^Yes.  It will.

 

^^I believe I got that information from the PD or other articles, but such a requirement would hardly be surprising.  I doubt there is a requirement specifically for a skywalk, but the inclusion of connected and covered parking is almost certainly somewhere in the financing agreement.

 

 

Well they were making the aqrgument for near and adequate parking.  There was never really a confirmation of what the language actually was, nor did anybody with the city actually request this for confirmation or the details of this (which I think even you were saying the city should have required, before bending over). 

 

Also, in the amendment, the casino site for Cleveland was specified very broadly so that these options were open. 

I was just curious if additional floors in the Higbee building could be had to expand the casino, if desired.

To my knowledge, there are still tenants on some of those other floors. I believe Key Bank is renting some space on those floors.

 

Key is on like the top 3 floors I believe.

 

Floors 6, 8. and 9.

N.B. The Text of Issue 3:

• Did not specify new construction
  
• Did specify the property the Higbee building sits on ("the property situated south of Public Square, east of Superior Avenue, west of
  Ontario Street and north of W. Prospect Avenue") as a possible location
  
• Did authorize only a "single casino" in each city
  

A  couple things:  I hate tearing down beautiful old buildings like Columbia, but we had a Hobson's choice between Columbia and Stanley, and a lot of people wanted to save the older smaller Stanley; probably not my choice.  Columbia's now gone;  I think people need to move on.  It kind of reminds me of how folks objected to a convention center on the empty space btw Public Square and the WHD.  I wasn't wild about it being there, either, but now we still have an empty, ugly gaping hole that still keeps WHD isolated from the rest of downtown (unlike E.. 4th), with no prospects for development for the foreseeable future.

 

- But Columbia was sitting empty and, frankly, few people cared about it or had serious designs for it (that I know of) even when struggling David Myers College was still there a decade ago.  At least the parking garage will have street-level retail (including a few more leveraged shops than planned + a narrower driveway), on a totally dead strip of Prospect which, hopefully, will bridge the gap btw E.4th and Ontario.

 

- In Detroit's historic, bustling  Greektown, there's an overhead walkway directly into the  casino.  Also, Detroit's elevated People Mover squeezes thru G-town, but it's not the end of the world; Greektown still rocks!...  I don't like the overhead walkway into Higbee's, but it's not the end of the world here either as this is the back-side of Higbee's... Again, I don't like it, but on balance, I'm still excited about the overall prospect (no pun intended) of energy the casinos will bring to an area of largely empty buildings, regardless of how historic they are.

 

-- Gilbert will have hell to pay if he doesn't build the new casino in tandem with Higbee's.  Didn't he get a legal clause into the law the voter's passed specifically for the 2-phase project?  Plus, it would be suicidal P.R. for Gilbert to not build Phase II, esp considering the heat he's taking for Phase I.  Also, from what we've seen of Gilbert, it's not in his DNA to pocket the $$ and sit on simply a reno'd Higbee's; he's too brash and arrogant for that... We're used to lazy, do-little/nothing Cleveland types (like Miller/Ratner... I'll throw in Bob Starks, too, who only shoots off his mouth and keeps building in the suburbs); Gilbert's not from here... and in that sense, I think it's a good thing.

I guess I stand corrected about the requirement of new construction, but that doesn't make me any less sure that he'll build the new casino.

 

And by new I mean new construction.

There was no choice between the Stanley and the Columbia.  Gilbert did not have site control over the Stanley.  This is why that building is still standing.  He doesn't care at all about what a small band of preservationists think, and the City is obviously on it's knees, ready to please.

^Yes.  It will.

 

^^I believe I got that information from the PD or other articles, but such a requirement would hardly be surprising.  I doubt there is a requirement specifically for a skywalk, but the inclusion of connected and covered parking is almost certainly somewhere in the financing agreement.

 

 

Well they were making the aqrgument for near and adequate parking.  There was never really a confirmation of what the language actually was, nor did anybody with the city actually request this for confirmation or the details of this (which I think even you were saying the city should have required, before bending over). 

 

Also, in the amendment, the casino site for Cleveland was specified very broadly so that these options were open. 

 

I think I recommended a few pages back that those who are so fervently interested in these details should submit a public records request to the City.  Specifically, address it to Kim Roberson, the City's public information officer.  That is the only way to confirm what the City actually considered.

Also, by deliberately having nothing but a bar and a buffet in the casino, putting only one restaurant in the welcome center and by creating a total rewards program that gives their customers discounts for eating at area restaurants (both of which they're doing) will cause increased foot traffic anyway, regardless of where they park at.

 

And don't forget, Ceasar's also own Thistledown. I would not be surprised if we see a relocation and a conversion of Thistledown into a racino. Just my thoughts.

 

I didn't know that about the rewards program, I thought the rewards was going to be the Horseshoe Rewards program used throughout Caesar's, what restaurants does that entail (E.4, WHD, etc.)?  A racetrack downtown as part of phase II would be sweet, maybe they could have seahorse races in the river! :-)

I'm skeptical of the claim that the financing required the skywalk. If he's getting bank financing (through a syndication), banks are not typically going to insert themselves in the design process, other than to determine that loan to value, and proforma cash flow figures are where they need to be. They might be concerned with big picture items (i.e. insufficient parking, etc) but a design issue like having a walkway or not isn't something that really falls into their authority. In fact, it can be argued that they'd be prohibited from making design recommendations as that could be seen as trying to steer the business and raises lender liability issues down the road.

 

If its more capital markets type financing (conduit, life cos, etc) well, then they're more like a partner (at least in their eyes), so I suppose they might meddle in different design aspects.

I don't think the requirement was specifically for a skywalk, but rather just a certain number of connected parking spaces.  An underground connection was explored but ruled out for reasons I don't recall.  The design of the connection was left up to the developers.

I just got back from Toronto, and I would say half of that city's old or "century" building's have been torn down and replaced with concrete & glass but/and most importantly "people", thousands and millions of them.  It was simply refreshing to see people over-flowing on the streets, on all streets (and gasp, skywalks), even if they're walking by and living in concrete/glass monstrosities.

 

If tearing down "one" of way too many underused building's in need of millions in repairs/upgrades with no financing and usage in sight, and replacing it with a gaudy structure(s), but while attracting thousands of people to the city, why not?  There are plenty of other areas in the city where people could focus their preservation attention, like E. 9th, WHD, Euclid, etc, etc..  It's not like we just lost the Terminal Tower, the Arcade, or a 15th century cathedral or something, it was a square, barely hundred year-old, uninspiring, somewhat out-of-place bldg (belonged in the WHD) that was drawing no investment attention whatsoever, that was going to continue to deteriorate, becoming more and more of an eyesore.

 

I'm happy for the new business, infusion of people, new construction, and the possibility of all three of those things happening even more in the future.  We've got plenty of other underused/unkept bldgs scattered throughout downtown to turn our attention to now before they suffer the same fate.

If the Columbia building was torn down for something better, your point would have merit.  It was torn down for a parking garage.

^^AGREED.

 

I think some are taking the issue of the Columbia's demo and the new welcome center too far.  If PEOPLE are brought back downtown due to the loss of one, just one building which will be replaced with another building- including street-level storefronts, to me it's not that bad of a loss.  Before the Columbia's demolition, I don't recall anyone putting up much of a fuss as to why this building should be rehabbed, why there's a market for any particular type of rehab at this building's location, etc.  I will agree that the welcome center's design is uninspiring... but how inspiring does it need to be?  I don't think that people coming into the city to gamble will be judging the city by the architecture of the welcome center.  Instead, they'll be judging the city by venturing into the WHD, E.4th, a Cavs game before or after they leave the casino, Playhouse Square, etc.  I think that's what really matters. 

If the Columbia building was torn down for something better, your point would have merit.  It was torn down for a parking garage.

 

Agreed.

Aww, but a parking garage with a restaurant and souvenir shop at street level.  :clap:

Let's wait for the specifics before labeling it as simply a "parking garage".  It will certainly be more than that and there certainly will be more people and activity on the corner of Prospect and Ontario compared with what the status quo was at the time of demolition.  I too definitely wish the Columbia was saved, but I won't let my dislike for that decision preclude me from thinking rationally about this development.  There was no street level activity at that point of the intersection.  It was occupied by two abandoned buildings and an out of place two floor office building which housed two of the most despicable divorce attorneys this town has ever seen.  To the point that this will immediately inject some life there, I get what the above poster was saying

^I really don't see how a parking garage with a fancy valet waiting area (oh I'm sorry...."welcome center") and some minor retail spaces is going to increase street activity to any great extent (especially with the gerbil tube).  If your definition of "activity" is people parking and crossing the street more than happens at that intersection now...well I guess you are right.

 

EDIT:  By the way....agree with you about the two most despicable lawyers (not just divorce lawyers) in town.  I had a minor case with the office once and aged 5 years handling it.

I think his point is that it will bring more people than a vacant building did. I'm not sure how many people went out of their way to pass by that building after that college left, it was a dead corner. Not everybody will use the walkway, especially in nice weather, some will, but not all. I for one will probably never drive there, I have the rapid, 26 and 55 on weekdays as an option so I'll probably never step foot in their welcome center. But for those car loving suburbanites that do drive, I'm sure many will make use of a warm June day and walk across the street instead of opting for the walkway.

 

What the casino needs to do to assure that people don't mindlessly use the walkway is to make the entrance on the ground level, not give them an entrance to the casino from the second level. This will mean that people have to walk down to the first level regardless at some point. People may still enter using the walkway but when they leave it would probably be easier for them just to go out onto the street and walk across. And yeah, the retail will probably be a souvenir shop and the restaurant will be something casino related, but it's a start.

 

The two-story building is being replaced by a two-story building.

 

As much as I dislike the taking-out of the Columbia and the addition of this autocentric "Welcome Ctr", mostly because those things change the Lower Prospect neighborhood forever, I am for the skywalk and don't mind that it pierces into the back of the Higbee Bldg (it'd be a different story for me if it was somewhere else). It's needed. And not everybody is going to use it. It's an option and, as has been said, "connected" spaces were probably part of the deal. Not everybody is a twenty-, thirty- or forty-something looking to paint the town red before or after gambling. And not everyday's weather is like today. Still, people will be out on the sidewalks year-round.

 

It seems possible that the Americans With Disabilies Act might even come into play here.

 

 

Let's wait for the specifics before labeling it as simply a "parking garage".  It will certainly be more than that and there certainly will be more people and activity on the corner of Prospect and Ontario compared with what the status quo was at the time of demolition.  I too definitely wish the Columbia was saved, but I won't let my dislike for that decision preclude me from thinking rationally about this development.  There was no street level activity at that point of the intersection.  It was occupied by two abandoned buildings and an out of place two floor office building which housed two of the most despicable divorce attorneys this town has ever seen.  To the point that this will immediately inject some life there, I get what the above poster was saying

Wouldn't street life would have improved by simply being in between the premiere entertainment district, E. 4th, and the casino with its millions of projected visitors?

 

From the renderings, it doesn't even look like they give you the option to walk outside.  You drop your car off at the valet, enter the "welcome center" and take the elevator to the bridge floor.

 

Also, the Columbia was purchased by Gilbert's group with the sole intention of tearing it down, so calling it "abandoned" or the PD's favorite line, "vacant for years" is just a lie.

If they wanted to improve downtown, they should have bought the shitty parking May Co. parking deck at Ontario and Prospect and torn that down, then redevelop the Columbia Building with apartments.

 

But the principals involved with this project have a track record of building suburban shopping centers. So the concepts of urbanism, street presence and historic preservation aren't exactly familiar to them. And our city officials and design/review boards did not feel confident enough in Cleveland having more to offer to them than the developers had to offer to Cleveland. In short, they were feeling lonely, unloved and desperate enough to let the developers have their way with the city in order to get this project built.

From the renderings, it doesn't even look like they give you the option to walk outside.  You drop your car off at the valet, enter the "welcome center" and take the elevator to the bridge floor.

 

Like I said and as is often the suggestion from the TPTB around here for projects that have not already recieved the board's consesus opinion death sentence where the developers can do no right short of raining gold from the sky, let's wait for details.  If what you assume is the case, I definitely will have an issue with it.  But I highly doubt that the only exit from where you park and/or drop off your car will be the gerbil tube.  Lots of reasons why that wouldn't be the case.  Fire code, for one.

The renderings are online via the planning commission.  There is one street exit one the far end of the ground floor.  There are elevators and escalators with signs that say "Casino" as soon as you walk into the welcome center

So they do give you the option to walk outside?  I figured your statement on that point might have been a little exaggerated.  FWIW, the renderings I have seen have a door caddy-cornered right under the skywalk, as well (which might have been the door you were referring to).  I have to imagine that the Welcome Center will have some route by which you can access those doors if you prefer crossing Ontario to taking the skywalk.  They can't be just for show.  And I can nearly guarantee you there will be more than one exit and that won't be up to the developers to decide.

FWIW, the renderings I have seen have a door caddy-cornered right under the skywalk

 

Correct.  Rendering #20 on the planning commission site shows doors leading out onto what seems to be Ontario near the intersection with Prospect.

Those doors are for the restaurant.  Is there a connection between the valet drop off and the restaurant?

If the Columbia building was torn down for something better, your point would have merit.  It was torn down for a parking garage.

And if every building torn down had to have a new/better one replace it

If the Columbia building was torn down for something better, your point would have merit.  It was torn down for a parking garage.

Here's my point.  Option 1 - Unused, unkept building left standing, resulting in less casino traffic, aka "people" visiting downtown.  Option 2 - Unused, unkept building torn down and replaced with a necessary component to the Casino, resulting in more traffic or "people" visiting downtown, increasing the chance that they visit establishments outside of the Casino.

 

I'll take Option 2, and hope that enough resources can now be thrown at numerous other unused, unkept buildings so they can avoid the same fate as the Columbia bldg.

just a thought, but perhaps saving and prepping/fixing up nearby unkept out-buildings should be part of the deal for the next mega scheme that comes along?

 

 

We do know that there must be other exit/entry accomodations planned since...from Friday August 19's article in the PD..."Craig Wasserman, an architect representing developer Rock Ohio Caesars, told the group that the skywalk probably would open a couple of months after the casino."

 

(http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/08/cleveland_officials_okay_casin.html)

 

 

The Casino is, by all accounts, opening without the bridge.

Those doors are for the restaurant.  Is there a connection between the valet drop off and the restaurant?

 

Image 3 shows the overhead plan.  I believe the red arrows are exits/entrances.  There it shows an exit to the sidewalk next to the elevators.  I was wrong before in saying the doors led to Ontario.  They lead to Prospect.

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2011/08192011/index.php

 

I can't post the individual slides, so:

 

Slide #3 - Shows that when you drop off your car at the valet, you walk right into the entrance for the escalators.  There is one street exit at the far end of the lobby, and another one through the small retail store.  Both exit you onto prospect, away from the corner.  To doors on the corner, under the bridge are for the large retail space, not connected internally to the valet drop off.

 

Slide #20 Shows a rendering of the lobby, with the escalators, the street exit and the small retail spot.

 

Slide #19 Shows the pick up, with the drop off and lobby in the backround.  You can see how prominent the escalators are in the lobby.

 

 

EDIT: Slide #4 and #5 If you self park, the parking lobby is on the second floor, next to the bridge.  Only the valet lobby is on the first floor

 

If I am missing something, please tell me.  The above slides say to me, that if you park in the "welcome center" there is not a convenient way to walk to the casino without going through that bridge.

 

This is a good thing, a lot better than Columbus where the religious right(aka nearly everyone in Columbus) forced the casino into the middle of nowhere.

I apologize in advance for this off-topic post, but heatohio's erroneous statement can't go unchallenged.

 

Especially considering that there is an entire thread devoted to Why Is Columbus So GAY?.

I'm not sure what you expect.  Both are reasonably easy to use.  Sure, the escalators are prominent, but the street exit is also not difficult to get to (and arguably more convenient when returning to the pick up location).

 

People who want to go straight to the casino entrance will most likely use the gerbil tube, sure.  But people who want to do something else first should have no problem using the street exit.

 

I'm not happy about the whole welcome center thing (or Columbia Building demolition) either, but I don't see the design prohibiting those who would venture out onto the street from doing so.

This is a good thing, a lot better than Columbus where the religious right(aka nearly everyone in Columbus) forced the casino into the middle of nowhere.

I apologize in advance for this off-topic post, but heatohio's erroneous statement can't go unchallenged.

 

Especially considering that there is an entire thread devoted to Why Is Columbus So GAY?.

 

Good catch.  That was definitely uncalled for (at least the part in parenthesis, I can't speak to the rest as I don't know how the site selection happened).

Let's not forget that this is parking FOR the casino.  Of course it is designed to shuttle people comfortably into the casino.  "Right this way, sir"..... "look at our flashing lights and fancy decor".  That is kind of the point.  The fact that there is a welcome center BEFORE they even hit the casino could be viewed as a positive. relatively speaking.  Let's say Suzie and Jimbo Exurb arrive at the casino and decide they want to grab a drink to loosen up or maybe a quick bite.  They don't have any idea where to go.  In that case, maybe the Welcome Center's design can be helpful.  Shuttle them right out on prospect and the ones that survive the death gauntlet of vehicular traffic pouring out of the matchbox set at blinding speeds will probably be inclined to take Euclid on their way back to the casino.

 

According to the renderings, East First St. (the covered alley that runs along the May Co Bldg from Prospect to Public Square) gets extended into this project.  It terminates near the first floor Valet Drop-off area but there are other points of entry/exit for it.  It looks like you could valet and use E. First St. to walk to the Prospect Ave sidewalk.

Well, I suppose you could look to the skywalk nearby that spans Huron and connects to Gund....err the Q.  How does that corner look during a game or other high traffic event?

Just had to include this letter to the editor

 

Can't stop progress for Cleveland's few pedestrians

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/letters/2011/08/cant_stop_progress_for_clevela.html

 

....Why should Cleveland be unduly concerned with pedestrians when there are so few, and our economic health depends on such things as the casino?

 

 

"economic health depends on the casino" :roll:

 

And maybe there would be more pedestrians if we actually did care about them when we built things.

"economic health depends on the casino" :roll:

 

And maybe there would be more pedestrians if we actually did care about them when we built things.

 

Few people understand that the type of built environment creates pedestrian activity, including the people in charge of building the casino.

Few people understand that the type of built environment creates pedestrian activity, including the people in charge of building the casino.

 

You're probably right, but it still amazes me.  It seems like it should be simple logic.

I can't think of a more ignorant comment by this dolt.

^you clearly didn't read this gem that comes right on its heels.

 

Note, this is a 'letter to the editor', not a random comment.

 

Skywalk won't mar a masterpiece

Published: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 4:02 AM

 

"...Quit yer bellyachin'. Let the skywalk be built. "

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/letters/2011/08/skywalk_wont_mar_a_masterpiece.html#incart_mrt

 

Well, since you worked there, I guess you have a point...

^I work there too and I disagree with that writer...<implode>

So with all this talk of the skywalk and "temporary Casino" when will they start to build on the slope behind tower city??? It seems that the focus is the temporary casino, not the real deal?

There is nothing 'temporary' about the Higbees building.  Per my understanding and regardless of what is built along the river, this 'first phase' is here to stay.

So could we have 2 casinos then? 1 in the higbee building and a new one on the slope? I have become a bit confused over the past couple months over this whole thing.

So could we have 2 casinos then? 1 in the higbee building and a new one on the slope? I have become a bit confused over the past couple months over this whole thing.

 

It seems this is gone over about every week.  Cleveland, read the posts on here from the past week.

It was pretty clear in the PD when Kasich & Gilbert reached their agreement.

The bottom 4 floors of the Higbee's building will be called Phase 1 of the casino.  It is not temporary.  The plan is to build the Phase 2 part behind Tower City and across the street from the Q.  The Higbee's part of the casino is permanant.

 

I used to be a really happy camper with this arraingement until the whole "welcome center" was added to the mix.

 

I'm skeptical that Phase 2 will ever get built.  The reason I say that is that the expected crowds of millions of gamblers to the Higbee's portion of the casino seem very inflated.  Once they do not get their "expected" number of gamblers they can shelve the Phase 2. 

 

It is true that Dan Gilbert spent $85MM on the land which is a huge amount, but the land is valuable, and I have a feeling that Forest City knew they would loose the valuable tax credits with the pedestrian bridge, so that was part of the deal.

 

In summary:

FACTS: The Higbee's building will be a permanent casino.  Plans are being developed for new contruction of a second phase of one very large casino.