Id take a 7 days a week city over a 24 hour city anyday

I think they were implying "24/7"

"I kinda like the idea of a 24 hour Cleveland. Just my thoughts."

 

Yeah, but it sounds kinda goofy the way its worded here as if Frank coined the term "24 hour city".  Please expain further Frank, Im not sure people understand what you mean....... :|   

 

"This investment in this location will transform Cleveland into what I call the 24-hour city," Jackson said"

I have some questions on how this casino will be interconnected to other downtown entertainment venues/districts.

 

Obviously, being adjacent/connected to Tower City opens it up to TC, E. 4th, the Q, Progressive Field and Cleveland Browns Stadium, East Bank, W. 6th, Rock Hall, Science Center (via the Lakefront Line).

 

But what about the West Bank (Nautica Pavilion, soon-to-be Powerhouse Aquarium, Shooter's, Goodtimes, etc.)? Could this (and the East Bank project) spur the construction of some sort of walking bridge across the Cuyahoga to the Settler's Landing train station? Could there be enough incentive from business leaders (Gilbert, Wolstein, Jacobs, etc.) to privately finance such project ... Or earmark funds for such a bridge to the city/county if it's legally not possibly for something like that to be privately built? I'm no legal nor engineering expert.

 

However, if this casino plan is to integretate itself with downtown, I think the West Bank has to be taken into consideration. I'm guessing that West Bank visitors are being counted in this 14,000 per day average, and right now, without getting back into a car and driving closer, there is no way those people can easily go from there to the casino.

 

This is tower city I see no need for changes. A walking bridge across a working river? I doubt it. The best we can hope for are privately owned shuttle to go between the two areas, which I dont think are necessary, as they would have to be subsidized and that means costs at venues increase.

 

There is and will continue to be a private shuttle which takes drunks from one side of the river to the other...

 

The Christie's shuttle?

 

Very basic question about "Phase 1" of the massive Casino plans: Do plans call for the Horseshoe Casino to continue in the Higbee Building when the huge complex of Phase II is open? I can't seem to get a handle on this; some seem to be saying the 350 million renovation etc. on Public Square is for an approx. "two-year" project, while others are implying there will be the two facilities indefinitely. Of course, if some of the $350M goes to slot machines, etc. that will be moved to Huron then the expense seems less massive. But then any renovation/restoration to the old Higbee's sounds like the Casino will remain there for many years.

Is this question TOTALLY up in the air???  It would seem by now it should be settled!

 

 

 

 

Very basic question about "Phase 1" of the massive Casino plans: Do plans call for the Horseshoe Casino to continue in the Higbee Building when the huge complex of Phase II is open? I can't seem to get a handle on this; some seem to be saying the 350 million renovation etc. on Public Square is for an approx. "two-year" project, while others are implying there will be the two facilities indefinitely. Of course if some of the $350M goes to slot machines, etc. that will be moved to Huron then the expensive seems less massive. But then any renovation/restoration to the old Higbee's sounds like the Casino will remain there for many years.

Is this question TOTALLY up in the air???  It would seem by now it should be settled!

 

 

 

 

Scroll up. This is not snark or meant to be mean, but did you read any of the posts from the last 25 hours?

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/02/rock_ventures_plans_for_higbee.html

There are conflicting reports in the media.

 

Twice I heard on WTAM late last nite that Higbees was a "temporary" casino. 

 

Also, I read yesterday that original, ornate Higbees fixtures are still in storage but will not be reused. Today I just read that some are in fact being used.

 

?????

 

 

Very basic question about "Phase 1" of the massive Casino plans: Do plans call for the Horseshoe Casino to continue in the Higbee Building when the huge complex of Phase II is open? I can't seem to get a handle on this; some seem to be saying the 350 million renovation etc. on Public Square is for an approx. "two-year" project, while others are implying there will be the two facilities indefinitely. Of course if some of the $350M goes to slot machines, etc. that will be moved to Huron then the expensive seems less massive. But then any renovation/restoration to the old Higbee's sounds like the Casino will remain there for many years.

Is this question TOTALLY up in the air???  It would seem by now it should be settled!

 

 

 

 

Scroll up. This is not snark or meant to be mean, but did you read any of the posts from the last 25 hours?

I dunno...$350 million for "temporary?"

 

Doesn't sound exactly right.  Me thinks it's not going to be too temporary.

The money says it's not going to be temporary, but I thought the state constitution only allowed the one casino to be built in Cleveland.

Sounds like Gilbert et al want to keep their options open.  Hard to blame them.  Didn't two of the Detroit casinos open as "temporary" and then never move?

^ ^^ I think it's the state constitutional issue that's causing the confusion.

 

Lawyers must be worried over what "connected" really means. If Phase 1 is connected to Phase 2 it's arguably one casino. If they're considered two separate buildings under the constitution, there is a potential legal roadblock.

There are conflicting reports in the media.

 

Twice I heard on WTAM late last nite that Higbees was a "temporary" casino. 

 

Consider the source.  Late night AM radio?.... especially WTAM...

 

 

The money says it's not going to be temporary, but I thought the state constitution only allowed the one casino to be built in Cleveland.

 

I believe Gilbert & Co. think/know they can skirt around that by somehow "connecting" the Higbee's building to the new build on Huron.  How exactly they do that is beyond me, but you have to think with that kind of investment they have something in mind.

You guys are killing me... Here's a sure-fire way for all of you to find out what's what: wait and see.

There are conflicting reports in the media.

 

Twice I heard on WTAM late last nite that Higbees was a "temporary" casino.

 

Consider the source. Late night AM radio?.... especially WTAM...

 

 

The money says it's not going to be temporary, but I thought the state constitution only allowed the one casino to be built in Cleveland.

 

I believe Gilbert & Co. think/know they can skirt around that by somehow "connecting" the Higbee's building to the new build on Huron. How exactly they do that is beyond me, but you have to think with that kind of investment they have something in mind.

Somebody just needs to get their hands on the new language in the constitution to determine the definition of "connected"; I would be shocked if that's not clearly defined.

 

I still think that Gilbert wants to add a Hotel to the project sooner, rather than later.  However, I believe he can't until the existing downtown hotel's reach an average of 75% occupancy for one consecutive year, pretty sure that's how it was worded.  So, he builds the cough cough, "temporary" casino, shuffles his feet a little on the "permanent" casino, allows the hotel occupancy to rise DT to 75% threshold for the required time, then adds a hotel to the bigger casino.

 

Just trying to add all of this up..  These people are not dumb and they do not throw money at projects, they know exactly what they want, but aren't going to show all of their cards up front.

 

Also curious if the larger, permanent casino will also be a "Horseshoe" or "Caesars"; that probably depends on whether or not a hotel is included..

Ha ha...I'm not getting this from Trivisono or a Bob Frantz editorial! This was reported on the press releases that the WTAM news desk reads every 1/2 hour. Usually pretty reliable source. 

 

Anyhow, my point was simply to stick up for lafont, that there are in fact conflicting reports on the issue.

8-)

 

 

There are conflicting reports in the media.

 

Twice I heard on WTAM late last nite that Higbees was a "temporary" casino. 

 

Consider the source.  Late night AM radio?.... especially WTAM...

 

 

The money says it's not going to be temporary, but I thought the state constitution only allowed the one casino to be built in Cleveland.

 

I believe Gilbert & Co. think/know they can skirt around that by somehow "connecting" the Higbee's building to the new build on Huron.  How exactly they do that is beyond me, but you have to think with that kind of investment they have something in mind.

 

I believe Gilbert & Co. think/know they can skirt around that by somehow "connecting" the Higbee's building to the new build on Huron.  How exactly they do that is beyond me, but you have to think with that kind of investment they have something in mind.

 

Back in my J Crew days at Tower City, we had storage down the hallway where coffee beanery and the English Oak room was/is.  (hope you can picture it)

Anywho, Dillards had a basement entrance there.  Our storage was next to that entrance, and if you followed the hallway it opened to the gaping hope on Ontario. 

 

So, I'm guessing one reason the casino is going into the basement of the Higbees building is to use that path to connect to the casino on the other side of Huron via the "hole"

If they do it, that will be one HELL of a big structure, so maybe another pedestian walkway???

 

(of course, if FCE puts in another hotel there....???)

Does that tunnel go under Landmark?  This is where my confusion lies because it is not like the Higbees building is right accross the street.  It is a few blocks away.

I am not certian, but I *think* the basement goes under prospect and is not square but trapazoidal.  From a 18 year old memory of that view, f it were extended, it would fit up next to landmark, but not cross paths with it.

 

 

I could be completely wrong, but that is how it looked to me at the time.  We were definitely under and on the other side of prospect, looking up to Huron and Ontario

 

MyTwoSense - No, obviously I did not look up at those more recent posts.  I do this at work and race through.  However, at this moment what I'm seeing is there is no set agreement as to the answer to this all-crucial question! 

With all due respect, it takes about as long to write that one could scroll up the recent posts as to write "It's to be temporary," It's to be "permanent," or "It is yet to be determined."

Why is everyone so worried.  If they can not move the casino, we have a very nice $300MILLION dollar casino in the Higbees building.  Since they just spent $85MM on the land, if they can not put a casino there, they will put SOMETHING there, like a hotel, restaurants and shops.  (and yes, a garage)

 

That is the WORST case scenario.  So, calm down everyone

Thank you! It's not a big deal.

 

EDIT: and to answer questions about the accessways below street level... This is a floor plan from 1930 showing the level just below the street. This is the old Cleveland Union Terminal concourse level in the year the station opened (scroll right to see how easily the Higbee building could be connected to the phase II casino). See why it's not such a big deal.....

 

 

Note that package express/baggage driveway that comes in from outside ramp, after making three turns off Huron. The ramp is visible in the graphic below...

 

 

This is what the package express/baggage driveway looked like inside the Cleveland Union Terminal the year that it opened in 1930...

 

From that first drawing, it shows what I remember.  The basement of Higbee's goes under prospect Ave.

From that first drawing, it shows what I remember.  The basement of Higbee's goes under prospect Ave.

 

And, directly off that basement is the baggage/express drive over to and below Huron. So if anyone is worried whether the Higbee's casino and the Phase II casino can be connected in some way, the answer is the connection was there 80 years before the casino, and it's still there!

 

And if that doesn't work, a connection can be built below street level through the open space below where the Sherwin Williams (or, before that, the We Are All Witnesses) banner was hung. Whether that's part of a new building, such as a casino hotel, or something much smaller, it doesn't matter. The point is there are two ways to link Phase I and II with EXISTING infrastructures.

The web page is up.

 

http://www.horseshoe.com/info/cleveland/

So our "temporary" casino will basically be almost the same size as Cincinnati's full one.

The web page is up.

 

http://www.horseshoe.com/info/cleveland/

 

At the risk of sounding negative (sorry MTS), this website seems amateurish.  Check out "meet the general manager."  It brings up his picture.  Really?

I agree as well that the site looks amateurish. Though I have seen a lot worse, the least they could do was proofread it.

 

"Our first-class entertainment destinations will grow Ohio's tourism market with tens of thousands of visitors from around the county."

 

^  Really?..Just the county?

I don't think we should be too hard on it.  The web development folks were probably pushed to put it up so the folks in meetings have something to point people towards.  It's not like they're directing their customers to the page.  As far as I can tell there are zero internal links to either of the Ohio location sites.

Not for nothing, but this is a discussion form, not just a repository for news links and  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: icons.    The truly blind Cleveland.com-style ignorantly negative views do not last long here, and thankfully so.  But legitimate questions and concerns to not deserve to be shouted down with "get the F### outta here" and "we don't know anything, they're the casino experts, just trust them" comments.  We're trying to learn more about this casino, what's going into the Higbee building, is it going to stay, is there enough money for the riverfront plans, etc.  People come to this board to learn more than what the can learn from a press release from Rock and media reports, which often conflict.  We don't come to UrbanOhio to "wait and see", and UrbanOhio users are not the "wait and see" type.  Personally I'm very thankful for that.

Indeed you're right, Matches.  The offending post has been removed.  People, be respectful of your fellow forumers, and of their right to participate in discussion here.  Nobody is above that rule!

what's going into the Higbee building

 

Phase 1 of the Cleveland Horseshoe Casino.

 

is it going to stay

 

It's unclear, but yes, everything points to the fact that it COULD stay as long as it's legally ALLOWED to stay.  And I think once it's open, it will be difficult to find much opposition to allowing it to stay.  But this was not the original plan so that's why not everything is as clearly laid out as you might like it.

 

is there enough money for the riverfront plans

 

Yes.

Not for nothing, but this is a discussion form, not just a repository for news links and  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: icons.    The truly blind Cleveland.com-style ignorantly negative views do not last long here, and thankfully so.  But legitimate questions and concerns to not deserve to be shouted down with "get the F### outta here" and "we don't know anything, they're the casino experts, just trust them" comments.  We're trying to learn more about this casino, what's going into the Higbee building, is it going to stay, is there enough money for the riverfront plans, etc.  People come to this board to learn more than what the can learn from a press release from Rock and media reports, which often conflict.  We don't come to UrbanOhio to "wait and see", and UrbanOhio users are not the "wait and see" type.  Personally I'm very thankful for that.

 

Indeed you're right, Matches.  The offending post has been removed.  People, be respectful of your fellow forumers, and of their right to participate in discussion here.  Nobody is above that rule!

 

Obviously neither of you realize "get the fuck outta here" is a term equated to  "are you serious?", not literally "get the fuck outta here"

 

And sense we all learn, who here has Casino Marketing knowledge & experience??

 

Also, if my "wait and see" is offensive to others, make sure to delete KJP's posts as well.

Am I Cleveland.com negative??  Heck no!

 

I do not work in the casino business directly, but do work in an allied field.  The casino business has been suffering for years--and the expansion into every state in the union is just further segmenting the market for new gamblers and their wallets.

 

So those of us who support the project, the construction, the architecture and it's contribution to Cleveland have every right to question the business model, the website and execution.  This is not Cleveland.com negativity.  It is reality in a city that is struggling to find itself again.

 

 

I realize that I am new here, but I have to agree with Cleburger. There is a difference of being negative and being realistic.  It is a great thing that they are willing to invest a billion dollars into downtown Cleveland, but this has to be a home-run to be successful. Casinos are already becoming ubiquitous and year by year more are being added, which divides the slice of the pie even more.  Once every market has a casino, then what?

I'll start with my typical response to the nay sayers of investments in Cleveland (and to Cleburger and jjames, I understand you are not the usual CDC posters...) which is to say that business executives don't typically invest money in things they expect to fail...  or even consider moderately likely to fail.

 

Successful businessmen do cost-benefit analyses on projects and determine best, worst and most-likely case scenarios.  In the case of the Casino I guarantee that after millions were spent campaigning for the ballot issue to make this legal, developing plans for all three cities' casinos, and finally buying the land to develop Cleveland's casino, Dan Gilbert and Harrah's have it in mind to make a profit.

 

I don't think using phrases such as "this has to be a home-run to be successful" make sense.  What is a home-run?  A million guests a year?  Profitability?  Spin-off success causing the Jacobs to build a new public square tower, Stark to build the WHD plan, and Euclid to be filled from PS to UC by 2015? 

 

In my opinion, qualifying what success is, and what expectations are and should be, is the key to quality discussion and debate in these forums where development (and hopes and dreams :drunk:) are central.

 

 

 

That said, thousands of visitors (foot traffic) coming to Public Square each week will undoubtedly have a halo effect on local restaurants and entertainment.  Once both the Higbees and riverfront casino's are built the stretch between on Ontario will be some of the most valuable land in downtown.  MRN owns some and recent on UO it was posted that Louis Frangos bought up some more of this area.  (We can hope it's not for more parking....)  http://www.allbusiness.com/environment-natural-resources/land-use-development/15443955-1.html.  I think the Casino(s) will act just like the Cavs of recent years, bringing people downtown to patronize restaurants and bars, fill streets with more foot traffic (creating safety) and perhaps continue to shift the stigma of what Cleveland is really like to visitors and suburbanite locals.  Maybe they'll start to see how great this town really is.

^ that's good stuff. You da man Burn!

I'll start with my typical response to the nay sayers of investments in Cleveland (and to Cleburger and jjames, I understand you are not the usual CDC posters...) which is to say that business executives don't typically invest money in things they expect to fail... or even consider moderately likely to fail.

 

Successful businessmen do cost-benefit analyses on projects and determine best, worst and most-likely case scenarios. In the case of the Casino I guarantee that after millions were spent campaigning for the ballot issue to make this legal, developing plans for all three cities' casinos, and finally buying the land to develop Cleveland's casino, Dan Gilbert and Harrah's have it in mind to make a profit.

 

I don't think using phrases such as "this has to be a home-run to be successful" make sense. What is a home-run? A million guests a year? Profitability? Spin-off success causing the Jacobs to build a new public square tower, Stark to build the WHD plan, and Euclid to be filled from PS to UC by 2015?  

 

In my opinion, qualifying what success is, and what expectations are and should be, is the key to quality discussion and debate in these forums where development (and hopes and dreams :drunk:) are central.

 

 

 

That said, thousands of visitors (foot traffic) coming to Public Square each week will undoubtedly have a halo effect on local restaurants and entertainment. Once both the Higbees and riverfront casino's are built the stretch between on Ontario will be some of the most valuable land in downtown. MRN owns some and recent on UO it was posted that Louis Frangos bought up some more of this area. (We can hope it's not for more parking....) http://www.allbusiness.com/environment-natural-resources/land-use-development/15443955-1.html. I think the Casino(s) will act just like the Cavs of recent years, bringing people downtown to patronize restaurants and bars, fill streets with more foot traffic (creating safety) and perhaps continue to shift the stigma of what Cleveland is like more toward the positive.

 

I am not a naysayer nor am I saying that these businessmen do not know what they are doing.  By home-run I meant casinos are going to be everywhere, so it needs to be something different than what is in Pittsburgh and Erie and Detroit.  I am extremely happy that Higbee is being restored and a new building will be going up on the river along with all of the spillover. Cleveland is a great city and this is just going to add to it.

OBVIOUSLY people are responding to cleburger's post, yet fail to realize that my initial post (before his) was deleted, so all posts after do not make sense, nor do they acurately portray my feelings.

 

Unfortunately I cannot remember what wrote.

Look folks, the WORST case scenario is we have a greatly improved intersection at Huron and Ontario, a developed river front with retail space, and a totally renovated portion on the TC complex all on a private ventures dime......and, oh yeah, the inevitable immediate spin off developement.  This is not the CC/MM, infrastructure, or sports complex developments where the public's money is at risk.

^^^ Exactly.  This will either be a win-win situation, or a win-win-win situation....  Just wait, watch and enjoy!

When do renovations begin?  Was that announced?

 

When do renovations begin?  Was that announced?

I found an answer to my own question via google:

"Construction bid packages for the Phase 1 casino plan in the Higbee Building will be issued during the next several weeks, and work will begin soon after."

 

http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2011/02/05/news/nh3605865.txt?viewmode=default

 

 

I have not been to the Casinos in the other cities, but isn't at least PART of what is different here is that it is near many other attractions (Progressive, The Q, Tower City Ampitheater (unless this is being demolished?), East 4th, eventual Medical Mart, etc.? 

 

In addition, I see this as a "keeping up with the Joneses"...other cities have Targets, have sports teams, have aquariums, etc.  We need to, at the very least, have what other competing cities have...and then hopefully more and BETTER. 

 

 

 

The goal is to weave the casino into the existing "urban fabric" of downtown.  That is what the developers believe will separate it from other competing casinos.

The goal is to weave the casino into the existing "urban fabric" of downtown. That is what the developers believe will separate it from other competing casinos.

 

This to me is the most intriguing, and most important aspect of this project.

 

Because I've never seen this demonstrated anywhere before (grew up near Atlantic City), the plan is rightfully under strict scrutiny.

 

At the very least from our UO panel of experts!

I am not up on other casinos as they don't hold much interest for me, but as I understand it, many of them (even those in the heart of the city) mimic, for lack of a better description, big box stores in architecture and character.  As such, I agree that, at least as described in "words" (we have only seen a conceptual rendering), alledged aspiration and location, that the Cleveland casino will be more unique and may actually add to the city.

 

This will be at least true in terms of "competing" Ohio casinos as far as I can tell.  Toledo's appears to be a warehouse nowhere near the Central city...I don't believe that Columbus' (which is in a farther out and as I understand not in a happening area) will not be much better and Cincy's appears to be on a fringe area of downtown.

 

Even with a possible sh%$ty design, the Cleveland location, over looking the river and connected to TC (with a possible front door on Public Square if the "temporary" Higbee casino is kept which I believe will be) is the best of the lot.  Moreover, like mentioned above, it is steps from other major Cleveland attractions.  Right now gamblers will have the choice of two major hotels without even having to go outside (Ritz and Ren.).  The current connectivity to TC just plain makes the Cleveland casino unique without even trying.

 

If indeed words translate into deeds, the second phase could be a show stopper (again a big if at this point).  Great views, plazas over looking the river, street presence and street retail (hopefully in a great design) could transform an admittedly bland stretch of downtown.

 

In any event, as mentioned above, since this is a private venture, it is a win win situation (even with the admitted dilution of the gaming dollar as so many of these places open nation wide).  The only way it could be a lost for the city is if they build a big warehouse on Huron.

Htsguy, very interesting comments. Thanks.

I realize that I am new here, but I have to agree with Cleburger. There is a difference of being negative and being realistic.  It is a great thing that they are willing to invest a billion dollars into downtown Cleveland, but this has to be a home-run to be successful. Casinos are already becoming ubiquitous and year by year more are being added, which divides the slice of the pie even more.  Once every market has a casino, then what?

 

All it means is that these casino-makers can't just built one out in the middle of nowhere (or even in an less desirable part of a city) and say "I built it, here they come." They have to evolve their business module, and in this case, that's what they are doing in Cleveland ... (I don't know if the same can be said for Penn National ... at least in Columbus).

 

The Cleveland plan will be built, from a transportation stand-point, in the middle of downtown.

 

Plus, there's the fact that Gilbert owns the Cavs and he'll do whatever he can (yes, tankning this year) to make them competitive in the future. Hopefully, he'll be able to persuade the Dolan's to sellling him the Indians as well. But those are whole other issues ... though it would be nice having one owner investing tons of money into building a winning product in two sports ... because he knows a large share will head over and spend more money at his casino at least 120 times a year.

 

Anyway, I'm a big supporter of this project, but I believe a lot of its success is drawing people (even if it's only for an hour) from other downtown hotspots. Hopefully, everybody works together to make that as realistic as possible.

From the Akron Beacon Journal

 

<b>EDITORIAL: False promise</b>

 

evelopers of Cleveland's downtown casino can't wait to get rolling. Last week, they announced a makeover of four floors of the historic Higbee Building on Public Square. In about a year, electronic slot machines and table games are expected to be in operation. What will follow in a few years is a $600 million, 16-acre gambling complex on Huron Road, which might end up connected to the Higbee's site and operated jointly.

 

Dan Gilbert, whose gambling company is teaming with Caesars Entertainment Corp., is promoting no less than the transformation of downtown Cleveland, setting an example for urban casinos across the country. The majority owner of the Cavaliers envisions "two-way traffic" with downtown hotels, restaurants and entertainment venues, all benefiting from an estimated 5 million visitors a year.

 

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/news/stock-alert/czr_editorial-false-promise-1475133.html