August 24, 201113 yr Let's not forget that this is parking FOR the casino. Of course it is designed to shuttle people comfortably into the casino. "Right this way, sir"..... "look at our flashing lights and fancy decor". That is kind of the point. The fact that there is a welcome center BEFORE they even hit the casino could be viewed as a positive. relatively speaking. Let's say Suzie and Jimbo Exurb arrive at the casino and decide they want to grab a drink to loosen up or maybe a quick bite. They don't have any idea where to go. In that case, maybe the Welcome Center's design can be helpful. Shuttle them right out on prospect and the ones that survive the death gauntlet of vehicular traffic pouring out of the matchbox set at blinding speeds will probably be inclined to take Euclid on their way back to the casino. Exactly, the Welcome center is for the casino. And you're right, that's the idea. I look at it like this: its in everybody's best interest that this casino succeeds. It cannot succeed if it is not competitive and not having a large scale parking operation will hurt its ability to be competitive. Without this Welcome Center, the casino has a hard time of being successful when there's so much competition around it. This casino needs to at least match the amenities of other casinos in order for it to have a shot at being successful. It's a no-brainer. This is what they need to compete, so give it to them. Plus, as a general rule, unless its a building of historical significance, I'm not a big fan of holding up progress for a vacant building that no one else wants. If there was an alternative plan for the Columbia Building, then the argument to save it might have more merit. But I didn't hear any plan to redevelop the building. Everyone talked about "saving" this building, but never talked about what they wanted to do with it after it was "saved". Activity is better than no activity. And in most cases, a building with something in it is better than a vacant building.
August 24, 201113 yr ^Casino needs parking. OK. Across the street from the casino is.........a parking garage The reason the Columbia building was vacant was because Dan Gilbert owned it, and wanted to tear it down to build a parking lot if his casino measure passed. I am pretty sure the idea of converting it to residential, much like the successful 668 building, was tossed out there. Historic renovations are very popular, but you need historic buildings in order to renovate them.
August 24, 201113 yr ^Casino needs parking. OK. Across the street from the casino is.........a parking garage The reason the Columbia building was vacant was because Dan Gilbert owned it, and wanted to tear it down to build a parking lot if his casino measure passed. I am pretty sure the idea of converting it to residential, much like the successful 668 building, was tossed out there. Historic renovations are very popular, but you need historic buildings in order to renovate them. The casino needed a LARGE scale parking garage that is befitting of a casino. What was there wouldn't do. Ok you say there was a plan for the Columbia building, where was it? Was there any money behind it? Were the developers ready to go had it not been torn down? Leaving vacant buildings vacant and hoping that the right plan might eventually come around some day is insanity to me. We still have a good amount of historical buildings in Cleveland. It's not like they tore down City Hall. Its a building that's been vacant for years and most likely would still be vacant had it been "saved". The Stanley Block building has an extensive Union history, which gives a stronger argument for saving that building.
August 24, 201113 yr ^Let me go ahead and preach to the choir here. That sort of "vacant buildings have no value" thinking is the reason we have a gigantic hole in the Warehouse district, the teeth punched out of our downtown commercial corridors, and barely any East Side left between 55th and East Boulevard.
August 24, 201113 yr Do you believe in zoning? Do you believe in urban planning? Do you believe in assigning landmark status to buildings? If the answer to all 3 is no, then we will have to agree to disagree
August 24, 201113 yr ^Let me go ahead and preach to the choir here. That sort of "vacant buildings have no value" thinking is the reason we have a gigantic hole in the Warehouse district, the teeth punched out of our downtown commercial corridors, and barely any East Side left between 55th and East Boulevard. I never said "vacant building have no value". Never said it. I do believe that vacant buildings (other than ones of historical significance--don't ignore that I said that too) have no value if they remain vacant. That's common sense. If there is a plan for a building that is more of a better use, then go with it. But, imo, leaving a vacant building vacant and praying that the right plan will come along eventually is stupid. For example, in Ohio City they fought to keep a check cashing place and a liquor store off of West 25th. I supported their efforts. Why? Because the location was where the Market Garden wanted to be (and is located now). That's what I'm talking about. If there's a better alternative, go with the alternative. If not, leaving a vacant building vacant with no concrete plan to do anything with it ever is dumb.
August 24, 201113 yr Do you believe in zoning? Do you believe in urban planning? Do you believe in assigning landmark status to buildings? If the answer to all 3 is no, then we will have to agree to disagree Yes, yes, and yes. But within reason. I'm pragmatic. And on landmark status, I don't believe in assigning landmark status to buildings just because they're old. I believe in assigning landmark status to buildings that have historical significance (as I've said repeatedly). As I've said over and over again, if there's a better alternative, then go with the alternative. But I don't support leaving a vacant building vacant and hoping, wishing and praying that the right plan comes around some day because, in most cases, it never does, and down the road we either still end up with a vacant building or someone with money comes around later and proposes something worse than this plan.
August 24, 201113 yr Last time I checked the Columbia building is little more than a hole in the ground and the welcome center had the go ahead to be built, with the walkway. Fighting over whether or not it's a good idea is a mute point. What we have to do is hope that this plan goes ahead smoothly and that downtown Cleveland is helped with it's revitalization from this project. The Columbia building was a nice looking building but I would assume the value in that particular spot would be more if it were something that would benefit the casino, like a welcome center. The value of a 20 unit (just guessing on the units it would hold) condo or rental apartment wouldn't be as high. Just like the big empty abyss on Superior and W6th is probably more profitable as a piece of concrete with lines painted on it now, but won't be once the casino and medical mart are finished. So once it has a more valuable purpose the owners of the land will make the most out of their property. And to the person that keeps saying that the phase two won't be built, that's crazy. The image Gilbert has created for himself around the area would be shot if he scrapped that idea. People around here wanted a shiny new casino and are accepting the phase one due to the complexity of building on the land behind Tower City. To turn around and just say "sorry, this is it Cleveland. Cbus, Toledo and Cincy got new ones but you get the storefront from the christmas story as your casino." That just won't fly.
August 24, 201113 yr ^^Yes and thank god they didn't tear down that building while it sat vacant for 9 years. FYI the Columbia had only been vacant 2 years.
August 24, 201113 yr I remember it when it was used for that college. I know that it wasn't vacant forever or in ruins. I have no doubt that it would have been a beautiful rehab project and would have made for some really nice apts. It just had a more valuable function as a pile of rocks.
August 25, 201113 yr heatohio and kennybabes have earned themselves some time off. Folks, there are forums where profanity-laced insults at other forumers might fly, but not here. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
September 2, 201113 yr Keep it civil and keep it focused, OK people? I post this (from the Terminal Tower photo thread in the hopes we can discuss this project with some civility. I'm as pissed as anyone that they tore down my alma mater (Spencer/Dyke/Myers College). But it's done, so let's discuss the project, its construction progress and any photos we care to share..... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 3, 201113 yr I have to say that after looking at the slides submitted to City Planning, while I would have still preferred to have the building rehabbed, what they are doing could have definitely been much worse. The retail and restaurant components are a huge positive. I also think the huge LCD screen will bring Las Vegas/Time Square type "energy". Also, have the owners of the Stanley Building mentioned what they want to do it with it? I would guess that it would be prime candidate for retail/restaurant development with all the "traffic" generated by the welcome center. Finally, I'm hopeful that this welcome center will result in retail/restaurant development on the May Co. building across the street from it.
September 3, 201113 yr I have to say that after looking at the slides submitted to City Planning, while I would have still preferred to have the building rehabbed, what they are doing could have definitely been much worse. The retail and restaurant components are a huge positive. I also think the huge LCD screen will bring Las Vegas/Time Square type "energy". Also, have the owners of the Stanley Building mentioned what they want to do it with it? I would guess that it would be prime candidate for retail/restaurant development with all the "traffic" generated by the welcome center. Finally, I'm hopeful that this welcome center will result in retail/restaurant development on the May Co. building across the street from it. I agree. I want Times Square type energy in downtown Cleveland. I've long thought that our biggest competitive advantage is being able to offer a NYC lifestyle at a ridiculously low cost of living. So I love this. Its right down the street from Playhouse Square, our "Broadway", so the LCD screen and some extra lights could really increase the synergy between the Casino and Playhouse and set the tone for the entire district, really. The casino is projected to draw 100,000 people a week. I definitely think that new development will spill over to the May Co. Building and I don't think the Stanley Block building will remain vacant for long either.
September 3, 201113 yr Ground level retail will probably work in that building...I am trying real hard to figure out what can go in floors 2 and 3 (can't tell if there is 4th or is it attic)? I cant imaging anyone wanting to live there with a Parking garage wrapped around 3 sides of you. And I wonder if they can or will try to work some sort of entrance into the garage space, from the backs or sides. If they could "buy" like 8 or 16 spaces and be able to enter directly from the garage, somebody might consider living there. 4 units a floor if you have direct access parking.
September 7, 201113 yr Horseshoe Casino Cleveland now hiring 500 dealers; no experience necessary Published: Wednesday, September 07, 2011, 12:03 AM Updated: Wednesday, September 07, 2011, 7:06 AM By Dave Davis, The Plain Dealer CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Forget about the bricks-and-mortar work that's being done to turn the Higbee Building into a Las Vegas-style casino. Forget about the hundreds of millions of dollars being spent there on construction, gambling equipment and lavish furnishings. Today, in what will mark a milestone in the development of Cleveland's Horseshoe Casino, officials with Dan Gilbert's gambling company and Caesars Entertainment Corp. are set to deliver on the promise that is perhaps most important to the residents of Northeast Ohio: Jobs. READ MORE AT: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/09/cleveland_horseshoe_casino_now.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 7, 201113 yr People getting jobs is great, but I still can't muster any enthusiasm for this or any casino in my 'hood...
September 7, 201113 yr Yep, I hear ya. But let's keep this discussion on the project itself -- not the merits or lack of merits of casinos. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 7, 201113 yr Has anyone seen or heard about interest from Mr. Gilbert to alter the right of ways for pedestrians at the intersection of Prospect/Ontario. I would imagine there is interest in painting (paving?) a diagonal walkway across the intersection so that guests could cross with both lights on "Red".
September 7, 201113 yr I would imagine there is interest in painting (paving?) a diagonal walkway across the intersection so that guests could cross with both lights on "Red". Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning this, I'd consider it ridiculous -- but I wouldn't put it past the Casino or the City to make it happen. Diagonal crosswalks are fairly common. There was even one in downtown Lakewood once upon a time..... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 7, 201113 yr Doesn't the proposed tube to be shoved up Higbee's @ss accomplish the same thing?
September 7, 201113 yr Once again, I'm not too worried about the overhead walkway b/c it's on Higbee's/Horseshoe's back side... Question: are there any proposals for the Goldfish Army/Navy block next to the parking garage/former Columbia site? These aren't beautiful buildings, but maintain an old-time traditional feel on Prospect and would be a nice bridge/in-fill between the casino and E. 4th. Seems this group would be ripe for our typical adaptive-reuse, mixed-use apts + ground-floor retail development. Are the Marons (or somebody) already on this?
September 7, 201113 yr Re: Goldfish Army/Navy block, I've never heard anything about those buildings involving the casino. Might be a good question for the East 4th thread! ;-) "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 7, 201113 yr Diagonal crosswalks are fairly common. There was even one in downtown Lakewood once upon a time..... I spent some time in Toronto recently and they had a few 'pedestrian scrambles' as they called them. The most prominent one was on Dundas and Yonge. I'm not sure Cleveland has the foot traffic to justify any at the moment, but that could change when the casino opens. If they don't get their walkway approved then I would petition the city for a pedestrian scramble at Ontario and Prospect. I also think one could work at W6th and St. Clair. In general though you need relatively narrow roads with a lot of traffic as well as heavy pedestrian counts. Most of our roads with heavy traffic are very wide making it impractical to allow a diagonal crossing because it would simply take too long. They are cool though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_scramble
September 8, 201113 yr Discussion of the Stanley Block was moved to the Cleveland Demolition Watch: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7006.0.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 9, 201113 yr When you stop midway across the crosswalk which crosses Ontario at Euclid, turn and look south, in the space between Horsehoe/Higbee's and what will be the new parking garage/retail/welcome center, you see... blue skies framing a radio tower, to the right, and a tall, black smokestack in the center. And this is the vista we're fighting to save?... Sorry, I'll take a shiny, state-of-the-art steel & glass, well-lit, diagonal overhead walkway that will make us look like a modern city.
September 9, 201113 yr ^"when" the Phase 2 of the casino will be built, you will have that view blocked I will miss the view from E.4th and prospect. I think its cool how the Higbee's building's notched facade peeks out and draws your eye into the massive Tower City complex.
September 9, 201113 yr IF they make this an interesting, architectual piece with fun lighting it MAY work. I would like to see some examples of some "modern cities" that have cool skyways. I've image searched them and found very few neat skyways.
September 9, 201113 yr The vista looking South from Ontario and Euclid is not the primary view to save. Looking North from Ontario and Huron area provides a nice view right through town all the way to the courthouse. And the view that has already been mentioned (from E4th and Prospect) is also quite impressive. I'm not opposed to enclosed connections of buildings, but I'd rather they be underground. Just my opinion.
September 9, 201113 yr Once again, I'm not too worried about the overhead walkway b/c it's on Higbee's/Horseshoe's back side... Question: are there any proposals for the Goldfish Army/Navy block next to the parking garage/former Columbia site? These aren't beautiful buildings, but maintain an old-time traditional feel on Prospect and would be a nice bridge/in-fill between the casino and E. 4th. Seems this group would be ripe for our typical adaptive-reuse, mixed-use apts + ground-floor retail development. Are the Marons (or somebody) already on this? More parking lots and demolitions, would not surprise me in the least. But as someone stated...look at the photo and we see that the majority of space downtown there is reserved for cars and not people. So what justifies all the parking is baffling to me....and I have to wonder....for what would the parking serve if all the buildings that house office, work, and play spaces are eventually gone? Yes, worse case scene, but not impossible given the track history and the fact the same 70's mistakes of demolitions are still prevalent today; the mindset that thought demolishing Playhouse Square for parking would be a good idea. I welcome the day when..if we are going to have all these parking garages, that we may renovate some of them to actually look like living space with facades that disguise them. Still not fully digesting this whole design. I do have one question though...are their any plans at actually having on site stage entertainment in this casino that is more smaller club style? I mean not reverting to using the Q Arena for entertainment and calling it the casino entertainment place. Higbee's is surely big enough to create some sort of stage-like venue where Wayne Newton can sing! And RIP Robert Goulet.
September 15, 201113 yr @mjarboe just tweeted "OH preservation office: Thumbs-down on casino skywalk. Forest City may lose historic tax credits if casino developers build Higbee bridge."
September 15, 201113 yr Here is the article: "Proposed casino skywalk could put millions in tax credits in jeopardy for developers Published: Wednesday, September 14, 2011, 6:14 PM Updated: Wednesday, September 14, 2011, 6:26 PM By Stan Donaldson, The Plain Dealer with Dave Davis CLEVELAND, Ohio--A skywalk proposed to connect a parking garage to Cleveland's Horseshoe Casino could affect tax credits developers were granted because the structure is a historic building." Link: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/09/proposed_casino_skywalk_could.html
September 15, 201113 yr This is great news, to me, actually.... it will force them to actually be creative.
September 15, 201113 yr Win. This should force the casino to focus all of its energy on maintaining the street level environment.
September 15, 201113 yr I tried to tell you guys that this would be the likely outcome (I do this kind of stuff in Washington!). Thats not to say that Dan wouldnt just pay the penalties, which may just happen since the current design of the welcome center sort of revolves around having this bridge. I think they really thought given the bending over the city was doing that the bridge wouldnt be an issue.
September 15, 201113 yr or they will simply write forest city a check for the cost of the lost tax credits... (aproximately $7-8 mil)
September 15, 201113 yr or they will simply write forest city a check for the cost of the lost tax credits... (aproximately $7-8 mil) That'd be my guess what they'll do.. $7-$8M is pocket change compared to the expected profits off of the Casino's..
September 15, 201113 yr I don't understand why they set penalties for landmark buildings. If it's so historical (and it damn sure is with Higbee), why set a price tag? Perhaps they thought it was so high that nobody would ever hit it, but that's not a scary number to some business folks in this day and age. If the city proclaims something historical, they shouldn't put any kind of price tag to tempt someone. Cleveland's historical buildings are like its children. I can't imagine a good parent putting any kind of price tag on their kids, even if they do think it'll never be reached.
September 15, 201113 yr Again, it's time to reconsider the tunnel idea. Reminder: the Higbee's space goes under Prospect Avenue as I'd shown in the original 1930 concourse level diagram. And there's a possibility of using an old trackspace under Ontario, too. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 15, 201113 yr Apologies if this is already posted somewhere, but do you have the diagram showing what you're talking about, KJP? Sounds interesting. Ultimately I'd rather people have to walk around Cleveland and see what we have to offer. But something underground would definitely be the lesser of two evils.
September 15, 201113 yr Nothing that we didn't know, but it looks like renovation is faster than new construction: in race to roll dice, cleveland casino a winner Thursday, September 15, 2011 In the race to roll the first set of dice in Ohio, it appears that Cleveland will be the big winner among the four new casinos. Cincinnati, according to this item in the Enquirer, likely will be the last. "Latest timetables show the Horseshoe Casino Cincinnati opening at Broadway Commons in spring 2013, a year after a Horseshoe Casino opens in Cleveland. Hollywood Casinos will open in Toledo in the first half of next year and in Columbus in the latter half." Delays caused by the recent state tax budget fight are to blame for pushing back the opening of the Cincinnati casino. Because the Cleveland casino is a renovation rather than new construction, the delays were less detrimental. http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/inthenews/clevelandcasino091511.aspx
September 15, 201113 yr its not really a penalty as much as it was an incentive to restore the building, and this ruling states that if they moved in this direction they would violate the rules of that restoration and forfeit the incentive ($7.8m). If they choose not to accept this money... they can do whatever they want provided it is approved by the city, which it has already been. I'm guessing all FCE cares about is the $7.8m, if someone were to pay them that amount (such as someone who wanted to erect a skywalk), well....
September 15, 201113 yr its not really a penalty as much as it was an incentive to restore the building, and this ruling states that if they moved in this direction they would violate the rules of that restoration and forfeit the incentive ($7.8m). If they choose not to accept this money... they can do whatever they want provided it is approved by the city, which it has already been. I'm guessing all FCE cares about is the $7.8m, if someone were to pay them that amount (such as someone who wanted to erect a skywalk), well.... Correct.
September 15, 201113 yr The article in the Cincinnati paper states that the Cleveland casino is opening first because city officials convinced Rock to open the casino in phases. I don't recall that being exactly accurate. Wasn't it Rock that was pushing for the "temporary" casino in the Higbee Building and it got the city on board with the idea?
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