It says the basement "will feature a kitchen and a 400-seat buffet restaurant with an entrance to the Tower City food court".  I think that will be a good connection to Tower City and that a buffet restaurant will be a good addition to the food court.  I wonder where that connection will come through?

 

But that cant be right.  If you look at the accompaning map in the article of where the restaurant would be, theres no way it could connect at the food court in Tower City.   

Looking at the story ti jsut says the Buffet will be connected to Tower City, not necessarily the Food Court. Looks like it will connect under where the Brooks Brothers store is.

 

One question I have is if the Buffet will be open 24-Hours?

Looking at the story ti jsut says the Buffet will be connected to Tower City, not necessarily the Food Court. Looks like it will connect under where the Brooks Brothers store is.

 

One question I have is if the Buffet will be open 24-Hours?

 

No it says the food court.

Horseshoe Casino Cleveland aims to draw new crowd to downtown attractions

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania -- As night deepened on a summer Friday, electronic dance music pounded inside Drum Bar, a cylinder-shaped nightclub with big-window views of the Ohio River and the Pittsburgh skyline. Ayisha Morgan-Lee and Marguarite Matthews, both 28, sipped cocktails and flashed bright smiles as they laughed and shouted with friends.

 

A dozen yards away, on the main floor of Rivers Casino, slot machines whirred and blackjack dealers called for bets. Outside, in an amphitheater that cascades to the water's edge, a local rock band sang to gamblers and boaters alike.

 

Neither scene lured the young women, who were enjoying a girls' night out in their new favorite hang-out. In addition to providing gambling games, the Steel City's first and only casino offers a club scene, live bands and city views.

 

"Sometimes I'll play some slots, sometimes not," said Matthews, a doctoral student at the University of Pittsburgh. "If you're not really a gambler, you can still come here and have a good time. I think it gave people another alternative, and in a part of town we didn't used to come to."

 

The Rivers, a new kind of casino, attracts a new kind of customer. Young professionals and bridal parties descend on a complex built on a former steel mill just across the river from downtown, in an urban setting that defies casino-industry tradition.

 

Developers in Cleveland are about to take that concept a giant step further. Horseshoe Casino Cleveland, when it opens next year, will be the only casino standing on the public square of a major American city.

 

To read on: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/07/horseshoe_casino_cleveland_des.html

Columbia Demolition begins. http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/demolition-begins-on-columbia-building-for-new-casino-garage-welcome-center

Disgusting...We can rename that stretch Parking Garage Way...thankfully, tho, there are plenty of buildings to rehab on Prospect.

Disgusting...We can rename that stretch Parking Garage Way...thankfully, tho, there are plenty of buildings to rehab on Prospect.

 

Or demolish.....

"Glover envisions a fleet of casino buses shuttling visitors to and from downtown attractions, PlayhouseSquare and maybe Tremont."

 

Yes, please.

"Glover envisions a fleet of casino buses shuttling visitors to and from downtown attractions, PlayhouseSquare and maybe Tremont."

 

Yes, please.

 

First the parking garage BS, now this!  Make these people walk. Their lazy fat asses most likely need the exercise.

 

The idea was to make the casino a part of the urban fabric, having buses take people from point A to point be means they will not walk, see, shop at destinations in-between.  I can see a loop to Tremont/Ohio City, but we have city buses.

 

I'm am not in favor of this or anything like it.

^ To playhouse square, yes...walk.  To Tremont, no thanks...ill be tired by the time i get there.

There already is free bus service between public square and playhouse square.  Most people consider that a good thing.  I usually walk it, but when the temperature is 10 or 100 those buses are a godsend.  And it's not the buses that prevent me from stopping to buy things along Euclid, it's the lack of retail.  I don't believe we'll make things any better by denying access or services to force people into certain behavior patterns.  More carrot, less stick.     

Getting back on topic - cross posted with the Cleveland Demolition thread; my apologies, it's a cellphone pic taken at 25ish MPH:

 

"Welcome to Our Jobs Creation Plan"

 

(crash, smash)

I don't wanna look at it :(

"Glover envisions a fleet of casino buses shuttling visitors to and from downtown attractions, PlayhouseSquare and maybe Tremont."

 

Yes, please.

 

First the parking garage BS, now this!  Make these people walk. Their lazy fat asses most likely need the exercise.

 

The idea was to make the casino a part of the urban fabric, having buses take people from point A to point be means they will not walk, see, shop at destinations in-between.  I can see a loop to Tremont/Ohio City, but we have city buses.

 

I'm am not in favor of this or anything like it.

 

City buses that take a very convoluted route to OC/Tremont from PS.  This is mostly due to RTA wanting to get to the most people with one bus, but the Casino developers wont care about picking up people along the way.  They will care about their restaurant partners and getting their patrons to and from their establishments quickly. 

 

I have always felt that a OC/Tremont loop was sorely needed to better connect that region with the core of the city.

 

Regarding the Columbia building, at least they are making quick work of it and it isn't just sitting there rotting away.

 

RTA was considering a service like this by expanding its downtown trolleys until ODOT funding for transit was taken away for more road projects.

If the casino wants to provide shuttles that will encourage people to go to places outside the casino, what do I care how they get there. God speed. Shuttle their fat @sses wherever they want to go.

If the casino wants to provide shuttles that will encourage people to go to places outside the casino, what do I care how they get there. God speed. Shuttle their fat @sses wherever they want to go.

I highly doubt that will be the case.  I sense any casino provide shuttle/vehicle will take people from Point A in the city directly to the inside of the Casino (I would assume the welcome center), after they have spent time in the casino, the Shuttle/Vehicle will then return people to Point A.

 

If what I described above is the case, how is that being apart of the urban fabric of the core of our city?

 

I want the casino to be apart of the urban fabric, not something that sucks life off of the streets as Tower City did with retail.

Given the alternative is that people go right to the welcome center and never leave the casino except to go back to the garage and drive home, I'll take this option. You can't force people to leave the casino and walk around. At least this service has the potential to encourage visiting other parts of the city.

+1

 

Not everyone will use the shuttle, just like not everyone will valet their car.

 

Just like our collective argument for the 3C, 'options' are always best.  But keep in mind that is all they are.... 'options'.  Nobody will force you on that shuttle to PHS or Tremont.  You are free to walk/bike/take public transportation. 

 

In the end, it will be a benefit to the businesses/neighborhoods to which the shuttle takes people.  Christie's does not operate a shuttle to be 'nice'.... they do it because it generates business.

Given the alternative is that people go right to the welcome center and never leave the casino except to go back to the garage and drive home, I'll take this option. You can't force people to leave the casino and walk around. At least this service has the potential to encourage visiting other parts of the city.

 

I completely disagree.  Its the principle.  Why are the shuttles needed?  Lets not be gullable and think the shuttle are going to promote businesses in other portions of the city..  Thare are going to be used to help people get from other parts of the city directly into the Casino.  Therefore reducing the number of people patronize businesses in/near the outbound terminal location.

 

Here is an example. Say a shuttle leaves Ohio City and goes to the Casino every ½ hour.  Why not walk/drive your car to Ohio City, jump on the Shuttle and hit the Casino.  After you/your group is done partying at the Casino, you head back to OC to walk/get in your car and drive where ever.  Its late then and most OC business are closed.  How is that helping OC businesses and establishments?

 

If a person/group drives they have more leisure and are flexible to explore the surrounding area.  Granted Id rather see RTA partner with the Casino/Tower City to improve it's service as it's a part of the development.

Lets not be gullable and think the shuttle are going to promote businesses in other portions of the city..  Thare are going to be used to help people get from other parts of the city directly into the Casino. 

 

What makes you think that they will not be used to shuttle casino patron from the casino to other attractions?

Given the alternative is that people go right to the welcome center and never leave the casino except to go back to the garage and drive home, I'll take this option. You can't force people to leave the casino and walk around. At least this service has the potential to encourage visiting other parts of the city.

 

I completely disagree.  Its the principle.  Why are the shuttles needed?  Lets not be gullable and think the shuttle are going to promote businesses in other portions of the city..  Thare are going to be used to help people get from other parts of the city directly into the Casino.  Therefore reducing the number of people patronize businesses in/near the outbound terminal location.

 

They do work in reverse too.  Taking people from the casino to other parts of the city.  Remember this "Phase 1" casino is going to have very limited food options.  I would be surprised if they were not partnering with bar/restaurants in E 4th (walkable) Tremont (Not Walkable / hardly accessible through RTA either) and Ohio City (not Walkable/ RTA accessible). 

Given the alternative is that people go right to the welcome center and never leave the casino except to go back to the garage and drive home, I'll take this option. You can't force people to leave the casino and walk around. At least this service has the potential to encourage visiting other parts of the city.

 

I completely disagree.  Its the principle.  Why are the shuttles needed?  Lets not be gullable and think the shuttle are going to promote businesses in other portions of the city..  Thare are going to be used to help people get from other parts of the city directly into the Casino.  Therefore reducing the number of people patronize businesses in/near the outbound terminal location.

 

Here is an example. Say a shuttle leaves Ohio City and goes to the Casino every ½ hour.  Why not walk/drive your car to Ohio City, jump on the Shuttle and hit the Casino.  After you/your group is done partying at the Casino, you head back to OC to walk/get in your car and drive where ever.  Its late then and most OC business are closed.  How is that helping OC businesses and establishments?

 

If a person/group drives they have more leisure and are flexible to explore the surrounding area.  Granted Id rather see RTA partner with the Casino/Tower City to improve it's service as it's a part of the development.

 

If that's the worst case scenario, then they've just reduced the amount of car traffic immediately surrounding the casino, and the new Prospect Expressway. I like that.

 

I'll re-state my argument from a few months ago. The vast majority of the people going to the casino, will never set foot outside of that casino. Fine. Spend your money and go home. This shuttle won't effect them one way or the other. It's the remainder that I'm interested in, the ones that WILL explore the city. This shuttle will give them an easier option to get to that other place they want to explore. And it's a painless solution. We're not paying for it, the casino is.

 

And that's all I got to say about that!

Given the alternative is that people go right to the welcome center and never leave the casino except to go back to the garage and drive home, I'll take this option. You can't force people to leave the casino and walk around. At least this service has the potential to encourage visiting other parts of the city.

 

I completely disagree.  Its the principle.  Why are the shuttles needed?  Lets not be gullable and think the shuttle are going to promote businesses in other portions of the city..  Thare are going to be used to help people get from other parts of the city directly into the Casino.  Therefore reducing the number of people patronize businesses in/near the outbound terminal location.

 

Here is an example. Say a shuttle leaves Ohio City and goes to the Casino every ½ hour.  Why not walk/drive your car to Ohio City, jump on the Shuttle and hit the Casino.  After you/your group is done partying at the Casino, you head back to OC to walk/get in your car and drive where ever.  Its late then and most OC business are closed.  How is that helping OC businesses and establishments?

 

If a person/group drives they have more leisure and are flexible to explore the surrounding area.  Granted Id rather see RTA partner with the Casino/Tower City to improve it's service as it's a part of the development.

 

If that's the worst case scenario, then they've just reduced the amount of car traffic immediately surrounding the casino, and the new Prospect Expressway. I like that.

 

I'll re-state my argument from a few months ago. The vast majority of the people going to the casino, will never set foot outside of that casino. Fine. Spend your money and go home. This shuttle won't effect them one way or the other. It's the remainder that I'm interested in, the ones that WILL explore the city. This shuttle will give them an easier option to get to that other place they want to explore. And it's a painless solution. We're not paying for it, the casino is.

 

And that's all I got to say about that!

 

Yes that is my worst case scenario and that is why I've written my responses as such.

 

Given the alternative is that people go right to the welcome center and never leave the casino except to go back to the garage and drive home, I'll take this option. You can't force people to leave the casino and walk around. At least this service has the potential to encourage visiting other parts of the city.

 

I completely disagree.  Its the principle.  Why are the shuttles needed?  Lets not be gullable and think the shuttle are going to promote businesses in other portions of the city..  Thare are going to be used to help people get from other parts of the city directly into the Casino.  Therefore reducing the number of people patronize businesses in/near the outbound terminal location.

 

They do work in reverse too.  Taking people from the casino to other parts of the city.  Remember this "Phase 1" casino is going to have very limited food options.  I would be surprised if they were not partnering with bar/restaurants in E 4th (walkable) Tremont (Not Walkable / hardly accessible through RTA either) and Ohio City (not Walkable/ RTA accessible). 

True, but name a Casino that isn't interested in keeping partrons solely on their property.

 

I really is about making the casino a part of the fabric of the city, then I hope he does partner with the business currently located in downtown. 

With regards to the shuttles, how is another transportation option a bad thing?  That's like saying bringing CVSR into Tower City would be a bad thing because then people could park their car in Independence and ride the train right into the casino.  So what?  Those are the type of people that would drive their car directly there and leave right afterwards anyway.  And the shuttle is more likely to encourage them to explore other parts of the city than going straight to the parking garage and leaving downtown.  And it also may encourage people to eat somewhere like Ohio City or Tremont before heading to the casino instead of Crocker Park or Legacy Village.

^ Yes.  And I thought that point would have been fairly obvious too.  A bit surprised the topic was discussed for a whole page.

The ideal situation would be a bus/trolley similar to the green trolleys that run along Superior and Euclid downtown.  But this trolley would go beyond just downtown:

 

- Public Square (casino)

- Playhouse Square

- Tremont (maybe corner of Professor and College?)

- Ohio City (Lorain and West 25th)

- Warehouse District?

- Detroit Shoreway?

 

I say it's in the casino's best interest to run this trolley completely free of charge - even if you want to jump on at Ohio City and take it to Tremont without getting off at the casino.  Otherwise, you either have to charge or you have to figure out some way to force people to get off at the casino stop.  It would just get messy.

 

"But Jeremy, why would the casino pay for a trolley that might just be taking people from Ohio City to Tremont?"  Because it's a giant advertisement on wheels for them.  The casino would obviously be plastered with their marketing info, inside and out.  Plus, there's always the chance of capturing people that may not have even intended to stop at the casino.  I think a random group of people leaving Bier Markt, seeing the free trolley and saying, "Hey, let's jump on and check out the casino real quick," is a very real scenario.

 

Dollar Bank subsidizes the green trolleys downtown and they have far less to gain than the casino would by running free trolleys that advertise their business and bring potential customers right to their front door.  Financially, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of millions they're spending.  And this would have the potential to drive revenue for them.

The ideal situation would be a bus/trolley similar to the green trolleys that run along Superior and Euclid downtown.  But this trolley would go beyond just downtown:

 

- Public Square (casino)

- Playhouse Square

- Tremont (maybe corner of Professor and College?)

- Ohio City (Lorain and West 25th)

- Warehouse District?

- Detroit Shoreway?

 

I say it's in the casino's best interest to run this trolley completely free of charge - even if you want to jump on at Ohio City and take it to Tremont without getting off at the casino.  Otherwise, you either have to charge or you have to figure out some way to force people to get off at the casino stop.  It would just get messy.

 

"But Jeremy, why would the casino pay for a trolley that might just be taking people from Ohio City to Tremont?"  Because it's a giant advertisement on wheels for them.  The casino would obviously be plastered with their marketing info, inside and out.  Plus, there's always the chance of capturing people that may not have even intended to stop at the casino.  I think a random group of people leaving Bier Markt, seeing the free trolley and saying, "Hey, let's jump on and check out the casino real quick," is a very real scenario.

 

Dollar Bank subsidizes the green trolleys downtown and they have far less to gain than the casino would by running free trolleys that advertise their business and bring potential customers right to their front door.  Financially, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of millions they're spending.  And this would have the potential to drive revenue for them.

dollar bank to the Casino is comparing apples to oranges.

 

The ideal situation is to partner with the RTA.  They should have dedicated trains and buses wrapped inside and outside by the Casino. They could turn the turnstyles at Tower City into Slot Machines.  There is so much they could do to hype the casino and weave it into the fabric of our city.

 

If RTA had buses/shuttle/circulars that went from point A-downtown-point C I would embrace this.  But a casino running a shuttle to and from it's doors is BS.

dollar bank to the Casino is comparing apples to oranges.

 

The ideal situation is to partner with the RTA.  They should have dedicated trains and buses wrapped inside and outside by the Casino. They could turn the turnstyles at Tower City into Slot Machines.  There is so much they could do to hype the casino and weave it into the fabric of our city.

 

With the Dollar Bank comparison, my point was to answer people who would question why the casino would pay for a free bus/trolley that would link downtown and its neighborhoods.  Dollar Bank pays for it for downtown.  The casino has more to gain and could therefore pay for a larger operation.

 

And I wouldn't want to see the casino partner with RTA too much.  I think Dan Gilbert is much more forward thinking than Joe Calabrese.

jborger makes a great point, these buses are casino ads on wheels, so it behooves them to take people all around the city.  That's a good thing for people and for the city. 

 

I just can't fathom being against transportation options, whatever their source.  And the best way to get people walking around downtown is to attract the sort of places they might like to visit.  Give them more reasons to check out Euclid Avenue and they will.

And I wouldn't want to see the casino partner with RTA too much.  I think Dan Gilbert is much more forward thinking than Joe Calabrese.

 

Not so far....

And I wouldn't want to see the casino partner with RTA too much.  I think Dan Gilbert is much more forward thinking than Joe Calabrese.

 

Not so far....

 

my understanding is that there has been very little traction in getting the casino to partner/sponsor expanded RTA service, such as a new or expanded trolley route. 

 

casino workers will rely heavily on rta services, but I don't think the operators view RTA service (whatever it might be) as a big option for customers.  it is also probably a control issue as well.

The casino in Pittsburgh also operates a shuttle to/from downtown hotels. But downtown Pittsburgh is separated from the casino by Heinz Field and the Allegheny River. Our casino couldn't be anymore downtown. It will be interesting to see if the Pittsburgh casino buses continue to operate after the new light-rail line under the Allegheny opens in March. The rail line dead-ends at the casino.

Didnt think Id ever say this but I cant wait for this dumbass garage to get built. That corner looks like an ugly mess right now. Even the ugly garage will make the corner look better then current state. Atleast they didnt want just a lot...

The Cleveland Planning Commission agenda for August 19th has the final design for the Casino and Welcome Center.  I still find the bridge design to be unacceptable. If this is to be pushed through, the historical tax credit should be revoked. As seen in photo 16, it completely destroys the aesthetics of The Higbee's facade. Photo titled Welcome Center 25 shows the construction prior to the bridge. The Design Review Committee needs to look at this and tell the developer to at least design this bridge in a manner that enhances the buildings.  Please, if we were to lose The Columbia Building at least hold the developers and architects to a higher standard .  How do others feel about the latest plans? I encourage all to let The Commission hear your opinions.

 

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2011/08192011/index.php

The bridge is just plain unattractive. If there has to be a bridge, it needs to compliment.

Yeah the bridge is awful. The overall design is pretty "meh"

 

However at least there's some retail and they're doing some nice things to the sidewalk.

I think there are better options to the bridge. What about a diagonal crosswalk that would be manually operated by a casino employee that would stop traffic in all directions to let pedestrians cross?

 

But most Clevelanders (and Americans) are car obsessed. If you give them a choice between a hamster tube and holding up traffic with a crosswalk, they'll pick the hamster tube.

 

If they do a bridge, at least make it open air. "But what about the harsh Cleveland winters?!" Blah, blah, blah.

 

I have no faith in the planning commission. I fear the tube will be built.

The Cleveland Planning Commission agenda for August 19th has the final design for the Casino and Welcome Center.  I still find the bridge design to be unacceptable. If this is to be pushed through, the historical tax credit should be revoked. As seen in photo 16, it completely destroys the aesthetics of The Higbee's facade. Photo titled Welcome Center 25 shows the construction prior to the bridge. The Design Review Committee needs to look at this and tell the developer to at least design this bridge in a manner that enhances the buildings.  Please, if we were to lose The Columbia Building at least hold the developers and architects to a higher standard .  How do others feel about the latest plans? I encourage all to let The Commission hear your opinions.

 

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2011/08192011/index.php

 

Good to see that that construction of the bridge/tube is delayed to another phase. More time to improve it or better yet, drop it altogether.

 

I am looking forward to Phase II. The plaza design they are depicting looks really sharp, and would be a tremendous improvement for the city.

 

I'm surprised to see the casino video screen going up on the parking garage (fig. 11, 12). I've always thought that Jacobs Field garage was terrible urban planning, and that it should be restructured to accommodate retail along the sidewalk. But what do I know...Gilbert knows best.

 

All in all, the hot wheels set looks better to me than the previous renderings. But make no mistake, this welcome center will essentially be an island in a sea of cars. The renderings only confirm this point.

 

 

^From what I can tell the gerbil tube is still part of the phase 1 plan.  It's in the final design they just submitted... no?

not wasting any time on the historic building demo there are they? and gerbil tubes are go?? grrr!

It won't surprise me if they approve the hamster tube is built.  The other thing I noticed was there is signage on the building noting 'restaurant'.  I don't like the idea of a restaurant in that location.  It will be too convenient for the patrons to go to that instead of venturing over to E4th.

^I think E4th would still get plenty of traffic.  There's no way we can keep restaurants from opening as close to the casino entrance as possible... there's just too much money to be made.  And if it keeps some people in downtown Cleveland to eat instead of going to Applebees in Medina then I'm cool with it.  Especially if a good local chef opens up in that space.

 

For someone who stated they want the Casino to be built into the urban fabric of the city, that damn bridge, grinds my gears!

 

 

 

^I think E4th would still get plenty of traffic.  There's no way we can keep restaurants from opening as close to the casino entrance as possible... there's just too much money to be made.  And if it keeps some people in downtown Cleveland to eat instead of going to Applebees in Medina then I'm cool with it.  Especially if a good local chef opens up in that space.

 

That is true...good point.

^From what I can tell the gerbil tube is still part of the phase 1 plan.  It's in the final design they just submitted... no?

 

The drawings 25, 26 depict an "interim phase prior to bridge."

 

I've no idea really, but to me that suggests that the hamster tube will be constructed last/later.

 

For someone who stated they want the Casino to be built into the urban fabric of the city, that damn bridge, grinds my gears!

 

 

I guess you could make the argument that the gerbil tube means that the parking garage will literally be built *into* the urban fabric. ;-)

look at drawing 32, it clearly lists a few "future development" parcels that could possibly interest me. and it seems their goal would be to keep the connection with the higbee building in tact.. which really sets the stage for the space to be taken over by prime retail once again.

 

but my goodness, the design of this welcome center is so vanilla, its scary.

^I think E4th would still get plenty of traffic.  There's no way we can keep restaurants from opening as close to the casino entrance as possible... there's just too much money to be made.  And if it keeps some people in downtown Cleveland to eat instead of going to Applebees in Medina then I'm cool with it.  Especially if a good local chef opens up in that space.

I totally agree. That's how I look at it, personally. I want Cleveland to be competitive, not only with cities like Chicago but also suburbs in our area. (I'd actually prefer if Northeast Ohio would all work together but if that's not going to happen, then the city needs to compete). Whatever it takes to get people working, living, eating, or enjoying entertainment options in the city, do it.

 

Plus, I think our market is big enough to sustain it. If I had to predict, what I think would happen is that as the Casino grows and attracts more outside visitors, the restaurants that prop up around it will most likely be too "touristy" for the locals, who will likely stick with East 4th Street. That tends to be the case in other cities that have a homegrown and tourist population.