What comes to mind when you hear the word(s) Dayton or Dayton, Ohio?

 

Also- what does Dayton mean to you?

 

Do you see it in a positive light or negative? Do you think Dayton has unfulfilled potential?

What do you think Dayton is doing right or doing wrong?

 

I've lived in Dayton on & off (mostly on) for about 39 years.

My husband and I moved from here in 1971 and lived in several different places until 1986 when we moved back here from New Jersey.

I've been here ever since.

Sometimes I feel like I am stuck here. Sometimes I feel like I want to leave.

But then there are things I like about Dayton. I won't list them for now.

I feel though that with the pull-out of so many businesses, etc. that Dayton is headed in the wrong direction.

I pray that we can and will make a comeback.

Just a few thoughts.

When I was younger, I used to think, "Suckhole of Ohio."  Now, I'm sort of drawn to it.  I'd never live there, mind you.  But bands like GbV and the Breeders paint nice pictures of it, and I kind of appreciate the beauty of a crappy town.

When I think of Dayton I think of "stagnant". I don't have a negative perception of the city, and in fact I actually really appreciate Dayton, but it just doesn't come across as a place where a lot happens. 

I had never been to Dayton until visiting it just for the Air Force base on the way back from a family California trip in the 80s.  I suppose I still really didn't visit Dayton at that point.  My dad had told me its basically like Akron but maybe a little more industrial.  So analyzing the demographics it roughly appears like that.  My assumption was a low key city that is happy go lucky with very little crime and a well managed downtown that seemed inviting to all. 

 

My first few days I arrived in the middle of a bleak March day 5 years ago to work downtown, I was surprised at how flat it was and how old and rundown many of the buildings were - the Arcade area in particular.  I was unimpressed with the sprawl and all the Malls.  It took me awhile to get my bearings and reinterpret my expectations. 

I know better now. I've figured out most of the cool places to go and look forward to returning for some Marion's pizza and hitting up El Meson, and hanging out in Belmont and going to Dorothy Lane stores.  Also Oregon District is pretty nice.  Its definitely more like Akron in some ways than I was expecting.  Akron is also known for visitors having a hard time to get around and unfold for them.

Wright Pat always comes to mind when I hear Dayton. If it wasn't for the Air Force forcing me to go there once a month I would probably never visit at my own will. I have nothing against Dayton, its just Cincy is so much closer and has a whole lot more in my opinion.

 

BBiebigheiser, cant say I blame you for coming back to Ohio from Jersey lol.

I just work here.

 

I unfortunatly have a tendancy to keep comparing this place to Louisville, and it's just not a fair comparison.  Except for one thing. Dayton has the better suburbs.  Suburbia here is less trashy and ill-planned and the suburbs often are real "places", with a small town or village at their core.  I think that is the best thing about Dayton, really, is the suburbia/small town "modern Mayberry" thing.  And some of the countryside around, like along the rivers or creeks (say, Bellbrook/Spring Valley, Germantown, Englewood, etc) is nice, not your stereotypical midwest deadening flatness.  In some ways and in some places you forget you are in the Midwest and think you migt be further east somewhere.

 

The sad and infuriating thing for me is how the old city is being trashed and abandonded.  I just can't watch this urban trainwreck anymore! I am over it.  This old building stock in irreplacable and Dayton has so much of it.  The old Dayton neighborhoods could be SO cool if there was a change in heart somehow and a return to the city.  Then you'd have more of a Louisville and less than a wannabe Detroit.

 

But bands like GbV and the Breeders paint nice pictures of it....

 

Do they? I didnt know the place figured in their music.  GbV apparently is or was located here but they stopped performing locally back in the 1980s, aside from the very occasional show.  There is a local music scene and that is, ironically, how I first heard about Dayton (via promos for rock shows at Hara Arena on the FM rock radio in 1970s Louisville, and again via a bluegrass radio show fron San Mateo CA, that dedicated an entire afternoon to the Dayton & vicinity bluegrass scene of yore).

 

I am, or used to be, a music fan, and that was what made Dayton bearable.  The local public radio (and the old WOXY) did a lot featuring of local music scenes, which meant trad music, blues, etc as well as the alt/indy stuff.  And there are at least two excellent live music venues at Canal Street Tavern and Gillys, supplmented by a few more now, like OE and the Dirt Collective, and the "house scene" that is quasi-underground (live shows in houses, not house music).  Used to be the "donut shop scene", where people would get up bluegrass and gospel jam sessions later at night.  And there are some bar-based jam session going on too, for the trad/old-time styles.  This musical thang is really Dayton's strong suite, but that only works if yr a fan, or play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wright Pat always comes to mind when I hear Dayton. If it wasn't for the Air Force forcing me to go there once a month I would probably never visit at my own will. I have nothing against Dayton, its just Cincy is so much closer and has a whole lot more in my opinion.

 

BBiebigheiser, cant say I blame you for coming back to Ohio from Jersey lol.

 

Well it was my husband's idea to move back to Dayton actually. I liked New Jersey (except for the high taxes & cost of living). I miss it too (New Jersey -not the high taxes and cost of living). But anyway...

Oddly enough it was his idea to move back here and to move in next to my parents of all things.  Go figure!

Sad to say- my husband passed away 10 years ago this past April. We haven't lived next to my parents for many years. We moved across town in 1996. Also my mom moved to NC in 1991 and my father passed away in 1992. My mom died in 2005.

But I'm getting off the subject.

I do feel sometimes like I'm stuck here. I can't really afford to move. Even a move to a different area of town or to another city in Ohio is kind of out of the question for me right now. Long story.

What really stinks is there's no work in this town. Not many opportunities. That's how I see it anyway. *sigh*

After being away from Jersey for a couple of years I kinda miss it. Not for Jersey itself, but for its close proximity to NYC, Philly, DC, Balitmore, etc. There were so many things to do just a short train ride away.

After being away from Jersey for a couple of years I kinda miss it. Not for Jersey itself, but for its close proximity to NYC, Philly, DC, Balitmore, etc. There were so many things to do just a short train ride away.

 

I miss New Jersey for those reasons and also for the fact that I have some family there. My dad was born in NYC but grew up in Morristown, NJ.

I have a half-sister who lives in Randolph and a niece in Newton. I had another half-sister who lived in Blairstown but she died in 2006 of lung cancer.

I thought New Jersey was an interesting place to live. Lot's history there.

I'd love to go back and check out some of the historical areas such as Jockey Hollow and also areas where my ancestors lived.

>> What comes to mind when you hear the word(s) Dayton or Dayton, Ohio?

 

"Home". The "origin point", for me.

 

>> Also- what does Dayton mean to you?

 

Bitterness central.

Land of missed opportunities.

The inheritor of a proud industrial legacy that was squandered and allowed to diminish for a period of 50+ years.

Angry, mean people clinging to dated provincialism for an over the hill place.

Home of "zero sum" thinking, as in, that guy needs to get less so I can get more.

Hopelessness and despair.

Rampant and compulsive repudiation of the past - through urban renewal, highway construction, teardowns, etc.

A rootless place - no "there" there. Nobody stays around for more than 3 generations or so.

 

>> Do you see it in a positive light or negative?

 

Currently mostly negative. The past - proud and glorious - the precursor to Silicon Valley and similar boom regions.

 

>> Do you think Dayton has unfulfilled potential?

 

I have been trying to figure that one out for 20+ years! I honestly don't know. We have, for instance, a great undervalued housing stock - but relatively few jobs for people to work at when they live in that housing. We have lots of water and a mild climate. But no demand for those things that can translate into a better economy.

 

>> What do you think Dayton is doing right or doing wrong?

 

I have no idea what Dayton could do to bootstrap itself into even economic "averageness" again. Sorry.

>> What comes to mind when you hear the word(s) Dayton or Dayton, Ohio?

 

"Home". The "origin point", for me.

 

>> Also- what does Dayton mean to you?

 

Bitterness central.

Land of missed opportunities.

The inheritor of a proud industrial legacy that was squandered and allowed to diminish for a period of 50+ years.

Angry, mean people clinging to dated provincialism for an over the hill place.

Home of "zero sum" thinking, as in, that guy needs to get less so I can get more.

Hopelessness and despair.

Rampant and compulsive repudiation of the past - through urban renewal, highway construction, teardowns, etc.

A rootless place - no "there" there. Nobody stays around for more than 3 generations or so.

 

>> Do you see it in a positive light or negative?

 

Currently mostly negative. The past - proud and glorious - the precursor to Silicon Valley and similar boom regions.

 

>> Do you think Dayton has unfulfilled potential?

 

I have been trying to figure that one out for 20+ years! I honestly don't know. We have, for instance, a great undervalued housing stock - but relatively few jobs for people to work at when they live in that housing. We have lots of water and a mild climate. But no demand for those things that can translate into a better economy.

 

>> What do you think Dayton is doing right or doing wrong?

 

I have no idea what Dayton could do to bootstrap itself into even economic "averageness" again. Sorry.

 

Yes- this is basically how I feel.

Pretty depression, huh?

I just can't help feeling that Dayton did (and possibly does) have potential but the "so called leaders" missed the boat of the point or whatever.

I'm not exactly sure what went wrong, how it went went wrong & just when it went wrong, but it did.

Such a shame. :(

As far as what can be done now: I think Dayton has to define a fairly humble, realizable regional goal of economic redevelopment with re-industrialization (yes, I mean that) as a key goal. There are simply no local leaders with vision who want to hang around and build up Dayton. We've got no John Pattersons. They all want to move to Silicon Valley or Atlanta.

 

My mother grew up in the early 20th century and basically was "in love" with the old Dayton of the John Patterson/Delco era. What she told me was that goodwill was one of the key driving elements of the early boom years. When Dayton was built up as an industrial power in the early 20th century, it was into a vacuum. So there were tons of opportunities to differentiate Dayton as, say, the machine shop capital of the world as it was at one time.

 

I personally think that what happened to Dayton is as follows in a nutshell:

 

- Early boom through the war years.

 

- Postwar prosperity and comfort.

 

- Unions - and locals - becoming more entitled-thinking. IE, having a good GM job turns from a good thing into an entitlement.

 

- Oil shocks of 73 and 79 which gives small foreign car makers a beachhead for the first time into the US auto market. Combined with expansion of new technologies (IE, integrated circuits) that threaten local companies like NCR and Monarch Marking and similar places that were sort of the "computers" of the 19th century.

 

- Locals and local leaders at this point believe Dayton's uniqueness and past prosperity are a birthright - figure that things will "bounce back".

 

- Continued erosion through 80s, 90s and present day.

 

I analogize what has happened to Dayton over the years as what happens to many rich families. Grandpa made the family fortune, and the kids never got exposed to the hard knocks or personal trials that give them the wisdom to be able to continue to build up the fortune. All they know how to do is spend.

 

By the third generation after the founding father, the family fortune has become a small trust fund, pretty much evaporated.

 

That, to me, is Dayton's progression over the period 1960-2010 in a nutshell.

 

For this "squandered opportunity" angle I still cling to the example of Lexis-Nexis. They were in a prime position to exploit the internet in 1995 through 2000. Instead, mere college kids in California operating on out of pocket money figured it out on their own (Google, Yahoo.) Lexis-Nexis is a key example of a local economic player with absolutely no vision, just protecting its market.

By the third generation after the founding father, the family fortune has become a small trust fund, pretty much evaporated.

 

You basically described America in general...

 

The important difference being (and I forgot this point): Dayton became an industrial and technological monoculture: car parts, tires, cash registers. The local business culture revolved around supplication to Delco, GM and "the cash."

 

Monocultures are highly vulnerable to disruption. I think that what made Dayton great also lead to its downfall. If you look at any region that has continued to prosper in a period spanning more than 50 years, it is almost always commercially diversified.

 

I mean, look at your own sig - "Glass City". Well, and Willys Jeep. Sort of a monoculture in Toledo. Same basic thing.

 

Whereas the entire US is not a monoculture in any sense of the word.

 

>> Also- what does Dayton mean to you?

 

Bitterness central.

Land of missed opportunities.

The inheritor of a proud industrial legacy that was squandered and allowed to diminish for a period of 50+ years.

Angry, mean people clinging to dated provincialism for an over the hill place.

Home of "zero sum" thinking, as in, that guy needs to get less so I can get more.

Hopelessness and despair.

Rampant and compulsive repudiation of the past - through urban renewal, highway construction, teardowns, etc.

A rootless place - no "there" there. Nobody stays around for more than 3 generations or so.

 

Some of this sounds like another poster here, who also used to comment at my blog: "TheDonald".  Interesting to read the similar observations.

 

@@@

 

Being a history buff and interested in business and economic history what happened with Dayton was that this was a fairly entrepeneurial city, where there was early-on an interest in manufacturing.  It may be difficult to believe this but Dayton was more of a manufacturing center than Louisville during the antebellum era.

 

The dominance of NCR and Delco obscures this as they were such huge employers (and probably drove the 20th century population growth).  There was a dominant employer in the 19th century, too, the Barney & Smith railroad car company.  But there was always a robust ecosystem of smaller firms making and processing things.  This continued into the 20th century, with new firms sprining up working in newer lines of business and new technologies (like electrical machinery)

 

There must have been a local network of angel investors and venture capitalists to fund these start-ups, too.  There had to be at least some access to start up capital to get these firms off the ground.

 

The modern problem is that though the local economy was robust enough  to shift between different types of manufacturing through history, it was always about "making things".  The end of or diminishing of manufacturing in the US Midwest means Dayton has lost its raison d' etre.  And people are wondering what, if anything, will replace it. 

 

Personally, I think if that entrepeneurial culture is still out there and some sort of informal network of startup finance is in-place, one will conitinue to see start ups of various sorts in the local economy, and some of them may become sucessful, turn a profit, grow, maybe turn into "gazelles", creating employment (there is some evidence this was happening).  So the economy will be more diversified, but made up of smaller and mid sized firms, not the giant mass-employers like NCR or GM.

 

 

BTW, there is a good documentary coming on HBO tonight, "The Last Truck", about the closure of the Moraine assembly plant.  Might be worth watching.  It gives the end of this chapter in local economic history national exposure.

 

 

Some of this sounds like another poster here, who also used to comment at my blog: "TheDonald".  Interesting to read the similar observations.

 

You are not far from the truth. :evil:

 

Your observations echo mine. I don't see the region becoming a powerhouse for any kind of intellectual property type concerns (IE, inventions, computers, software, biomedical.) There's just no concerted base of such business interests here.

 

And this is not a cerebral area. People here are at their best when they are in the role of "doers", much more than thinkers. I have worked at enough crappy and misguided software companies that tried to make a go of it in the local area to know that brainwork innovation is not in the genetics of most managers around here. The capital goods and car businesses have pervaded the area too long for that to be viable.

 

One problem that Dayton has is that just about all new business you read about here is almost always at the disconnected, microscopic stage. Some small factory, some software entrepreneur, some AFB contractor with a certain angle, etc. There are people around here who really WANT to live and settle here who are trying to make things happen, but there is simply no spark leading to a fire.

 

On another message board that I run, we recently debated the viability of "DIY" or small scale, retail-level green energy technology. All of the Obama green initiatives are about windmill farms and mega-huge investments in the hundreds of millions. Why couldn't Dayton become a hub for green and energy production technology that is sized for the average homeowner? Magazines like Popular Science and Pop Mechanix used to run articles in the 1970s about DIY energy systems like geothermal/solar heating supplement systems.

 

I just mean that, just as in the case of John Patterson, a visionary has to land in Dayton and decide that X is viable and that X should be based locally. That is about the only thing that I believe could lift Dayton out of its 30 year funk.

You are not far from the truth. :evil:

 

Oh!

 

@@@@@@

 

 

....but it just doesn't come across as a place where a lot happens.

 

It's funny reading this because I've been posting pix here under various "Jeff" handles since 2005, and some of those posts had pix of various live music things, art shows, and festivals.  Part of the reason I did that is to show that things do happen in Dayton.

 

And here I read a post like this.  I might as well be talking to a stove.

 

 

 

 

 

....but it just doesn't come across as a place where a lot happens.

 

It's funny reading this because I've been posting pix here under various "Jeff" handles since 2005, and some of those posts had pix of various live music things, art shows, and festivals.  Part of the reason I did that is to show that things do happen in Dayton.

 

And here I read a post like this.  I might as well be talking to a stove.

 

Let us be perfectly clear here. Socially, if you find the right groups/cliques, Dayton is wonderful.

 

Culturally Dayton is "up there" for having a vibrant counterculture scene.

 

Great neighborhoods. Great housing stock.

 

Welcoming countryside not too distant.

 

IMO - Virtually EVERYTHING that is now the matter with Dayton comes down to failed and broken dreams, poverty and lack of opportunity.

 

Dayton doesn't come off as a place where a lot *economically* happens. I will cop to that. And new exurban developments like The Browne (sorry, The Greene) and Austin Rd. are sheer vulture economics at work.

I live in downtown Cleveland and I am continually bombarded by the local media about what a terrible place this is.  Occasionally (when I feel particularly strong or in need of a slap down, I'm not sure which) I will read some of the posts on Cleveland.com.  These posts usually refer to the total collapse of Cleveland and we should all leave before it is too late!!  That is why I have always enjoyed the more mature and informed discussions found on UrbanOhio. 

 

I have found the discussion on this particular topic fascinating because I know the people here are not idiots and are very well informed.  However this line of discussion could easily be placed on Cleveland.com if you replace Dayton with Cleveland.

 

My question is, are things really that bad in Dayton?  All cities in Ohio have experienced a decline the last few years (decades?) pertaining to manufacturing and population.  Specifically, how is Dayton different from Cleveland?

I just thought of an analog to Dayton.

 

Just as persons without computer or knowledge worker skills have been slowly but inexorably cut out of the economy over the last 20 years -

 

So, too, has the greater Dayton area as an economic player.

 

The Dayton area is not "good with" tech entrepreneurship. I never worked with a Dayton tech company that wasn't somehow stupidly run and abusive. The managements at most software shops in Dayton don't "get" software, online culture or how programmers work.

 

I mean - I probably have tunnel vision here - but it's my livelihood - and it's a pattern that I have seen.

 

So, Dayton is the metro area equivalent of a poor or older person without computer skills. Cut out of the action. Poverty stricken.

 

So, I think in order to rebuild its economy, again I say that Dayton must look to a renaissance of manufacturing.

 

People here will work with their hands. People in a lot of regions won't. I'd say capitalize on that.

My question is, are things really that bad in Dayton?  All cities in Ohio have experienced a decline the last few years (decades?) pertaining to manufacturing and population.  Specifically, how is Dayton different from Cleveland?

 

The city itself is having major problems with abandonments and vacancy, and now vandalism via tagging.  Things have always been run-down and shabby but they seem to be getting worse.  As I've mentioned Ive been snapshooting in the city since 2005, and have noticed things get more and more dicey. 

 

As for the economy I suspect the employment situation here has been tight since the 1970s, but in the past ten years thousands of blue-collar jobs have been lost with the disappearance of GM and Delphi.  This was not a dramatic Youngstown-style collapse, but more of a slowmotion one. Make no mistake, the loss of these jobs is a big blow as they paid a living wage and had health benefits.  Dayton had managed to keep a blue collar middle class into modern times, and now it is gone, at least for the less skilled assembly workers.  This is a painful thing to see and it means downward economic mobility for thousands.

 

The recent loss of NCR to Georgia is now bringing the job scarcity issue to management/professional types. 

 

 

 

Actually, I thought abcsolutely nothing about Dayton, before I joined Urban Ohio. But Jeff's detailed posts over the years had really made it sound appealing to me.

 

Perhaps, Dayton should cast its lot with Cincinnati, and focus on being a key center in a region that is central to a huge chunk of the American population.

While not Dayton proper, I was in the Fairborn/Beaver Creek area this past weekend for the first time and it wasn't bad.  Seemed like most of Ohio suburbs around a sizable city.  Had a university, cul-de-sac housing, bunch of the same old stores and a nice park system (Ohio does parks well).  I just got a brief pass through Dayton itself and it didn't look bad, kinda like Akron, just a city.  I thought Wright State looked out of place and didn't look like it belonged there.  Though they did have a pretty sweet softball tournament. 

 

I probably wouldn't plan a day trip or weekend getaway there, but I would go back for functions and events. 

- Unions - and locals - becoming more entitled-thinking. IE, having a good GM job turns from a good thing into an entitlement.

 

Yes- I agree very much with this one.

My dad (God rest his soul) was a "Union Man" but I never saw that it did him any good. Maybe for a while but after he was "forced" to retire I never saw him get any help from the union and even after all the union dues he paid I don't think he received anything in return. Yet he continued to defend them.

He worked for Dayton Typographic which eventually went out of business.

 

I could go on and on about the problems with unions but I won't right now.

I think they started off well enough and with good intentions, but you know the saying about good intentions.

I could go on and on about the problems with unions but I won't right now.

I think they started off well enough and with good intentions, but you know the saying about good intentions.

 

Unions became thugs once they consolidated their power. Unions were also responsible for the weekend and the 40 hour work week standard. It would have been nice if some higher power could have said "ok, very nice, you improved social conditions, now please stop existing."

 

Relevant to Dayton, I remember watching TV news films about strikes when I was growing up. Basically these guys would get into the camera and start braying about how rich GM was and how entitled they were. Or they would act like employee stock options were filthy contamination. Basically they just spewed angry and ignorant sounding rants.

 

Generally I think that blue collar people are much smarter than most white collar people about being exploited. IE, you read about IT people who basically live at work or are forced to carry beepers or are forced to train their Indian replacements. The average wrench twisting blue collar type would laugh in the face of the average pasty-white IT guy who's cowering after being yelled at in his cubicle to work the weekend again for no extra pay.

 

But in Dayton and with the auto unions in particular the pushback was utterly out of balance. If those idiots had just chilled out in the 70s we might still have a viable domestic auto industry today.

I think of the University of Dayton.  being from Cleveland, I can recall a handfull of kids going to college there after high school.  I went down there once to visit a friend, and that was really the only time I have ever been there.  To be honest, I never even really drive through it, because to go south, I take 71 or 77.

Can someone please respond to my question posted earlier?  How is Dayton different from Cleveland or other Ohio cities for that matter?  I hear doom and gloom all the time.  How is this different?

 

....but it just doesn't come across as a place where a lot happens.

 

It's funny reading this because I've been posting pix here under various "Jeff" handles since 2005, and some of those posts had pix of various live music things, art shows, and festivals. Part of the reason I did that is to show that things do happen in Dayton.

 

And here I read a post like this. I might as well be talking to a stove.

 

 

 

 

 

Jeff, I appreciate those threads, and I'm pretty sure I have consistently commented on them.  What I meant by my comment wasn't that there was nothing to do, rather that the city as a whole seems to not get behind these sporatic events.  The art shows, parties, festivals, etc are cool and all, but you don't see a lot of a movement around them. 

 

Compared to Cincinnati (albeit not great at this either, but it's the same region), Dayton just seems to lack the gusto to turn events into a culture.  There are great art events in Dayton, but are there any art colonies like Northside, Mt. Adams or OTR?  The Urban Nights events seem to be pretty cool, but has there been a major turn around in downtown Dayton similar to the changes happening around Fountain Square or the Gateway Quarter?  I don't know the answer to these questions, but from my limited interactions with Dayton, my guess would be no.

Can someone please respond to my question posted earlier? How is Dayton different from Cleveland or other Ohio cities for that matter? I hear doom and gloom all the time. How is this different?

 

It isn't different.  Same sob story, different day.  This state (along with the rest of the Rustbelt) seems bent on negativity due to national media coverage, perceived downfalls, and, well, honest job losses.  Ohio hasn't hit bottom yet but when it does, it can only pick itself up (case in point: Atlanta).  Only those that do not see that are simply the problem and will fade with time.

Compared to Cincinnati (albeit not great at this either, but it's the same region), Dayton just seems to lack the gusto to turn events into a culture.  There are great art events in Dayton, but are there any art colonies like Northside, Mt. Adams or OTR?  The Urban Nights events seem to be pretty cool, but has there been a major turn around in downtown Dayton similar to the changes happening around Fountain Square or the Gateway Quarter?  I don't know the answer to these questions, but from my limited interactions with Dayton, my guess would be no.

 

It's different.  Dayton is perhaps more alternative art; Cincinnati is more expense art.  Oregon District, South Park, and Webster Station all have those "organic" art types (those that attended Stivers post-70's know) and it's laughably disjointed; Cincinnati's Northside and OTR are perhaps the city's only true "artist" neighborhoods and thus there is a group of folks concentrated moreso than a disjointed Dayton.  I wouldn't consider Mt. Adams artistic by anymeans unless you mean a combining peach and black cherry at the UDF.  Jeffrey did a wonderful post years ago detailing the "organic" art of Dayton with the warehouse art nights and etc.  I don't see that in Cincinnati.  Other side of the coin, there are rarely gallery "hops" in Dayton (if at all, aside from Urban Nights) as opposed to those select nights in Over-the-Rhine showcasing the galleries of Main and Vine Streets or at the Pendleton Arts Center.

 

But really, Southwest Ohio in general ain't exactly the greatest when welcoming artist types (compared to Columbus and Cleveland) so that regionally needs to be addressed.

^

I think they have just started (this year) a first friday gallery hop in the Oregon.

I've tried to avoid posting on this thread, mainly because of the sheer "gloom and doom" mood that it has, but I have got to say that it is downright pathetic when I have to viciously defend the city of Dayton on Urban Ohio from some of you UO posters out there like I was trying to preach the virtues of joining Al-Qaeda or something.

 

However, I think a lot of the reasoning behind the negative attitudes is because of the feeling of a lack of accomplishment by the city, its corporations, and its leaders, paired with the fact that the healthy Columbus and Cincinnati Metros are right up the street, and also the less-noted fact that the City of Dayton actually looks pretty good from the street. Personally I get frustrated a lot because of the feeling that despite the fact that Dayton seems to have all the right things, right assets, and seems to make all the right moves, we continually get kicked to the curb, belittled, defamed, ridiculed, and flat out hated on by people who have no experience what so ever with the city, such as Bill Nuti, CEO of NCR (who hopefully will pull a "Madoff" soon and defame his own @ss.)

 

Still, I know that Dayton will probably never be the power player it was 100, 50, or even 30, years ago in my lifetime (and I'm still in High School). But, we need to face the facts, look at our assets in a realistic light, cut loose the old, tired, and inefficient businesses and practices we prop up or try and recruit, and diversify. We need to get those regional hubs for SW Ohio and effectively compete against the 3C's, along with the south, west, China, or whatever. We need to make businesses love us, through Liberal or Conservative methods, and we need to focus on Entrepreneurship

 

Believe it or not, entrepreneurship is probably the most "natural" way for Dayton to take to ensure economic success in its (our and my) future, since it does host the nation's second-largest tooling-and-machining community (all of which are pretty much small businesses), an extensive heritage of entrepreneurship from the brothers Wright to the "barn gang", Patterson, Rike, Mead, Huber, and more, and now hosts the Aileron Institute in the metro area, which is rapidly growing into one of our community's most valuable assets.

 

We also need to partner with our universities like the University of Dayton, with its #4 in the country entrepreneurship program, and make Dayton once again a hub for innovation through the power of our youth (including myself  :-) ). We also have Sinclair, a top 25  commnity college in the nation, and Wright State, which can do some great things with further funding (although I will admit it's the nicest fourth-tier school I think I've ever seen), and a crazy amount of branch campuses, along with easy access to places like Miami U, Antioch, Central State, Wittenberg, Earlham, and Ceaderville.

 

Also, I think that we need to get past our attitude of "all hel's broke loose" snce maybe we don't have the greatest areas in town, ormaybe our downtown business community is a little lacking. But heck, we still have a sizable downtown business community, gerat neighborhoods, architecture to easily rival most cities (and leave the new "sprawl-burbs" in the dust)(. We have quality housing, reasonable prices, great people, andfor the most part, a great attitude.If e make sure more of our local populace has easy access to higher education (you can't get much easier than Sinclair), great assets to keep them in town (we need to work on this), and strong support systems for entrepreneurs, along with an extremely small business-friendly climate (we're part of the way there, and fortunatley, this is an area where we are actually progressing...) We could be back on track.

 

Heck, Portland did it. So did Pittsburgh and Cleveland and almost all of the south, and Scranton, Rochester, and Milwaukee doing it right now. Why can't Dayton?

^Apologies for pathetic grammar at the end of that post. For some reason, the "box" wasn't letting me scroll down, so I was just kind of typing without watching what was coming out.

No apologies.  It was from the heart, real, and something that needed to be said.  This is the reason why I love (and am proud of) UrbanOhio's influence.

Dayton just seems to lack the gusto to turn events into a culture.

 

I think this happens more with the local music scene.  There is something happening every weekend and on the weekdays.  And I know that there is a subculture here were bands (and individual performers) go to listen to other bands, as well as the personnel shifts and such.  Plus there is usually one or two local labels.  Bands also have their followers.  So this is a subculture of sorts.

 

This isn't a geographically concentrated scene since these people live all over town (probably with some concentrations in the Oregon and East Dayton), but it is a form of community without propinquity.

 

Again this is all somewhat underground as there are certain blogs and myspace pages that clue one into events and venues that dont make the papers. 

 

 

 

 

Can someone please respond to my question posted earlier?  How is Dayton different from Cleveland or other Ohio cities for that matter?  I hear doom and gloom all the time.  How is this different?

I think the big three cities are incomparable to the other cities of Ohio.  However I think Dayton is probably comparable to Toledo or a really big Canton or Akron.  To me when I was there 5 years ago it felt like being in Akron 5-10 years earlier.  There was no real direction as far as planned "entertainment districts".  It was kind of a sprinkling of things here and there to see what might stick.  There's no E.4th in Dayton.  There's no warehouse district.  There's no Tremont or OC.  There's a ragged scramble of bars under a colorful railway overpass that is the portal to their Oregon District from the downtown.  This is an odd combination of flats mentality and architecture and cleve heights hipster spots all trying to co-exist together along two blocks of an old brick street(good call Jeffrey.).

Otherwise Dayton has a smattering of new development but there doesn't seem to be a grandiose downtown plan or really any plan to drive redevelopment.  The other cool thing to see is Dayton has electric trolleybuses although I never had the need to ride one..

There's a ragged scramble of bars under a colorful railway overpass that is the portal to their Oregon District from the downtown.  This is an odd combination of flats mentality and architecture and cleve heights hipster spots all trying to co-exist together along two blocks of an old brick road street

 

Something Akron doesn't have. 

 

And Akron doesn't have a warehouse district, either, from what I could see.  Oh, sure, Im sure there was one at one time, but it may have been removed by that urban renewal that wiped out most of the area surrounding downtown.

I can't think of any city I've visited that had its main entertainment district bars, restaurants, and shops so densely intermixed and I don't think with any franchised chains involved either.  Its a great organic party zone.

 

 

 

 

Jeffrey did a wonderful post years ago detailing the "organic" art of Dayton with the warehouse art nights and etc.

 

There's another warehouse art thing going on...this time in a failed loft conversion.  The Excelsior, which used to be a big commercial laundry, is being leased out as artist lofts and they are starting to have large scale "installation art" things there.  Think of it as a second Front Street, though not quite as snaggletooth as Front Street.

 

Its sort of ironic in that the usual pattern (a la Rent) is that the creative types are pushed out of the lofts via gentrification, while in this case it was gentrification that failed, leaving the space for creative types.  So the underground is coming above ground 

 

 

Actually, I thought abcsolutely nothing about Dayton, before I joined Urban Ohio. But Jeff's detailed posts over the years had really made it sound appealing to me.

 

Wow, thanks!  I have to say that doing this in-depth research, I know too much...so what's happened to the city is particulary painful since I know what was lost, or can discern the outlines of the old city through the scrim of history. As well as how things like commonplace old houses are just a bit different there. Sort of a five year exploration of what made up the genus loci.

 

And Dayton reminds me so much of an older Chicago I knew.  That's what so sad, as I can see what a fascinating place this was, how alive it might have been. Too much living in the past.

 

I have to say, regarding this art and music stuff, I wish I was younger to be able to this scene more and post and document it more. I'm too old for all that.

 

One interesting thing about this thread...it talks about economics and it talks about culture.  A place in a weak economic postiion can still have a lively street culture.  I think an example of this would be Liverpool in the late 1950s into the 1960s, and Manchester in the late 1970s through the 1980s.  Both places had active (and influential) music scenes.  At the same time they were in economic decline.  I guess the US example would be house/techno in Detroit.

 

 

 

Re: "genus loci". That phrase got me thinking.

 

Let me throw in a really old self description of Dayton, from the era in the early and mid 20th century in which my parents grew up and started their family in Dayton. This is as close as I can possibly get to how my mom felt about the city.

 

Dayton was a city that was in spirit a large village. "Cozy" in spirit and demeanor. It took care of its own and it sustained its own. I mean through the local industries and the local cultural scene. And Dayton had at one time a united vision of itself. It was a center of (choke, believe it or not) progress, and industry, and ... hope. That things could always be improved and built up.

 

The "big village" idea carried through to neighborhoods like Dayton View or Belmont or Ohmer Park, each of which operated sort of like little villages in their own right with their own distinct downtown shopping districts and their own suburban area. All part of the larger whole.

 

When I grew up in Belmont in the 1960s, Belmont felt like a village that was part of a larger fabric. Things were changing then but it still had that feel.

 

So make of that what you will. That's as close as I can come to my parent's experience of Dayton as a place. By the 1980s, Dayton was foreign and distasteful to my mom due to white flight, neighborhood decline, urban renewal, etc.  But she remembered the familiarity of the place from when she was growing up - kind of a small town feel with big city bustle.

The Oregon District, Dayton Art Institute, Wright Patt, a forgotten Downtown, some depressing neighborhoods are all what come to mind. When I look at similarly sized cities elsewhere, like Windsor, I just find it sad that the vast majority of residents would rather invest in a "lifestyle" center rather than their intact and attractive downtown area and their inner-city neighborhoods. Daytonians could have a great little city; if only they wanted that.

How I compare Dayton to Akron is the similar periods of high growth happened at the same time.  Both cities were known for their technological advances, inventors, and patents.  Both cities sit more or less in the shadow of a larger Ohio city.  Both cities are considered entrenched in automotive business.  Both cities have gone through large changes in losing their primary industries.

  What makes Dayton different is the air force base nearby.  Akron has a national park.  Dayton has highway access in and out of town in multiple directions.  Very few people decide when they're coming from Columbus on to Cleveland that they should swing by Akron.  Dayton is much more at a major crossroad for travelers.

  Both cities are known for their Americana and critical links to American history.  Both cities had wealthy industrial barons that left behind valued community treasures. Both cities have had a similar drop in population while watching various suburbs grow.  Neither city has a port yet both started as canal towns.

Thank you Daytonnatian!

This is a fabulous thread.....I could write so much on it, but I don't have time.  When I think of "Dayton", many things come to mind.

 

Much has been said on the economic and cultural aspect of the city, but I'll add this...

 

One thing I think of when I think of Dayton is "real people".  I have always found the people of Dayton to be down-to-earth, common sense, practical people who have life in perspective.  They aren't a pretentious bunch.  They are honest, outgoing, and like to have a good time.  Dayton is a bit of a party town compared to surrounding cities.  If you attend a street festival, you are likely to be danced with by a stranger.  In other cities, strangers won't even look at you. 

 

For a city as a whole, Dayton has some of the the best people in the world.

 

This is a fabulous thread.....I could write so much on it, but I don't have time. When I think of "Dayton", many things come to mind.

 

Much has been said on the economic and cultural aspect of the city, but I'll add this...

 

One thing I think of when I think of Dayton is "real people". I have always found the people of Dayton to be down-to-earth, common sense, practical people who have life in perspective. They aren't a pretentious bunch. They are honest, outgoing, and like to have a good time. Dayton is a bit of a party town compared to surrounding cities. If you attend a street festival, you are likely to be danced with by a stranger. In other cities, strangers won't even look at you.

 

For a city as a whole, Dayton has some of the the best people in the world.

 

 

Bingo, bingo, oh, and bingo.

...I just find it sad that the vast majority of residents would rather invest in a "lifestyle" center rather than their intact and attractive downtown area and their inner-city neighborhoods. Daytonians could have a great little city; if only they wanted that.

 

Hits the nail right square on the head.

 

....though I say they "could have had a great little city" since it's probably beyond the point of no return (urban theorist David Rusk listed it as such).  Or at best a Charlotte situation were all the old stuff gets torn down and they start from scratch.

 

But don't bet on it.

 

For a place where the population, or enough of it, realized they could have a great little city, and made it so, there is Louisville.  Could have ended up like Dayton, but then there was some sort of cultural revolution or change of heart and re=thinking, for enough people,  and things started to happen....

 

 

On edit:

 

rather than their intact and attractive downtown area

 

Downtown Dayton is hardly intact. 

 

For an intact and attractive downtown see the pix of Grand Rapids in one of those pix subforums.  And now the city plans on continuning what urban renewal started.  I guess a sign of the times is that demolition contractors are major contributors to the city commission and mayors race this year.

 

 

 

 

 

See my reply (#39) above. Dayton once was a great little city with an exceptional amount of local and corporate pride. Daytonians of my parent's generation felt that the Dayton of their youth (pre-1960, say) was understandable and "reasonable". In its own little box. A mix of cosmopolitan, world class aspirations and real firsts with small town-ness.

 

Cozy. I want to push that concept. Not that it's duplicable today.

 

I think a variety of social and economic pressures in society - even the rise of the two paycheck household in the 60s - blew Dayton's established order of village like small neighborhoods apart at the seams.  One big issue was that two paycheck households becoming common in the 1960s considered existing housing stock within the city limits of Dayton to be unacceptably constraining - small houses with small yards. And Dayton had been reined in on the south by Kettering.

 

As for the future... it's a matter of will. Is Dayton considered controllable, tamable enough to make it a desirable business and residence location? So much of Dayton is ghetto and out-of-control.

On edit:

 

rather than their intact and attractive downtown area

 

Downtown Dayton is hardly intact. 

 

For an intact and attractive downtown see the pix of Grand Rapids in one of those pix subforums.  And now the city plans on continuning what urban renewal started.  I guess a sign of the times is that demolition contractors are major contributors to the city commission and mayors race this year.

 

Oops, I meant "rather" intact downtown (compared to Columbus, in which case just about anyone's could be considered so), but with more buildings poised to come down I guess even that might be too much of a stretch. Another word I associate with all of Ohio's large cities is "insular", it's like they all exist in their own little universe and where something has been proven to successfully aid revitalization, well, for whatever reason it just won't work here.

 

Dayton should be going all out to get a street car (they're two different links) and should also be pursuing cycling infrastructure i urban neighborhoods including Downtown, especially because of the smaller, compact size of Dayton. On a street like Main with multiple lanes in either direction all you need are some cheap sharrows painted intermittently along the middle of the right hand lanes, along with a some signs strategically placed at the entrances to Downtown on Main from the river and the highway. Boom, Main St becomes accommodating to cyclists and they're clearly given equal footing with cars. It costs very little to completely change the image of Dayton alone by repeating this on other downtown streets. The only obstacle is the insular attitude that considers something like this totally unprecedented, even though it's been done elsewhere.

Theres' been talk about a streetcar between downtown and UD, but things are certainly going to happen with cycling when they open that bike hub and rental center downtown.

 

There was a cycling summit here in August, where they brought in some author from Portland to talk about this (Jeff Mapes).  More Here

 

When I hear Dayton, I think of the city I grew up in. We used to live in Five Oaks until 88, move to Butler Township when there were drug related murders in the neighborhood. I moved back to the City of Dayton in 2007 after living in Athens for school. Worked at Stivers, worked for OSU at WPAFB, now looking for a new job.

 

I think the best thing about living in Dayton is the freedom of creativity you can have. It is embarrassingly cheap to live in the City proper. I don't have to bust a 60 week at two jobs to keep my apartment. I have time to work on art, music, make good relationships with friends. Meet interesting people, etc... I think there is definitely something to living in a "depressed" place that breads certain kinds of art and music, culture, etc... I have friends in Columbus and Cincinnati that are in the arts and I don't find it much different than Dayton, just more expensive and slightly arrogant/pretentious because of the location. I really like Columbus and Cincinnati though, that point aside.

 

Mostly, Dayton gets a bad rap from alot of people who never set foot in the city. I think the people here are OK, sometimes a little to ignorant. The party scene is good. I love finding a new bar tucked away in Belmont, the East Side, or even a few right downtown lately (The Embassy, J. Alan's). My favorite thing about Dayton is the music scene, past and present. Guided By Voices and Robert Pollard (the best rock and roll band ever, seriously!), The Breeders, 1970's Funk scene, a few 60'S garage bands that are fun, Jordan Hull, Jesse Remnnant, Drexel Dave Sparks .... My new favorite is The Esther Caulfield Orchestra, a 60's pyschedelic-country of sorts. http://myspace.com/ecorchestra You can download the album "Good Morning Whiskey Breakfast" for free off his label website. Check it out!

 

Many of my friends growing up complained about not having anything to do in Ohio. You have to create it for yourself. These friends have all moved to big cities with ready-made scenes, cultures, and identities. They're all struggling to pay rent and even find temp work. In Dayton I can be my own person and enjoy myself quite a bit, and become reasonable successful career-wise at the same time. Don't know if I be here forever, but for now, it's perfect.

J-Alan's is sometimes a good place for live music. They have the Brown Street Breakdown blues jam on weeknights and various local bands on weekends.

 

Example of how much fun J-Alans can be, a pix thread from a Reggae Fest afterparty

 

...and when Los Lobos played throuh for Cityfok last year or the year before, after the gig at the Victoria they played an unannounced aftershow at J-Alans