Trump Offers to Buy Out Islamic Center Investor

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704644404575482093330879912.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond

^Oh man, don't make me read it again.  From memory, it didn't really assert anything, it was just a rant: the ungrateful Muslims (all of whom are radical extremists) irrationally resent us so now we get to resent them and how dare "the elites" [cute for a Columbia educated former AUSA] tell us we can't.

 

EDIT: I should add, I do think there are rational arguments people voice in opposition to the project (though I disagree with them and think people go overboard acting on their opposition), but this column is not one of them.  It's just a sloppy grievance meant to inflame others who feel aggrieved.

Trust me, EVD... the only one that article impacted in any way was you.  It's petty and small-minded drivel only intended to impact a very specific targeted audience.

 

^^Where is the right-wing uproar over Trump proposing to fund the terrorists???

^^Well I guess it was a "rant" insofar as any opinion that's strongly expressed is a rant, but the broader theme remains: where are all the "moderate" Islamic voices (we keep hearing about) condemning the actions of extremists?  The writer's "grievance" is with the intolerance and hypocrisy of Islam with anyone who dares to speak out on its tactics and goals, while demanding the tolerance and acceptance of others.

And what are Islam's 'tactics and goals' in your *cough* unbiased opinion?

^I'll let you figure it out. You're smart  :wink:

C'mon... don't be so shy EVD.  Do share.  Perhaps, to stay on topic, you could tie in how the GZM is all part of those plans and tactics.

C'mon... don't be so shy EVD.  Do share.  Perhaps, to stay on topic, you could tie in how the GZM is all part of those plans and tactics.

hmmmm...well, let me think about it. In the meantime, I look forward to more of your thoroughly "unbiased" opinions!

Seems like it's more about attention whoring and perhaps some other agenda, rather than money...

 

---

 

NY Mosque Investor Declines Trump's Buyout Offer

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=11596634

"This is just a cheap attempt to get publicity and get in the limelight," said Wolodymyr Starosolsky, a lawyer for the investor, Hisham Elzanaty.

 

I wonder if that lawyer realized how accurately he actually summed up his clients intentions?

I don't get it Ram, why would a developer want so much negative press? Because Muslims will perceive him as a hero for slapping America in the face? I don't think that worked.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100910/ap_on_re_us/quran_burning

 

The comments following this story are just downright frightening.... and that was AFTER Yahoo censored some of the most extreme content.  Now, I'm thoroughly convinced that proceeding with the Park51 project is, in a way, necessary.  We are in trouble as a country if this hate-filled crowd is taught that their intolerable behavior can be rewarded.  I do feel somewhat sorry for that crowd though, as it seems that the hate consumes them in a way similar to the way hate consumes most any radical. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100910/ap_on_re_us/quran_burning

 

The comments following this story are just downright frightening.... and that was AFTER Yahoo censored some of the most extreme content.  Now, I'm thoroughly convinced that proceeding with the Park51 project is, in a way, necessary.  We are in trouble as a country if this hate-filled crowd is taught that their intolerable behavior can be rewarded.  I do feel somewhat sorry for that crowd though, as it seems that the hate consumes them in a way similar to the way hate consumes most any radical. 

 

Unbelievable.  How dumb have we become as a nation?  How long will it take for these people to realize the blatent hypocrisy of their statements and beliefs? 

 

There were multiple people commenting that it's hypocritical that Muslims can burn the American flag but we can't burn "their book".  Have these people completed the 4th grade?  By burning the Quran you are insulting the entire Muslim world (including your Muslim neighbors) not just one country whose policies you disagree with.  What would happen if a Muslim congregation decided to hold a "burn the Bible day" in response to violence by Christian extremists? 

 

This entire debate just pisses me off because it makes the US look petty and childish.  How can all these people that are supporting the "war on terror" believe that it's ok to allow a church to burn the Quran?  This entire incident with the GZM and the book burning thing has done more damage to America's Muslim relations than anyone will ever know.  And it's all preventable...

Sadly, many muslims around the globe mis-percieve this small, Florida church's leader and followers as typical Americans.... much like many Americans mis-percieve small, violent factions in the Islamic world as typical muslims.  Ironic indeed.

^What’s ironic is the comparison between the two events, and how people can be so hypocritical in attacking one and defending the other.  The crazy pastor is completely within his legal bounds to burn Korans all day long if he wants, just as the developer is completely within his legal bounds to build a Mosque on the site by the WTC.  Both of those actions would, however, offend a whole bunch of people.  It takes quite a hypocrite to not take the same side on both of these issues, I just wish more people could see that.

^You really don't think that one's opinion about the underlying act matters at all?  You really think that anyone who opposed the Nazi march through Skokie but didn't think Ronald Reagan states' rights speech near Philadelphia was such a big deal is a hypocrite?

Ram.... my man - Are you honestly not able to differentiate between building a community center as an effort (misguided or not) to build bridges and burning a book as a blatant effort to burn (no pun intended) bridges?  I highly doubt it.  Don't be disingenuous in your argument.

 

Sure, both the construction of Park51 and the book burning 'offend' people... but two gay men kissing in public offends people as well.... lot's of people.  However, I am not going to suggest to the gay couple that they maintain a 'respectful distance' because some schmuck on the other side of the room is offended.... or even if most people in the room are offended.  On the other hand, my neighbor would be within his rights to hang a nazi flag on his front porch and you better believe I am going to say something.  Does that make me a hypocrite?

 

What IS analogous to burning the Koran in Florida is the idiots in Afghanistan (or wherever) who thought it would be best to burn an American flag in protest of the planned Koran burning.  If I was to defend that action, yet condemn the Florida pastor, then feel free to call me a hypocrite.

 

 

^You really don't think that one's opinion about the underlying act matters at all?  You really think that anyone who opposed the Nazi march through Skokie but didn't think Ronald Reagan states' rights speech near Philadelphia was such a big deal is a hypocrite?

 

No, one's opinion about the underlying act does not matter in determining whether it should be allowed or not.  You can't pick and choose what freedom of expression is and isn't permissible.

^^Sure you can.  The law does.  If it is an act intended to incite violence or has the unreasonable risk of inciting violence, then it is not a permissible freedom of expression.  You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre.  You can't yell "bomb" on an airplane.  You can't say anything to intentionally incite a riot.  It was this analysis precisely which made the case about flag burning so interesting from a legal standpoint.  But we are not talking about what is and is not permissible.... although the book burning is walking a thin line, especially considering that Secretary Gates even felt compelled to call this numbskull and let him know that his event would put American soldiers in added danger.

This entire situation with the pastor and this mosque is a total mess.Even though both sides are well within their right to their respective actions, I find both ideas, the mosque and buring of the Koran, in bad taste and dis-respectful.

 

That's your opinion and your entitled to it.... but can you not see a difference in the intent driving the two actions (putting aside speculative conspiracy theories, of course)?  I also have yet to hear a rational explanation as to why the mosque is "dis-respectful".  Dis-respectful to whom?  The non-muslim victims of 9/11?  I guess we are getting back to the question of what would be a "respectful distance".... whatever that means.

^You really don't think that one's opinion about the underlying act matters at all?  You really think that anyone who opposed the Nazi march through Skokie but didn't think Ronald Reagan states' rights speech near Philadelphia was such a big deal is a hypocrite?

 

No, one's opinion about the underlying act does not matter in determining whether it should be allowed or not.  You can't pick and choose what freedom of expression is and isn't permissible.

 

Nobody (here) is arguing whether or not either should be allowed.  We're arguing whether it's OK not to care about some legal things that offend people but strongly oppose others.  Ram argues that it's not OK- in order to avoid hypocrisy, one either has to oppose all legal acts that offend or none.

 

So Ram thinks, for example, that if you oppose the Mosque, you definitely have to oppose the flying of confederate flags  (that would reveal some interesting polling numbers!).

 

EDIT, or for something more local, maybe I should say that Ram seems to think that mosque opponents must also support the retirement of Chief Wahoo.

The entire debate is getting blurred.  A Muslim group wants to restore an old building to house a community center which would include a mosque.  Is holding a "burn the Koran day" really a proportionate response?  Really?  This pastor is not protesting the mosque, he is protesting the entire Muslim faith.  He is well within his legal rights to do so (with a fire permit of course, which he does not have), but I am well within my rights to tell him he's an absolute fool to think that what he's doing helps anyone.

 

The burning of the Koran is done out of hate and fear.  The building of a Muslim cultural center is done out of.... anyone?  Maybe love, necessity, respect.  If anyone tells me the building of the GZM is done out of hate because it will be a terrorist recruiting tool I will punch you square in the nose.  Just hard enough to make you cry and realize you're an idiot.  The generalizations of the Muslim faith must stop.  It's out of control.

Well... I certainly try do my best to make sure my personal opinions have a rational explanation.  To each his own. 

I have no interest in giving the benefit of the doubt to that Hamas sympathiser and his motivations for putting in a mosque right dab in the middle of where major pieces of the plane engines fell..  Legally, I suppose it's within his rights to build the center just as it is for the Klan to march in Skokie or for NAMBLA members to have annual conventions or for the pastor to burn the Koran.  Morally, they are all dispecable acts.

 

And another thing.  This idea of moderate international Islam is ridiculous.  Show me one Islamist country where women are not treated as glorified slaves.  Even the Emerates possess misogynic laws that are just appaling

^That makes more sense.

 

I have no interest in giving the benefit of the doubt to that Hamas sympathiser and his motivations for putting in a mosque right dab in the middle of where major pieces of the plane engines fell.. 

 

If that is your rationale, perhaps this will change your mind?

 

Cleric - “I condemn everyone and anyone who commits acts of terrorism, and Hamas has committed acts of terrorism.”

 

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/09/imam-feisal-abdul-rauf-ground-zero-mosque.html

 

 

And another thing.  This idea of moderate international Islam is ridiculous.  Show me one Islamist country where women are not treated as glorified slaves.  Even the Emerates possess misogynic laws that are just appaling

I believe most Muslims around the world would like to live within the framework of a society that is culturally and religiously moderate, but the most extremist elements of Islam (who are in far greater numbers than anyone of us would like to believe) have taken power by force and have everyone in those countries living in total fear. Combine this with the absolutely dictatorial forms of government that have been in place for decades in the Middle East, and you have a toxic stew of repression, subjugation and total lack of freedom of expression.

Perhaps a lot of Germans were quitely infuriated with the Nazis who were smaller in number.  Should we have just gone to war with these Nazi 'extremists' so not to villify all Germans?

 

 

 

 

And another thing. This idea of moderate international Islam is ridiculous. Show me one Islamist country where women are not treated as glorified slaves. Even the Emerates possess misogynic laws that are just appaling

I believe most Muslims around the world would like to live within the framework of a society that is culturally and religiously moderate, but the most extremist elements of Islam (who are in far greater numbers than anyone of us would like to believe) have taken power by force and have everyone in those countries living in total fear. Combine this with the absolutely dictatorial forms of government that have been in place for decades in the Middle East, and you have a toxic stew of repression, subjugation and total lack of freedom of expression.

 

 

What makes you believe that?

Perhaps a lot of Germans were quitely infuriated with the Nazis who were smaller in number.   Should we have just gone to war with these Nazi 'extremists' so not to villify all Germans?

 

 

 

 

One third of all of Germany's elected representatives voted Hitler for Cancellor.  Only about one third opposed him, mainly the Communists. 

Perhaps a lot of Germans were quitely infuriated with the Nazis who were smaller in number.   Should we have just gone to war with these Nazi 'extremists' so not to villify all Germans?

 

I don't even understand what this is supposed to mean.  Do you think we're "at war" with the world's Muslims?

 

And another thing.  This idea of moderate international Islam is ridiculous.  Show me one Islamist country where women are not treated as glorified slaves.  Even the Emerates possess misogynic laws that are just appaling

I believe most Muslims around the world would like to live within the framework of a society that is culturally and religiously moderate, but the most extremist elements of Islam (who are in far greater numbers than anyone of us would like to believe) have taken power by force and have everyone in those countries living in total fear. Combine this with the absolutely dictatorial forms of government that have been in place for decades in the Middle East, and you have a toxic stew of repression, subjugation and total lack of freedom of expression.

 

 

What makes you believe that?

well, I would like to believe that. Otherwise, how do we explain the relative silence by so many who are purportedly not in agreement with the most extremist elements? It's more frightening to think so many hundreds of millions are in tacit agreement with them, and of course the fear of torture and death is a great motivating factor to do nothing.

 

I don't know if we're in war with the world's Muslims.  They, or at least a huge contingent, certaintly act like we are

 

And another thing.  This idea of moderate international Islam is ridiculous.  Show me one Islamist country where women are not treated as glorified slaves.  Even the Emerates possess misogynic laws that are just appaling

I believe most Muslims around the world would like to live within the framework of a society that is culturally and religiously moderate, but the most extremist elements of Islam (who are in far greater numbers than anyone of us would like to believe) have taken power by force and have everyone in those countries living in total fear. Combine this with the absolutely dictatorial forms of government that have been in place for decades in the Middle East, and you have a toxic stew of repression, subjugation and total lack of freedom of expression.

 

 

What makes you believe that?

well, I would like to believe that. Otherwise, how do we explain the relative silence by so many who are purportedly not in agreement with the most extremist elements? It's more frightening to think so many hundreds of millions are in tacit agreement with them, and of course the fear of torture and death is a great motivating factor to do nothing.

 

 

A lot of them support terrorists for economic reasons, no? In Afganistan for instance, a lot of farmers don't want to harvest Opium and fund terrorism but the Taliban pays them double what they would make from any other crop. Then you have folks in Lebanon supporting Hezbollah because they provide a plethora of services from hospitals to food.

 

You have radicals but most of the world's Muslims are in fairly stable countries. Indonesia, India, Bangladesh, and Egypt all have more Muslims than Iran and Afganistan. Turkey and Morocco are both 99% Muslim.

 

http://islam.about.com/b/2009/04/06/most-muslims-in-the-world-live-in.htm

 

And back to Park51...

 

I heard an interesting interview with The Donald tonight.  He posed a conspiracy theory that, I have to admit, caught my ear for a minute.  I don't know how the ownership structure is set up, and I have read differing reports.  But The Donald was talking as if there was one definitive owner that he approached to buy the property outright, with a cash payment and 24 hour closing.  He says the guy bought this property for $4.8m last year and is 'open' to selling it.  The Donald allegedly offered him the purchase price +25% and to cover all costs to date.  But this 'developer' is allegedly thinking he can get $18-20m and turned down the offer on the spot.  The Donald then went on a rant about how this seems to have been the guy's plan all along... to create this controversy and then make a killing by selling it to someone with deep pockets who either wants the project to proceed or someone who wants to block it, or maybe even the city or state would step in and buy it to calm things down.  If so, he is a piece of sh!t and a master of the free market.

 

That said, I'm not so sure The Donald has good information himself.  I am fairly certain that the property is owned by a nonprofit entity called Park51, not some individual looking to (and capable of) make a profit off the sale of the property.

How many people know what a Muslim is or could point out one if he/she were walking down the street?

How many people know what a Muslim is or could point out one if he/she were walking down the street?

 

What kind of a question is that?

Well... I 'believe' MTS is getting at an issue that is often overlooked.  When you say Muslim to "Real Americans".... say, from Lynchburg, Va..... what is the stereotype?  It is that of a woman dressed in full garb and a man beating her with a 'be good' stick.  It is a terrorist with wild eyes, full scruffy beard, and sweat dripping from his forehead because he has 10 pounds of C-4 stapped to his waist.  It certainly is nothing like my friend Mazen who I have known since I was 4, is a doctor at a major medical institution, who's wife unquestionably 'wears the pants' in the family, and who was born and raised here like so many of us.  Or perhaps my friend Ferris who nobodoy on first glance would assume is anything other than a WASP, yet was born in Syria, came here at a very young age, and is fully 'Americanized.'  I would say Mazen and Ferris are more typical of 'American-Muslims' than the stereotype.  However, these radical fringe groups want to potray people who do not curse the thought of Park51 as somehow standing up for the rights of the terrorist, wife-beater, not my fellow American citizens who happen to be muslim and have the right to practice their religion wherever I am allowed (legally or socially) to practice mine.   

Hts121, exactly.  Or I could add my X's family.  His mother is Eqyptian.

 

So again, just walking down the street, you can't tell a person religion, just like you cannot tell if a person is HIV+!

 

So again, how many people know what a muslim is or can spot one?

Hts121, exactly.  Or I could add my X's family.  His mother is Eqyptian.

she wasn't one of The Bangles. Was she?? lol

The Bangles - Walk Like An Egyptian

And back to Park51...

 

I heard an interesting interview with The Donald tonight.  He posed a conspiracy theory that, I have to admit, caught my ear for a minute.  I don't know how the ownership structure is set up, and I have read differing reports.  But The Donald was talking as if there was one definitive owner that he approached to buy the property outright, with a cash payment and 24 hour closing.  He says the guy bought this property for $4.8m last year and is 'open' to selling it.  The Donald allegedly offered him the purchase price +25% and to cover all costs to date.  But this 'developer' is allegedly thinking he can get $18-20m and turned down the offer on the spot.  The Donald then went on a rant about how this seems to have been the guy's plan all along... to create this controversy and then make a killing by selling it to someone with deep pockets who either wants the project to proceed or someone who wants to block it, or maybe even the city or state would step in and buy it to calm things down.  If so, he is a piece of sh!t and a master of the free market.

 

That said, I'm not so sure The Donald has good information himself.  I am fairly certain that the property is owned by a nonprofit entity called Park51, not some individual looking to (and capable of) make a profit off the sale of the property.

 

I think this is an interesting possibility, along the lines of what I've been thinking (ie the whole thing was just attention whoring).  Trying to sell at a huge profit makes perfect sense as a motive.

 

As far as Park51, it is an LLC, and I don't think New York allows non-profit LLC's.  Somebody could stand to make a huge chunk of change, primarily the guy Trumps letter was addressed to (the main donor for the project).

^Free market at its best... I suppose.  Thus, I would call it profiteering, not attention whoring.  If true, I doubt he wants much attention at all... just $$$

 

Hts121, exactly.  Or I could add my X's family.  His mother is Eqyptian.

she wasn't one of The Bangles. Was she?? lol

The Bangles - Walk Like An Egyptian

 

family guy: Thats not funny

Hts121, exactly.  Or I could add my X's family.  His mother is Eqyptian.

she wasn't one of The Bangles. Was she?? lol

The Bangles - Walk Like An Egyptian

 

ROFLMAO!

This is a source that is generally pretty spot on when making accusations like this. This should also get the discussion back on to the development issues regarding this project.  It again reinforces what I’ve been saying: something fishy is going on.  It takes it to a whole new level, almost a conspiracy!

 

http://queenscrap.blogspot.com/2010/09/lets-discuss-mosque.html

So.... what exactly is Bloomberg's motivation?  Money?  Is he a secret muslim man like Obama?

And the "conspiracy" grows....  :-o

 

Muslim summit planned over NYC Islamic center

 

NEW YORK – A proposed Islamic center near ground zero is slowly being embraced by some Muslims who initially were indifferent about the plan, partly in response to a sense that their faith is under attack.

 

A summit of U.S. Muslim organizations is planned for Saturday and Sunday in New York City to address both the project and a rise in anti-Muslim sentiments and rhetoric that has accompanied the nationwide debate over the project.

 

.......................................

 

But Shaik Ubaid of the Islamic Leadership Council of Metropolitan New York, one of the groups organizing the gathering, said he has a growing sense that some American Muslims who initially had trepidation are now throwing their support behind the plan.

 

"Once it became a rallying cry for extremists, we had no choice but to stand with Feisal (Abdul) Rauf," he said, referring to the New York City imam who has been leading the drive for the center.

 

Groups scheduled to participate in the summit include the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Circle of North America, the Muslim Alliance of North America and the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_nyc_mosque

 

Worst part about this is I hear they are using the "White Man's" conference room.... you know, the one where "the Man" meets and conspires to hold the Black Man down.  Do they have no decency? 

How do I add a poll to this thread?

here's why i am outraged about this situation, the developers want to tear down a perfectly sweet old cast-iron (?) building!  :x

 

these shots are from yesterday --

unfortunately as you can see the police have to waste their time and my tax money to be here  :whip:

 

 

well its about all topped out and looks shiny and sharp -- these are iphone shots from yesterday

 

western view from city hall park

 

 

couldn't resist!  :wink:

 

^ hoo ha in front of the bar -- hmm, maybe its a bar for sporting art students?!!  :laugh:

 

another of the southern facing/value-engineered flat side

 

just to the eastside, gets its gehry swerve going

 

 

 

finally, far as i know this is the only pic that shows the view from it's namesake beekman st (in the seaport)!

 

 

 

I like it, but I'm not overly impressed with it.  It looks like it would fit into Museum Park in Chicago nicely.

not only is this tower way too tall for its location, the base is so bland, boxy and incongruous with the rest of the building (what were they thinking??), you would never guess that this was a Gehry (well, maybe that's for the best after all! LOL).

^ tooo taaallllll?!!?!!  :-o  :laugh:

 

the base is not gehry. its a public school designed by the same hacks that design all new public schools these days. the school base was a trade-off for the ratners being allowed to build the tower. it's much needed as new downtown residential is booming.