Sadly I don't think the target demo for Gilbert's casino would set foot on a train.  They want to park within 500' of the front door in a multi-story parking structure, where they can feel safe within the city....

 

I think you'll find that most of the people who go to casinos are regulars. You know the old saying -- 95 percent of the alcohol is drunk by 5 percent of the population? Well, I suspect that rule of thumb applies to gamblers too. Probably 95 percent of total frequency of bets are made by 5 percent of the gamblers and not because they are laying down large dollar-amount bets. Many of the regulars at other casinos are inner-city blacks or old white people who chain-smoke -- either way they don't look or dress like they can afford to gamble.

 

I can tell you that there's a reason why the casinos in Atlantic City pay for hourly New Jersey Transit commuter trains to come down from Philadelphia. Or why Pittsburgh's casino subsidizes New Castle Area Transit Authority (a city smaller and poorer than Warren, OH) an extra four bus round trips every day except Sunday to operate 90 minutes in each direction between New Castle and downtown Pittsburgh.

 

I highly doubt Cleveland's casino or its gamblers will be much different than these experiences.

I think you'll find that most of the people who go to casinos are regulars. You know the old saying -- 95 percent of the alcohol is drunk by 5 percent of the population? Well, I suspect that rule of thumb applies to gamblers too. Probably 95 percent of total frequency of bets are made by 5 percent of the gamblers and not because they are laying down large dollar-amount bets. Many of the regulars at other casinos are inner-city blacks or old white people who chain-smoke -- either way they don't look or dress like they can afford to gamble.

 

I can tell you that there's a reason why the casinos in Atlantic City pay for hourly New Jersey Transit commuter trains to come down from Philadelphia. Or why Pittsburgh's casino subsidizes New Castle Area Transit Authority (a city smaller and poorer than Warren, OH) an extra four bus round trips every day except Sunday to operate 90 minutes in each direction between New Castle and downtown Pittsburgh.

 

I highly doubt Cleveland's casino or its gamblers will be much different than these experiences.

 

Not to mention the ACES train that Runs from NYC to AC

I don't compare our casino to East Coast ones, where trains are a way of life (and there are some might large parking structures at AC casinos like Borgata).

 

I compare it to midwestern variants, like Detroit and Niagara Falls.  Better have plenty of handicapped spaces!

Here we go again with the chicken and egg crap. How did trains get to be a way of life on the East Coast? By getting linked up with real estate development.

 

And did you know that the developer of the Cincinnati casino is offering to pay for a streetcar spur into their casino? Yeah, it's such a way of life in Cincy -- where they don't even have a streetcar in Cincy yet.

Is Pittsburgh "east coast"?

Nope. It's no more of a way of life in Pittsburgh, where the casino operator pays for public transit service from New Castle to downtown via the casino -- six days a week. Plus the casino also has a partnership with Lenzner Coach Lines to provide service between downtown destinations and the casino. Lenzner already provides the University of Pittsburgh's intra-campus transit system. And the Butler Transit Authority may start express bus service between Butler County and Downtown Pittsburgh via the casino, with funding being sought from the state and the casino.

 

Whether it's bus or train, Cleveland's casino presents an opportunity to help cross-subsidize regional transit in Northeast Ohio, such as from the Akron-Canton area, Youngstown-Warren, plus Lorain and Lake counties.

Nope. It's no more of a way of life in Pittsburgh, where the casino operator pays for public transit service from New Castle to downtown via the casino -- six days a week. Plus the casino also has a partnership with Lenzner Coach Lines to provide service between downtown destinations and the casino. Lenzner already provides the University of Pittsburgh's intra-campus transit system. And the Butler Transit Authority may start express bus service between Butler County and Downtown Pittsburgh via the casino, with funding being sought from the state and the casino.

 

Whether it's bus or train, Cleveland's casino presents an opportunity to help cross-subsidize regional transit in Northeast Ohio, such as from the Akron-Canton area, Youngstown-Warren, plus Lorain and Lake counties.

 

wholeheartedly agree!

That sounds like a well-thought out, economical, and progressive idea. No way it flys in this city :weird:

That sounds like a well-thought out, economical, and progressive idea. No way it flys in this city :weird:

 

Yes because every good idea Cleveland has ever had hasn't worked. :roll: Where do you spiteful, angry, haters come from? ? ? Could you do the rest of us who believe in this city a favor and go back there?

That sounds like a well-thought out, economical, and progressive idea. No way it flys in this city :weird:

 

Yes because every good idea Cleveland has ever had hasn't worked.  ::)  Where do you spiteful, angry, haters come from? ? ? Could you do the rest of us who believe in this city a favor and go back there?

 

Here we go again with the chicken and egg crap. How did trains get to be a way of life on the East Coast?

 

Density.  And lack of the easy to get to, low on traffic highway systems that Cleveland has.

Here we go again with the chicken and egg crap. How did trains get to be a way of life on the East Coast?

 

Density. And lack of the easy to get to, low on traffic highway systems that Cleveland has.

 

Nope. Most East Coast rail lines and stations were built where no city neighborhoods yet existed. To stay on topic, discuss it here:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18328.msg540467.html#msg540467

Thanks for the shot back KJP. I was pointing out that the idea seemed too good to be true. I've spent my whole life in this city and actively watched any and all progress it has had towards growing and expanding. So don't put me in with those lousy haters on Cleveland.com. I'd love to see something like a central rail hub, but I'm also realistic on the possibilities of that actually happening. Don't forget, we have a beautiful parking lot sitting in the center of our city. So while I also wish for great ideas, I have seen this city turn its head enough not to get my hopes up about it. But feel free to let yours fly.

Thanks for the shot back KJP. I was pointing out that the idea seemed too good to be true. I've spent my whole life in this city and actively watched any and all progress it has had towards growing and expanding. So don't put me in with those lousy haters on Cleveland.com. I'd love to see something like a central rail hub, but I'm also realistic on the possibilities of that actually happening. Don't forget, we have a beautiful parking lot sitting in the center of our city. So while I also wish for great ideas, I have seen this city turn its head enough not to get my hopes up about it. But feel free to let yours fly.

 

Thanks for the shot back KJP.

 

You're welcome. And anytime someone says all people in a large group (including cities) are _____ or will act ________, the comment is going to get shot at. And rightfully so.

 

Can we please get back to discussing the casino and its tertiary issues?

I've brought this up before but didn't seem to hear much of a response...  Has anyone seen or heard of plans/considerations for the north side of Huron road?  Right now if you walk along Huron you see a lot of freight entrances between Ontario and W. 2nd.

 

Though it's not property the Casino will own, it seems as though their attempt (or proclamation of one...) to make the Casino a part of the city fabric and "outward" in it's energy wouldn't really work if it faces a big UGLY cement wall...

 

I did recall Rock Ventures mentioning looking to ways to make the Huron/Ontario intersection more easily navigated by pedestrians, but none of the sleek-sexy videos showed much of anything different besides the casino building itself.

^ Thats a good point, thats a long, lonely stretch

Also, another Log-on-the-Fire...

 

My general perspective is that in a city like Cleveland (one where the Suburban-Tourists need to be re-acclimated gently (pfft!) to the urban lifestyle), venues and destinations need to be linked by obvious transportation and/or arteries so that they can feel comfortable "walking around town".

 

As such, my concern with the Casino is that (as was debated in this thread earlier) few people will go from W 6th to the Casino even though they are a few minutes apart (by foot no less!) simply because their lack of comfort/understanding of the landscape will bother them.  We'l need to lure suburbanites and visitors alike with sprawling and connected entertainment, not just oasis in a desert of dimly lit parking.  I currently live in Washington D.C. and can draw a map where my fellow young urbanites will walk up until and no further, even if other entertainment venues are just blocks away -- we will not cross unfamiliar territory without a subway stop or cab... 

 

It is not our place to try and change the rules of urban economics, but rather to learn of them and make our cities work within them.  Cleveland cannot be an exception to this.

 

So I had a quick question: in this map I surrounded the area beneath the Sherwin Williams banner in Green.  It is a hole in the ground leading to the Huron tunnels for the Rapid.  I was wondering if anyone thinks it's even possible, let alone an interesting idea, to put in I-Beams and make this developable land. Nothing tall, just a 1-story restaurant/bar/club area.  It's pretty big and could probably fit 2-3 venues.

 

(P.S.  I realize this is a pretty exceptional and even outlandish idea to toss out... and likely prohibitively expensive, but 1) All buildings need a foundation, perhaps this won't be that much different (cost or otherwise), and 2) I'm just trying to live up the the Burnham homage... why not think big when it's just UO friends!)

Hey, if you want to think Burnham-Big for that spot, why not build the Gateway at Landmark building proposed for that site in 1988? :-D

 

Hey, if you want to think Burnham-Big for that spot, why not build the Gateway at Landmark building proposed for that site in 1988? :-D

 

 

HOLY CRAP!!!! I never saw that before!

 

Is that thing 32 stories?

Awesome- I'd take half of that height for a casino hotel any day...

I do hope the casino leads to more development along Ontario there.  Not a lot going on.  The Gateway bars are all on the other side of the arena, and it's embarssing how downtown peters out 2 blocks south of Public Square.

Hey, if you want to think Burnham-Big for that spot, why not build the Gateway at Landmark building proposed for that site in 1988? :-D

 

 

HOLY CRAP!!!! I never saw that before!

 

Is that thing 32 stories?

 

Wow. Anything more on who proposed that and why? And why it didn't happen?

I believe that was proposed for Sherwin-Williams. I have the original newspaper article on it somewhere, buried in my files...

does anyone have a picture of what originally was supposed to be there?

I believe that was proposed for Sherwin-Williams. I have the original newspaper article on it somewhere, buried in my files...

 

Correct. The economy tanked after that was proposed, which was actually in 1989 or 1990, not 1988 as I originally said. And some business leaders who wanted to build in Cleveland in the latter years of Mayor Voinovich found the White administration too difficult to work with so projects were either moved to the suburbs (Progressive) or canceled (Sherwin Williams).

 

Originally, the Terminal Group plan proposed by the Van Swerigens had an office building that looked just like the rest of the Landmark office towers in that block (there's actually three buildings in that block now but they look like a single structure).

 

Anyway...... My point in posting that picture shows the scale of a building that could be built there as a spin-off from the casino -- the point of this thread!! It doesn't have to be limited to a single-story building, and it doesn't have to be a 32-story tower either. A narrow, 15-20 story hotel with a ground-floor entertainment complex (Dave & Busters, ESPN Zone, Jillians etc.) could go in there that little spot -- one of the last to be filled within the primary footprint of the original Terminal Group.

^ I was thinking hotel a while back. ESPN Zone is probably out of the picture now that they pretty much closed all their locations.

I think we would all like to see a building that large on that lot- and a hotel seems like a no brainer.  I thiink that Gilbert agreed to not building a hotel for 5 years after the casino is up and operational... so it would have to be another entity who does it.

I go away for a few hours and come back to this!  Wow...

 

Okay so since the question was answered (yes things can be built on that land) I wonder if any developers realize it (since it sounds like it has been 2 decades since the last consideration of a building plan for it.

 

 

Something else to consider is, again Huron.  As it is, right now, regardless of claims that this Casino will be built with "connections" in mind, it just doesn't seem possible.  The walk to WHD or E4 isn't bad, but they are separated enough to keep pedestrians from lining the streets between the areas. Something that stood out to me in the "Connecting Downtown Cleveland" slideshow put together by Mark Hinshaw of LMN was the idea of focusing on the Prospect > W 6th  and Huron > W 9th corridors.  If the city worked to gain funding and a plan for streetscaping that would make these routes "obvious" (and if there could be some way to develop the Huron Rd. along the Casino) then this could truly be the "flow" of our city, which is a unique twist... 

 

 

Once the casino is built you could always add another free downtown trolley that connects people to/from the casino, east 4th, and the warehouse district.

$85M deal with Forest City for casino site closes

 

By STAN BULLARD

10:13 am, February 1, 2011

 

Downtown Cleveland's planned casino just rang up an $85 million deal for Cleveland-based Forest City Enterprises Inc. Forest City announced this morning, Feb. 1, that it closed the sale of about 16 acres and air rights to Rock Ohio Caesars Cleveland LLC for the gaming palace.

 

Forest City said Rock Ohio Caesars Cleveland paid $11 million in cash at the closing. The balance will be payable in installments in late 2011 and 2012.The site is on Huron Road next to Cleveland-based Forest City's Tower City Center mixed-use complex. In a news release, David LaRue, Forest City executive vice president and COO, called the sale a “milestone in the process of bringing a first-class casino to Tower City and the start of an exciting new future for downtown Cleveland entertainment.

 

 

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20110201/FREE/110209986

Forest City closes $85 million sale of land for Cleveland casino

 

By Michelle Jarboe, The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The developer of a planned Cleveland casino has purchased 16 acres of downtown land from Forest City Enterprises Inc. for $85 million.

 

Forest City sold the land and air rights to Rock Ohio Caesars Cleveland LLC, the real estate company announced this morning. The property is adjacent to Forest City's Tower City Center, an office, hotel and retail complex on Public Square.

 

The casino developer paid $11 million cash at closing and will pay the balance in installments in late 2011 and 2012.

 

Read more at: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/02/forest_city_closes_85_million_1.html

"Golly, I guess they are serious..."

In a news release, David LaRue, Forest City executive vice president and COO, called the sale a “milestone in the process of bringing a first-class casino to Tower City and the start of an exciting new future for downtown Cleveland entertainment.

 

So if anyone doubted the casino would be physically connected to Tower City, that kinda answers it.

In a news release, David LaRue, Forest City executive vice president and COO, called the sale a “milestone in the process of bringing a first-class casino to Tower City and the start of an exciting new future for downtown Cleveland entertainment.

 

So if anyone doubted the casino would be physically connected to Tower City, that kinda answers it.

 

How could anyone doubt it would be connected?  Forest City has thrown their weight behind multiple public/private projects--each one designed to be connected to Tower City as it's future savior!

 

I was just thinking since construction could affect the mall. If they are connecting it through the food court it seems like they would have to close that area down at least. But if they aren't connecting through the food court, is there a possibility they would connect it from below the food court? Where the escalators are that go down to the garage.

 

There's no more reason for them to close down anything at Tower City for the casino than they did for the Stokes federal courthouse tower which is also connected to the food court. It also ate up a chunk of Tower City's parking area.

^ I was under the impression it would be connected more so then just a long tunnel.

By the way... if anyone wants a quick lesson in development finance...  Forest City just got $85m for a cliff with an akward ramp on it. Think about that and how acquisition costs affect development before complaining why something isn't developed.

 

 

By the way... if anyone wants a quick lesson in development finance... Forest City just got $85m for a cliff with an akward ramp on it. Think about that and how acquisition costs affect development before complaining why something isn't developed.

 

 

 

They got someone else to pay them $85 million to be allowed to build a casino that will likely result in a large upswing in business at their mall.  FCE really saw Gilbert coming a mile away.  They're getting paid on both ends of this thing.

They'll be a big announcement Thursday about the Higbee building.

 

Can someone post the PD article?  On the Iphone.

 

 

^thanks for the heads up!

 

Dan Gilbert's gaming company and Caesars purchase property for Cleveland casino

 

Developers of Cleveland's downtown casino have purchased for $85 million the 16 acres between Huron Road and the Cuyahoga River where they plan to build their $600 million casino.

 

And Thursday, developer Rock Ohio Caesars will announce what part the historic Higbee building will play in their plans for the downtown casino. Local officials had asked the developer to consider opening a first phase of the Casino in a location like Higbee because the permanent Huron Road casino wouldn't open until at least 2013.

 

Tuesday, word that a press conference had been called by Cleveland Cavaliers majority owner Dan Gilbert and Caesars Entertainment Corp. Chief Executive Officer Gary Loveman came within hours of the news that the pair's joint venture had finalized the purchase of the Huron Road property, including the air rights, from Forest City Enterprises Inc.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/02/post_421.html

At least the "moving the river" is officially off the table.

 

To add parking at the casino, the developer had looked filling in about 29 feet of the Cuyahoga River near Collision Bend, which drew sharp criticism from the public. He said yesterday that changing the river is no longer on the table.

By the way... if anyone wants a quick lesson in development finance... Forest City just got $85m for a cliff with an akward ramp on it. Think about that and how acquisition costs affect development before complaining why something isn't developed.

 

 

 

They got someone else to pay them $85 million to be allowed to build a casino that will likely result in a large upswing in business at their mall. FCE really saw Gilbert coming a mile away. They're getting paid on both ends of this thing.

 

I don't think DG got swindled.  It's likely a win-win.  Nothing wrong with that.  Everyone is focusing on some possible benefit to FCE, but don't forget that Gilbert now gets to build a world class facility right accross the street from the Q.  I suppose the question is whether $85 mill is FMV for 16 acres of downtown riverfront property.  Any real estate people care to weigh in?

I didn't say swindled, just that this was win-win- for FCE.  I'm sure it was still worth it for Gilbert to give FCE $85 million so that he could revive the mall they don't see fit to invest in themselves.

I didn't say swindled, just that this was win-win- for FCE.  I'm sure it was still worth it for Gilbert to give FCE $85 million so that he could revive the mall they don't see fit to invest in themselves.

 

I would say "indirectly" revive.  FCE knows, that the Casino is a "go", the convention center a "go" and housing continuing to rise in downtown Cleveland and adjacent neighborhoods, they themselves must put some money into "The Avenue" [and to call the city out, they know they need to add retail and hotels along Euclid] in order to really say the city is moving in the right direction.  All these pieces must be first rate, not half assed as these projects form a new spine in the core of NORTHEAST OHIO. 

I think that $85 million represents the single-biggest profit Tower City Center has netted for Forest City Enterprises. I say this because I doubt the casino would have been built there if not for presence of Tower City Center and Forest City's investment in it.

 

Now Forest City can use that $85 million to build a railroad station below the casino, or a big hotel above it. :-D

I think that $85 million represents the single-biggest profit Tower City Center has netted for Forest City Enterprises. I say this because I doubt the casino would have been built there if not for presence of Tower City Center and Forest City's investment in it.

 

Now Forest City can use that $85 million to build a railroad station below the casino, or a big hotel above it. ;D

 

or a Neiman Marcus. 

I thought you hated Needless Markups?