Is the "large retail or restaurant space at the corner of Prospect and Ontario" a sham as well?  All part of the 'fix' to 'ruin' our downtown core?

 

Call me a 'glass half full' kind of guy, but when I envision that intersection with Fat Fish Blue on the NE, this new "large retail or restaurant space" on the SE, the casino on the NW, and Landmark on the SW, I don't see a pedestrian deadzone.  Not at all.  I think I could come up with a better plan if not impeded by any of the complexities involved, but I find this far, far, far from worst case scenario.

 

I know how strongly people feel about this, so I am going to duck out of this conversation at this point.  Others might be fine with it, but I don't mean to insult (yet it seems that is exactly the way dissent is interpreted on this issue).  I think the passion is leading to a little bit of unreasonableness.  JMO.

I think my favorite part is the "Parking Supply", where they come to the conclusion that constructing more parking will reduce the need to construct additional parking.

^^I don't understand why anyone would be FOR this?  I can get not caring, but why be for knocking down buildings for parking?

 

 

I am sursprised Brown didn't include the world class signage that says "Casnio Parking" as another feather in his cap of logic

I thought the 60's were over. But we have recently just destroyed several historic buildings and more seem to be on the way.

Sorry, but this city is not inspiring me. It's been a long time that something development-wise has happened here to make me say "Wow." Instead, projects like this make me say "Huh?"

Sorry, but this city is not inspiring me. It's been a long time that something development-wise has happened here to make me say "Wow." Instead, projects like this make me say "Huh?"

 

I'm with you KJP. 

 

Our fabulous planning commission will look the other way and focus their efforts on harassing homeowners in "historic districts" about what kinds of windows and shutters they put on their houses (while the neighborhoods crumble around them).

 

The entire midwest needs to reinvent itself and clean out the old leadership who still think in 20th century terms. 

 

The irony of Dan Gilbert's hometown of Detroit is not lost on me.  I have been a vocal supporter of putting all of our politicians on a bus trip to Detroit for a night out to see exactly what casinos have done for that once-great city.  So far no takers.

 

 

So can I get some thoughts from people on what kind of "retail" would be going in here?  It's 4700 GSF, which is a decent size, but not huge.  I looked up that the typical Gap/Banana republic is between 6,000 - 8,000 SF.  I also found that the average small restaurant is around 4,000. 

 

Between the Horseshoe banners hanging outside, and the single door proposed, I'm pretty convinced the "retail" will be Casino Card Sales, maybe a tiny Coffee Kiosk, and nothing "3rd Party".

 

As they wrote: "The proposed “welcome center” project proposes a large retail or restaurant space at the corner of Prospect and Ontario".  I'm just not convinced there is either enough space for anything, nor would they want something distinct there.  Could you imagine a Sports Bar there?  Or a Retail outlet, like a Tiffany's?

 

I really can't, and don't expect it to be anything that would encourage street-life.  But I'm open to all of your thoughts...

 

 

A troll themed bar, since it is under the bridge, or a starbucks

Here's an alternative (reality?!) version, that would at least indicate an intention to make the parking garage/welcome center truly an organic PART of the city. 

 

I added a random store, a Cleveland Cupcake Store (finally!) and a Great Lakes Brewery Pub.

I'm actually embarrassed that we are getting a casino in our downtown. We now get to join the ranks of Detroit, East St.Louis, Joliett, Gary and other perceived "undesirable " urban cores. Non tourist destinations that have casinos just announce to the world that their location is "crap" and has nothing left to try but a casino. I'm even more embarrassed that we are tearing down viable historic structures to accommodate this casino.

 

Sorry, but this city is not inspiring me. It's been a long time that something development-wise has happened here to make me say "Wow." Instead, projects like this make me say "Huh?"

 

I'm with you KJP. 

 

Our fabulous planning commission will look the other way and focus their efforts on harassing homeowners in "historic districts" about what kinds of windows and shutters they put on their houses (while the neighborhoods crumble around them).

 

The entire midwest needs to reinvent itself and clean out the old leadership who still think in 20th century terms. 

 

The irony of Dan Gilbert's hometown of Detroit is not lost on me.  I have been a vocal supporter of putting all of our politicians on a bus trip to Detroit for a night out to see exactly what casinos have done for that once-great city.  So far no takers.

 

 

^I pretty much agree, but that ship sailed at the election, so all we can do is make the best of it now I guess.  But if I were an Ohio voter, I would have voted against the darn thing from the get go.

 

^^We have a cupcake store already, in Tremont.

 

Forgive me for not remembering this off hand, but will there be restaurants inside the Higbees building?  If not, the one legitimate, significant pedestrian spill-over I can imagine is food-related.  So maybe a PF Changs in that garage retail space.

 

Sorry, but this city is not inspiring me. It's been a long time that something development-wise has happened here to make me say "Wow." Instead, projects like this make me say "Huh?"

 

Yeesh, that's a little harsh- just keep a picture of Uptown in your head :)

^Chicago will get one with Mayor Rahm.  I just had hoped when Gilbert said he didn't want a traditional casino that keeps people locked in, he wanted one that benefited downtown, he wasn't blowing smoke.

While I'm upset at the prospect of losing the Columbia building, I'm more bothered that they're repurposing the Higbee's space.  We didn't vote on that.  We voted for a new structure on the river.  I had hoped additional traffic in the TC complex would help get a department store back into Higbee's.  By taking over that building, the casino curtailed a lot of possible spin-off development.  Now it'll be casino and more casino, with an incomplete shopping mall in the middle. 

My biggest issue here is that they claim to have evaluated all other options... where are those studies?  Show me the studies that indicate that there is no getting around tearing the Columbia Building down. 

My biggest issue here is that they claim to have evaluated all other options... where are those studies?  Show me the studies that indicate that there is no getting around tearing the Columbia Building down. 

 

I'm with you on this. If you can show me that you evaluated other options, and that they truly aren't viable, well I still won't be happy, but at least I'll concede that it's the best available option.

 

If this is a done deal, at least they're sending Rock back to the drawing board on the walkway. My only other request would be to see if they could re-engineer the exit back onto Ontario so that it doesn't turn Prospect into an expressway.

While I'm upset at the prospect of losing the Columbia building, I'm more bothered that they're repurposing the Higbee's space.  We didn't vote on that.  We voted for a new structure on the river.  I had hoped additional traffic in the TC complex would help get a department store back into Higbee's.  By taking over that building, the casino curtailed a lot of possible spin-off development.  Now it'll be casino and more casino, with an incomplete shopping mall in the middle. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the shopping mall just becomes a part of the casino, with the riverfront development significantly downsized.  In this town you have to allow for plenty of surface parking (even upscale surface parking under the former Tower City Amphitheatre tent!)

 

 

While I'm upset at the prospect of losing the Columbia building, I'm more bothered that they're repurposing the Higbee's space.  We didn't vote on that.  We voted for a new structure on the river.  I had hoped additional traffic in the TC complex would help get a department store back into Higbee's.  By taking over that building, the casino curtailed a lot of possible spin-off development.  Now it'll be casino and more casino, with an incomplete shopping mall in the middle. 

 

It was in the ballot language, option h

 

 

INlTIATlVE PETITION

 

Amendment to the Constitution

 

SUMMARY

 

The Amendment 10 be enacted by amending Article XV, Section 6 of the Ohio Constitution will: • Authorize a single casino at a predetermined location, as designated in the Amendment, in each of the cities of:

 

Cincinnati. The casino in Cincinnati, Ohio will be located on approximately 2004 acres of property located southeast cfReading Road. cast of Broadway, north of CoW1 Street, southwest and partially northeast of the 1-411 ramp and northwest of Gilben Avenue, including 405 Reading Road,415 Reading Road, 421 Reading Road, 521 Reading Road, 575 Reading Road, 1002 Broadway, 1006 Broadway, 1008 Broadway, 1020 Broadway, 1024 Broadway, 418 East Court Street, 430 East Court Street, 1009 Gilbert Avenue and 1031 Spring Street, Cincinnati, Ohio);

Cleveland (The casino in Cleveland, Ohio will be located on one or more of the following properties: (a) the property situated south of Public Square, east of Superior Avenue, west of Ontario Street and north of W. Prospect Avenue; (b) the property situated south of W. Prospect Avenue, east of West 6th Street, north of W. Huron Road and west of Ontario Str«1; (e) approximately 7.91 acres of property located south of W. Huron Road, west of Ontario Street, nonh of Canal Road and lying east of the prolongation of the centerline of the Bridge of West 6th Street; (d) approximately 11.22 acres of property and water lying east of the prolongation of the centerline of the Bridge of West 3rd Street, south of Canal Road, northwest of W. Eagle Road and bounded by, and including a portion of, the Cuyahoga River to the soulh and the southwest; (e) all air rights above the approximately 0.87 acre parcel of property situated along and south of Ontario Street in close prOXimity to the intersection of W. Huron Road and Ontario SlIeet; (0 approximately 1.83 acres of property located at the southeast comer of the intersection of W. 3rd Street and W. Eagle Avenue and the northeast comer of the intersection of W. 3rd Street and Carnegie Avenue and west of the former Baltimore and Ohio railroad right of way; Cg) approximately 1.55 acres of property located at the southeast corner of the intersection of W. 3rd Street and Camegie Avenue and west of the former Baltimore and Ohio railroad right of way; (h) floors one through four, mezzanine, basement and sub-basement of that certain property located at 2100 Public Square, Cleveland, Ohio, commonly known as the Higbee Building, which property is located to the south of Public Square, north of West Prospect Avenue and southwest of Ontario' Street; and (i) approximately 61 acres of properties, commonly known as the Scranton Peninsula, bounded by tbe Cuyahoga River to the north and the west and situated west of Scranlon Road and northwest and partially southeast of the overpass of the Lorain Carnegie Bridge);

 

 

from ballotpedia.org

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Text_of_Issue_3,_the_Ohio_Casino_Initiative

I'm shocked that anyone can be embarrassed by a casino in our downtown. I've been to every single city mentioned and this fits non of those scenarios. St. Louis has river boat casinos (granted they're permanently docked) but they are very low class and offer really nothing else. Besides greektown, Detroits "downtown" casinos are in the middle of nowhere, and the greektown area has been better off since it's arrival. Joliet is a tiny place outside of Chicago, not even comparable at all. We are lucky to have a project that is spurring future development of retail and hotels in an area that had nearly none for years. I think people are placing their personal "morals" against gambling into play when they say stuff like this and not thinking of the betterment of the city.

CITY PLANNING CONSIDERATIONS WITH REGARD TO PROPOSED

CASINO WELCOME CENTER AND GARAGE DEVELOPMENT

 

Robert Brown, The Director of The Cleveland City Planning Commission, was nice enough to respond to my email with regards to Welcome Center and Garage Development.    Hera are some excerpts he shared.

 

 

Street Life.  The proposed “welcome center” project proposes a large retail or restaurant space at the corner of Prospect and Ontario, replacing a long-vacant building that once housed a religious book store.  Immediately east of the new retail/ restaurant space on Prospect will be another pedestrian-oriented space, a “welcome center,” with information about the casino and some possible retail sales area.  Together, these two people-oriented, non-vehicular new spaces on Prospect Avenue will help connect pedestrian activity from the casino, along Prospect Avenue, to East 4th Street.  These new uses can also contribute to the renovation and re-use of the vacant and under-utilized historic buildings on Prospect between East 2nd and East 4th. 

 

In addition, the fact that the main street-level entrances to the casino will be directly on Prospect Avenue and on Public Square means that many if not most of the casino goers will enter the casino from the street, rather than on the pedestrian bridge, walking from local hotels and from the Convention Center, Medical Mart and other nearby venues.

 

Casino Phasing.  The casino developer has stated its intent to make the Higbee Building a permanent part of the larger casino complex, which is proposed to be built on the south side of Huron Road, connected to the Tower City complex.  Construction of the second phase casino is anticipated for 2015.

 

Competitiveness.  It is important to the Cleveland community that the casino succeeds and draws millions of visitors to the city, along with the thousands of jobs associated with the casino.  Other successful, first-class casinos offer their patrons convenient parking and valet parking drop-off and pick-up, along with safe, climate-controlled connections to the casino.  For the Higbee Building casino, the only location available for this service, including the extensive valet area required for such service, is at the southeast corner of Ontario and Prospect, where the Columbia Building is located.  All options have been examined carefully and none of them are workable.

 

 

 

I stand corrected.  We did indeed vote on that.  Kind of.  The operative sentence seems to specify that the location from that list would be "predetermined," and all signs pointed to the riverfront site until well after the election, as I recall.  I guess the wording leaves open the possibility that they could change their minds about which site(s) they'd predetermined, since there was no requirement to disclose their determination pre-election.

While I'm upset at the prospect of losing the Columbia building, I'm more bothered that they're repurposing the Higbee's space.  We didn't vote on that.  We voted for a new structure on the river.  I had hoped additional traffic in the TC complex would help get a department store back into Higbee's.  By taking over that building, the casino curtailed a lot of possible spin-off development.  Now it'll be casino and more casino, with an incomplete shopping mall in the middle. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the shopping mall just becomes a part of the casino, with the riverfront development significantly downsized.  In this town you have to allow for plenty of surface parking (even upscale surface parking under the former Tower City Amphitheatre tent!)

 

 

Didn't this happen in Detroit? I think the Greektown casino went into Trappers Alley which was a shopping mall. Instead of promoting spillover business they just took over the entire space. I havent been in a while, but there wasn't much in the way of neighboring spillover development.

My biggest issue here is that they claim to have evaluated all other options... where are those studies?  Show me the studies that indicate that there is no getting around tearing the Columbia Building down. 

 

+1

 

I want to see an exhaustive look at the entire approved casino area, with walking radii, existing parking, new parking, etc.  If this is the only option, then, reluctantly, I'd be OK.  However, it doesn't seem that any of that information has been shared with the public.

 

I think the city dropped the ball by enthusiastically embracing the higbee building for a renovation (even though it was starting to fill up with other uses already), without fully researching and understanding (or ideally demanding) other proposed elements including parking, covered walkways and demolitions.  Now that construction has started, the City doesn't seem willing to challenge the developer for a better deal.

 

The city has a lot of power here as the ballot issue restricts the casino location.  If rock wants to change that, they'd have to go back to the voters.  Instead, the city appears to have rolled over.

I dont mind the Casino going in the Higbee building. The building is extremely large, and hard to fill. And at least the Casino opens up the building to the public unlike more offices. Im just disappointed with this whole parking garage/columbia building demolition bullshit.

^^Agree 1000%.  I would be less incensed if I knew this was done (objectively) and the information was shared.  They don't even hint at this being the case which leads me to believe they just took the easy out.

 

By the way, want to sell me on this (including the demolition of Columbine)...put a fabulous mixed use facility on top of your parking garage (vertical retail, boutique hotel, apartments).  Is that so outside the box?

No, just outside the budget.

I put in a call to Jennifer Coleman, Chair of the landmarks commission.  She asked me to e-mail her my opposition to the project, and that way she can demonstate the amount of opposition to knocking down the Columbia.

 

If you would like to do so also, her e-mail is Jennifer Coleman:  [email protected]

 

Nice work punchin' Pat! 

 

Everybody who has an argument please email Jennifer or put in a call if you feel strongly enough...  They have the power to oppose this demolition, and make them go back to the drawing board to look at other options..  (or at least with the conditions that other options wouldnt be feasable).   

^^Clearly...but don't try to sell me a parking garage and gerbil tube by saying you are doing great things for the city.

Burnham, are you able to do a mock up of the basic concept with possibly the same entrance, but with the ramp looping around so that they would also exit on the back side of this block, utilizing an expanded Gateway north garage and having traffic exit back out to Huron or E4th or something.  Valet requires dropping off your car.  It shouldnt matter how the complex is arranged. 

I am trying to think of a several hundred million dollar project in which we did NOT lose something AT LEAST as significant as the Columbia building.

 

Convention Center/Medical Mart

Breaking my self-imposed ban just to suggest what I have to others through PM.  Submit a public records request to the City.  Something like.....

 

Please accept this letter as a properly submitted request, pursuant to the Ohio Public Records Act (R.C. 149.43) for the City of Cleveland to make available within a reasonable period of time, for copying and inspection, all of the following:

 

1. Any and all studies, evaluations, submittals, proposals, or other similar records concerning any and all options for parking dedicated for use by the Horseshoe Casino at 2100 Public Square (the Higbee’s Building).

 

2. Any and all correspondence between Rock Gaming (or any casino developer or affiliate or representative thereof) and the City of Cleveland, its commissions (including but not limited to the Planning Commission), boards, departments, elected and appointed officials, employees, and/or other representatives concerning available parking options dedicated for use by the Horeshoe Casino at 2100 Public Square (the Higbee’s Building).  Such correspondence would include letters, facsimile, electronic mail, or any other written transmittal regardless of means of transmission.

 

3.   Any and all public records concerning, discussing, endorsing, or dismissing alternatives to parking options dedicated for use by the Horeshoe Casino at 2100 Public Square (the Higbee’s Building) which do not involve the demolition of the Columbia Building on Prospect Avenue.

 

Please process this request according to law and please be advised that time is of the essence.  Thank you for your prompt attention to and anticipated cooperation with this public records request.  When the requested records are available for copying and/or inspection, you can contact me at XXX-XXX-XXXX

I am trying to think of a several hundred million dollar project in which we did NOT lose something AT LEAST as significant as the Columbia building.

 

Convention Center/Medical Mart

 

Stoke's Federal Court House?

I am trying to think of a several hundred million dollar project in which we did NOT lose something AT LEAST as significant as the Columbia building.

 

Convention Center/Medical Mart

 

Stoke's Federal Court House?

 

Innerbelt Bridge :P

Society Center, The Justic Center, BP Building, Terminal Tower, CSU, Jacobs Field, Gund Arena..... :P

So, I just got a phone call from Ken Silliman, Mayor Jackson's chief of staff.  I guess he was one of the dozens of people I called.  I know the man is very busy, so I probably should have been nicer.

He basically said how awesome Cleveland is at historic preservation (WTF!?!), and that this is the best deal the city could get from the casino.

 

When I mentioned that I was a bit skeptical that they would walk away from the project if they didn't get thier garage, and that the city was just selling out for the money for the Gateway garage, he said if they don't get their way, Phase I could be in jeapordy.

 

How much money did they sink into buying the Tower City property, $85MM?  If they lose a few hundred parking spots, they are going to forgo the millions they would make at even the phase I casino?? 

 

If city hall can't stand up to bullying form the casino now, then we are screwed.

What is the next compromise they will ask for, and who will say no?

Bring the Stanley and Columbia Building down. I hate to see it happen, however it's needed for the greater good.

 

Be overjoyed that Gilbert chose to renovate the Higbee Building rather than building somewhere else. He's doing his part to increase the activity downtown, it's within his right to be able to knock down a building or two.

 

Sorry guys, but you can't have it both ways (unless you have the $$$).

How much money did they sink into buying the Tower City property, $85MM?  If they lose a few hundred parking spots, they are going to forgo the millions they would make at even the phase I casino?? 

 

If city hall can't stand up to bullying form the casino now, then we are screwed.

What is the next compromise they will ask for, and who will say no?

 

The City of Cleveland needs the casino more than the casino needs The City of Cleveland.

^^^Cleveland needs to get some balls in this regard like Columbus (of course Columbus did not want the casino in the first place so they have no problem battling the owners).

@I Went West

 

The Casino isn't some charity for the city provided by Dan Gilbert cause he wanted to be nice. He will be making millions of dollars off of this Casino. And I have no problem with that, good for him! I just wished that the Columbia Building didn't have to be demolished in the process.

^^Anywho

 

 

I was looking for a phone number for Rock Gaming and saw this rendering.  Shame now this view will not exist anymore, when looking from here you will see the bottom of the Skywalk

I just wished that the Columbia Building didn't have to be demolished in the process.

 

Amen brother. Stanley isn't worth saving, but the Columbia is a nice building.

 

If someone with enough cash can save it, great! If not, that's a bummer.

Zoning laws

Historic Preservation

City pride

 

Do they have these out west?

Zoning laws

Historic Preservation

City pride

 

Do they have these out west?

 

City pride - it's different, so many people (at least in Seattle) don't have an emotional attachment to the city like Clevelanders do. Many people here weren't born here so they see things from both sides of the fence.

 

As far as historic preservation, there's not nearly the amount of older buildings out west as in a city like Cleveland. If there was a threat for a developer to tear one down, another developer would come forward with the cash to redevelop it. Problem is in Cleveland is that there are thousands of buildings to renovate yet no one really interested (and has the $$$) in redeveloping them. The opposite is true out west.

 

 

I don't know, Punchin Pat, I think this is a nice view to see from ground level.  :P

 

 

[Edit: Note sure the Glass Tube is much better  :-P (just trying to make light of a less-than-wonderful situation)]

 

 

 

Zoning laws

Historic Preservation

City pride

 

Do they have these out west?

 

Apparently not. And now im starting to wonder if we have them here. And it is funny how they originally released the rendering you posted to get people excited and gain their trust, and then they submit the one with skywalk to the commission.

Just remembered this

I know accidents happen everywhere, but having a vigorous traffic study is probably needed

 

 

Woman killed in accident in Harrah's parking area

Published: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 3:35 PM    Updated: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 4:02 PM

 

 

The incident happened at around 12:15 a.m. in the Harrah's valet parking area at 8 Canal Street. According to investigators, a valet, 22, was backing up a Lincoln Navigator when he lost control of the vehicle and struck another vehicle, Jones and the two men.

The Navigator struck two taxi cabs and two other vehicles before coming to a stop.

The three injured were taken to a hospital, where Jones was pronounced dead. The two men were stable condition with face, leg and arm injuries.

 

 

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2010/03/woman_killed_in_valet-parking.html

I don't know, Punchin Pat, I think this is a nice view to see from ground level.  :P

 

 

 

 

Lmao. If we are stuck with the skywalk we should atleast make it completely glass(which includes the floor). That way the view will be less obstructed and it would be funny to watch people be afraid to walk on it. And maybe it would force some of them to walk outside instead! lol

make it completely glass(which includes the floor)

 

I can't imagine women wearing skirts would appreciate that idea.

make it completely glass(which includes the floor)

 

I can't imagine women wearing skirts would appreciate that idea.

 

Hahahaa then they can walk outside!

make it completely glass(which includes the floor)

 

I can't imagine women wearing skirts would appreciate that idea.

 

You would certainly increase street traffic directly underneath, though.

make it completely glass(which includes the floor)

 

I can't imagine women wearing skirts would appreciate that idea.

 

You would certainly increase street traffic directly underneath, though.

 

And it would be an added incentive for there to be a restaraunt with a large outdoor patio on the SE corner.  It would maybe make one of Forbes' lists for best places for 'people watching'