I think they really thought given the bending over the city was doing that the bridge wouldnt be an issue. 

 

Such just showcases the arrogance of Dan and Co.

I think they really thought given the bending over the city was doing that the bridge wouldnt be an issue. 

 

Such just showcases the arrogance of Dan and Co.

 

Speculation.

Apologies if this is already posted somewhere, but do you have the diagram showing what you're talking about, KJP? Sounds interesting.

 

Ultimately I'd rather people have to walk around Cleveland and see what we have to offer. But something underground would definitely be the lesser of two evils.

 

It's posted in this thread. Being the nice guy that I am, I went back through the pages to look for it for you....

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,20680.msg566832.html#msg566832

 

:)

Apologies if this is already posted somewhere, but do you have the diagram showing what you're talking about, KJP? Sounds interesting.

 

Ultimately I'd rather people have to walk around Cleveland and see what we have to offer. But something underground would definitely be the lesser of two evils.

 

It's posted in this thread. Being the nice guy that I am, I went back through the pages to look for it for you....

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,20680.msg566832.html#msg566832

 

:)

 

Thanks! Still would rather people walk on the streets, but I also would've liked people to use one of the million-freaking parking lots/garages we already have instead of (RIP)Columbia. So I'll take this over more destruction to downtown!

The casino customers will expect to leave their winter wear; coats, boots, etc. in their cars and walk to the casino in a warm, protected environment.

There are coat checks for that like every other business in winter cities (even Florida for that matter) and if they keep the streets clean and sidewalks plowed and iced, there shouldn't be an issue.  I highly doubt that someone is going to refuse to go to a place because they don't have a skyway.

or they will simply write forest city a check for the cost of the lost tax credits... (aproximately $7-8 mil)

 

I have a feeling that was already negotiated when Rock Gaming bought the Tower City land for $85MM

 

Now let's see if they pull a stunt stopping renovations again, unless they get their way. 

or they will simply write forest city a check for the cost of the lost tax credits... (aproximately $7-8 mil)

 

I have a feeling that was already negotiated when Rock Gaming bought the Tower City land for $85MM

 

Now let's see if they pull a stunt stopping renovations again, unless they get their way. 

 

Well, thats not really negotiable.  They can squawk all they want about that.  That would be like arguing with the IRS.       

^I was implying that Forest City and Rock Gaming probably knew that the tax credits would go away if they did something like put in the walkway, so FCE put in an "insurance policy" into the $85MM that RG payed for the land for Phase 2

Pure speculation on my point, but FCE ain't dumb

I was saying that because of this: "Now let's see if they pull a stunt stopping renovations again, unless they get their way."

 

But yeah I could see that, and Forest City would likely understand the possible issue with the credits, I just dont think at the time when they purchased the land that they knew they would be putting a pedestrain bridge into Higbee. 

 

 

I was against the addition of this Welcome Ctr and the deleterious effect that it now has on the Lower Prospect neighborhood (I do not think, though, that this neighborhood is so fragile that it will not carry on).

Having said that, I am all for this skywalk and hope the vibe is something akin to, I don't know, umm Greektown in Detroit.

 

I'm going to hazard a guess that my 13 years of living in the CBD is one of the longer tenures of anyone on this message board.  I have walked countless times in every kind of weather at almost every hour of the day. Not to mention all of the times as a teenager and college student before moving here. To the post that says if the streets are just kept cleaned and de-iced, I would say fat chance on that. I can remember some of my jaunts around huge pools of slush and ice, where there was just no place for it to go, and not enough warmth from the sun to make it melt. Going from point A to B in downtown Cleveland in the heart of winter can certainly be an adventure sometimes. Don't misinterpret, I'm not complaining...after all, I'm still down here and I look forward to the coming snowfalls and whiteouts that await us. But I can see this cutting into business at a casino that is going to rely on day-trippers, etc.  Some people just won't go and that's bad for business. Forget too Gibert's desire to involve the urban fabric, he's a businessman.

I just can't see this skywalk not getting built (unless they go with a tunnel...I'm also for that). Why else have the damn Welcome Ctr. The whole  raison d'être of the thing is to have ...as Marcus Glover has repeatedly said...a continuous climate-controlled entryway to the Casino from the vehicle. The huge majority are going to drive here. As evidenced by our vast array of parking lots/garages, most people clearly drive here for everything downtown. Yes I  wish that was different, and yes I wish that would change. But it's not gonna change in the next 8 months.

And this  7-8 million that it may cost Rock, I can only believe that is chump change to them. Hell, with the onslaught of these money-savvy gamblers, even some...dare I say...swindler-types, there'll be more than enough "oh I slipped and tripped on your icy sidewalk outside the Welcome Ctr, my lawyer will contact your lawyer" to ring up 7 million over a few winters.

On BZA's agenda. Looks like they need a variance. Shouldn't they have discovered this sooner?....

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2011/crr09-26-2011.html

 

City of Cleveland

BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS

September 26, 2011

 

9:30

 

Ward 3

Calendar No.11-158:

          2105 Ontario Street

Joe Cimperman

 

 

11 Notices

USA Parking Systems, owner, and Ellsworth Grimsley appeal to erect a 53,600 square foot, casino visitor parking, Welcome Center on acreage located in an E5 General Retail Business District and proposing a driveway on Ontario Street that is less than 15 feet to the side property line, contrary to the regulations under Cleveland Codified Ordinance 343.18© and that any driveway in a General Retail District, providing access to a property, shall be located so that there is not less than 15 feet between the point of tangency of the driveway apron radius and a prolongation of the property line to the curb line measured at the curb line.  (Filed 8-25-11)

With regards to the raised walkway argument of why it is needed for the purpose of bad weather why is the covered parking through Tower City not an acceptable alternative?  Also I assume tourist buses cannot fit into The Welcome Center so where do they drop them off and park?

Because the parking behind TC is not "dedicated" casino parking.  From previous reports, the casino needs x amount of "dedicated" and "connected" parking.  I seem to also remember some roadblocks to the underground passage,

I thought that in Phase 1 there was only supposed to be one restaurant in the casino - that buffet we had been discussing earlier.  But now it looks like Michael Symon will be putting a B Spot there.  I think that's a good thing and could even be a great thing depending on how easy it is to access from outside of the casino.

 

Matt Harlan Promoted to B Spot Regional Mgr.: First Up, B Spot Casino!

Harlan's first order of business, he says, is to oversee the opening of the newest B Spot, set to open in the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland. "It's going to happen pretty fast," Harlan says.

 

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2011/09/22/matt-harlan-promoted-to-b-spot-regional-mgr-first-up-b-spot-casino

 

Obviously would have preferred to have seen this on the street...maybe some place in or near that "pedestrian friendly", "activity generating" parking garage (I'm sorry...I meant international welcome center).

 

Yes, this B-Spot has to interact with the street....

I'm going on the premise that the Welcome Center is part of the Casino. So when today's Scene article says "the newest B-Spot, set to open in the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland"... that could very well mean the corner ground level retail space at Prospect & Ontario. On those Planning Commission slides (http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2011/08192011/index.php), that corner retail space is listed at 4,000 square feet. From a Feb 14, 2011 Crain's article Another B Spot restaurant to open at Crocker Park (http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20110214/FREE/110219929#), there is this from the third paragraph:

 

"Michael Symon Restaurants signed the lease with Stark Enterprises for the approximately $700,000 burger joint in the Agave restaurant location — a 4,500-square foot space that is about 1,000 square feet larger than the planned B Spot location in Strongsville that is scheduled to open in mid-March. "

 

Just the right size for a B-Spot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, this B-Spot has to interact with the street....

I'm going on the premise that the Welcome Center is part of the Casino. So when today's Scene article says "the newest B-Spot, set to open in the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland"... that could very well mean the corner ground level retail space at Prospect & Ontario. On those Planning Commission slides (http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2011/08192011/index.php), that corner retail space is listed at 4,000 square feet. From a Feb 14, 2011 Crain's article Another B Spot restaurant to open at Crocker Park (http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20110214/FREE/110219929#), there is this from the third paragraph:

 

"Michael Symon Restaurants signed the lease with Stark Enterprises for the approximately $700,000 burger joint in the Agave restaurant location — a 4,500-square foot space that is about 1,000 square feet larger than the planned B Spot location in Strongsville that is scheduled to open in mid-March. "

 

Just the right size for a B-Spot.

 

Having a B-Spot downtown would be a fantastic thing if, as others have said before, its easily accessible from the street. I think you're on to something though. It makes the most sense for it to be in the Welcome Center.

^Unless they change the welcome center design, the retail space under the bridge is not accessible from the inside of the welcome center.  Casino patrons would have to exit onto Ontario and cross the street, or walk over the bridge, go down one floor, exit the building and come back in.

 

I think the B-spot will be in the Higbee's building

^Per the renderings, Isn't there retail space on the welcome center side of Ontario/Prospect? So you wouldn't have to cross the street.

^Yes, but Punchin' Pat is pointing out that the welcome center is designed to funnel people away from that retail space, so he suspects any hyped part of the casino is going to be in the Higbees Building.  Visitors will be up those escalators and in the skywalk before they ever notice there's something in that welcome center retail space.

^Per the renderings, Isn't there retail space on the welcome center side of Ontario/Prospect? So you wouldn't have to cross the street.

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2011/08192011/index.php

 

There may be an interior door between the first floor lobby and retail space, but the way the WC is layed out, the second floor lobby, at the foot bridge, is the main lobby.  It would be a hike from the casino to that spot.

 

In the NOLA casino, there is a bunch of local spots set up like a food court, and a John Besh restaurant.  John Besh is the chef Michael Simon beat out for Iron Chef.

there is an escalator from the 2nd floor lobby to the lower level. patrons would not have to enter the casino and then cross the street to access the "retail" space. And I am sure adding a rear entrance in the garage welcome center would be beyond easy. That being said, everything I had ever heard was that they envisioned that space as a casino gift shop, so this would be a pretty large departure. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this ended up in the lower level of TC by the buffet and dining area. Though it would certainly be a welcome change if it ended up in the garage welcome center.

^Unless they change the welcome center design, the retail space under the bridge is not accessible from the inside of the welcome center.  Casino patrons would have to exit onto Ontario and cross the street, or walk over the bridge, go down one floor, exit the building and come back in.

 

Fine by me!

That being said, everything I had ever heard was that they envisioned that space as a casino gift shop, so this would be a pretty large departure. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this ended up in the lower level of TC by the buffet and dining area. Though it would certainly be a welcome change if it ended up in the garage welcome center.

 

I thought I saw a rendering that had "Restaurant" above the corner space (or next to it on Prospect maybe).  Either way, I expect that this B Spot will be inside the casino, which is a shame.  Downtown could really use a good casual burger place like that which is accessible to everyone.  I bet this will be accessible only to patrons, similar to the B Spot in the Q (although at least you don't have to pay simply to enter the casino like you do for events at the Q).

Downtown could really use a good casual burger place like that which is accessible to everyone. 

 

Especially something that is open 24 hours. Until more 24-hour stores and restaurants are available, I can't see me leaving Lakewood for downtown.

Especially something that is open 24 hours. Until more 24-hour stores and restaurants are available, I can't see me leaving Lakewood for downtown.

 

Are there 24 hour places around Lakewood?  I rarely ever go to a 24 hour place because all the ones I know of are (IMO disgusting) places I would never eat, such as Steak-n-Shake and Denny's.  I don't think there's much of a market for quality food at 3 am.

Yes (Diana's Deli, Friends Deli, CVS, Walgreen's and two Giant Eagles).

 

I don't suspect there's a market for quality food at the casino either (how's that for BIBOT--Bringing It Back On Topic?!?). I'm envisioning something like the Hard Rock Cafe or Dave & Buster's. Ho hum food that makes want to get back to the craps tables, or crapper, which ever is more appropriate. Who knows -- perhaps the food offerings will be outstanding. Perhaps....

^ steal 'n' Shake is nasty, but Dennys is the best!!  :laugh:

 

Well hopefully they'll have some signange that will alert passerby that there is a restaurant open 24-hours.

Hopefully the Casino has a positive effect on 2013 Ontario

Long time lurker first time poster.  I've been away from Cleveland for 20 years and will be moving back within a few months.  I do keep up to date with what's going on in Cleveland.  But I'm confused with the Horseshoe Casino.  According to the Horseshoe Cleveland site, the casino is going to be in the old Higbee building and they are building a Welcome Center as well with a bridge connecting the two.  I went to this site to see the planning of it, http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2011/08192011/index.php  But what exactly is phase 2 going to be along W Huron Rd?  I've seen the rendering pictures of it and watched the video on Cleveland.com.

Hi SW, welcome aboard and welcome back to Cleveland! We missed you!!

 

I went to get the link for the new photospread of the casino project, but I saw you were already in there. But I will still post the link in case someone else visiting this thread wants to see it:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26324.0.html

 

FYI: there are some here at UO who have their doubts that phase 2 will ever be built considering the extent of investment that's being put into phase 1. But the only way we'll know for sure is to wait and see!

 

As for what features are proposed to be included in the Phase II of the casino, this article reports only the following:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/02/dan_gilberts_casino_company_an.html

Phase II of the Cleveland casino is to open on 16 acres on Huron Road sometime late in 2013 [KJP: looks like it will actually be 2015]. It will be a larger, chic riverfront casino complex wrapped with upscale shops, large-scale video screens, street-level plazas and alfresco dining. The developer recently purchased the Huron Road land for $85 million from Forest City.

 

Thank you KJP. I was going to put the Casino photos on this thread but posting 30 photos all at once told me a separate thread would be the better way to go.

Thank you for the reply.  So as I understand it, the Higbee building is only temporary for 4/5 years till they build the one on Huron Rd if they do? Are they going to close down the Higbee one once that one is built?

Higbee is phase one of a two phase connected project....assuming they build phase two.  It will continue to be used.

I thought building phase 2 was part of Gilbert's deal in getting the issue passed... But I could be wrong... It does seem like a lot of $$ is being focused on Higbee's... I mean, would you really invest in an expensive (and controversial) overhead walkway to the parking lo--, er, I mean, welcome center to a temporary facility?  You guys' suspicion may be right.  It sure would tamp down my excitement for this project.

If Phase One is successful, why wouldn't they go ahead for Phase Two? The only way I see Phase Two being shelved is if Phase One doesn't meet revenue expectations. This would be an unfortunate scenario, but I think Gilbert has intentions to build Phase Two.

 

How much did the gaming company pay for the Huron Road land? I think it was $85 Million. I think I would build something there if I spent $85 Million on land.

for whatever it's worth, my father was talking to someone who was doing construction on phase I of the casino.  The guy said that phase II is set up with this company and is supposed to be a go.

I still do not believe Phase 2 will ever be built, at least as it was presented on paper.  If and when ground is broken I think we'll see a drastically downgraded version, in which the parking element is seriously increased. 

 

Just my gut instinct....

As mentioned above I think $85 million is too much to spend to not do anything with the land. I think the second phase will be built and even if its not built, I think a hotel, or restaurants and retail would be built there given the attractiveness of this area once all the construction is done.

@ Whipjacka. This is the closest thing to insider information we've had on this project!

As mentioned above I think $85 million is too much to spend to not do anything with the land. I think the second phase will be built and even if its not built, I think a hotel, or restaurants and retail would be built there given the attractiveness of this area once all the construction is done.

 

My vote is that it becomes mainly parking--and lots of it! 

My vote is the part of phase 2 that is a go is construction of a parking deck on the land with an underground link to the Higbee basement.  They'll have the ability to construct the full casino above that in 5 years or so, similar to 515 Euclid.

^That's exactly what I think will happen.  Casino revenue won't meet projections and they'll indefinitely shelve phase II with the exception of the parking garage.

Ugh...  How many times do we have to rehash this "I don't think Phase 2 will ever be built" drivel?  Your opinions are just that - opinions - based on nothing except your gut with nothing to back it up.  There have been no creditable sources that have given any reason as to why Phase 2 wouldn't be built.  In fact, it's been quite the opposite.  Your speculations are based on assumptions of a business plan you know nothing about.  So unless you have some legit proof or inside source saying why Phase 2 wouldn't be built, just shut up about it already.

 

I think the Medical Mart isn't going to be filled and they're going to stop the East Bank project at 5 stories and Jacobs is just going to tear down the Powerhouse and make it into a duck pond and blah, blah, blah.  Geez.  Children.

^That's exactly what I think will happen.  Casino revenue won't meet projections and they'll indefinitely shelve phase II with the exception of the parking garage.

 

There's no doubt that revenue wont meet projections, but I dont see Gilbert as settling for just the Higbee building either.  I think he is certainly of the thought, the bigger the better and the more people it will attract (He certainly has an ego to feed, he will want to be king of the mountain)

My vote is that I will know exactly what will happen -- after it happens.

 

I never rely on anyone who tells me what will happen in the future unless they've already been there....

Ugh...  How many times do we have to rehash this "I don't think Phase 2 will ever be built" drivel?  Your opinions are just that - opinions - based on nothing except your gut with nothing to back it up.  There have been no creditable sources that have given any reason as to why Phase 2 wouldn't be built.  In fact, it's been quite the opposite.  Your speculations are based on assumptions of a business plan you know nothing about.  So unless you have some legit proof or inside source saying why Phase 2 wouldn't be built, just shut up about it already.

 

I think the Medical Mart isn't going to be filled and they're going to stop the East Bank project at 5 stories and Jacobs is just going to tear down the Powerhouse and make it into a duck pond and blah, blah, blah.  Geez.  Children.

 

I'm not a child so don't label me as such and I will not shut up about just an OPINION!  True I don't have true knowledge of the business plan and I am not saying it is a FACT that they will not build phase 2.  Maybe I'll call it a theory.  Never have I once said it will not be built.  I believe it will eventually.

What indication do we have that says there will not be a 2nd phase?  They bought the land for $85M, did I miss something??

Before we let the speculation ruin a couple pages of this thread, let me offer this piece recently written by Malcolm Gladwell on NJ (soon to be Brooklyn) Nets and NBA economics.  I believe it applies b/c at the end of the day, it's a real estate investment and like the former owner of the Nets, I doubt Dan Gilbert won't get a return on his investment, whether that's Phase II of a casino or something else.  That and the obvious basketball owners similarities (and old Dan is mentioned in the article).

 

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7021031/the-nets-nba-economics