and construction violations at a Washington Heights apartment building that his firm owns. The violations involve some of the department's more serious charges, from cracks running the height of the six-story, brick walk-up to blocked exits and fire escapes, falling mortar and an unstable chimney, city records show. "Every time it rains, I set a pan on my bed and another one on the floor," said Don McCants, 61, a truck driver and longtime tenant of the building owned by mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal and his firm, Soho Properties. "It's no drip, drip, drip, either," he lamented. "It comes down fast." Since 2008, there have been 21 code violations at the building at 504 W. 159th St., which El-Gamal and Soho Properties purchased the previous year. Of these, nine violations are still open, and $19,500 in fines are unpaid. Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/mosque_developer_has_shoddy_building_jPmS9CmLSoWt0FKfPktMHN?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=#ixzz0yrqB10nI
September 8, 201014 yr ^^What's your point? You are surprised that a developer could secure financing for the GZM but not for some of his other, wholly separate, more delapidated properties? Really?
September 8, 201014 yr ^Yeah, I don't understand why that's surprising either. Not even sure it's true- has any money even been raised?
September 8, 201014 yr I don't understand why it is relevant.... other than... well, nevermind. You don’t understand why it’s relevant? A history of neglected properties and backed taxes by a developer isn’t relevant in a development thread about a certain project? Do you read threads on this site? If a developer can’t maintain small properties and can’t manage to pay taxes, you really trust them to undertake a project of this scale, magnitude, and international attention? It was a shitshow from the beginning, and it’s only going to get worse.
September 8, 201014 yr ^Have you investigated the maintenance records of any other developer in the Non-Ohio Projects forum? I didn't think so...
September 8, 201014 yr ^Have you investigated the maintenance records of any other developer in the Non-Ohio Projects forum? I didn't think so... I post in most of the non-Ohio projects threads that take place in New York City. This is, generally, the only one that’s in the national news, aside from the Penn Station skyscraper. Just because the biggest debate about this project concerns another topic doesn’t mean we should take all other discussion off the table, even though that’s exactly what both sides with vested interests in the project want.
September 8, 201014 yr Fair enough. I must have misinterpreted this: It's strange the developer can get all kinds of funding for his Religious Community Center, but can't fix a few leaks here and there, and has buildings crumbling down into the streets. I suppose I thought you were making some kind of commentary on the sources of the funding for the mosque... To be clear though, what did you mean by "it's strange"?
September 8, 201014 yr ^ They can go ahead with such a controversial, complicated development while they can't fix a leak in some guys roof. Their priorities are strange, almost like they are just attention-whoring.
September 8, 201014 yr Now that's more like it. Maybe the profits they make from 'such a controversial, complicated development' - which don't forget is funded by 'mysterious' sources - will allow them to fix some guys roof. Or maybe they should have just asked the financiers of the GZM to redirect their funding to some guys roof in Washington Heights. I'm sure they could've sold them on that. I still don't get your complaint, though. You don't want the mosque there, yet you want it well-built and free of any code violations that may close it down? Seems like crocadile tears if you ask me...
September 9, 201014 yr excellent column! :clap: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/starting_to_say_no_hUz9VY1Py5KvOgrU36plDL Starting to say 'no' Demanding truly moderate Islam By ANDREW C. McCARTHY Last Updated: 2:50 AM, September 9, 2010 Posted: 12:12 AM, September 9, 2010 "For the better part of two decades, Americans have been murdered by Islamists and then lectured that they are to blame for what has befallen them. We have been instructed in the need for special sensitivity to the unceasing demands of Islamic culture and falsely accused of intolerance by the people who wrote the book on intolerance. Americans have sacrificed blood and bottomless treasure for Islamic peoples who despise Americans -- and despise us even more as our sacrifices and gestures of self-loathing intensify. Americans have watched as apologists for terrorists and sha ria were made the face of an American Muslim community that we were simultaneously assured was the very picture of pro-American moderation." "We're weary, and we don't really care if that means that Timemagazine, Michael Bloomberg, Katie Couric, Fareed Zakaria and the rest think we're bad people -- they think we're bad people anyway. So finally we're asking: Where is this "moderate Islam" you've been telling us about?" http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
September 9, 201014 yr That column was moronic. Impeccably calibrated to tap into resentment-in that sense a real triumph- but just completely stupid.
September 9, 201014 yr Now that's more like it. Maybe the profits they make from 'such a controversial, complicated development' - which don't forget is funded by 'mysterious' sources - will allow them to fix some guys roof. Or maybe they should have just asked the financiers of the GZM to redirect their funding to some guys roof in Washington Heights. I'm sure they could've sold them on that. I still don't get your complaint, though. You don't want the mosque there, yet you want it well-built and free of any code violations that may close it down? Seems like crocadile tears if you ask me... The developer is neglecting many of their other duties and properties, and pushing forward a controversial project instead. No crocodile tears from me, the developer is the hypocrite here.
September 9, 201014 yr ^Do you think that standard should be used for all developers? In other words, would you support a change to NY law that, for instance, barred the granting of building permits to any party whose affiliates had any open DOB violations? I can only imagine REBNY's reaction to that.
September 9, 201014 yr ^ No, NY's laws are already way too oppressive and the cause of many unnecessary costs and wasted time. I've never once argued anything should be done by the city or state to stop this, I'm just painting the picture that this developer is an attention whoring deadbeat, and that any notion of this project being in the best interest of anyone other than the developer himself is BS.
September 9, 201014 yr ^ No, NY's laws are already way too oppressive and the cause of many unnecessary costs and wasted time. I've never once argued anything should be done by the city or state to stop this, I'm just painting the picture that this developer is an attention whoring deadbeat, and that any notion of this project being in the best interest of anyone other than the developer himself is BS. I certainly agree with you about NY's laws. I don't necessarily disagree with your disparaging of the developer either. But I don't understand the rest. How often does any developer build what's in the "best interest" of anyone but his or self? It's just a weird standard that isn't applied to anyone else. It's like all these stupid polls asking if people "support" the project? WTF does that mean? I'm a pretty secular guy- I wouldn't say I "support" the project. I don't even think I "support" most of what get's built in NYC. How many people "support" the ugly trump SoHo? I guess it's interesting to know how many people are offended by it- that at least highlights that this is nothing more than a debate about good taste and feelings.
September 9, 201014 yr Now that's more like it. Maybe the profits they make from 'such a controversial, complicated development' - which don't forget is funded by 'mysterious' sources - will allow them to fix some guys roof. Or maybe they should have just asked the financiers of the GZM to redirect their funding to some guys roof in Washington Heights. I'm sure they could've sold them on that. I still don't get your complaint, though. You don't want the mosque there, yet you want it well-built and free of any code violations that may close it down? Seems like crocadile tears if you ask me... The developer is neglecting many of their other duties and properties, and pushing forward a controversial project instead. No crocodile tears from me, the developer is the hypocrite here. OK. Good to hear that you will be on board with this project once he attends to his other properties. Or... maybe that doesn't change your opinion one bit, hence the crocadile tears.
September 9, 201014 yr I doubt many people in NYC were impressed with that NY Post article. How many people in NYC live in a place with code violations or prospective ones? Millions? I could live with a vertical crack running up my wall (they're usually not that serious) if it meant money being knocked off the rent. If they care so much about code violations at the NY Post, they wouldn't have just singled that guy out. I saw a sign on a bus in Manhattan that said 1 out of 4 people in NYC rely on Food Banks. I have a feeling it's pretty common for people in the city to have to put up with code violations.
September 9, 201014 yr ^ No, NY's laws are already way too oppressive and the cause of many unnecessary costs and wasted time. I've never once argued anything should be done by the city or state to stop this, I'm just painting the picture that this developer is an attention whoring deadbeat, and that any notion of this project being in the best interest of anyone other than the developer himself is BS. I certainly agree with you about NY's laws. I don't necessarily disagree with your disparaging of the developer either. But I don't understand the rest. How often does any developer build what's in the "best interest" of anyone but his or self? It's just a weird standard that isn't applied to anyone else. It's like all these stupid polls asking if people "support" the project? WTF does that mean? I'm a pretty secular guy- I wouldn't say I "support" the project. I don't even think I "support" most of what get's built in NYC. How many people "support" the ugly trump SoHo? I guess it's interesting to know how many people are offended by it- that at least highlights that this is nothing more than a debate about good taste and feelings. The developer (and everyone defending it in any argument) keeps calling it a “community center” and there was an article posted awhile ago in which the developer talks about how he wants to give to the community and that’s why he’s doing the project. I don’t expect him to come out and say “I’m doing this because I want my name in the paper, and I’m an asshole who likes to stir up trouble,” but that is the truth, hence my arguments here.
September 9, 201014 yr Interesting tidbit about the pointless public opinion polling on this subject. Residents of NY State and NYC oppose the GZM. Residents of Manhattan do not. Can anyone confirm? Also, is it not true that the 'GZM' would, ironically, not even be visible from ground zero? Finally, it should be noted that the "Developer" of this project is not any one individual, but rather a nonprofit entity called Park51.
September 9, 201014 yr ^All the articles I’ve been posting have been building the case. On a related note, it would appear The Donald agrees with me: Donald Trump Offers to Buy "Ground Zero" Mosque http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/09/09/donald_trump_offers_to_buy_ground_zero_mosque_site.php#more It'll be interesting to see if the developer would rather attention whore or line his pockets.
September 9, 201014 yr ^You should find the clip of Trump on Letterman sometime recently- the two of them really go at it. Interesting tidbit about the pointless public opinion polling on this subject. Residents of NY State and NYC oppose the GZM. Residents of Manhattan do not. Can anyone confirm? Here's a write-up of a NYTimes poll http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/nyregion/03poll.html?scp=2&sq=Poll&st=cse I think the poll questions were crap for the reason I mentioned earlier, but even from this lousy poll, you can say that about half of all NYers oppose the project and less than half of Manhattanites oppose it. The mosque/community center probably polls better than the 15 Penn Plaza tower project, but there is lots of real opposition. At the end of the day, it's just been such a depressing episode. The controversy isn't a political question, because there is no public policy that can legally stop the project. It's like asking everyone running for office what they think of "The Last Temptation of Christ". It's just a matter of taste and offense. The earliest opposition (Abe Foxman and the like) honestly seemed interested in persuading the developers to move the project by appealing, civilly (and misguidedly, IMHO), to "sensitivities." Since then, it's just be a sh*t show. Yelling at people and directly assaulting their religion, like Newt and many of the protesters, forces them into a corner. That strain of attackers are either morons (if they really think that's going to change minds) or disingenuous publicity whores, or both.
September 9, 201014 yr Depressing episode indeed - Fla. minister cancels burning of Qurans on 9/11 GAINESVILLE, Fla. – The leader of a tiny church on Thursday backed off his threat to burn the Quran, saying he gave up the plan in exchange for a deal to move a planned Islamic center and mosque away from New York's ground zero. The imam planning the center, however, quickly denied any such deal. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/quran_burning
September 10, 201014 yr excellent column! :clap: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/starting_to_say_no_hUz9VY1Py5KvOgrU36plDL Starting to say 'no' Demanding truly moderate Islam By ANDREW C. McCARTHY Last Updated: 2:50 AM, September 9, 2010 Posted: 12:12 AM, September 9, 2010 wow, this column certainly seemed to hit a raw nerve with some here. Just out of curiosity, and because admittedly I'm not an expert on the topic, which of Andrew McCarthy's assertions are not based in fact? http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
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