^The welcome center is simply a nice warm lobby waiting room for those who valet park no matter how it is marketed to those desperate individuals at city hall.

 

The Stanley hating on this board is...well...weird, but I  digress.

 

With the completion of this Welcome Ctr, will the under-construction Visitors Center that is currently taking shape about 2 blocks away be rendered unnecessary??

How many welcoming centers do we need? And there is yet another one going in the 200 PS Bldg Huntington Building just 1 block away.

 

The best welcome to a city is pedestrian-oriented street level retail, restaurants with traffic calming measures.

I believe the 'Visitor Center' as you call it on 4th is for the entire city while the 'Welcome Center' is only for the Casino. There is also an 'International Welcome Center' going into the Huntington building (get used to it people!) They have 3  unique purposes.

I'm not hating on the Stanley. I'm frustrated by the crap that Rock is proposing to swaddle it in, and isolating it in a way that says "fine, here's your f-ing building. Good luck." We've kept an historic building, then cut it off from the rest of the city by a 4 (5?) lane road on one side and parking decks on the other three. If that's the case, I'd rather it have a dignified death, than death by disconnection.

Is there any evidence that the Columbia building can be successfully rehabbed?  Is there any legitimate desire to do so?  Is it economically feasible?

 

What needs to be rehabbed?  There were businesses in there just a year ago so it can't be that bad.  What's the problem with the building?

 

I don't have the answers, which is why I asked.  I infer from your post that the businesses are now gone.  Why did they leave?  Regardless, I guess "rehabbed" was not the right term.  I was actually thinking of a conversion / re-purpose.  Have there been any proposals, studies, etc.?

Chancellor University (formerly Myers University) occupied that building until recently.

 

http://www.chancelloru.edu/about/history.php

Maybe somebody mentioned this already.  Is tearing down the Columbia the big new development that Gilbert talked about last month?  If so I have to say I'm a bit disappointed.

^I think we all decided that it was the Browns lakefront plans he was talking about.

^I think we also decided that bumsquare was being sarcastic.

I don't have the answers, which is why I asked.  I infer from your post that the businesses are now gone.  Why did they leave?  Regardless, I guess "rehabbed" was not the right term.  I was actually thinking of a conversion / re-purpose.  Have there been any proposals, studies, etc.?

 

For what it's worth, an appraiser said the Columbia Building is in better shape than the Ameritrust Building, according to an article in today's PD.  Myers University was in the building before moving to Chester and East 40th.

^I saw that and was going to post the quote as well.  I recall that Myers did a major re-hab to the building when they took it over about 12-15 years ago.  I am sure it is in better shape than many of the buildings downtown.

 

I imagine that tenats were forced out (or given sweet heart deals to move out if their lease was not up) once Gilbert's interests bought the building with the intention of tearing it down (of course pure speculation on my part).

My guess is that if MMPI were trying to knock down these buildings to build a "welcome center" the PD would be howling at the idea

 

The PD seems to give Gilbert the same scrutiny it gives Forest City

^Agree....Steve Litt seems to be stragely silent regarding all this (either pro or con...my guess is that he would be con).

i've heard he is doing something with this...

^I saw that and was going to post the quote as well.  I recall that Myers did a major re-hab to the building when they took it over about 12-15 years ago.  I am sure it is in better shape than many of the buildings downtown.

 

I imagine that tenats were forced out (or given sweet heart deals to move out if their lease was not up) once Gilbert's interests bought the building with the intention of tearing it down (of course pure speculation on my part).

 

I am a 1992 alumnus of Myers University when it was called Dyke College (it had that name since 1941 -- the school itself had been around since 1848). After four years at Kent State, I finished my degree work at this building on Prospect. It was getting a little rough around the edges in 1992 and needed a rehab. A big donation was made by David N. Myers in the mid-1990s, so the school's name was changed to Myers College in 1995. Much of the donation was used to renovate the building. Then the school's administrators started getting sloppy, including some questionable expansions that put the school in deep financial trouble. It was very sad for me to see this happen.

 

And it would be even sadder to see the Columbia Building on Prospect torn down. From my two-year experience of studying within its walls, it is one of the most solidly built structures downtown, and after its revitalization only 15 years ago, it would be a tremendous waste to demolish it. It reminds me of the Park Building on Public Square. I believe both buildings are equally substantial. And like the Park Building, the Columbia Building could make for a wonderful rehab into housing. It probably wouldn't take much investment.

Given the demand, why are developers not jumping at the chance to convert this building into apartments?  Seems like that would be a no-brainer, unless there is something we don't know.  I would bet a ready, willing, and able developer could sway the commission to reject the demolition request.

^ Could be the owner. Didn't the Marons want to buy the 4 buildings across from Flannery's but the owner doesn't want to sell them. He wanted to demolish them for parking if I remember correctly.

 

Those 4 buildings and the Columbia building could have acted as the perfect extension of East 4th Street

Maybe you should bring Maron to the next meeting.

 

Who is the owner?  Has Gilbert acquired the property or does he maybe hold an option on it?

I think it was Frangos, who was working with Gilbert

"USA PARKING SYSTEMS" is the owner

 

Also I found that the owner of the building the Marons tried to buy(I believe they did) is owned by a parking company as well.

That stretch of Prospect needs to get out of the hands of parking lot companies and into the hands of developers!

Hts - I understand your line of questioning with regard to the sheer economics behind these decisions.  I agree, most of the time, that the people in the business of commercial development are great actors in the economics of a city, and thus if they are not rehabbing a building like the Columbia then one wouldn't be too far off assuming the costs outweigh the benefits.

 

That said, we know this isn't always true.  It honestly might be that the rehab could be profitable and taken on at some point, but there isn't a developer *today* who is willing or able.  Perhaps the Marons have the Columbia on the drawing board for East Fourth "stage 11" just as I'm sure at one point they've dreamed up what to do with the parking lot on E4th.  That doesn't mean they have the means today.  Demolition, however, is permanent, while lack of credit/opportunity can be temporary.

 

Beyond all of this talk I think it's most important we understand the Rock Ventures true timeline for Phase 2 of this Casino.  As others have said, this really seems more and more like Phase 1 is the only, or primary, phase.  If the Casino along Huron was a real development staged for next year, they could have all sorts of VIP parking and drop off lanes on the drawing board without touching the Stanley block. 

 

This skyway creating/Columbia Demolishing/multi-lane anti-pedestrian monstrosity (in my humble opinion  :wink:) is permanent and from the point of view of enhancing the urban quality of Cleveland, seems 180* from what modern urban theory promotes.

I am just spit balling ideas which may actually persuade, and don't merely stroke at the heartstrings of preservationists.  You will not find one post of mine that denies the Columbia's 'potential'.

 

I also disagree with your view on "Phase 1".  It is just that, "Phase 1".  Your doubts seem to arise out of the thought process that this is a "temporary" casino.  But if Gilbert sinks $350 mill into a 'temporary' casino, I will jump right on board and call him nuts myself.  The only way I think we will not see 'Phase 2' is if the Governor continues to affront the constitution and the courts allow him to do that.

Sometimes I think people often lose sight of how difficult it is for developers to work in a "low cost of living" area like Cleveland. If people wonder why development is slow, its because most of them require some really complex and creative ways to attract equities/subsidies to make the developments viable. Residential property in Downtown Cleveland fetches about $1 - $1.30 psf for rental rates. In other cities where the costs of living are substantialy higher the same units easily get $3 psf and upwards. Meanwhile the costs of construction are relatively the same. Labor rate can be a little different but not so much that it totally sways the pro forma. So its hard enough to make these developments work as it is, let alone if you have a property owner that has an inflated idea of what his building is worth. Acquisition costs alone can make a deal unfeasible here. This why most everything you see renovated is a complicated web of tax credits, easements, city programs & initiatives, etc. In Chicago, Boston, SF, NY, etc. its easy to rehab a building and make money on it.... here it can be down right hard not to simply lose your shirt. Thats why some of these buildings haven't simply been "snapped up and converted" even though there's demand. There's demand, but people expect a certain price point here. That price point makes it really hard to get things done most of the time.

 

And yes Frangos/USA bought the building on behalf of rock cesars.

The Higbee's Casino is considered temporary in a number of articles:

 

http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-news-cleveland-temporary-casino,0,7539381.story

 

I'm not convinced this is accurately being reported/communicated, or maybe there's ambiguity for a reason, but either way if there's even a chance this first Casino site will be closed down in the next few years we shouldn't allow this kind of construction/demolition to take place.

 

^^Definitely saving that post for other threads in which I have (unsuccesfully) tried to make the same point.  Thanks.

Applying the "low cost of living prevents development" axiom outside of Cleveland, one would think that development's not even possible in the developing world.  Cleveland may have low price points for the US but I would imagine we're well above the global median.  And we're well below it in terms of recent urban development.  I find the part about the greedy landowners somewhat more persuasive.  It only takes a few of those, sometimes just one, to really mess up a local market.   

How much new construction housing is being built and financed by the private sector in the developing world?  How does their labor cost structure compare to ours?  Are material costs comparable?  Building codes?  Acquisition costs?  Property rights?

Heres Mr. Litts input:

 

Rock Gaming changes course on Cleveland casino by asking for an overhead walkway and demolition of the Columbia BuildingPublished: Thursday, May 19, 2011, 10:45 PM    Updated: Thursday, May 19, 2011, 10:46 PM

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Instead of a royal flush, it feels like a royal switcheroo.

 

Rock Gaming LLC, the developer of the new Cleveland casino, unveiled plans in February showing that it intended to do a gentle and respectful job of turning the historic downtown Higbee Building, once a legendary department store, into its Phase I casino.

 

Now, just a few months later, the company has changed course in significant ways.

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/05/post_5.html

 

 

I am at least glad to see a rendering on how the skywalk attaches to the Higbee's facade.  Not particularly a fan of the design interaction

Comments...

well, after reading countless Minneapolis tunnel references on cleveland.com, I am glad I go here to discuss things instead of there. 

His article paints the situation as pretty bleak. It seems like the city is going to roll over and let Rock Gaming do whatever they want.

When forbes said "The gaming customer is not comfortable parking outside a certain radius without climate control and security", my stomach churned.

It seems like the city is going to roll over and let Rock Gaming do whatever they want.

 

The Beggars can't be choosy stance... it sometimes rears it's ugly head in cleve development.

Why is it that The Tower City Center parking is inadequate for the casino clientele?  I would think Forest City would be excited to have Rock Gaming use their facility to pass through. I remember going to Higbee's long ago and parking was never a problem. The developers promised a new way to think about casinos, unfortunately it sounds like that idea is vanishing.  Why is Rock Gaming insistent this parking structure must be built for the casino to continue.  If the casino was touted with such fanfare why not see if the parking structure is even necessary. If the need is there than lets consider a plan that knits The Gateway  community together rather than isolate one component . Also if parking was such an issue shouldn't Rock Gaming have figured this out before the building process began? All the recent development along withThe New Group Plan Commission has talked about the importance of connecting all. This parking structure/skywalk does nothing to move this idea forward. If this comes to be, Dan Gilbert should at least restore the Stanley Block to  show that he believes in the community redevelopment

 

Dan Gilbert has nothing to do with the Stanley, unless something surreptitious is going on à la the Columbia and Stafford.

That was a really weak article.  I don't understand being more upset about the walkway than the demolition.  I hope everyone here who is concerned about the demolitions has sent letters or emails to commission members, because this seems to be gliding along a little bit too smoothly.

I am much more depressed about this situation after reading the Litt article.  I'll be extremely disappointed if the city rolls over and let's them tear down the Columbia so easily.  I'd also be surprised if the decision makers in Columbus allow them to pierce the Higbee Building with the walkway.  But with this group of players who knows.  I'm sure they have the wheels greased everywhere.

That was a really weak article.  I don't understand being more upset about the walkway than the demolition.  I hope everyone here who is concerned about the demolitions has sent letters or emails to commission members, because this seems to be gliding along a little bit too smoothly.

 

Does anyone have the contact information for those who should be contacted.  It is impossible to find on the city website.

How about this little tid bit from the article:

 

"There should be plenty of time to design something great on the riverfront. Forbes said Wednesday that the second phase of the casino wouldn’t be built until 2015 at the earliest - two years later than Rock Gaming has said until now"

 

Why is it that The Tower City Center parking is inadequate for the casino clientele?  I would think Forest City would be excited to have Rock Gaming use their facility to pass through. I remember going to Higbee's long ago and parking was never a problem. The developers promised a new way to think about casinos, unfortunately it sounds like that idea is vanishing.  Why is Rock Gaming insistent this parking structure must be built for the casino to continue.  If the casino was touted with such fanfare why not see if the parking structure is even necessary. If the need is there than lets consider a plan that knits The Gateway  community together rather than isolate one component . Also if parking was such an issue shouldn't Rock Gaming have figured this out before the building process began? All the recent development along withThe New Group Plan Commission has talked about the importance of connecting all. This parking structure/skywalk does nothing to move this idea forward. If this comes to be, Dan Gilbert should at least restore the Stanley Block to  show that he believes in the community redevelopment

 

Because a main source of revenue for the casino is parking, so they more parking they own, the more money they make.  Remember how they wanted to alter the river for more parking spaces?

The Higbee's Casino is considered temporary in a number of articles:

 

http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-news-cleveland-temporary-casino,0,7539381.story

 

 

I'm not convinced this is accurately being reported/communicated, or maybe there's ambiguity for a reason, but either way if there's even a chance this first Casino site will be closed down in the next few years we shouldn't allow this kind of construction/demolition to take place.

 

What is more likely is that the next phase is never built.  Higbees will always be a casino

 

you can start with Robert Kaiser [email protected] and Don Petit [email protected]

Bob Brown (planning director) is:    [email protected]

All I could get for Jennifer Coleman (chairperson) was:    [email protected]

Councilman Brancatelli:    [email protected]

Robert Keiser (secretary):    [email protected]

I love Cleveland, and have always supported and promoted it, but things like the demolition of the Columbia building for a parking garage really make me second guess myself. Why love a city that doesn't care about its past, and is willing to destroy historic buildings, and kill neighborhoods all in the name of parking. Where is this city heading. Its hard to say in the right direction when they do dumbass things like this. It almost makes me sick thinking that this could/will actually happen. It makes me believe that the next row a buildings, east of East 2nd, will be next in their path of destruction. When does it stop?!

A city is only as good as its citizens.  It's up to us to try and make the city be what we want it to be.

^Totally agree.  Send those emails and make those calls people...

I sent one to everyone on there. We all need to do this! Use your multiple emails if you have any!

I'm  @@ the city planning meeting now. I'll speak up.  len k said the project breathes connectivity to the l gateway. Any good wet to view uo on phone ?

I, too, sent one to every email posted here.  I added one to Councilman Cimperman as well.  Please everyone get involved, send emails, go to the meetings, whether you're in Cleveland or live vicariously through UO from out of state!

It could be worse..... they could be demolishing the Columbia for a surface lot.

 

Seeing the design in full, I am now officially in the camp of, if you have to take out a building, let it be the Stanley Block.  It loses all of its character being jammed between the garage and the welcome center anyways.

 

For those of you who are going to put up a fight, good luck to you.

Bumsquare...I have to agree with you...that was a very weak article....so unlike Litt when he dislikes something (which he clearly does here)....he is usually so over the top that you have to roll your eyes.  Could it be that editors at the PD are making him tone it down?

 

At least it was full of some useful information but very discouraging if what he states is true...looks as though he is resigned to the fact.  Not a lot of great leadership from city hall on this issue...see what happens when you are desperate for $$.