This article does not really make any point that has not already been made a million times and the arguments in it are pretty weak.  The argument about people not spending their dollars at other establishments does not really matter to me because casino-goers will be mostly suburbanites who divert their dollars from Applebee's.  This does not bother me at all.  The author also mentions all of the negative social ills that come along with a casino.  I agree that there will be some negative effects but i think they will be outweighed by the positives.  The casino is not going to be perfect there are going to be negative consequences that occur because of it.  I don't think Ohio voters are too stupid to realize this and that they just decided that the jobs and economic impact were worth the troubles.

 

Because I've never seen this demonstrated anywhere before (grew up near Atlantic City), the plan is rightfully under strict scrutiny.

 

FWIW, I've seen it done successfully in Europe. Take a look at Casino Wien, in the city center of Vienna, for instance:

 

http://www.casino-urlaub.at/casino-vienna.en.htm

 

It's very tastefully woven into the old-world style of the rest of the street, and if it weren't for the relatively smallish sign on the side of the building, one wouldn't even know it was a casino.

 

Most large-scale developers in the U.S. (not just casino builders) still think the 1950s formula of shiny aluminum/glass office boxes surrounded by parking lots and fountains is the most successful one (for crying out loud, look at what they're _still_ putting up in Beachwood!), so I will be quite impressed if Gilbert's team is able to break the trend and create something truly revolutionary.

That is why I am sorta nervous about the design...right now they are saying all the right things and using the proper "urban" buzz words, but that may not necessarily translate into what we on this board would like to see in terms of a finished product. 

 

If you look on the Cincy casino thread, the developer there claims he is building something unique, unlike other casinos in the nation (which often are just huge boxes surrounded by parking and flashy signage), with pedestrian friendly elements...but apparently his design team's interpretation of this concept is not in line with the local design review board which has many concerns with it (initial renderings do look "messy" and unfocused to me).

 

I would imagine we will probably have to wait another 5-6 months before we start seeing anything concrete in terms of design...I would believe the team is focused on the Higbee Building in the short term.

Having been in several meetings, classes, and design charettes that have included active representation from Rock Gaming (including , I don't think that they are just trying to say the right things. It just seems like they have gone through an awful lot of effort just to woo a few design professionals and students not to have some of the lessons sink in.

 

Not to say we still shouldn't pay attention and keep them on task, mind you...

FWIW, I've seen it done successfully in Europe.

 

Me too - when I was over in London a group of friends joined me for a casino night.  The Casino itself was a building flush with its adjacent structures, and with similar architecture to the city.  You really only knew it was a casino once you were inside.

 

I think the use if the Higbee's building is an absolutely all-star idea, and great indicator of the way this Casino will work.  How maze-like the inside is I can't say, but people will need to enter either by Public Sq. or Prospect, it's impossible that this won't add some quantity to the RTA riders, East 4th visitors, and possible visitors using the Health Line and going to U.C.

 

The key for Cleveland is to get people beyond the myth that there's "nothing downtown" besides the sports teams and the history of a great metropolis.  We need them to show up and have them open their eyes to what is going on down here.  I'm very optimistic about the use of the Casino (at least Phase 1).

Pretty soon they will be saying "There is nothing downtown besides sports teams, big buildings, good restaurants, the theaters, a college, a casino, apartments, condos, historic architecture, tower city, nightclubs, the rock hall, and the science center. There is no reason to be down there."

 

Followed up by, " And theres a million homeless people walking around, asking for money, shooting people right and left, and packs of thugs jumping anybody who even looks at them, its to dangerous now a days to even step foot in downtown cleveland."

The New Orleans Harrah's fits in nicely with the city.  Im hoping the same for our casino

<A Href="http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/02/horseshoe_casino_cleveland_see.html">Horseshoe Casino Cleveland seeking employees with great attitudes and enthusiasm</A>

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The new Horseshoe Cleveland Casino is looking for employees with great personalities - a trait that can't be taught, the general manager says.

 

"We want people with great attitudes who want to come in and deliver a great guest experience and customer service," manager Marcus Glover said.

 

While at least one for-profit school has opened to train card dealers and Cuyahoga Community College may offer programs to train casino workers, Glover said his company primarily relies on in-house training for its employees.

 

"If you don't go through formal training programs it will not exclude you from opportunities in the casino," he said. We want people with great attitudes who want to come in and deliver a great guest experience and customer service."

 

Glover said he would not discourage or encourage people to take courses in gaming or hospitality management before hiring begins later this year. And he plans to meet with Tri-C President Jerry Sue Thornton to discuss educational partnerships.

 

Anybody know what average wages generally are?  I know they will vary depending upon skill and position but lets say a black jack dealer.

Detroit's casinos are unionized, so the pay scales are public record, but that may not reflect wages paid in non-union casinos elsewhere.

In Michigan, the hourly wages (mid 2006) of unionized Casino Workers in the Detroit area were:

 

Job Classification Hourly Wages

 

Cage Cashier $13.26 - $16.57

Slot Floorperson $11.20 - $14.00

Hard count /soft count $13.39 - $16.74

Dealer * $7.10 - $9.92

Valet Attendant* $7.46 - $9.32

Cook  $11.97 - $17.28

Server*  $6.95 - $14.62

Busser  $8.92 - $11.15

Culinary Utility $10.69 - $13.36

Engineer II $19.82 - $24.78

 

*Tips are a major factor in the wages.  The jobs that bring workers in contact with the public tend to have high compensation in tips. An interesting note is that dealers in Las Vegas could earn up to $100,000 per year in salaries plus tips, even though the hourly wage was low.  Dealers in Las Vegas have to share a percentage of their tips with their pit bosses because of the high gains involved.  Opportunities for advancement are strong in this field. Many newly hired employees find jobs as dealers. By acquiring knowledge of other games and having superior job performance, some become floorpersons or boxpersons and eventually become pit bosses.

 

www.michigan.gov/careers/0,1607,7-170-46398-64768--,00.html

I don't know where to post this, so I apologize in advance!  With the new Casino being built and the improvements it will make to Huron, has there ever been any thought to improving the appearance of the Huron Rd. side of the Landmark Office Towers?  I was looking at the area on Google Maps and couldn't help but notice that this side of the building is all loading doors and dumpsters!  It looks very odd, making Huron look like a back alley.  Why was the building designed this way? Could anything be done to improve its appearance?  Because it is such a large and prominent building, it could use some "sprucing up".  There is awesome Art Deco detail all over the building but it really doesn't stand out in it's current state.  Are there any lights on it at night?  Once again, sorry if this is posted in the wrong place!

^I recall this being asked previously on this board and not sure anybody really commented.  Not sure what the answer is, but I doubt the area will turn into anything special, as that stretch is the service area for those office buildings.  I think there might even be a limited amout of VIP parking behind those doors.  I don't see outdoor cafes popping up anytime soon.  Some minor street scaping might help.

^I would like to see the entire length of Huron narrowed by at least one lane when the casino is built.  It seems too much like super highway now and is often difficult to cross.  With so many people in the area they are going to need to calm it down.

It was me

I've brought this up before but didn't seem to hear much of a response...  Has anyone seen or heard of plans/considerations for the north side of Huron road?  Right now if you walk along Huron you see a lot of freight entrances between Ontario and W. 2nd.

 

A few weeks back I brought it up and a few commenters agreed, but yeah, there doesn't seem to be any conversation about what to do with the Northeast side of Huron.

 

Unfortunately the infrastructure doesn't look like it can be altered (at all?).  I wonder how many of those freight doors are used and how frequently.  If they could be consolidated perhaps some innovative engineering could be used to make those multipurpous.

 

I think an easier change would be turning the 6 lanes into 4 (or 5?) which, if coupled with some sort of re-use of the landmark building's bottom floor, could make for bigger lots.

 

 

another question i've been wondering, aside from the appearence of the surrounding casino area, is how ohio law with dictate odds between casino and patrons.  i've heard that vegas is in favor of the patron, while east coast casino laws are more geared towards the casino.

 

anyone have any insight here?

another question i've been wondering, aside from the appearence of the surrounding casino area, is how ohio law with dictate odds between casino and patrons.  i've heard that vegas is in favor of the patron, while east coast casino laws are more geared towards the casino.

 

I assume this would be determined by the Ohio Casino Control Commission. 

 

"Any slot machine or table game authorized in Indiana, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia may be conducted in Ohio casinos with the approval of OCCC.  Subject to the approval of OCCC, casinos are allowed to determine minimum and maximum wagers for gaming, and slot machine payout must be at least 85%."  http://www.lsc.state.oh.us/fiscal/fiscalnotes/128ga/sb0263in.htm

 

And to be clear: there are certainly no casinos around where the odds favor the patrons!  Rule variations in certain table games do shift the odds a little bit.  For example how many decks are used in blackjack and whether or not the dealer hits or stands on soft 17. 

 

 

Cleveland business comment of the day from 3 days ago

 

Combining Thistledown, casino makes sense: Business Comment of the Day

 

"Thistledown is a great location for the new casino rather than downtown Cleveland. It is easier to reach by highway, and there is plenty of parking available, especially if they use the empty mall across the street. It would also revitalize the surrounding communities and spread the wealth better than putting it downtown."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/02/combining_thistledown_casino_m.html

It was me

I've brought this up before but didn't seem to hear much of a response... Has anyone seen or heard of plans/considerations for the north side of Huron road? Right now if you walk along Huron you see a lot of freight entrances between Ontario and W. 2nd.

 

A few weeks back I brought it up and a few commenters agreed, but yeah, there doesn't seem to be any conversation about what to do with the Northeast side of Huron.

 

Unfortunately the infrastructure doesn't look like it can be altered (at all?). I wonder how many of those freight doors are used and how frequently. If they could be consolidated perhaps some innovative engineering could be used to make those multipurpous.

 

I think an easier change would be turning the 6 lanes into 4 (or 5?) which, if coupled with some sort of re-use of the landmark building's bottom floor, could make for bigger lots.

 

At least 2 of the doors service indoor parking.  The remaining doors and docks appear to be used for deliveries of all types and removal of interior construction waste.

 

One hope would be that the casino construction might provide some below grade connections for deliveries that could be used for this building as well.

 

Between all of the deliveries, mega bus stop, people double parking to pick people up from tower city, random dumpsters taking up parking spaces, etc., this stretch is one of the worst roadway experiences downtown for both pedestrians and vehicle traffic.  Although it is far too wide, it effectively operates at 4 lanes for much of the day (3 east bound, and 1 westbound)

Cleveland business comment of the day from 3 days ago

 

Combining Thistledown, casino makes sense: Business Comment of the Day

 

"Thistledown is a great location for the new casino rather than downtown Cleveland. It is easier to reach by highway, and there is plenty of parking available, especially if they use the empty mall across the street. It would also revitalize the surrounding communities and spread the wealth better than putting it downtown."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/02/combining_thistledown_casino_m.html

 

That guy, and others like him, should not come downtown so they can leave the great cities of America for the rest of us to enjoy. They should stay in the suburbs with their baby-boom plastic cartoon architecture, seas of lifeless parking lots and high-mileage lifestyle that's marked-for-death by peak oil. They don't need a casino in the suburbs with the huge gamble they're taking with their lifestyle choice. The casino is fine where it is. Happy motoring!

Cleveland business comment of the day from 3 days ago

 

Combining Thistledown, casino makes sense: Business Comment of the Day

 

"Thistledown is a great location for the new casino rather than downtown Cleveland. It is easier to reach by highway, and there is plenty of parking available, especially if they use the empty mall across the street. It would also revitalize the surrounding communities and spread the wealth better than putting it downtown."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/02/combining_thistledown_casino_m.html

 

That guy, and others like him, should not come downtown so they can leave the great cities of America for the rest of us to enjoy. They should stay in the suburbs with their baby-boom plastic cartoon architecture, seas of lifeless parking lots and high-mileage lifestyle that's marked-for-death by peak oil. They don't need a casino in the suburbs with the huge gamble they're taking with their lifestyle choice. The casino is fine where it is. Happy motoring!

 

Just thought you would like to see how the conversation ended. The guy is so retarded that I thought it was worth sharing. After that no more cleveland.com comments lol.

 

Here is what a guy said in response to his statement

 

"Yeah I am sure that people just can't wait to visit the great citiy of North Randall. It is known as the garden spot in this area. Why you can wear cowboy clothes and boots out there and look like real Americans. Maybe they can get some really star celebrities to show up there like Palin or some other empty headed right winger and make it like a real good old country and western type of place.

 

You know you should get out of your burb a little more. Having the casino downtown would link it to other entertainment and dining areas. Out in the sticks it would be just another place for people who live in real cities something to laugh about as the slow witted here will still be trying to dance to Tammy and George Jones records."

 

And this is what the originals poster said back

 

"I forgot that there are no restaurants anywhere except downtown. Plus the suburbs don't provide the pleasure of overpaying for parking. I'm sure out-of-towners will much more prefer to sit in traffic rather than having a shorter / quicker commute to an area which provides easy access to a wider variety of cuisines and a choice of music instead of all the thump-thump of downtown."

 

 

 

 

^...and the twain shall never meet!

As an aside, then I'll drop it, the racetrack has thrived there all along across from Randall Park.  Look what it's done for the surrounding community!  I'm sure a casino will reinvent the area....  :roll:

It doesn't matter because it's not happening.  Someone might as well write an article about how the Medical Mart should be built in Beachwood.

Actually the reply could have been quite simple.  The constitution says it has to be built downtown on a particular parcel.  End of story.

Yep. The developer wanted to invest $600 million downtown, not in North Randall or any other suburb. But some anonymous guy who thinks that parking should be free (yet I'll bet he claims to be a free marketeer) knows better than a man who has built multi-billion-dollar businesses where to invest his money.

 

That is why cleveland.com is not a useful source of information or debate:  the ignorant tend to scare off the knowledgeable.

 

That is why cleveland.com is not a useful source of information or debate:  the ignorant tend to scare off the knowledgeable.

 

And I bet the abundance of ignorance sways those that are in favor of many projects downtown because the negativity is rammed down their throats to where they finally cave and say "hmmm, it must be a waste.  You are right ol ingnorant one"

Yep. The developer wanted to invest $600 million downtown, not in North Randall or any other suburb. But some anonymous guy who thinks that parking should be free (yet I'll bet he claims to be a free marketeer) knows better than a man who has built multi-billion-dollar businesses where to invest his money.

 

That is why cleveland.com is not a useful source of information or debate:  the ignorant tend to scare off the knowledgeable.

 

I just love the part where he said their is a wider variety of food and music in North Randall then downtown.

I've never been to Detroit's casinos but aren't they more secluded? Not just only within themselves but aren't they not as close to the heart of downtown as ours will be?

 

Casino Blessing or Curse? Cleveland Learns From Detroit

 

DETROIT — As Cleveland tries to bounce back from tough economic times, some say a new casino could be the spark to make that happen. The city of Detroit has had casinos for more than a decade. What has it done for them?

 

Many people say casinos have done great things for Detroit. But there are others who wonder about the benefit. The city still has high unemployment, a declining population and many blighted neighborhoods.

 

The manufacturing city known for the Motown sound and the Big Three automakers has fallen on hard economic times in recent years.

 

More than ten years ago, three casinos were built in the city: MGM Grand Detroit, Motor City and Greektown. Brian Holdwick, with the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation, admits the gambling centers are not a magic fix for the city's problems, but he says they are a major help....

 

http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-casino-look-at-detroit-pros-cons-kf-txt,0,7676248.story

They have one in Greektown, which is sorta like E4th here, but the other two are on the western fringe of downtown.

327 is correct.  Greektown is in the heart of an entertainment district, MGM and Motor City are more on the fringes.

 

I can say that Greektown is the model for what NOT to do in Cleveland.  The casino there is based mainly on the attached parking ramp ferrying suburbanites into the building and trapping them there.  There is very little street-level interaction with the existing community.

While I can think of all the "wrong" things they can do (offer nearly direct access from the highway, to a parking garage, to a seat at the poker table; fill the casino with restaurants, bars, and other amenities that will keep people in one place; and others) I'm sort of at a loss for what they can do to incorporate the Casino into the city's "fabric".

 

Short of putting slot machines on the sidewalks (sporadically placed around town), a Casino is still a self contained entertainment center, much like a stadium.  Granted East 4th restaurants do really well when the Cavs (err... bear with me) play in town -- but a lot of that is people watching the game and not going into the Arena.  People won't be watching the gambling from local bars.

 

So while I'm in support of this Casino -- and think the first things I mentioned certainly need to be avoided to make this less of a vacuum -- I'm not really convinced there are policies and design elements that make the Casino an engine of activity a source of significant spillover- economic activity (it will have some, no doubt).  The article about the Detroit Casinos makes the claim that people didn't want to spend their money at restaurants, on tips, or on beer -- but on gambling.  I'm inclined to agree (if I go downtown to go gambling with $100, I probably don't want to drop $40 at Chinato first. 

 

Lastly -- I think the Higbee's Casino has the best chance of keeping flow/street life/economic activity moving.  I'd be concerned the "permanent" location in an otherwise new "disconnected" (Tower City walkway or not) site might encourage a siloed visit.

Granted East 4th restaurants do really well when the Cavs (err... bear with me) play in town -- but a lot of that is people watching the game and not going into the Arena.  People won't be watching the gambling from local bars.

 

I really don't think this is true.  I don't know too many people going to East 4th to simply watch a Cavs game on TV unless it's a playoff game or another special game, like the Heat.  The attitude toward the Casino may be different, but people need to eat.  And as long as there are good restaurant within walking distance of the casino people will still go to them.  The additional traffic is only going to help downtown business IMO.

 

Now if they do end up closing the Higbee casino when the new building opens it could be a different story.  With connected parking and the TC food court only footsteps away could see *less* traffic spilling out to E4th and the WHD.

I predict that a lot, if not most, of the casino patrons will be people who don't visit downtown regularly at present.... and a lot, if not most, of those who do presently go downtown, won't become regular patrons of the casino.

 

As far as weaving the casino into the urban fabric, it is not so complex.  Don't build it with a buffer zone of parking.  Make it interact with the street.  Put it within spitting distance of other popular attractions.  I think they have all that covered.

I think that East 4th Restaurants and Warehouse District establishments wont be hurt by the Casino. They already seem to have a fairly strong customer base, I just dont see the casino taking it away. People need to eat, and not everyone will want to eat at the Casino buffet. Also, even if the casino goers never leave the building, they were most likely not the people coming down and supporting our businesses before anyways so its not like East 4th is losing customers, they just aren't gaining any new ones(which im sure they will).

I predict that a lot, if not most, of the casino patrons will be people who don't visit downtown regularly at present.... and a lot, if not most, of those who do presently go downtown, won't become regular patrons of the casino.

 

I was thinking the same thing.  I have a hard time believing that the typical person who sits in front of a slot machine for hours on end is the same person who would frequent E. 4th.  Seems like different personalities.

Completely different personalities.  I've never understood the dilemma with casinos - they are totally different markets than anything else we have downtown, and there is no way they're going to just eat up competitor's business. 

I think they will both benefit off each other. You might get frequent restaurant goers who after a meal decide to go check out the casino and maybe spend a little money, and you might get people from the suburbs who come down to the casino and heard good things about east 4th but never actually came and checked it out.

You might get people from the suburbs who come down to the casino and heard good things about east 4th but never actually came and checked it out.

 

By far the best thing about the temporary location is it's location on Public Square.  I just hope the design/layout encourages guests to see the square while walking in (maybe only have the inside Terminal Tower/Higbees entrance open some of the time? [cold months]), so it's a bit of a challenge to get from Shaker Square to a slot machine without seeing the surrounding...  you know.... CITY!  :-)

As you can see, Higbees and East 4th are really close. And even the permanent casino isn't far away and you could also walk through tower city, making the outside walk shorter.

 

I really just wanted to use this new feature. :lol:

 

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.498373,-81.692255&spn=0.007875,0.019269&t=h&z=16

and if the surface lot on east 4th and Huron ever got developed, the new casino and east 4th would be right next to each other. 

Im not sure how much and increase in downtown traffic would hurt local business. even if all the new people that come downtown never left the casino, the people that currently come downtown would probably still patronize those establishments.

Cleveland casino operators ink 5-year lease with Forest City at downtown's Higbee building

Published: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 8:33 AM    Updated: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 9:01 AM

  By Michelle Jarboe, The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND -- The operators of a planned downtown casino have signed a five-year lease to use the historic Higbee building as the first phase of their gaming hall.

 

Forest City Enterprises Inc., which owns the former department store building, said that Rock Ohio Caesars Cleveland LLC has signed a five-year lease on 303,000 square feet of the basement, first, second and third floors. The lease includes extension options at the property, part of the Tower City Center complex on Public Square.

 

Rock Gaming LLC and Caesars Entertainment recently announced plans to open a $350 million first phase of the Cleveland Horseshoe Casino in the Higbee building in early 2012. At the time, neither Forest City nor gaming executives would disclose lease terms.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/02/cleveland_casino_operators_ink.html

^Interesting.  Is there any indication that the new facility is a "go" for sure?  If I were putting up the money for these casinos I would take a wait and see approach.  As in wait and see how the "temporary" casino performs before sinking another $600 million into a facility that may not be necessary.

 

I want to see the new facility built as much as the next guy, but it doesn't seem like a smart business decision to start construction on a $600 million facility when you have the opportunity to gauge the market with the cheaper, "temporary" facility.  I would be very surprised if Gilbert started construction on the new building before the temporary casino has been open for at least 1 year.

Seeing how they spent $85MM, I think they will build for sure

Agree with Punch....but also don't see construction beginning on the new casino for a couple of years, but not for the reasons suggested by Hootenany.  While I am sure they have been doing preliminary design work for some time, clearly the focus right now is going to be on the Higbee renovations and getting it up and running.

 

Moreover, the Huron site has many design challenges (below parking, proximity to the river, connection to the Higbee Building, attempting to limit disruptions to TC during construction and the fact that they are at least talking about doing something unique on the site, to name a few).  I think this means it may be quite some time before the various professionals (architectural and engineering) have a workable design in hand and then of course the inevitable work needed to gear up for construction.

Seeing how they spent $85MM, I think they will build for sure

 

Sunk cost.

^Interesting.  Is there any indication that the new facility is a "go" for sure?  If I were putting up the money for these casinos I would take a wait and see approach.  As in wait and see how the "temporary" casino performs before sinking another $600 million into a facility that may not be necessary.

 

I want to see the new facility built as much as the next guy, but it doesn't seem like a smart business decision to start construction on a $600 million facility when you have the opportunity to gauge the market with the cheaper, "temporary" facility.  I would be very surprised if Gilbert started construction on the new building before the temporary casino has been open for at least 1 year.

 

I thought that the language of the amendment required that they spend at least $600 million on the Cleveland casino.

I think you are confusing the Wilmington casino ballot measure with this one.  That amendment would have required a $600M investment.  The current amendment only requires $250 per facility, I believe, as an initial investment.

 

I agree that there is no way Gilbert and Co. would have paid $85M for the river site if they were not going to build on it.  I suppose you could be suspicious that they will eventually say it is unbuildable for a casino and propose another use, but I doubt it.  I think the concern is how long it will take.  I have heard more than once from what I would consider the best of sources that building anything of significance on that land is going to be an absolute nightmare.

isnt the agreement that gilbetrt would have to wait five years before he could build a hotel?  Would the use of a temperary casino for five years count towards that? maybe he wants to wait it out to build a hotel/casino at some point.

 

Also, I am not a fan of them calling the temporary casino 'Phase one'.  It seems like a Phase II never happens

Hmmmm.... interesting point.

isnt the agreement that gilbetrt would have to wait five years before he could build a hotel?  Would the use of a temperary casino for five years count towards that? maybe he wants to wait it out to build a hotel/casino at some point.

 

Also, I am not a fan of them calling the temporary casino 'Phase one'.  It seems like a Phase II never happens

I thought the wording was that the existing hotels had to sustain a 75% occupancy rate (or higher) for one year before a casino hotel could be built.

 

I don't remember reading that it had to achieve the 75% threshold for five years.  I'm 100% certain that it had to do with the existing hotels achieving/sustaining a certain occupancy rate threshold, if they didn't meet the threshold, a new casino hotel could not be built, just not completely sure how long the occupancy rate had to be sustained (1 year, 3 years, 5 years, etc.).