My guess is that he, along with Forest City, wants the parking revenue that the city gets now.  They are using connectivity as an argument to pull it down. 

 

I can't imagine that he would get much traction out of it

I see no reason why that parking structure needs to come down to provide "better access".  If that's the argument he's going to make, it's asinine.

 

Plus, in a downtown with too many surface lots as it is, it doesn't make any sense to remove structured parking.  It just makes the adjacent surface parking lots more valuable.  I would rather see him work with the city to use the greenspace in front of the building for a hotel, office, or more structured parking.

Tearing down that garage makes little sense to me... unless it was part of a broader plan to calm traffic patterns at that intersection or to make way for a hotel.

I agree with the last few posts.  Gilbert's lost me on this one.  There's absolutely no need to remove that parking structure.  The green space becomes VERY attractive hotel space if and when a casino is built at Ontario and Huron especially when connected to a large parking structure.

I think the location is somewhat of a mistake.  A better location would be directly south of the Avenue at TT (the original small SOHIO building site), connecting under Huron to the Avenue.  Still get all the connectivity, access to the walkway, etc.  Lots of parking underneath. 

That corner is also Huron and Ontario.  Without the garage, is it big enough for the casino?

My guess is that he, along with Forest City, wants the parking revenue that the city gets now. They are using connectivity as an argument to pull it down.

 

I can't imagine that he would get much traction out of it

 

I think the city actually loses money on that garage and the other Gateway garage; parking revenue has been lower than expected in the early 1990s and lower than the debt coverage.  Don't have a source handy, but I think the PD wrote about this a few years ago.

My guess is that he, along with Forest City, wants the parking revenue that the city gets now.  They are using connectivity as an argument to pull it down. 

 

I can't imagine that he would get much traction out of it

 

I think the city actually loses money on that garage and the other Gateway garage; parking revenue has been lower than expected in the early 1990s and lower than the debt coverage.  Don't have a source handy, but I think the PD wrote about this a few years ago.

 

I think maybe it was Scene or Free Times, but I seem to remember a similar article.  Still, pulling it down doesn't get rid of the debt incurred to build it.  I am intrigued by the possibilities this opens up, though.  The garage as it exists right now creates quite a dead zone at street level.

^Agreed. I think its funny how everyone is defending a parking garage. This is UrbanOhio right? If this thing passes I would definitely be interested to see what ideas they have. To me that garage is oddly placed and poorly designed, it stands out like a sore thumb. That is such a high profile corner I don't think it's such a bad idea to rethink that whole area. I believe that corner could be put to much better use as a gateway between the casino and E 4th.

^Agreed. I think its funny how everyone is defending a parking garage. This is UrbanOhio right? If this thing passes I would definitely be interested to see what ideas they have. To me that garage is oddly placed and poorly designed, it stands out like a sore thumb. That is such a high profile corner I don't think it's such a bad idea to rethink that whole area. I believe that corner could be put to much better use as a gateway between the casino and E 4th.

 

Agreed. 

They should build on that surface lot between Huron and Prospect in front of the Q if they want to extend that E. 4th area

I'm still not a fan of gambling, but I am a fan of urban structures that interact with their sidewalks and surroundings. So now that Issue 3 has passed comes the discussion that matters most to this thread -- the design of the project:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/11/cleveland_to_get_its_casino_vo.html

 

Cleveland to get its casino; Voters OK gambling, approve Issue 3

By Reginald Fields

November 04, 2009, 12:23AM

 

.....

 

With Cavaliers majority owner Dan Gilbert pledging that construction of the $600 million Cleveland casino would begin no later than the second half of next year, city supporters are looking forward to thousands of new jobs and more tourism from this new form of entertainment.

 

"We're going to deliver something very special," said Gilbert, who declared victory shortly before midnight at a party in the Cavs' practice court on the fourth floor of the Q, a couple of hours after the Cavs' win over Washington.

 

He vowed not to build a walled-in, isolated compound, but something integrated with downtown Cleveland.

 

.........

Cleveland we love ya! You're getting a Medical Mart, a new convention center, and now, something you never had, ever before: A CASINO!

^And a new East Bank (eventually)...

 

Yep, good things for the city in the near term.  If the region can pull together and market downtown as a true tourist and convention destination, things will begin to take off quickly.

This is going to be interesting. The devil is in the details. I wonder how long it will take till we get some renderings.Will there be a connection to Tower City via the walkway? Will it actually embrace the street? etc etc.

While I recognize that a convention center and casino are two different kinds of buildings with different space needs, there also may be some similarities in their basic design -- large open rooms, need for similar support facilities, similar utilities, accessways, etc.

 

Thus, the $400 million convention center might give some indication of the scale of the $600 million casino. Thankfully, we don't need Photoshop to plop the proposed convention center onto the general location where the casino would sit to see just how large the casino could be and how it could be sited:

 

Pay no attention to the red circle. The relevant structure is immediately to the right of it:

 

And here is the previously proposed footprint of the $400 million convention center, which might give some idea as to the scale of a $600 million casino:

 

This is going to be a MAJOR construction project! And as others noted, it could happen at the same time as the convention center, medical mart and the first phase of Flats East Bank. And, BTW, finally the Waterfront Line will have a purpose!

While I recognize that a convention center and casino are two different kinds of buildings with different space needs, there also may be some similarities in their basic design -- large open rooms, need for similar support facilities, similar utilities, accessways, etc.

 

Thus, the $400 million convention center might give some indication of the scale of the $600 million casino. Thankfully, we don't need Photoshop to plop the proposed convention center onto the general location where the casino would sit to see just how large the casino could be and how it could be sited:

 

Pay no attention to the red circle. The relevant structure is immediately to the right of it:

 

And here is the previously proposed footprint of the $400 million convention center, which might give some idea as to the scale of a $600 million casino:

 

This is going to be a MAJOR construction project! And as others noted, it could happen at the same time as the convention center, medical mart and the first phase of Flats East Bank. And, BTW, finally the Waterfront Line will have a purpose!

 

As I said before this is a better spot for the casino as it will help, TC, they can possibly use this to lure in mid tier and a few upscale stores, add a hotel to the area and connect both the East 4th/Gateway, TC and HWD into one connected/continuous area.

I too had hopes of the front entrance of the casino directly to the south of The Avenue at TC.  However, the more and more I think about the wedge at the southern corner of Huron/Ontario, the more I like that concept.

I voted for this and I feel kind of gross about it.  I don't think it's going to add much to downtown besides a casino.  Maybe provide the Hard Rock with some more customers.  And, KJP, are you saying the Waterfront line will gain purpose from the FEB or the Casino?  I don't see a lot of people taking public transportation to do video slots.

No, but I see conventioneers at the new convention center (extended over the tracks per the North Coast Transportation Center) using the Waterfront Line to visit the casino, or Quicken Loans Arena.

 

I also see commuters using the Waterfront Line and its Flats East Bank station which is across the intersection from the new office buildings that are planned to rise there.

No, but I see conventioneers at the new convention center (extended over the tracks per the North Coast Transportation Center) using the Waterfront Line to visit the casino, or Quicken Loans Arena.

I don't share your optimism as the waterfront line takes almost as long as walking does, plus the B line trolley is also competitive on time and is free. I agree that FEB might bring some passengers to the WFL, but I can't see convention goers taking the WFL to the casino.

 

I voted for this and I feel kind of gross about it.  I don't think it's going to add much to downtown besides a casino.  Maybe provide the Hard Rock with some more customers.  And, KJP, are you saying the Waterfront line will gain purpose from the FEB or the Casino?  I don't see a lot of people taking public transportation to do video slots.

 

With all due respect, you're right.  You're not thinking.  This is very old information but, 1 Job downtown (at 28k) trickles to 2 business, excluding transit. at 35k - 4 businesses at 40k 6 business.  That means people are spending downtown.

 

The construction alone (along with the other developments) will add thousands of temporary construction jobs.  And where will ~23% of those workers spend their money?  Downtown.

 

The Casino PLUS Convention center should kick up plans for at least 2 large hotels. and upgrades and additions to current properties.

 

Business in the city have a reason to tout the city as a place to do business and hold not only large conventions but smaller meetings and conferences because we have added attractions to entertain clients.

 

With a casino, we'll get more Midwest regional tourism.  We already have the big city infrastructure to support: 

• Shopping(revamp TC) as casinos and shopping go hand-in-hand.  Tower City gets a must needed boost. We get jobs in TC and more people come to TC.  Its a plus for visitors and residents
  
• Dining also goes well with casinos.  We have first rate restaurants which will benefit from a casino and added hotels.
  
• Hotels.  with the Casino and MM/CC there will be the future need for at least two large (750 room) properties.  The guest will need places to eat, therefore spending their money downtown.
  
• Not to mention the jobs that the above will create.  those jobs will pump money into the local economy.  via transportation, local spending, etc.
  
• Perceived notion that downtown is hip, cool and a place to play will become as well.
  

Now do you see the bigger picture??

No, but I see conventioneers at the new convention center (extended over the tracks per the North Coast Transportation Center) using the Waterfront Line to visit the casino, or Quicken Loans Arena.

I don't share your optimism as the waterfront line takes almost as long as walking does, plus the B line trolley is also competitive on time and is free. I agree that FEB might bring some passengers to the WFL, but I can't see convention goers taking the WFL to the casino.

 

 

I'm going to direct that conversation to my response at a more appropriate thread:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,17056.msg438606.html#msg438606

I envision the same for the area.  As I've stated before, the city could be marketed as a true destination with the addition of a casino.  Again, the casino is not a silver bullet, but an addition to our already great entertainment options.

 

The casino could be marketed together with the East Bank, the WHD, TC, E4th, the future Euclid retail district, Gateway, and Playhouse Square.  It all ties together.  With the convention center located along the Waterfront Line, along with the Euclid Corridor, we'll have "connectivity".

 

Great stuff in my opinion.

I think those who opposed and are critical of the addition of a downtown casino greatly underestimate the amount of NEO surbaban residents who will be making their first trip downtown in years after this casino is built and at full operation.

 

^and there really are a staggering amount of NEO suburban residents who haven't been downtown in years.  Literally.

I envision the same for the area.  As I've stated before, the city could be marketed as a true destination with the addition of a casino.  Again, the casino is not a silver bullet, but an addition to our already great entertainment options.

 

The casino could be marketed together with the East Bank, the WHD, TC, E4th, the future Euclid retail district, Gateway, and Playhouse Square.  It all ties together.  With the convention center located along the Waterfront Line, along with the Euclid Corridor, we'll have "connectivity".

 

Great stuff in my opinion.

 

I couldn't have said that better myself.

Agreed! And while we're talking connectivity, and taking KJP's former Convention center/potential casino footprint into acount, it would be fantastic to allow ample space along the river for a walkway/boardwalk. Embrace the water, don't structurally overcrowd the rivers edge any more than you have to. With KJP's rendering the building appears to loom over the rivers edge too much.

 

I envision the same for the area.  As I've stated before, the city could be marketed as a true destination with the addition of a casino.  Again, the casino is not a silver bullet, but an addition to our already great entertainment options.

 

The casino could be marketed together with the East Bank, the WHD, TC, E4th, the future Euclid retail district, Gateway, and Playhouse Square.  It all ties together.  With the convention center located along the Waterfront Line, along with the Euclid Corridor, we'll have "connectivity".

 

Great stuff in my opinion.

 

I couldn't have said that better myself.

I heard the owner of the Harry Buffalo was b*itching that, how can I sell 14.95 steaks if they are giving them away for 9.95?  Hmmmm.... competition?  This city has a bunch of haters, if FC doesnt get there way they try to torpedo it, Jacobs might lose money so he trys to torpedo issue 3, Peter B. Lewis is given crap about his tower so he leaves for the burbs, jealous money ran John D. Rockefeller out of town...  IT IS HIGH TIME THIS CITY STOP COUNTING THE OTHERS MANS BANK ACCOUNT.  If another guy makes it big we should be happy for him, Gilbert isn't perfect (he looks sleazy, how much moose does he use, foreal?) but he MAKES things happen.  I like his grittiness, we need more entrepernuers like him to call Cleveland home. 

I heard the owner of the Harry Buffalo was b*itching that, how can I sell 14.95 steaks if they are giving them away for 9.95?  Hmmmm.... competition?  This city has a bunch of haters, if FC doesnt get there way they try to torpedo it, Jacobs might lose money so he trys to torpedo issue 3, Peter B. Lewis is given crap about his tower so he leaves for the burbs, jealous money ran John D. Rockefeller out of town...  IT IS HIGH TIME THIS CITY STOP COUNTING THE OTHERS MANS BANK ACCOUNT.  If another guy makes it big we should be happy for him, Gilbert isn't perfect (he looks sleazy, how much moose does he use, foreal?) but he MAKES things happen.  I like his grittiness, we need more entrepernuers like him to call Cleveland home. 

 

WTF??

 

Where did you get that information from?

 

He "looks" sleazy?

 

Looks has nothing to do with it.  Hell I'm as clean cut and polished as the come and in a business situation I'll stab you in the face, take your idea and go to print / broadcast before I can clean the knife and stick it in my next victim.

 

Sometimes....you kids scare me.

They scare us all! 

 

The casinos in southeast Indiana do not serve cheap meat.  There are no 9.95 buffets or $0.95 shrimp cocktails.  The dinner buffetts are ~$20, more on weekends and crableg nights.  The expensive restaurants are deservedly so.  The food is very good.

They scare us all! 

 

The casinos in southeast Indiana do not serve cheap meat.  There are no 9.95 buffets or $0.95 shrimp cocktails.  The dinner buffetts are ~$20, more on weekends and crableg nights.  The expensive restaurants are deservedly so.  The food is very good.

 

Exactly and Harry Buffalo, to me, is a bar.

 

This is only going to bring more people downtown.

It will be interesting to see how they establish the rules about alcoholic beverages.  Unlike Vegas, the Indiana Casinos do not serve free liquor and the drinks aren't cheap.  While people do drink while they gamble (I don't understand that!) I don't think they would go there just to drink, so other establishments shouldn't be harmed!

 

 

It will be interesting to see how they establish the rules about alcoholic beverages.  Unlike Vegas, the Indiana Casinos do not serve free liquor and the drinks aren't cheap.  While people do drink while they gamble (I don't understand that!) I don't think they would go there just to drink, so other establishments shouldn't be harmed!

 

 

 

SHHHHHHHHHH!!  I like playing BJ with drunks.  I can take the money!  LOL

You say that until one of them takes a hit on 18 right before you!

"I heard the owner of the Harry Buffalo was b*itching that, how can I sell 14.95 steaks if they are giving them away for 9.95?"... from FerrariEnzo's post

 

 

They scare us all!

 

 

The casinos in southeast Indiana do not serve cheap meat.  There are no 9.95 buffets or $0.95 shrimp cocktails.  The dinner buffetts are ~$20, more on weekends and crableg nights.  The expensive restaurants are deservedly so.  The food is very good.

 

DanB is right on. As I've said before the cheap food and drink in casino's is not the new paradigm. It is typically just the opposite. All the new casino resorts here in Vegas tend to offer overpriced food and drink options. The owner of Harry Buffalo is worried about something I would be very surprised if ever it came to pass. Keep in mind Gilbert's casino will have no nearby competition and therefore no need for crazy inducements.

You say that until one of them takes a hit on 18 right before you!

 

How true, LOL

You say that until one of them takes a hit on 18 right before you!

 

How true, LOL

You say that until one of them takes a hit on 18 right before you!

 

I might have to "study" that one!  But I'm a gambling man.  A brotha needs a new pair of shoes!!

dear diary...

sad day for cleveland. really sad how many idiots there are here........looks like the only smart people live in chagrin falls and hunting valley. how did this go from being defeated easily several times before to passing? smear tactics by the powers that be to flood us with commercials and ads all over tower city. disgusting. dudes really think a couple slot machines are gonna transform cleveland's economy. LOL.

 

 

hope you folks realize the people actually benefiting from this are the powers that be

 

 

i give up on this town.

sad day for cleveland. really sad how many idiots there are here........looks like the only smart people live in chagrin falls and hunting valley. how did this go from being defeated easily several times before to passing? smear tactics by the powers that be to flood us with commercials and ads all over tower city. disgusting. dudes really think a couple slot machines are gonna transform cleveland's economy. LOL.

 

 

hope you folks realize the people actually benefiting from this are the powers that be

 

 

i give up on this town.

 

I count one for sure!

 

It was never intended to transform Cleveland's economy. LOL.

sad day for cleveland. really sad how many idiots there are here........looks like the only smart people live in chagrin falls and hunting valley. how did this go from being defeated easily several times before to passing? smear tactics by the powers that be to flood us with commercials and ads all over tower city. disgusting. dudes really think a couple slot machines are gonna transform cleveland's economy. LOL.

 

 

hope you folks realize the people actually benefiting from this are the powers that be

 

 

i give up on this town.

 

People vote for stuff that has relevance to them. They're more likely to vote for a casino if it is in their city. Put a casino in 4 of the major cities in Ohio and it's a done deal.

sad day for cleveland. really sad how many idiots there are here........looks like the only smart people live in chagrin falls and hunting valley. how did this go from being defeated easily several times before to passing? smear tactics by the powers that be to flood us with commercials and ads all over tower city. disgusting. dudes really think a couple slot machines are gonna transform cleveland's economy. LOL.

 

 

hope you folks realize the people actually benefiting from this are the powers that be

 

 

i give up on this town.

 

wow... First of all no one in here has said this will transform Cleveland's economy.  The only people making that argument are those against the casino issue.  I don't need to say anymore about that... it's already been beat to death.

 

Second, the smear tactics that I saw were from those opposing Issue 3.  i.e. Issue 3 short changes Ohioans $400 million, it WON'T create 34,000 jobs, cash wagers WON'T be taxed, Gilbert was arrested for being a bookie, etc.  Proponents of issue 3 where airing commercials about the benefits of the casinos (jobs, taxes, tourism, development, etc...).

 

Third, of course those benefitting are the powers that be.  The powers that be are the ones investing the money!  Are you one of those guys that doesn't think people deserve to make money on their investments?  Those that take the risk reap the reward.  Oh, and in the process they tend to employ a lot of people and pay a lot of taxes... SHAME ON THEM!

 

Fourth, get over yourself.

sad day for cleveland. really sad how many idiots there are here........looks like the only smart people live in chagrin falls and hunting valley. how did this go from being defeated easily several times before to passing? smear tactics by the powers that be to flood us with commercials and ads all over tower city. disgusting. dudes really think a couple slot machines are gonna transform cleveland's economy. LOL.

 

 

hope you folks realize the people actually benefiting from this are the powers that be

 

 

i give up on this town.

 

and I've pretty much given up on you being able to post without spewing insults at everyone.  Learn to be respectful of other forumers, or respectfully... find somewhere else to post.

 

i give up on this town.

 

Does that mean you're leaving?

Side note, and slightly off-topic, but...

 

Does anyone actually go to Harry Buffalo for a steak?  :?

 

Just sayin'...

Issue 3 backers promise to open all four casinos within three years

By Reginald Fields

November 05, 2009, 4:00AM

http://www.cleveland.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/11/issue_3_backers_promise_to_ope.html

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Now that Dan Gilbert and a Pennsylvania gambling company have won the lucrative sweepstakes for exclusive rights to build four casinos in Ohio, when exactly will they build them?

 

While the Issue 3 constitutional amendment allows casino gambling at four specific locations in Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati and Toledo -- all land for which Gilbert or Penn National Gaming have options -- the proposal sets no timeframe for the construction and opening of the casinos.

 

"I can assure you that we are going to develop here," Tim Wilmott, president and CEO of Penn National, said in Columbus on Wednesday. His company owns the rights for casinos in Columbus and Toledo.

 

"We have the development expertise and resources to do these two projects concurrently," he said, promising to open both by the end of 2012. "So, we'll have resources in Toledo and resources in Columbus doing the work that needs to be done."

----------------------------------------------

It looks like They plan on starting asap and that Cleveland will be the Flagship Casino, so to speak

Its funny how people are angry here. Maybe because something is actually going to get done? :? OMG what a change.

 

"Here" as in UrbanOhio? or "here" as in Cleveland/NE Ohioans?

Side note, and slightly off-topic, but...

 

Does anyone actually go to Harry Buffalo for a steak? :?

 

Just sayin'...

 

No, I got there for the wicked sweet chili, pulled pork, and cheap beer.  I didn't even't know they offered a steak.

I'm not pro casino's, and I think Dan Gilbert is the spokesmodel for Forest City.  That said, I think Forest City is a good developer for large scale installations.  They did a great job transforming the Terminal Tower complex into Tower City, despite falling short of their original plans.

 

There was an article with one of the Ratners recently where he was saying that if the casino issue passed, it might be a blessing that the medical mart and CC would go to the mall.  If that is true, I am exited to see what FCE has up their sleeve for the rest of the property including Scranton Peninsula.