I think you guys are overthinking this.  Maybe Gilbert just wants to test the waters before putting in the permanent casino.  Maybe he doesn't intend on phase 2 due to the economy's instability? Well, so what?  Better something rather than nothing. Besides, who really  loses in that situation anyhow, it's not like other businesses are clamoring for that space.  I just wouldn't worry about it

 

A new building would be nice, and most likely will be built, but I think the Higbee building actually provides a better location with better connection to the rest of downtown. If needed expansion and they stay in the Higbee building, they could possibly eat up more floors and if they want to(and allowed) to build a hotel they could build one above the tracks where the Sherwin Williams mural is.

I think you guys are overthinking this.  Maybe Gilbert just wants to test the waters before putting in the permanent casino.  Maybe he doesn't intend on phase 2 due to the economy's instability? Well, so what?  Better something rather than nothing. Besides, who really  loses in that situation anyhow, it's not like other businesses are clamoring for that space.  I just wouldn't worry about it

 

It would be really nice to fill in that piece of downtown land.  It would be a really nice "end cap" to the southern end of downtown and something like this is really the only chance we'll have to build anything on that hill. 

 

I think that Gilbert does intend to build on the land, but I'm not 100% sold that he's going to build a casino right away.  Personally, I think he's going to feel out the market for the casino in the Higbee location while designing the new building.  If the market doesn't prove to be as strong as he initially thought I think he will build the parking garage only and hold off on the casino until "market conditions improve" at which point he would smack the casino on top of the parking garage.  He can make some good money on parking at that location so I think the parking garage is for sure going to be built.  I just have concerns about the casino.  We'll see...

the good thing is that even if he 'screws' us by not building a new casino, we will have a 350 million dollar one right on public square.

EGadz has this site been reduced to conspiracy theories?. What the H?

the good thing is that even if he 'screws' us by not building a new casino, we will have a 350 million dollar one right on public square.

I think Gilbert really wants that casino directly across the street from the arena he manages, and not way down a "hamster tube" walkway and then up a couple of staircases.

EGadz has this site been reduced to conspiracy theories?. What the H?

 

Not a conspiracy at all.  There should be serious concerns about the viability of a nearly $1 billion casino investment in Cleveland.  Fact is that the Cleveland casino was originally projected to be the largest market in Ohio, but recent projections dropped Cleveland from first to last in estimated "casino seats."  (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110214/BIZ01/102140321/Casino-estimates-shrink)  Yes, even behind Toledo.  This gives me reason to be concerned that the $350 million "temporary" casino won't be so temporary and makes me question whether Gilbert will be willing to spend another $600 million on casino seats that may not be necessary based on the most recent projections.  I'm sure he would prefer to have a new building right next to the Q and Progressive Field, but will it make business sense?  I have my doubts...

EGadz has this site been reduced to conspiracy theories?. What the H?

 

Not a conspiracy at all.  There should be serious concerns about the viability of a nearly $1 billion casino investment in Cleveland.  Fact is that the Cleveland casino was originally projected to be the largest market in Ohio, but recent projections dropped Cleveland from first to last in estimated "casino seats."  (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110214/BIZ01/102140321/Casino-estimates-shrink)  Yes, even behind Toledo.  This gives me reason to be concerned that the $350 million "temporary" casino won't be so temporary and makes me question whether Gilbert will be willing to spend another $600 million on casino seats that may not be necessary based on the most recent projections.  I'm sure he would prefer to have a new building right next to the Q and Progressive Field, but will it make business sense?  I have my doubts...

 

The temporary casino has been in the works for a long time. If he were so nervous about the permanent casino, then why would he have just spent $88 million for the land and air rights for the permanent casino's location?  The sale of the land and the announcement of the Higbee casino were concurrent.

 

 

EGadz has this site been reduced to conspiracy theories?. What the H?

 

Not a conspiracy at all.  There should be serious concerns about the viability of a nearly $1 billion casino investment in Cleveland.  Fact is that the Cleveland casino was originally projected to be the largest market in Ohio, but recent projections dropped Cleveland from first to last in estimated "casino seats."  (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110214/BIZ01/102140321/Casino-estimates-shrink)  Yes, even behind Toledo.  This gives me reason to be concerned that the $350 million "temporary" casino won't be so temporary and makes me question whether Gilbert will be willing to spend another $600 million on casino seats that may not be necessary based on the most recent projections.  I'm sure he would prefer to have a new building right next to the Q and Progressive Field, but will it make business sense?  I have my doubts...

 

If I'm reading that correctly, it just says Cleveland's temporary casino will be smaller than the other cities final casinos.  Seems to me, its better to undershoot than overshoot with your opening size.

If you took out all the words "worry" "doubt" "doubtful" "concerned" etc. from the posts on this forum it would be half the size. 539]

EGadz has this site been reduced to conspiracy theories?. What the H?

 

Not a conspiracy at all.  There should be serious concerns about the viability of a nearly $1 billion casino investment in Cleveland.  Fact is that the Cleveland casino was originally projected to be the largest market in Ohio, but recent projections dropped Cleveland from first to last in estimated "casino seats."  (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110214/BIZ01/102140321/Casino-estimates-shrink)  Yes, even behind Toledo.  This gives me reason to be concerned that the $350 million "temporary" casino won't be so temporary and makes me question whether Gilbert will be willing to spend another $600 million on casino seats that may not be necessary based on the most recent projections.  I'm sure he would prefer to have a new building right next to the Q and Progressive Field, but will it make business sense?  I have my doubts...

I can't believe I'm the first one to post these! These and other images are up for Design Review tomorrow and on Cleveland Planning Commission's docket Friday.........

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2011/03042011/index.php

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please bring back the frosted malted stand under the escalator on the lower level going out toward the Avenue at Tower City.  Hey, while your at it, bring back Fuddruckers too  :wink:

Funny story about Frosted Malted.. My mom would always go to Tower City/Higbee's growing up and her parents NEVER got her a Frosted Malted. She always wanted one. There is a place out in Lorain that still sells the stuff. And for her birthday recently, my dad tracked down the old glasses somewhere in Elyria I want to say.. and bought a gallon or so of Frosted Malted from Sweet Lorain and gave her a Frosted Malted for her birthday a few years ago! I think it would be an awesome idea to bring back the stand!

So looks like the basement will be all food, I think the coloring is off on the ground floor floorplan because that would be the biggest bathroom ever taking up most of the floor lol. The second floor is mostly gaming and 3rd floor is offices and some gaming

I have no clue how I missed this the first few times but I mistook the Ontario & Prospect side of the building to be the Public Square side of the building.  This casino should do wonders for this intersection and I can only imagine the stretch of Prospect between the casino and East 4th will be filled very soon (hopefully not by parking lots).

^oh yeah...see the demolition thread.

^^what irony

Where's the demolition thread?

Where's the demolition thread?

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7006.0.html

 

Back to the casino.....

Developer wants valet parking, welcome center cattycorner from Higbee casino in Cleveland

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/03/developer_wants_valet_parking.html

 

Rock Ohio Caesars wants to build a parking garage and welcome center on the lots at High and East 2nd Street.  It looks like they worked through Lou Frangos to prevent the parking lot owners from driving up the cost.  They say they plan on building around the Stanley Block building.  So I guess it's saved?

 

 

Maybe Positively Cleveland could take over the welcome center instead of having one at East 4th and Euclid?

 

 

Wait, but they plan on tearing down the Columbia Building on Prospect?!?  Are you kidding me???

 

 

^Discussed in the Cleveland Demolition thread.

^If that is Gilbert's plan for building the casino "into the urban fabric" then I'm going to have to call bullshit.  A letter writing campaign may be necessary to convince Gilbert that this is not in the best interest of the downtown that he claims to want to better.  What a joke...

If they're willing to build around historic structures, and put garage parking over ground-level activity, I don't think this is such a bad deal.  But if the Columbia building has to come down, it's a terrible deal.

Well the Columbua building at least is already considered a landmark. So hopefully that will help save the block

When embarking on game changing developments, something always has to come down.  I hope that building is saved, but I do appreciate the concept of a parking garage with street level activity.  Maybe that going up will save some other gems from coming down for surface lots.

And so it begins....this will be followed of course by an indoor connection to the casino so that patrons do not have to be subject to the "weather" outside.

 

Sounds vaguely like Greektown in Detroit...

^^^From the description in the article this is not going to be a parking garage with "street level activity" like retail or the like...the non parking garage element seems to simiply be the "waiting room" for valet parking (albeit a very nice waiting room which they are sugar coating by calling it a "vistors center"...these guys aren't dumb). 

 

As I mentioned in the demolition thread, really don't like the way this is being done (through strawmen)...the casino people should have manned up about it from day one and said this is what we need.

 

What other plans that they fear might result in a public outcry are they keeping secret?  I will trust them less in the future.

 

So much for all the glowing things I have said about the casino gang in previous posts.  They are going to have to win over my trust again.

As jborger suggested above, maybe they could accoomodate the CVB's welcome center here, since it's being displaced by the casino itself.

There is truth to the assertion that if the sellers knew it was the casino, they would have charged more.

 

That said, there is plenty of parking nearby.  There is no need to tear down any more buidings for parking lots in this town

You have the May Company Garage and the garage connected to the Q, and the Tower City Garage right there! And you have 515, and the other gateway garages, as well as the 200 public square garage, and PNC's and Fifth Thirds parking garages aren't that far away either. After that we still have tons of other garages, the warehouse district parking lots, and the Muni Lot which people can take the rapid basically straight to the casino. We have plenty of parking available.

You have the May Company Garage and the garage connected to the Q, and the Tower City Garage right there! And you have 515, and the other gateway garages, as well as the 200 public square garage, and PNC's and Fifth Thirds parking garages aren't that far away either. After that we still have tons of other garages, the warehouse district parking lots, and the Muni Lot which people can take the rapid basically straight to the casino. We have plenty of parking available.

 

One thing none of those lots have is direct indoor access to the casino, which I'm guessing is the end game here.

 

The May Company garage would have a chance to make this connection for Gilbert--but I'm also guessing that it is filled up in the daytime with lots of long-term parking clients.

Building a parking deck on the surface lot(s) south of Prospect and east of East 4th will free up capacity in the parking garage at Ontario/Prospect (the old Bailey's Department Store site) from the casino. This isn't a city where we have no open spaces for increasing the capacity for parking without demolishing anything.

 

No more demolitions for parking!

Why are they acting like demolishing the Columbia building will be easy? Also since most of the Casinos traffic will be in the evenings and weekends, whats the big worry. All of the parking spaces taken up by downtown workers will be free during those hours anyways.

^^^I disagree with that.  Even with this morbid idea I cannot see the city allowing a bridge at that intersection, especially if they want to do it on a diagonal (which would be necessary without the cooperation of the May Co garage owners)

 

Also,  all the parking describe is virtually empty during prime time casino hours (nights and weekends) and the Gateway garage even has a far amount of room during the day.  Again there is plenty of parking, just not the kind the casino owners want.

The more I think about it - the more likely it seems that the "larger" casino will not be built behind Tower City.  What would be

the purpose of the new parking structure and valet service in a permanent structure if the new casino is going to include an attached

parking structure?  I'm one of the people beginning to think the Higbee Casino is the only casino ever going to get built. 

^How do you think Gilbert will justify the land purchase then to his stakeholders?

^ It could be. Im not sure what I think about it though. It is a better location. Also it finally fills a large mostly vacant building with a difficult floorplan for other uses. But if it demolishes everything around it for parking then this really blows.

 

Also possible future expansions could be on higher floors if thats possible as well as over the tracks just south of the Higbee building

The more I think about it - the more likely it seems that the "larger" casino will not be built behind Tower City.  What would be

the purpose of the new parking structure and valet service in a permanent structure if the new casino is going to include an attached

parking structure?  I'm one of the people beginning to think the Higbee Casino is the only casino ever going to get built. 

 

You are right in line with my thinking.  I don't think there is a chance another Casino is built either.  When I read "new garage" I called bluff. 

^A couple of weeks ago I would have completely disagreed with you, but more and more I am getting the same vibe, even with the huge land purchase....at least the development is going to be put off a lot longer if it is indeed built on Huron.

^A couple of weeks ago I would have completely disagreed with you, but more and more I am getting the same vibe, even with the huge land purchase....at least the development is going to be put off a lot longer if it is indeed built on Huron.

 

I totally agree.  Like I said a few weeks ago...

 

I think that Gilbert does intend to build on the land, but I'm not 100% sold that he's going to build a casino right away.  Personally, I think he's going to feel out the market for the casino in the Higbee location while designing the new building.  If the market doesn't prove to be as strong as he initially thought I think he will build the parking garage only and hold off on the casino until "market conditions improve" at which point he would smack the casino on top of the parking garage.  He can make some good money on parking at that location so I think the parking garage is for sure going to be built.  I just have concerns about the casino.  We'll see...

 

To answer Hts121, I think he justifies the land purchase to his stakeholders by building a revenue generating parking garage at that location.  Or he may build his "free" parking garage here for casino customers that WILL NOT pay to park.  Regardless, I can't imagine the city will allow them to demolish a block of historic buildings for a boutique parking garage.  Why can't they work out a deal with the city to add a valet lane right in front of the main entrance on Prospect or on Public Square?  Then they can work out deals with existing parking structures for the required space.  This valet garage and waiting area seems immensely unnecessary.

The proposed parking facility looks to be accessible to both the short- and long-term casino locations.

 

Question: Why not demolish the Gateway deck on Ontario and replace it with a larger facility that is taller and occupies the whole block???

More stupidity. More short sighted-ness.

 

This is a F***ing embarrassment.

I don't understand where all of the skepticism comes from regarding the permanant site. We knew from very early on about the temporary site. What evidence does anyone have that it will not happen. Gilbert has been pretty open so far regarding the timetable. Unless the money just isn't there anymore I just can't see Gilbert pulling out.

This "valet garage" is what is changing my mind (and it has changed my mind in a short period of time...a couple of weeks ago I believed the land purchase was clear evidence of intent to build a permanent facility on Huron in the near future).  It is clearly a "valet garage" since it is so small (did I read 250 spaces), has special valet lanes and a proposed posh valet waiting area which they are calling a "visitors center".  (Yes KJP a regular garage in this area could service both sites, but not necessarily the Huron site if it is a valet garage...farther away than Higbee entrance and have to cross wider streets to get to front door of Huron site...not a classic valet situation for the Huron site.)

 

If a Huron Building is built they will have to establish a new valet setup for that building.  So why spend all this $$ on a valet garage for the Higbee Building if in a few years the main valet arrangement will be somewhere on Huron or below it.  I guess it could just turn into a regular old parking garage to service both buildings for the peons who don't valet, but this seems like a pretty significant cost (purchase of property, demolition, special construction) for an alledged short period of time.

 

Give me a firm statement (rather than a lot of silence lately) regarding Huron and I could very easily change my mind.  I am like that...very wishy washy.

You are assuming that the Higbee building and the permanent site will not somehow be connected.  I also think you underestimate the traffic control / pedestrian friendly measures that are bound to take effect at the Huron intersection shoudl the permanent site be built.

Tower City Amphitheater is currently being disassembled.  Would be a shame if that was for naught.

Tower City Amphitheater is currently being disassembled.  Would be a shame if that was for naught.

 

It is?  And what does the TC Ampitheater have to do with the casino?  Are they putting a surface lot there?

Oh man....I wonder if this is a permanent move?

 

The irony here is that the area alongside the river COULD be a fantastic recreation area complimenting the casino. The ampitheater is a big part of it.  If you've ever been to an event down there you know exactly what I'm talking about. It would be the outdoor component to Phase II and that could integrate the city with our river that we love to hate so much.

 

Why do I have the feeling that we're going to sacrifice way too much in the narrow-minded pursuit more parking?

 

Tower City Amphitheater is currently being disassembled.  Would be a shame if that was for naught.

 

It is?  And what does the TC Ampitheater have to do with the casino?  Are they putting a surface lot there?

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think the site of Tower City will end up being an entrance and service access to the "permanent" casino, should it be built.

 

Hopefully that means some improvements in the surrounding roads and bridges as well.