^nThe back end of TC was such a terrible location for a convention center (physically speaking) and such an ideal location for something like a casino.  And this really may be the incentive needed for FCE to reinvest in their mall and hopefully to getting some better retail options back in the space.

I'm not pro casino's, and I think Dan Gilbert is the spokesmodel for Forest City.  That said, I think Forest City is a good developer for large scale installations.  They did a great job transforming the Terminal Tower complex into Tower City, despite falling short of their original plans.

 

There was an article with one of the Ratners recently where he was saying that if the casino issue passed, it might be a blessing that the medical mart and CC would go to the mall.  If that is true, I am exited to see what FCE has up their sleeve for the rest of the property including Scranton Peninsula.

 

Really why?

^Remember the front page story the PD gave him during FCEs attempt to scuttle the CC/MM or at least have it built at tower city?

-I think every casino proposal in Cleveland had the financial backing of FCE, where they would own and operate it, except this one.

-The Casino is being built at Tower City, on the same land FCE would not sell to the county.  They only offered the county "air rights." 

-Dan Gilbert has partners in the casino other than Penn, who are undisclosed.

 

I think Gilbert is more of a partner with FCE, and I am sure he made a good deal for himself.  FCE is smart as well, using him to lobby for the interests of the company would sway public opinion more effectively than say a Sam Miller.

Your conspiracy theories have gotten the best of you!

I find punch's scenario very believable... possibly probable.

I find punch's scenario very believable... possibly probable.

 

That, from a man who needs help getting dressed?!  :laugh:  :laugh:  Puh-lease!  LMAO!!

I'd say his theory is probably well grounded. I don't know that for a fact, but they are believable.

 

I also think this site is MUCH better suited for a casino than the CC/MM. The old CC needed a new lease on life, and leaving it vacant for a CC/MM built at Tower City was a horrible thought to me. Another undoable idea is putting a casino at the old CC mall site.

 

As we play a variation of Sim City with downtown Cleveland, I'd say the pieces are starting to settle in the right places.

I'd say his theory is probably well grounded. I don't know that for a fact, but they are believable.

 

I also think this site is MUCH better suited for a casino than the CC/MM. The old CC needed a new lease on life, and leaving it vacant for a CC/MM built at Tower City was a horrible thought to me. Another undoable idea is putting a casino at the old CC mall site.

 

As we play a variation of Sim City with downtown Cleveland, I'd say the pieces are starting to settle in the right places.

 

Now that is something that I think we can all agree on. 

 

The decision to place these large scale projects, in the locations chose, will re-enforce the business foundation of the city, and help attract businesses and residents to it.

 

Things wont turn around overnight, but by 2012/2013 we should be in much better economic shape than today. 

 

Also the perceived notion that nothing happens in Downtown and metro Cleveland will greatly change.

All before the Gay Games and the world's spotlight.  I have to agree- things are moving in the right direction.

^Remember the front page story the PD gave him during FCEs attempt to scuttle the CC/MM or at least have it built at tower city?

-I think every casino proposal in Cleveland had the financial backing of FCE, where they would own and operate it, except this one.

-The Casino is being built at Tower City, on the same land FCE would not sell to the county. They only offered the county "air rights."

-Dan Gilbert has partners in the casino other than Penn, who are undisclosed.

 

I think Gilbert is more of a partner with FCE, and I am sure he made a good deal for himself. FCE is smart as well, using him to lobby for the interests of the company would sway public opinion more effectively than say a Sam Miller.

 

I think it can also be as simple as that FCE has his ear.  They own the building he chose to locate his quicken loans call center... and they also happen to own all the available land next to his largest investment (quicken loans arena / cavs).  If he wants to develop around that to bolster his own interests... he's got to work with them.

All before the Gay Games and the world's spotlight. I have to agree- things are moving in the right direction.

 

That's a good point...lots of new venues/entertainment districts scheduled to be opening up just prior to hosting some nice events!

All before the Gay Games and the world's spotlight. I have to agree- things are moving in the right direction.

 

And I bet the 2013 Senior Games will bring plenty of gamblers too! :)

Is the proposed path of the towpath trail on the TC side of the river?  I hope when they design the casino they are sensitive to the trail, and the river in general

The proposed trail routing is on Scranton Peninsula:

 

http://planning.co.cuyahoga.oh.us/towpath/maps.html

 

EDIT: I see that there is also a secondary trail proposed to be built below the casino site. That's also where the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad has proposed its Tower City station. Gee, another project that could be bolstered by this!

I think those who opposed and are critical of the addition of a downtown casino greatly underestimate the amount of NEO surbaban residents who will be making their first trip downtown in years after this casino is built and at full operation.

 

Agreed.  My parents live in Avon.  My mom loves slot machines.  She'll come downtown more once the casino is built.  (even though all three of her children live in Cleveland, but that's another story...)

Hell I'm as clean cut and polished as the come and in a business situation I'll stab you in the face, take your idea and go to print / broadcast before I can clean the knife and stick it in my next victim.

 

What?

I heard the owner of the Harry Buffalo was b*itching that, how can I sell 14.95 steaks if they are giving them away for 9.95?  Hmmmm.... competition?

 

I don't think we'll be seeing a lot of cheap steaks at the casino.  Have you seen the food prices at The Q?  Ouch...

It will be interesting to see how they establish the rules about alcoholic beverages. 

 

Considering Ohio law doesn't even allow grocery stores to give out free wine samples (that's why you have to pay a quarter) I don't see any type of free alcohol coming to Ohio casinos for a long while, if ever.

sad day for cleveland. really sad how many idiots there are here........looks like the only smart people live in chagrin falls and hunting valley. how did this go from being defeated easily several times before to passing? smear tactics by the powers that be to flood us with commercials and ads all over tower city. disgusting. dudes really think a couple slot machines are gonna transform cleveland's economy. LOL.

 

hope you folks realize the people actually benefiting from this are the powers that be

 

i give up on this town.

 

Bye!

jborger...honey, you can put more than one answer in a post. ;)

-Dan Gilbert has partners in the casino other than Penn, who are undisclosed.

I think Gilbert is more of a partner with FCE, and I am sure he made a good deal for himself.  FCE is smart as well, using him to lobby for the interests of the company would sway public opinion more effectively than say a Sam Miller.

 

There were "Yes On Issue 3" signs posted all over the main concourses in Tower City.  Before Issue 3 passed, Gilbert's team said they already had an option to build on the land.  Forest City backed Issue 3, even if they weren't public about it.

EDIT: I see that there is also a secondary trail proposed to be built below the casino site. That's also where the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad has proposed its Tower City station. Gee, another project that could be bolstered by this!

 

Hopefully Gilbert will put some money towards the towpath in the same way that Steelyard Commons did.  But I hope it looks better...

 

Bike racks outside a casino entrance?  Haha, that could be interesting!

I don't think the towpath is planned for that side of the river anymore. It would go along the west bank.

I heard the owner of the Harry Buffalo was b*itching that, how can I sell 14.95 steaks if they are giving them away for 9.95?  Hmmmm.... competition?

 

I don't think we'll be seeing a lot of cheap steaks at the casino.  Have you seen the food prices at The Q?  Ouch...

 

Food prices are subsidized by gambling to keep people in... not to mention O2 being pumped in... alcohol that you need only tip the waitress for... not that I would know or anything.  I think if you are expecting natchos and cheese plus beer as the limitations in food options you will be mistaken.  Has anyone else actually been to a casino!?  It doesn't seem like it judging from some comments.

The last time I was at a casino there wasn't any great deal to be had with any of the food venues inside the casino.  I don't think food vendors have much to worry about.  I would be more concerned with headline entertainment venues being hurt.

Has anyone else actually been to a casino!? It doesn't seem like it judging from some comments.

 

I worked in one for a summer.

 

Granted an Indian Casino in Oregon, but hey... Food wasn't given away, and the only free drinks were sodas. The restaurants were priced like a normal restaurant, and served killer food. In my casino experience, the only time you start encountering the $3.95 all you can eat lobster dinner is when one casino is competing against several others within a short distance. Otherwise, whats the point?

Does anyone know, with 100% accuracy, if the casino will have a restaurant?

What are you getting at?  Several articles so far have described this as a casino with restaurants and a concert venue, but I suppose nobody, even Gilbert himself, can say with 100% accuracy that it will have a restaurant.  Such would indicate an ability to see the future.

What are you getting at?  Several articles so far have described this as a casino with restaurants and a concert venue, but I suppose nobody, even Gilbert himself, can say with 100% accuracy that it will have a restaurant.  Such would indicate an ability to see the future.

 

Described.  No concrete plans.

 

We, the general public, know nothing, yet.  Correct??

I'm not sure Issue 3 even actually passed, come to think of it.

I'm not sure Issue 3 even actually passed, come to think of it.

 

Seriously, we don't know what's going to be included in the casino, but it appears people are getting all worked up over nothing.

 

Same discussion that happened when east fourth opened.  remember all the conversation that it would cannibalize the HWD and how can we maintain both areas with a shrinking population.  Both areas are doing fine and east fourth is still growing.

 

To me, it appears, that people are coming up with reasons to complain and worry, when not a thing has been announced.

 

Some earlier said, worry that concert venue would be hurt, again why?  Instead of saying that give me a reason why an added venue would not strengthen the total number of assets we have by adding more seats AND make the playing field more level, by giving promoters more options that fit the types of productions they are promoting.

 

Even here, people find the reason to say why something cannot work, but wont list one reason why something will work.  It's tiring to read.

The Hollywood Casino in Lawrenceburg, about 20 minutes from Cincinnati, has a couple of actual restaurants, 1 expensive with excellent food, 1 pub type food, the usual buffett that is pretty good, and the number of small snack type places.  It is the largest of the 3 casinos in southeast Indiana, but it does not have a concert venue.

 

The smaller 2, the Grand Victoria in Rising Sun is about 45-60 minutes from Cincinnati, and Belltara is a little more than an hour away.  Both have the same type of restaurants.  Maybe not as many choices.  Belltarra has a Jeff Ruby steakhouse which puts them a step ahead.  They both have a concert venues and fairly nice golf courses. 

 

Both get the smaller acts, usually older name bands from the 70's.  Chicago played at Grand Vic, we saw America there, I saw that Neil Sedaka recently played there.  Not really big time acts anymore.  The concerts are fairly short, maybe 1-1.5 hours, don't forget, the main goal is to get people back out into the casino!

 

It is really nothing to worry about, its not like people will stop doing anything else in order to gamble.

I don't know what you want MTS.  We're not supposed to discuss an upcoming project based on the reports that we're getting?  Or are we supposed to call Gilbert ourselves to hear it directly from his mouth that he is planning on having restaurants and a concert hall in his casino?  I think you just want those that disagree with you to shut up.  You don't hold yourself to the same standards of proof that you demand of others, which makes the calls hollow.

Not sure that there will be a concert hall, but I will guarantee there will be restaurants!

I don't know what you want MTS.  We're not supposed to discuss an upcoming project based on the reports that we're getting?  Or are we supposed to call Gilbert ourselves to hear it directly from his mouth that he is planning on having restaurants and a concert hall in his casino?  I think you just want those that disagree with you to shut up.  You don't hold yourself to the same standards of proof that you demand of others, which makes the calls hollow.

 

No that is not what i'm saying at all.  You, of all people, should know I say exactly what I mean.

 

I'm asking, why get all in a tizzy when we don't know anything?  That's just common sense to me.

Not sure that there will be a concert hall, but I will guarantee there will be restaurants!

 

Agreed.  If there is a concert venue, I would think it would be small.  Why would Gilbert want a concert venue to compete directly with his main venue the Q?  If he is owner in both venues, the casino venue would most like be considerably smaller or a size that can accommodate medium size concerts, which we lack in Cleveland.  PHS will come out unscathed.  (they really need to concentrate on dining and housing in their own backyard).

 

The HOB is the venue that will find increased competition.

 

In regard to restaurants, with all the restaurants that opened on East 4th, did it cause one restaurant in  Downtown, the HWD, Westbank, Ohio City or Tremont close?  Or did it help bring additional foodies out?

In regard to restaurants, with all the restaurants that opened on East 4th, did it cause one restaurant in Downtown, the HWD, Westbank, Ohio City or Tremont close? Or did it help bring additional foodies out?

 

If you are referring to the Harry Buffalo owner's comment: yeah, it was non-progressive, dumb and flies in the face of facts...

 

As for hotels, there's plenty of room in the Tower City complex to build one like Detroit just opened nearly a decade after the Greektown casino opened:

 

http://www.greektowncasino.com/HotelandVisitorInfo/index.html

 

 

If you are referring to the Harry Buffalo owner's comment: yeah, it was non-progressive, dumb and flies in the face of facts...

 

 

He is a foul, insecure, two-bit wanna-be mobster who gets lauged at by honest businessmen and real mobsters. He's afraid his mediocre restaurants are going to be marginalized by newcomers to Cleveland. And he is right to be afraid. Businesses don't seek to lower themselves to his level so he can still make money. They compete to outdo the other guy. Either TG needs to upgrade his offerings to compete or he needs to take the money from his mediocre restaurants to open a mobster museum or something similar to remember the sordid ol' days of Cleveland he just missed for being too young. I'm sure he'll excel at that!

Doesn't sound like he will be missed!  But seriously, how is the steak?

Food prices are subsidized by gambling to keep people in... not to mention O2 being pumped in... alcohol that you need only tip the waitress for... not that I would know or anything. I think if you are expecting natchos and cheese plus beer as the limitations in food options you will be mistaken. Has anyone else actually been to a casino!? It doesn't seem like it judging from some comments.

 

Subsidizing food prices at a downtown Cleveland casino doesn't make financial sense.  You might see that it some places (like Vegas) where there's a lot of casinos because they're trying to get the other guy's customers.  There will just be one casino here.

 

Also, you're in the middle of a city with a lot of other things going on.  People live and work here already.  So if a casino restaurant had some great deal that they were losing money on, you'd have business workers coming in on their lunch break, eating for cheap and then leaving without spending any cash gambling.  They'll make more money with market-level priced restaurants.

 

They can't give out free alcohol, either, without being in violation of state law.

 

And the idea that casinos pump in oxygen is a myth: http://www.snopes.com/luck/casino.asp

Does anyone know, with 100% accuracy, if the casino will have a restaurant?

 

Yes.  They will have "a few" according to people involved with the casino that I have heard speak.  They want to speak to local restauranteurs about opening restaurants inside the casino.  But they won't have 10 restaurants -- they've stated that downtown Cleveland already has established restaurants and they're not trying to make the casino into a bunker where no body leaves. 

^Right, why do people think that this new form of entertainment will destroy all the others?  People go to movies, plays, ballgames, etc, but they don't go to the same thing every night!

Plus, how can you spend 600 million without having space for restaurants, shops and concert venues...unless you have gold plated wall paper.

No one said that casino will destroy all others, just that it will be competition.  If I release a 600 pound gorilla into your living room, it doesn't mean you'll be mauled, it just means that you're going to have to "compete" for you bananas.

No, there were many posts in this very thread that people feel that other businesses cannot compete.

 

Argosy spent $350,000,000 on the new Hollywood Casino on property they already either owned or had rights to, and all of the main restaurant facilities are in the old dockside area, and all the infrastructure was in place.  It is really just a floating barge, so actually having to construct a building with all new infrastructure will probably account for the rest of the $600MM.

 

 

 

The HOB is the venue that will find increased competition.

 

 

I'm guessing that any venue would probably be booked by Belkin/Live Nation anyway--this is the arrangement in other regional casinos like Niagara Falls.  So they will deliver acts that don't fit in House of Blues and try to spread the wealth.

What people consistently miss in this town, and what consistently holds this town back, is that more competition downtown serves to create more business.  The more people see the more options, the more likely more of them will come down and partake ... and the better it will be for ALL the businesses; in this case, restaurants.  It's the same, on another level, with hotels -- more conventions and other activities come here when there are more, and better quality, hotels -- esp the large, mega quality hotel that Cleveland currently lacks.... But too often, in Cleveland, every biz owner's so damn busy trying to protect his ass, they actually fight competition in fighting to keep the turf exclusively their own, or their own little clan's.  And for too long, these owner's have our pols in their hip pocket and legislate this foolish fiefdom... is it any secret why people stayed the hell away from downtown in droves when there were only a few lone restaurants as opposed to now, when there are a bunch of them?.... Ditto retail, where sadly at the moment, downtown is no longer the popular foil/option to the malls, because choices are few.

^Agreed.

^^I have said this numerous times on this board.  It is always so easy to spend other peoples money...when a "biz owner" takes a risk, it is his livelyhood and the livelyhood of his family so...yeah...he is worried about his own "ass" and thinks about it long and had before venturing on something that might have potential, but there is no gaurantee.  I admire those who take the risk but don't criticize those who do not.

^^I have said this numerous times on this board.  It is always so easy to spend other peoples money...when a "biz owner" takes a risk, it is his livelyhood and the livelyhood of his family so...yeah...he is worried about his own "ass" and thinks about it long and had before venturing on something that might have potential, but there is no gaurantee.  I admire those who take the risk but don't criticize those who do not.

 

I agree with highlighted statement, however, I don't think the owner in question thought long and hard about the answer that was overheard.

 

If he takes a risk, he should smart enough to know when to fold'em.  Either up the ante and reinvent your business or fold!