Well at the risk of taking this off-topic, I just feel that if the casino is a success that space will demand something greater.

I don't think anyone eating at the TC food court gives a sh!t about the view.

 

I was talking to someone at a party over the weekend who managed to get into this luncheon where Dan Gilbert was the guest (some Cleveland Bar association thing).  He said Gilbert presented an overview of the Casino with a video presentation and he said it was pretty slick.  Built right up to the street and designed to be really interactive with the existing street scape.

The food court was originally designed as a gateway from the mall to the Rock Hall, when the Rock Hall was planned on being in the river.

 

Later they gave a half hearted remodel and changed" Steam Diner" to "Team Diner".

The point is, I expect the food court to be remodeled again to serve as the gateway to the casino

Heres the video.  Looks like there would be a Ducci store...?  :lol:

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/11/our_first_look_at_dan_gilberts.html

Great can't wait to eat at the Steaks&Stacks. Bringing that whole thing up to street level is a major challenge and must eat up a lot of the cost. I do like the activity it brings at street level, I hope they can maintain that in the final design. BTW I wonder how old this vid is, the Lebron sign is still up. Gilbert's gotta hate that.

While I commend the building up to the street and making Huron feel like an actual street, I find the overall design and siting disturbing.  I was hoping for something that anchored the actual corner of Huron and Ontario, and something that doesn't look like, well, sh_t.  That corner glass tower with the "cornice?"  Cmon.

Yes, disappointed that it does not address the corner and unfortunately it looks like nothing can eve be built there in the future (hope I am wrong).  Do like the way it turns Huron into an actual "street".  This could be a lot worse and generally like the concept.  Thank God we are not getting the warehouse that Toledo is getting.  They do need to somehow make Ontario less daunting to cross even if it is a major highway feeder.

I may be the minority, but I think it looks prety cool.  It was not aware that is was going to be semi "mixed use". 

I like the design. Street front entrances for the restaurants & retail is extremely rare for a casino. This could have a been a bunker and it's not.

It's probably still a bit early to say this, but it looks like this is easily going to be the best-designed casino in Ohio.

 

I know they're in fashion right now, but the Times Square-style video panels all over the place made me laugh!  I remember a while back ODOT had an issue with the LeBron banner on the Landmark Office Towers because it was visible from the freeway.  I wonder what they'll have to say about those things.

With the dated "we are all witnesses" signs on the casino, I would guess that the exterior design details are not what we are really going to see. I would equate it to the generic medical mart renderings that we saw a while back--just a massing with lipstick put on it.

 

I was hoping that the casino would occupy more of the huron/ontario corner.

I was hoping that the casino would occupy more of the huron/ontario corner.

 

Agreed.  That's my only real objection to this design.

Again, while early in the game, and what we are seeing is just conceptual to a large extent, I am sorta worried about the parking garage and how it will address the river.

 

One of my biggest concerns with the convention center going on this site was that it was going to be a hulking mass with possible blank walls right up to the river.  Not attractive if you were cruising on the river.

 

Depending how they do this, the mass of the parking garage could also adversely affect the river.  While it is always hard to adequately put lipstick on a pig (that being the garage), hopefully the side facing the river will be gussied up.  I don't know what that could be but hopefully design review does.  Does anybody know if the plan has the garage going to the river or will there be some sort of boardwalk (I know there has been talk of river access).  Even a board walk or some sort of promenade would have to be carefully thought out since it will be right next to the hulk of the garage.

Maybe they could dress the garage up like the 515 Euclid Avenue parking garage

The problem is this isnt a "design" and it wont ever be. This building was planned to be there 6 years ago. The only thing an architect is going to do will be to wrap it up, to decorate it. The structure, use, systems, etc will have been chosen already. Not that there are many architecturally significant casinos.. I can only think of a handfull and they are all in vegas. That site deserves something incredible, and it has a lot of potential..  my question is, why couldnt this fill the giant parking lot at w3-w6th and be involved with the warehouse district, while supplying shopping etc in that area, probably a fantastic lil arcade... aaah but on topic.. with this new addition, and flats east bank.. im starting to feel our cbd is spreading itself a little thin...

im starting to feel our cbd is spreading itself a little thin...

 

What is the deal with narrowing the river?  I just cannot wrap my head around that aspect.  There is empty space everywhere you look down the river--why not just extend further south and leave the existing river channel alone?    Tower City Amphitheatre is already done for isn't it?

Again, while early in the game, and what we are seeing is just conceptual to a large extent, I am sorta worried about the parking garage and how it will address the river.

 

One of my biggest concerns with the convention center going on this site was that it was going to be a hulking mass with possible blank walls right up to the river. Not attractive if you were cruising on the river.

 

Depending how they do this, the mass of the parking garage could also adversely affect the river. While it is always hard to adequately put lipstick on a pig (that being the garage), hopefully the side facing the river will be gussied up. I don't know what that could be but hopefully design review does. Does anybody know if the plan has the garage going to the river or will there be some sort of boardwalk (I know there has been talk of river access). Even a board walk or some sort of promenade would have to be carefully thought out since it will be right next to the hulk of the garage.

 

If they were allowed to have a hotel, it would be pretty cool to wrap the river facade of the garage with it.

Behind the scenes, I wonder how Forest City is thinking about the Casino's impact on Scranton Pensinsula.  On the one hand, they want this thing to be massive and successful to prop up Tower City.  But they also have a serious stake in protecting the views from Scranton Peninsula, so hopefully they'll help police the river-facing facade.

And will there be room for a Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad station just above river level? The convention center proposed for this site reserved that space for CVSR. I sure hope the casino's architects do the same now.

 

EDIT: I love the cars going airborne on the view looking north on Ontario Street! Slow down, people!! :D

 

And BTW, Huron has a "hump" in it as goes over the guts of The Avenue and Tower City Center. I realize this is just a massing, but there won't be a vista down Huron as shown in the video.

 

I've mentioned here before my indifference to the Casino but after seeing what this may possibly do for that part of downtown...I say bring it on.

It seems like a pretty large undertaking though. They're saying a "2013 opening". So, starting at Jan 1, 2011 (which is right around the corner) and giving them until Dec. 31, 2013 provides them with 36 months. That just doesn't seem enough time for this project as currently envisioned.

And it is likely that they would want to be open (at least the retail part) for the Holiday shopping season of 2013. That possibly shortens the timeframe here to 34 months. Cutting it close.

question.... will the underground parking for tower city share the casino parking or will there be separate entrances for each? 

I may be the minority, but I think it looks prety cool.  It was not aware that is was going to be semi "mixed use". 

 

I agree that it looks pretty cool.  It's urban and modern yet doesn't seem like it will clash with Tower City across the street.  I go running up Huron early in the morning and it can be so dark and dead feeling.  I feel bad for the people getting on/off the MegaBus and having that impression of the city.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but doesn't it appear that the rendering calls for a significant narrowing of Huron Rd.?

^Nope, just a river...

Looks like 4 lanes to me.  Leaving Huron at 6 lanes would be a monumental mistake IMHO.

It will be cool for Huron to feel like an actual street.

 

Like others, I wish this would have incoroprated the corner of Huron and Ontario more though

It looks like they are hoping to have some upscale retail incorporated into the casino complex.  I guess I just didn't realize before how integrated this would be with Tower city though so maybe some of this new retail activity can move into Tower city as well as the street level casino frontage.

If they were allowed to have a hotel, it would be pretty cool to wrap the river facade of the garage with it.

 

Or too bad a potential hotel couldn't anchor the Huron/Ontario intersection.

how long does gilbert have to wait to build a hotel?

It looks like they are hoping to have some upscale retail incorporated into the casino complex.  I guess I just didn't realize before how integrated this would be with Tower city though so maybe some of this new retail activity can move into Tower city as well as the street level casino frontage.

 

As the biggest shopper on this forum I hope not.  Retail should be on the street level.  Let it flow east & West on Huron.  Spread it into Gateway and the Warehouse district.  Retail should be on Euclid Ave. 

 

If something comes and its beneficial to both TC and the casino, then so be it, but I prefer street level shopping.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but doesn't it appear that the rendering calls for a significant narrowing of Huron Rd.?

 

THAT is an excellent point! Is Huron being narrowed to avail more space? If not, why not?

 

Would it cost less to narrow the river than it would to narrow Huron? Use the bridge decking for Huron as part of the sidewalk/al fresco dining area/promenade/pedestrian queue areas for the casino, restaurants and shops.

 

Narrowing Huron from six lanes to four should avail about 24 feet, and it would slow traffic on Huron, making it more pedestrian friendly.

I agree MTS that new upscale retail should be on Euclid or elsewhere at street level but a few small improvements in tower city would help bring more life to what is essentially the heart of the city.

So will these new shops and such be part of the Tower City mall, or managed seperately?

^The casino is really a seperate building (although attached to TC) owned by a seperate company so I imagine they would be managed seperately unless they retain Forest City as a management company since they have experience in that regard.  I would guess many other entities will be soliciting to manger the retail.

I know several government agencies participated in a "Memo of Understanding" supporting the concept of a downtown terminus for the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad ("CVSR").  One of the proposals from several years ago had the railroad following the north bank of the Cuyahoga river into downtown with either a depot in the Tower City complex or alternative location. The old B&O station further west along the riverbank past Sherwin Williams facilities would make a spectacular depot and would be a great way to link to the Towpath Trail, Lake Link, and other renovation efforts.  Does anyone know how this casino site plan would impact the plan to bring the CVSR into downtown Cleveland?  Have they included the CVSR memo of understanding in the design plans? 

 

 

So will these new shops and such be part of the Tower City mall, or managed seperately?

 

TC does not know how to manage or retain retail.  I would hope they are managed separately!

 

 

 

That's odd that they wouldn't push it towards the corner of the intersection more.  It would really start to build up that corner and make it feel like a city should, especially with the other two corners empty for the potential of more building.

So will these new shops and such be part of the Tower City mall, or managed seperately?

 

TC does not know how to manage or retain retail. I would hope they are managed separately!

Agreed, a quick walk through TC should make that obvious. Forest City did a great job turning a train station into a mall, but should have hired someone else to manage their mall.

Follow up article by Litt in today's PD (usual rant about not enough public disclosure...yeah we know your feelings on this by now Steve) which indicates that this video is just conceptual in nature and no firm design decisions have been made.  It suggests that many questions still need to be answered before the final design (even shape) of the casino can be implemented.  Things like the possible river widening, location of utilities, likely connections to TC and a possible connection with Higbees.  Seems that the plazas and shops are part of the eventual plan though.

 

Perhaps extenting to the corner is still possible.

I'm hearing a lot of frustration that the casino isn't positioned at the intersection of Ontario and Huron.  I'm sure there is a logical reason for this.  Looking at maps shows you that the RTA tracks run right along that corner and would pose some construction difficulties if a structure were to be built above.  In addition to that is the RTA walkway to the Q.  Now, it would be good for the casino to just remove that walkway and replace it with their casino floor, but that simply isn't possible.  Families will still desire an enclosed walkway from Tower City to the Gateway sports complex.  And the fact that this tunnel is government owned probably makes it even more difficult to demolish and replace. 

 

I have to imagine that keeping the casino away from the corner of Huron and Ontario saved some money and the headaches accompanied with dealing with the GCRTA.

I'm hearing a lot of frustration that the casino isn't positioned at the intersection of Ontario and Huron.  I'm sure there is a logical reason for this.  Looking at maps shows you that the RTA tracks run right along that corner and would pose some construction difficulties if a structure were to be built above.  In addition to that is the RTA walkway to the Q.  Now, it would be good for the casino to just remove that walkway and replace it with their casino floor, but that simply isn't possible.  Families will still desire an enclosed walkway from Tower City to the Gateway sports complex.  And the fact that this tunnel is government owned probably makes it even more difficult to demolish and replace. 

 

I have to imagine that keeping the casino away from the corner of Huron and Ontario saved some money and the headaches accompanied with dealing with the GCRTA.

 

In this day and age, those tracks should not present a problem.  Is it possible they dont own the space/air right or it cost to much.

 

Having said all that.  Remember this is just a mock up, there isn't even a design yet!

my guess is that is a holding space for a future hotel.

I agree that the tracks really should not be an issue.  I recall about 20 years ago a proposal for a 25-30 story office building across Huron (where the lebron sign was) right over the track.

 

Hotel would be great at that corner.  Again I hope some planning to tame Ontario a little.

The Van Sweringen brothers proposed office buildings along Ontario, over the tracks, from Huron Road south to the old Central Viaduct. Yes, it's easier to build on flat, solid earth. But anyone who expect things to be easy building in a 200+ year old city shouldn't.

Well, no one should expect it to be easy, but no on should expect a developer to not try to follow the past of least resistance (and maximum profit) either.  Hopefully, they'll find some way to make that corner work, but Hootenany has a very good point.

^That's a good way to put it.  I agree, the developers are just following the path of least resistance here.  If the casino is doing very well it may make economic sense to expand over the tracks or add a hotel.

<b>New Pittsburgh casino draws mixed reviews

Tom Beres</b>

 

PITTSBURGH -- Pittsburgh's new casino got off to a disappointing start, but it is working to bring in more visitors and dollars.

 

The facility opened in September, 2009. It's in the North Shore area on a riverbank, across from the Pittsburgh Steelers' Heinz Field home.

 

It's provided 1,500 new jobs and increased business for many Pittsburgh-area companies.

 

Pittsburgh has more activity downtown and a healthier economy than Cleveland....

 

Full article at

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=160148&catid=45

Ok... we can move the Cuyahoga River for a casino which will take an act of Congress... but we can't alter Public Square now can we? Where are this town's priorities?!!

 

End of rant.

 

I like what I see so far with the massings. I think the corner of Ontario and Huron would be great for a high rise hotel, and I believe that Gilbert once stated that he would wait five years before pursuing one. this would be the perfect location if you ask me.

^^ "Pittsburgh has more activity downtown and a healthier economy than Cleveland...."

 

Hey Beres show me something to back up this brilliant observation of yours.

 

 

If the river gets changed I will be forever convinced that there is little hope for anything in this city unless it's tied to a private-gets-public-pants-dropping.  Wolstein gave us brown fields in a once-otherwise vibrant tourist destination.  Now Forest City wants to alter the river, which overlooks a sea of empty land, parking lots and crumbling bridges.....

 

:whip: