It is a little vanilla however it's not like this is some iconic structure that warrants a Zaha Hadid, Morphosis or Libeskind type designs.  Horseshoe Phase II should definitely not be vanilla though.

It is a little vanilla however it's not like this is some iconic structure that warrants a Zaha Hadid, Morphosis or Libeskind type designs.  Horseshoe Phase II should definitely not be vanilla though.

 

valid and seconded! ;)

 

I really like to think of what this can do to freshen up tower cities offerings, and the possibility of retail in the downtown area. really that, to me, is the biggest pro out of this entire thing. though maybe the constant/late night activity base can vie for that, but I think mostly its the retail.

It is a little vanilla however it's not like this is some iconic structure that warrants a Zaha Hadid, Morphosis or Libeskind type designs.  Horseshoe Phase II should definitely not be vanilla though.

 

valid and seconded! ;)

 

I really like to think of what this can do to freshen up tower cities offerings, and the possibility of retail in the downtown area. really that, to me, is the biggest pro out of this entire thing. though maybe the constant/late night activity base can vie for that, but I think mostly its the retail.

I totally believe that putting the casino in the Higbee Building will revive Tower City, no question about it. It's the only casino on the public square of a major American city and the ony casino that I know of that is attached to a shopping mall. If their visitor projections are even half right, that'll bring in a steady stream of activity to that complex. Retailers love guaranteed traffic and, if the casino projections are accurate, that's definitely guaranteed traffic. I think that's probably the part of the story that most people don't mention. If the Higbee Casino works, then it will most certainly revive Tower City.

^You would think...but for a multiplicity of reasons I don't have a lot of faith in Forest City...I think they have reached a point of exhaustion where Tower City is concerned.

^You would think...but for a multiplicity of reasons I don't have a lot of faith in Forest City...I think they have reached a point of exhaustion where Tower City is concerned.

 

I agree, as stated in the retail thread, Tower City/Forest City needs a mall management company, like Simon or General Growth who can bring in a strong group of retailers.

^You would think...but for a multiplicity of reasons I don't have a lot of faith in Forest City...I think they have reached a point of exhaustion where Tower City is concerned.

 

I agree, as stated in the retail thread, Tower City/Forest City needs a mall management company, like Simon or General Growth who can bring in a strong group of retailers.

Bringing in Simon would be a great idea. I wonder why this hasn't been done. I mean, this way, Forest City can make money without having to do the work. lol. It's a no brainer, I would think.

It is a little vanilla however it's not like this is some iconic structure that warrants a Zaha Hadid, Morphosis or Libeskind type designs.  Horseshoe Phase II should definitely not be vanilla though.

 

valid and seconded! ;)

 

I really like to think of what this can do to freshen up tower cities offerings, and the possibility of retail in the downtown area. really that, to me, is the biggest pro out of this entire thing. though maybe the constant/late night activity base can vie for that, but I think mostly its the retail.

I totally believe that putting the casino in the Higbee Building will revive Tower City, no question about it. It's the only casino on the public square of a major American city and the ony casino that I know of that is attached to a shopping mall. If their visitor projections are even half right, that'll bring in a steady stream of activity to that complex. Retailers love guaranteed traffic and, if the casino projections are accurate, that's definitely guaranteed traffic. I think that's probably the part of the story that most people don't mention. If the Higbee Casino works, then it will most certainly revive Tower City.

 

You've never been to Vegas, have you?  :laugh:

It is a little vanilla however it's not like this is some iconic structure that warrants a Zaha Hadid, Morphosis or Libeskind type designs.  Horseshoe Phase II should definitely not be vanilla though.

 

valid and seconded! ;)

 

I really like to think of what this can do to freshen up tower cities offerings, and the possibility of retail in the downtown area. really that, to me, is the biggest pro out of this entire thing. though maybe the constant/late night activity base can vie for that, but I think mostly its the retail.

I totally believe that putting the casino in the Higbee Building will revive Tower City, no question about it. It's the only casino on the public square of a major American city and the ony casino that I know of that is attached to a shopping mall. If their visitor projections are even half right, that'll bring in a steady stream of activity to that complex. Retailers love guaranteed traffic and, if the casino projections are accurate, that's definitely guaranteed traffic. I think that's probably the part of the story that most people don't mention. If the Higbee Casino works, then it will most certainly revive Tower City.

 

You've never been to Vegas, have you?  :laugh:

Outside of Vegas of course, lol. And maybe Atlantic City, not sure about that one. (And yes, I've been to both. lol)

The outside might be a little "vanilla" but these renderings are a BIG improvement over the last. Anything is better than nothing and right now there is nothing on that corner.  Hopefully it will create  activity without solely being a sea of cars and I don't think one restaurant will effect E. 4th. We need more restaurants and retail THROUGHOUT downtown and not all on E. 4th!

As into gambling as I am, I'm more excited about how this will force the real estate company that owns the parking lot on Superior and W 6th to finally build on it. I'm sick of looking at that lot already.

The outside might be a little "vanilla" but these renderings are a BIG improvement over the last. Anything is better than nothing and right now there is nothing on that corner.  Hopefully it will create  activity without solely being a sea of cars and I don't think one restaurant will effect E. 4th. We need more restaurants and retail THROUGHOUT downtown and not all on E. 4th!

 

I disagree!  "Anything" is a cop-out BS mentality!

Let's keep this thread on the topic of the casino development (plans/designs/construction) and not on Tower City's health. There is a thread exclusively for Tower City elsewhere. Thanks!

As into gambling as I am, I'm more excited about how this will force the real estate company that owns the parking lot on Superior and W 6th to finally build on it. I'm sick of looking at that lot already.

 

Isn't this going to make them more likely to keep it as a parking lot?  If the Gateway garage is specifically for Valet parking (or even if it isn't only valet) it's going to be relatively expensive compared to other options including the parking lot you speak of.  Therefore I fear they will get more parking business because the of the casino and have even less incentive to build.  Hopefully I am wrong?

As into gambling as I am, I'm more excited about how this will force the real estate company that owns the parking lot on Superior and W 6th to finally build on it. I'm sick of looking at that lot already.

 

Isn't this going to make them more likely to keep it as a parking lot?  If the Gateway garage is specifically for Valet parking (or even if it isn't only valet) it's going to be relatively expensive compared to other options including the parking lot you speak of.  Therefore I fear they will get more parking business because the of the casino and have even less incentive to build.  Hopefully I am wrong?

It might encourage building a garage, which is far from ideal, but better than a surface lot.

As into gambling as I am, I'm more excited about how this will force the real estate company that owns the parking lot on Superior and W 6th to finally build on it. I'm sick of looking at that lot already.

 

Isn't this going to make them more likely to keep it as a parking lot?  If the Gateway garage is specifically for Valet parking (or even if it isn't only valet) it's going to be relatively expensive compared to other options including the parking lot you speak of.  Therefore I fear they will get more parking business because the of the casino and have even less incentive to build.  Hopefully I am wrong?

It might encourage building a garage, which is far from ideal, but better than a surface lot.

 

hey guys, the company that owns that lot wants to build a mixed-use development. They just can't do it because the financing isn't available.

 

NOW BACK ON TOPIC!

^Very well...

 

Semi-back-on-topic is the controversial skywalk between Higbee and the new parking deck.  After looking down Ontario from Lakeside today, I am officially in favor of it.  Number one, I think skywalks are neato and I always have.  But what really entices about this one is that it will create the illusion, looking south, that downtown is more than 4 blocks wide.  Right now you look down Ontario and you see Public Square, then Tower City, then a smokestack at the end of the world.  Creating some enclosure at awkward openings will help to foster a sense of place. 

 

By the same token, development at Superior and W6th will do this for inbound Euclid Avenue, where you see a monument at the end of the world.  While that's cool in itself, since the monument is a lady with a sword, the view up Euclid should convey that you're approaching the core of a major city.  That's impossible to do when the first buildings in your line of sight, on W6th, are practically beyond the horizon.  Hopefully the casino's primary spillover is all those empty parking lots.  If that happens, on any scale, I think it's at least as valuable as the Columbia Building.

^Very well...

 

Thanks for that punch in the gut

^Would that make this shot an upper-cut?

 

^below the belt

A lot of you are not going to be very happy  :|

 

"Cleveland officials OK casino parking center, skywalk to Higbee building

Published: Friday, August 19, 2011, 2:56 PM    Updated: Friday, August 19, 2011, 4:01 PM

  By Dave Davis, The Plain Dealer

 

An artist's rendering of the skywalk that will bring casino-goers from a valet parking center into the second floor of the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland in the Higbee Building.

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio--City officials Friday approved plans for a valet parking operation large enough to serve millions of visitors a year to a casino being built in the historic Higbee Building. But the fate of the most controversial part of the proposal, an 170-foot overhead skywalk that would connect the parking center to the historic former department store, now rests in the hands of state and federal officials."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/08/cleveland_officials_okay_casin.html

It's beeeeauteeful.

 

Well, he already beat me up and took my lunch. I guess it only follows that Gilbert would sleep with my wife too.

The only upside I see is it makes Downtown feel bigger than it is from that perspective....that's about it...

Just have to shake my head at some of the comments in the article.

The Higbee's building, a graceful old lady, is going to have a baseball bat sized phallic device shoved into her rear.

 

Can we start a petition to have this called the Robert Brown bridge?

"Rock Ohio Caesars is leasing four floors of the building from Forest City, which is still reviewing the skywalk proposal. "We need to approve their plan as well," said spokesman Jeff Linton. "And we have not done that yet.""

 

the last chance...

"Rock Ohio Caesars is leasing four floors of the building from Forest City, which is still reviewing the skywalk proposal. "We need to approve their plan as well," said spokesman Jeff Linton. "And we have not done that yet.""

 

the last chance...

 

Everyone seems to be forgetting State and Federal officials as well.  We knew that Cleveland was going to approve (they only had asked for some revisions). 

Historic former department store abou to become former historic department store

A temporary skywalk for a temporary casino (what, would it be made of legos)? Or is it a permanent skywalk for a temporary casino?

 

Or is Gilbert full of $hit about this second stage nonsense

Everyone seems to be forgetting State and Federal officials as well.  We knew that Cleveland was going to approve (they only had asked for some revisions). 

 

Do they actually have the power to block the skywalk or just make FC pay back tax credits?  Quotes in the article imply the latter- is this not the case?

A temporary skywalk for a temporary casino (what, would it be made of legos)? Or is it a permanent skywalk for a temporary casino?

 

Or is Gilbert full of $hit about this second stage nonsense

 

As I understand it, the temporary casino has been ok'd by the government to stay a permanent casino, which would make the gerbil tube permanent as well.  Now whether or not a phase II ever sees fruition, I personally doubt it, but they said it will happen, just not as soon as the ballot said it would (ironic since I think we all voted for the thing on the ballot, not some horrendous alternative). 

Am I the only one on here that finds this not at all surprising.  All of it.  Every last piece of the puzzle. The "temporary casino."  The gerbil tube.  Tower City Amphitheatre as a parking lot.  All of it could have been predicted long ago. 

 

The only mystery to me is Gilbert's $85 million purchase--but I am willing call it a pay-off to the FCE machine.  He knew all along that was the cost of getting the deal done.  Even if it says the worlds most expensive parking lot....

Cleveland review bodies are winging it on the traffic impact of Rock Gaming's downtown casino

 

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The omnibus city planning review session Friday on the welcome center and overhead walkway for the new Caesars Horseshoe casino downtown offered stark evidence of the city’s willingness to play nice with Rock Gaming LLC, the project’s developer.

 

It also underscored the philosophical distance that separates Cleveland from cities with stronger design cultures, such as Chicago, San Francisco or Barcelona, Spain.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/08/cleveland_review_bodies_are_wi.html

 

As usual the comments on the article are crazy.  They morph into ripping on the Euclid Corridor project.

Am I the only one on here that finds this not at all surprising.  All of it.  Every last piece of the puzzle. The "temporary casino."  The gerbil tube.  Tower City Amphitheatre as a parking lot.  All of it could have been predicted long ago. 

 

The only mystery to me is Gilbert's $85 million purchase--but I am willing call it a pay-off to the FCE machine.  He knew all along that was the cost of getting the deal done.  Even if it says the worlds most expensive parking lot....

 

So you're implying that no new construction will be built? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

I'm guessing the new construction option is there for when it's time to expand, but if perchance the Higbee operation doesn't do as well as hoped, there's no way they build on that hillside.  That there's a substantial endeavor.  And don't forget, they apparently thought the city was going to move the river for them. 

 

And I still dig the skywalk.

If you guys think Gilbert would pay $85 million dollars for the land behind Tower City and NOT build on it your crazy. The (2nd) permanent casino is coming although it will probably take longer than most of us would like.

We have plentiful examples of how buying land does not guarantee construction.  But I don't doubt it will happen, because I expect the Higbee operation will go well.  My guess is they wait till they're allowed to include a hotel, then build. 

A couple of points. One, I must be the only person on this forum that's ok with this. lol. If this casino is going to get even close to their target projections of people on a regular basis (and based on what I know about other casinos, I have no reason to think they won't), then they're going to need a very large parking operation. What's the point in having the casino to begin with if its not going to be able to have the things necessary to be competitive. If it doesn't have that parking operation, the whole thing may not work. So in my mind, this is non-negotiable. They need this in order to be competitive so they should do it. Period. As far as the skywalk, I'm ok with it as long as it doesn't jeopardize the historical tax credits. If it does, they shouldn't do it. But they need what they need to be competitive. Also, by deliberately having nothing but a bar and a buffet in the casino, putting only one restaurant in the welcome center and by creating a total rewards program that gives their customers discounts for eating at area restaurants (both of which they're doing) will cause increased foot traffic anyway, regardless of where they park at.

 

As far as phase 2 getting built, my thoughts on that is this: a) I doubt Rock Gaming would make more money if that land was a parking lot as opposed to what would be essentially another casino. If they hit their projections in the Higbee building, why wouldn't they build another casino? That's just more money for them. It makes good business sense to build phase 2 and get what is, for all intents and purposes, two casinos for the price of one. That's a good deal. Second, if the Rock had not reached an agreement with Gov. Kasich about keeping both phases open, then I'd agree that it probably wouldn't be built. But because the state is going to regulate phase 1 and 2 as one single casino, I believe there's at least a 50/50 chance that phase 2 should be built. And don't forget, Ceasar's also own Thistledown. I would not be surprised if we see a relocation and a conversion of Thistledown into a racino. Just my thoughts.

1) Per my understanding, the gerbil tube (or some other indoor walkway) was REQUIRED for the financing of this project to be approved.  Don't jump down my throat, as I DON'T like it, but if that is truly the case, then this should not all be blamed on Gilbert.

 

2) Phase II WILL be built.  They will not wait to gauge the success of phase I to begin with that.  It is a go.  I get that from the best source on the subject I have and he is one of TPTB in the process.

 

3) Moving the river was thrown out there as an idea, but never seriously considered.  And it would not have been up to the City for approval.  Same source.

If you guys think Gilbert would pay $85 million dollars for the land behind Tower City and NOT build on it your crazy. The (2nd) permanent casino is coming although it will probably take longer than most of us would like.

 

Why wouldn't he flush the $85 mi awayl if he is guaranteed on making HUNDREDS of millions in a short term from a property that requires far less of a substantial investment?    I just get the feeling that the Higbee building will be THE casino for the foreseeable future.

If you guys think Gilbert would pay $85 million dollars for the land behind Tower City and NOT build on it your crazy. The (2nd) permanent casino is coming although it will probably take longer than most of us would like.

 

Why wouldn't he flush the $85 mi awayl if he is guaranteed on making HUNDREDS of millions in a short term from a property that requires far less of a substantial investment?    I just get the feeling that the Higbee building will be THE casino for the foreseeable future.

But if you could double your money by having essentially two casinos, why wouldn't you? Giving up the opportunity to make hundreds of millions of dollars ON TOP of the hundreds of millions of dollars you'd make in the Higbee building is stupid. That's bad business. And people can say what they want about Dan Gilbert, but you don't become a billionaire by being bad at business unless you were born a billionaire.

 

I get the skepticism, but if you think it through, it doesn't make business sense to not build phase 2 especially after 1) you paid $85 million dollars for the land (I know few businessmen that would willingly and deliberately waste that kind of money. Businessmen just don't think that way) and 2) you fought with the state to get the exception in order to keep both casinos open anyway. That makes no sense. You just got what is tantamount to a legal loophole where you're gonna get to have (basically) two casinos when you were only allowed one, and you don't think they'd take advantage of that? Of course they would. Any good businessman would. You were just given a legal loophole on a silver platter. They will use it. Whether they build a new casino or relocate Thistledown and make a racino, I don't know. But they will build something gaming related on that land.

With the blatant disregard for what the constitution says it may be easy to be cynical when it comes to things like the new construction being built but it would be a serious thing if Gilbert and Ceasers decided not to do what we voted on them doing. It specifically says that these casinos have to be NEW construction. From what I've always understood, the complexity of building in that spot would have led to a substantial delay and instead of waiting they got approval to build a phase one of the project to start making their money sooner than later.

 

And people keep calling these two different casinos. That's not true, won't they be connected underground? And smack dab in the middle of the two, where people will have to cross in order to get from one to the other will be tower city. This is a good thing, a lot better than Columbus where the religious right(aka nearly everyone in Columbus) forced the casino into the middle of nowhere. I'd rather have a first phase with a delayed but well planned second phase, then to move the project entirely out to Westlake or Strongsville.

If you guys think Gilbert would pay $85 million dollars for the land behind Tower City and NOT build on it your crazy. The (2nd) permanent casino is coming although it will probably take longer than most of us would like.

 

Why wouldn't he flush the $85 mi awayl if he is guaranteed on making HUNDREDS of millions in a short term from a property that requires far less of a substantial investment?    I just get the feeling that the Higbee building will be THE casino for the foreseeable future.

But if you could double your money by having essentially two casinos, why wouldn't you? Giving up the opportunity to make hundreds of millions of dollars ON TOP of the hundreds of millions of dollars you'd make in the Higbee building is stupid. That's bad business. And people can say what they want about Dan Gilbert, but you don't become a billionaire by being bad at business unless you were born a billionaire.

 

I get the skepticism, but if you think it through, it doesn't make business sense to not build phase 2 especially after 1) you paid $85 million dollars for the land (I know few businessmen that would willingly and deliberately waste that kind of money. Businessmen just don't think that way) and 2) you fought with the state to get the exception in order to keep both casinos open anyway. That makes no sense. You just got what is tantamount to a legal loophole where you're gonna get to have (basically) two casinos when you were only allowed one, and you don't think they'd take advantage of that? Of course they would. Any good businessman would. You were just given a legal loophole on a silver platter. They will use it. Whether they build a new casino or relocate Thistledown and make a racino, I don't know. But they will build something gaming related on that land.

 

Didn't the constitutional amendment specifically state that the riverfront behind Tower City would be the location of the casino, then Gilbert fought for the Higbees temporary location as rider to the deal?  In this case the $85 million saves him $400 million if he doesn't have to build a new structure in a market where casino business is way down and now a dime-a-dozen throughout middle America.  It also placates the long-term power brokers of Cleveland (aka Forest City).

 

THAT, is $85 million well spent and Gilbert remains the smart business man.

I was just curious if additional floors in the Higbee building could be had to expand the casino, if desired.

1) Per my understanding, the gerbil tube (or some other indoor walkway) was REQUIRED for the financing of this project to be approved.  Don't jump down my throat, as I DON'T like it, but if that is truly the case, then this should not all be blamed on Gilbert.

 

Right, but unless you have an inside source (which you might indeed have), isn't this understanding based on the PD articles, which are in turn based on what Gilbert's team is saying?  [EDIT, I just re-read your post and sounds like you do have an inside source.  But otherwise, I would have just taken what the PD reported with a grain of salt.

 

At the end of the day, I'm wondering if downtown would have just been better off with a single casino built on the originally designated site.  I suppose there would still be major parking/traffic issues, but would mean no skywalk into Higbee building and probably no demo of Columbia Bldg and less casino traffic making it north of Huron Ave.  It would also have meant foregoing a few years of Phase I casino tax money, but maybe it would have accelerated the construction of the larger new-build casino.

I heard where the Hot Wheels Set...parking garage... A.K.A. "Welcome Center" will have some street level retail/business space...  Is this true? It would be good to know the show of support for a re-design and exploring other options that were not actually explored... could have had some impact in revamping this terrible design.

If you guys think Gilbert would pay $85 million dollars for the land behind Tower City and NOT build on it your crazy. The (2nd) permanent casino is coming although it will probably take longer than most of us would like.

 

Why wouldn't he flush the $85 mi awayl if he is guaranteed on making HUNDREDS of millions in a short term from a property that requires far less of a substantial investment?    I just get the feeling that the Higbee building will be THE casino for the foreseeable future.

But if you could double your money by having essentially two casinos, why wouldn't you? Giving up the opportunity to make hundreds of millions of dollars ON TOP of the hundreds of millions of dollars you'd make in the Higbee building is stupid. That's bad business. And people can say what they want about Dan Gilbert, but you don't become a billionaire by being bad at business unless you were born a billionaire.

 

I get the skepticism, but if you think it through, it doesn't make business sense to not build phase 2 especially after 1) you paid $85 million dollars for the land (I know few businessmen that would willingly and deliberately waste that kind of money. Businessmen just don't think that way) and 2) you fought with the state to get the exception in order to keep both casinos open anyway. That makes no sense. You just got what is tantamount to a legal loophole where you're gonna get to have (basically) two casinos when you were only allowed one, and you don't think they'd take advantage of that? Of course they would. Any good businessman would. You were just given a legal loophole on a silver platter. They will use it. Whether they build a new casino or relocate Thistledown and make a racino, I don't know. But they will build something gaming related on that land.

 

Didn't the constitutional amendment specifically state that the riverfront behind Tower City would be the location of the casino, then Gilbert fought for the Higbees temporary location as rider to the deal?  In this case the $85 million saves him $400 million if he doesn't have to build a new structure in a market where casino business is way down and now a dime-a-dozen throughout middle America.  It also placates the long-term power brokers of Cleveland (aka Forest City).

 

THAT, is $85 million well spent and Gilbert remains the smart business man.

To my understanding, that's not how it happened. Dan Gilbert did not request the Higbee building for the phase 1 casino. The city of Cleveland did. The complexities of the land behind Tower City caused a delay in the target opening date and the city requested that they open what was then a "temporary" casino in the Higbee building because that could open sooner, Cleveland could be the first city in Ohio to open a casino, there would be guaranteed foot traffic near the Tower City complex, and the city could get the tax money right away.

 

Gilbert did not demand a rider for the Higbee building. He did demand that he would be able to keep both the Higbee casino and the Phase 2 casino open even though they would technically be two casinos. (Sidebar: why would he do that if he wasn't planning on building them both and keeping them both open?) The deal was, as long as they connect the Higbee building to the Phase 2 casino (likely with another skywalk) that the state would consider the complex to be one casino for regulation purposes. So I still stand by what I said. He wouldn't have paid $85 million for that land if phase 2 or some derivative wasn't going to be built on that land. Two casinos is still better than one. He will still make more money if phases 1 and 2 were open rather than just 1.

^Yes.  It will.

 

^^I believe I got that information from the PD or other articles, but such a requirement would hardly be surprising.  I doubt there is a requirement specifically for a skywalk, but the inclusion of connected and covered parking is almost certainly somewhere in the financing agreement.

 

I was just curious if additional floors in the Higbee building could be had to expand the casino, if desired.

To my knowledge, there are still tenants on some of those other floors. I believe Key Bank is renting some space on those floors.

I was just curious if additional floors in the Higbee building could be had to expand the casino, if desired.

To my knowledge, there are still tenants on some of those other floors. I believe Key Bank is renting some space on those floors.

 

Key is on like the top 3 floors I believe.