February 17, 201213 yr The advantage I see to a casino downtown over a sports venue, although I favor both, is that the Casino is open on a daily/nightly basis. As we have discussed in other threads, CBS is basically only open for use 8 times a year. The Jake draws a crowd on 81 nights. The Gund is used a bit more, but not that much more than the 41 games scheduled. The Casino won't be so much of a seasonal venue that pretty much sits empty for most of the year. It will draw people downtown on a more regular basis and, arguably, as less of a single destination. I don't think that anyone at City Hall is surprised about the eagerness of developers to capitalize on parking demands, just as they are trying to capitalize on hotel and other net positive demands. They don't view one negative (if you would call it that) in a vacuum. They will look at the bigger picture and long-term potnetial for spin off. At the very least, we can be grateful that no one has proposed created a surface lot for this casino. Structured parking, if done right, is hardly the end of the world. You are never going to force people to use public transportation. That is quite simply a pipe dream. The only way that happens is if downtown becomes so popular that the price to park reaches Chicago levels and taking public transportation makes sense financially. I am a big supporter of public transportation, but frankly, when I use it to get downtown with the family, I break even at best and add time to my trip. I still use it, but I usually do so to just be supportive.
February 17, 201213 yr Author I noticed in this article (and attached video) http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/new-casino-could-attract-more-shopping-and-other-businesses-to-downtown-cleveland that "a hotel will be built at 21 Prospect Ave". What hotel are they referring to?
February 17, 201213 yr I noticed in this article (and attached video) http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/new-casino-could-attract-more-shopping-and-other-businesses-to-downtown-cleveland that "a hotel will be built at 21 Prospect Ave". What hotel are they referring to? From just above: Whats with Newsnet5.... They were also reporting the Kimpton Hotel nearly 2 weeks after it was reported everywhere else as if it was breaking news, after incorrectly reporting this as being on Prospect and the Tilted Kilt at Euclid and E. 9th...... This was also covered in 2 other threads. Somebody at Newsnet5 is obviously drinking something funny...
February 17, 201213 yr Is there any external signage yet for the casino? They have window signs on the PS side, but nothing along the lines of what they were approved to put up yet. On that note though there was someone this morning working on the flag pole holders along Ontario. Could have been electrical for the lighting though. Hopefully there will be some more external activity soon. May 14th is a lot closer than you think.
February 17, 201213 yr At the very least, we can be grateful that no one has proposed created a surface lot for this casino. Structured parking, if done right, is hardly the end of the world. You are never going to force people to use public transportation. That is quite simply a pipe dream. I can't let that slide. I don't want to force anyone to do anything, including drive. But how you design your built environment causes some people to make different modal decisions. Just as the automakers and oil companies recognized in the early part of the 20th century that decreased urban density increases the likelihood of greater auto use and sales, we recognize in the early 21st century that the inverse prove true too. Problem is, too many developers (like the suburban shopping mall developers Gilbert has hired) don't understand that people will make different modal decisions to reach their real estate investments depending on how they are design. If they design their attraction for non-automobile access, people will use non-automobile modes to access them. EDIT: let me just summarize that by not offering a more extensive, truly regional public transportation system we are forcing many people to drive downtown and we are having to demolish or otherwise damage what I enjoy most about a city -- its density, mixed uses, vibrancy, intimacy and pedestrian energy. I don't entirely blame the casino developers for this, but I reiterate what Dan Gilbert is doing in Detroit for light-rail. I wish he would push for higher quality rail transit to collector points farther out. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 17, 201213 yr When the casino was asking Ohio voters to approve their constitutional amendment to open a casino they said they wiuld weave it into the existing fabric of downtown. That was a lie. They had already purchased the Columbia with the intent to tear it down for parking. They wanted to buy the Stanley Block too, for the same reason. They couldn'y buy it, but their friends in city hall will knock it down for them. If their promise was not a lie, I would be a supporter of Rock Gaming.
February 17, 201213 yr "weave it into the existing fabric of downtown." (source?) How is this NOT weaving? Its all rather subjective at best
February 17, 201213 yr Exactly Musky..... and we have one extreme end of the sprectrum STRONGLY represented on this board. Not that I don't sympathize with those viewpoints and understand the argument, I just suppose I tend to look at things from a different perspective. As I've said before, Gilbert will never be forgiven here for the Columbia building and, no matter what anyone wants to claim, it has really tainted the discussions here about this casino to stray away from any level of objectiveness. Now, certain members are looking for a reason.... ANY reason.... to be critical.
February 17, 201213 yr When the United States, as a whole, is ever 20% of the public-transportation-focused society that Europe is, by necessity, perhaps those wanting to plan around public transport in Cleveland have a point. But, just like soccer, public transportation in the USA isn't ingrained in society like it is in Europe - and won't likely be anytime soon, no matter how hard some try. Yes, there are still busy east coast pockets - and now progressive west coast systems - but those of us in St. Louis or CLE or Omaha in the age of the care are simply not going to be converts back to buses and rail until the whole attitude towards rail and buses, etc.. changes in this country. It's not a Cleveland aversion to public transportation - or an evil "suburban developer" issue - it's a total average American indifference to public transportation - or fear of it - fostered over decades. No one's being forced to drive to downtown CLE - that's just what you do, isn't it? With that said, nothing I love more than riding the Underground in London, Metro in Paris - but seriously...
February 17, 201213 yr Did the city force the developers to at least include ground-level retail on these structures? That would have been a nice compromise for building the new parking structures.
February 17, 201213 yr ^Exactly what I mean by 'if done right'. A parking structure can be a horrible hulk of darkness or it can create a lively block full of activity. It's all in how it is planned. I was just in one of those 'new south' cities and the liveliest little joint in downtown was on the ground floor of a parking structure.
February 17, 201213 yr ^ Well whoever planned the garage that houses..used to house Fat Fish Blue got it right in planning for a ground floor use. https://www.instagram.com/cle_and_beyond/https://www.instagram.com/jbkaufer/
February 17, 201213 yr When the United States, as a whole, is ever 20% of the public-transportation-focused society that Europe is, by necessity, perhaps those wanting to plan around public transport in Cleveland have a point. But, just like soccer, public transportation in the USA isn't ingrained in society like it is in Europe - and won't likely be anytime soon, no matter how hard some try. Yes, there are still busy east coast pockets - and now progressive west coast systems - but those of us in St. Louis or CLE or Omaha in the age of the care are simply not going to be converts back to buses and rail until the whole attitude towards rail and buses, etc.. changes in this country. It's not a Cleveland aversion to public transportation - or an evil "suburban developer" issue - it's a total average American indifference to public transportation - or fear of it - fostered over decades. No one's being forced to drive to downtown CLE - that's just what you do, isn't it? With that said, nothing I love more than riding the Underground in London, Metro in Paris - but seriously... U.S. and European cities were more similar 100 years ago in terms of their density and transit use. And this issue is much more complex than "it just happened" -- read and post additional commentary in some of these threads so we can get back to the casino project and its impacts on downtown (sorry for my own rant-laden contributions that got us off track)....... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,10253.0.html http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14860.0.html http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2726.0.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 18, 201213 yr I usually wait to read this thread because it is the most entertaining to me. It's a place where the normally well thought out poster comes off the track. It's Cleveland. Com without the logic. Drama at It's finest. Where "I told you so" becomes the chanted mantra. With that said I would like to prepare everyone with the almost certain take down of the Stanley building. In my opinion it is very obvious the owner is looking for a pay day and Gilbert is the ATM. When a building is being held together with cables thru 40 years of neglect and no investmant from the owner it becomes a money pit. And no one is going to invest in it with out any possible ROI. So what's Gilbert to do unless he covers the front of it with a Fathead of Z. He is destined to become the bad guy once again and it's starts all over. I can't wait
February 18, 201213 yr ^If that was the case why didn't the Maloff's agree to sell it last year to Gilbert when they were approached to make it part of the "welcome center" garage and instead fought with their partner in the building (who did want to sell to Gilbert). Don't tell me that they were holding out for more money 'cause Gilbert was throwing around $$$ last year for property like there was no tomorrow.
February 18, 201213 yr The parking lot/driving mentality is more a state of mind than it has anyting to do with local geography. Also, Dan Gilbert is not the cause of this; he merely conveniently fits into the negative paradigm we've established/allowed to fester, re mass transit... Consider the absurdity: we have a new casino about to open in the center of downtown that sits on top of our central rail rapid transit hub (and main terminal for the HL out on Public Sq.) and yet, I have yet to see ONE WORD in any PD/Criain's/Scene, etc. about the viability of casino goers using mass transit (not even from Steve Litt, who I really respect)... It's parallel to the post about Hopkins Airport having poor signage for the Rapid which, you'd think, they'd be proud of (hell, until people made a stink a couple years ago, Hopkins visitor's touch-screen guide for Ground Transportation didn't even mention the Rapid... huh!? ... Kinda like the way FCE is silent about mass transit even though the rail hub empties into the lower level of their mall (we know, of course, if Miller/Ratner could wave a magic wand and make the Tower City Rapid station disappear, they would in a heartbeat ... and we know why...) Fact is guys, we don't want to face what Blinker mentioned in his new book about Cleveland: for many people here (too many), mass transit, notably the Rapid, is seen as primarily a tool of the poor and minorities, those dreaded reprobates. Our pols have noted this for years so that, for them, transit issues are a political loser in this town (more on this later under mass transit). Add to this mix the 'Beggars Can't be Choosy" inferiority complex our local leaders suffer from, and in walks wealthy/aggressive Dan Gilbert from out of town with a blank slate on which to operate on: No pol, from Frank Jackson, Ed Fitzgerald or Joe Cimpermann on down is going to speak nary a peep of discord to Gilbert for fear he either scale down is development or, at worst, leave (not likely, but still a fear I believe in the gut of many pols here). So it seems that Gilbert is getting away with a heavy-handed approach to historic preservation (... dare I say, cavalier) that he wouldn't dream of in his hometown, even though Cleveland, obviously, has a much more healthy, mass-transit oriented downtown than does Detroit.
February 18, 201213 yr And with that, it's time to get back on the topic of the casino's construction. Thanks. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
February 18, 201213 yr Buffet, Corky & Lenny's and The B Spot are the current confirmed tenants. Its not official but I know Rocco Whalen has had some discussions about opening a place in there. This post was the first I heard about B Spot. Newsnet5 is calling it "Breaking news" right now: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/chef-michael-symon-bringing-his-b-spot-restaurant-to-horseshoe-casino-clevelands-food-court I have some good sources :) In their defense, Horseshoe didn't officially announce it until yesterday in a press release. The PD and other media outlets ran the same story.
February 21, 201213 yr "Tour shows construction progress inside new Cleveland Horseshoe Casino (Feb. 21, 2012)" http://www.newsnet5.com/gallery/news/news_photo_gallery/tour-shows-construction-progress-inside-new-cleveland-horseshoe-casino-feb-21-2012#ixzz1n2Dl3Ej4 I wonder if Crayola ever considered making a crayon color called Cleveland brown
February 21, 201213 yr Author Buffet, Corky & Lenny's and The B Spot are the current confirmed tenants. Its not official but I know Rocco Whalen has had some discussions about opening a place in there. This post was the first I heard about B Spot. Newsnet5 is calling it "Breaking news" right now: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/chef-michael-symon-bringing-his-b-spot-restaurant-to-horseshoe-casino-clevelands-food-court I have some good sources :) In their defense, Horseshoe didn't officially announce it until yesterday in a press release. The PD and other media outlets ran the same story. That's fair. I just wanted to make sure you got the credit for posting something here before it was in "mainstream media", mwd711. Please share other tidbits from your sources in the future!
February 21, 201213 yr "Tour shows construction progress inside new Cleveland Horseshoe Casino (Feb. 21, 2012)" http://www.newsnet5.com/gallery/news/news_photo_gallery/tour-shows-construction-progress-inside-new-cleveland-horseshoe-casino-feb-21-2012#ixzz1n2Dl3Ej4 I wonder if Crayola ever considered making a crayon color called Cleveland brown Looks good! Is it too late to scrap the casino and make it a department store again??? Just kidding... Inside looks nice actually, I like the historical touches that remain
February 21, 201213 yr I am extremely glad that the western theme is toned down, dare I even say tasteful. If you've ever been to Sizzler, you know this could've turned out really bad! Agree with Mr. Clifton from what I can tell they're doing a good job preserving the character of the building.
February 21, 201213 yr ^Yeah, I agree re. the western theme. I know nothing about the gambling industry, but that theme always sounded like a weird fit. You'd think an Art Deco/roaring 20s theme would be appealing generally for urban sites, not just for this one, but I guess it didn't fit in their existing brand structure. Oh well, the photos look pretty darn good. I'm getting really eager and curious now to see how much/if the activity generated here changes the feel of downtown streets on an ongoing basis.
February 21, 201213 yr Speaking of Cleveland's downtown streets ... does anyone know if Ontario St. between Public Square and W. Huron / the Q will eventually be repaired or resurfaced?? It's been a month or so since I was down in that area, but last time I was there the road was pretty bad. I could see waiting to do any street work until construction is completed in the area. But I would think that the city would want a nice smooth pothole free street in the area that will hopefully have lots and lots of out of town people coming into it every day??
February 21, 201213 yr I am extremely glad that the western theme is toned down, dare I even say tasteful. If you've ever been to Sizzler, you know this could've turned out really bad! Agree with Mr. Clifton from what I can tell they're doing a good job preserving the character of the building. I think a lot of people based on the brand name expected something out of the wild west without thinking, visitin or looking at pictures of other horseshoe properties.
February 21, 201213 yr ^I'm totally guilty of that. I think it's the ick from Cadiallac Ranch rubbing off on all things with western names. Seriously though, it's going to be funny seeing so many Clevelanders wondering through the casino just to see what the old Higbees space looks like. I know casinos often draw the curious, but this should be a whole new level of that.
February 21, 201213 yr Well that'll be me...! Ive only lived here for 4 years so I never experienced Higbees nor have I even set foot in the building. I'm so excited just to SEE IT!
February 21, 201213 yr Well that'll be me...! Ive only lived here for 4 years so I never experienced Higbees nor have I even set foot in the building. I'm so excited just to SEE IT! ^I'm totally guilty of that. I think it's the ick from Cadiallac Ranch rubbing off on all things with western names. Seriously though, it's going to be funny seeing so many Clevelanders wondering through the casino just to see what the old Higbees space looks like. I know casinos often draw the curious, but this should be a whole new level of that. For me, it's going to be painful. I was devastated when Higbee's closed and to now see a grand space with lots of great memories turned into a Casino is bittersweet. I know having the Casino is better than having a vacant world class retail space, but for someone like me it stings.
February 21, 201213 yr ^Oh, for sure, it will sting for me too. But better than a parking deck :) And better than seeing all the details simply ripped out. Really a bummer they couldn't keep the escalators though. Random question: are casinos like this a frequent destination of charter/tour buses? Any thoughts how they'll be accommodated? I think a fair number make it to Tribe/Cavs games, so this is not a "world is ending" lament, just wondering if anyone has a sense whether they'll be stacked up on Prospect or idling in some remote lot somewhere.
February 21, 201213 yr ^Oh, for sure, it will sting for me too. But better than a parking deck :) And better than seeing all the details simply ripped out. Really a bummer they couldn't keep the escalators though. Random question: are casinos like this a frequent destination of charter/tour buses? Any thoughts how they'll be accommodated? I think a fair number make it to Tribe/Cavs games, so this is not a "world is ending" lament, just wondering if anyone has a sense whether they'll be stacked up on Prospect or idling in some remote lot somewhere. Their not getting rid of the escalators
February 22, 201213 yr ^I mean the old wooden ones specifically. Are they keeping those? As of December, this Cleveland.com piece said they were gone: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12/lots_to_be_done_at_higbee_befo.html
February 22, 201213 yr Small fire in Cleveland casino clears out workers, does little damage CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A small, smoky fire forced workers to leave the first floor of the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland Tuesday, a fire official said. A worker was welding part of the floor system about 5 p.m. when a spark dropped into the basement of the former Higbee's department store on Public Square, said Assistant Chief David McNeilly. The spark ignited a box holding pipe insulation, said McNeilly and casino spokeswoman Jennifer Kulczycki. http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/02/post_564.html
February 22, 201213 yr ^Oh, for sure, it will sting for me too. But better than a parking deck :) And better than seeing all the details simply ripped out. Really a bummer they couldn't keep the escalators though. Random question: are casinos like this a frequent destination of charter/tour buses? Any thoughts how they'll be accommodated? I think a fair number make it to Tribe/Cavs games, so this is not a "world is ending" lament, just wondering if anyone has a sense whether they'll be stacked up on Prospect or idling in some remote lot somewhere. They expect 6 buses a day [so they said at the May 20th planning commission meeting] and the buses will be lined up on Prospect :/ [south side of street, next to welcome center]. Not sure if the buses will remain there the entire time or just drop off . Anecdotally, I see advertisements for day trips to windsor and erie all the time in PeeDee.
February 22, 201213 yr Cleveland Horseshoe Casino to get slot machines as soon as next week CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Slot machines will be wheeled into the new Horseshoe Casino in the old Higbee Building as early as Monday in anticipation of the May 14 grand opening. Once the machines come in on the street level of the casino on Public Square, they will be under constant surveillance by the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation, the agency charged with preventing tampering of the machines. Marcus Glover, general manager of the casino being developed by Rock Gaming LLC and Caesars Entertainment Inc., said today he is amazed at the speed of the project. "You come in after one week and you're amazed at how much progress has taken place," he said. The carpet is laid on the street-level floor, much of the painting and carpentry work is finished and the bases are in place for 700 slot machines. Many of the original features of the old Higbee Building remain, including the pillars, wood and ornamental brass work. Glover said there are still jobs available at the casino, which will employ 1,600 people, 90 percent from the metropolitan Cleveland area. The first floor of the casino, which is one level below the street, will have a 400-seat buffet restaurant. The third level will have three restaurants, including Corky and Lenny's and Michael Symon's B Spot restaurant. The third restaurant has yet to be named. Glover said the buffet will not conflict with other restaurants in the area. "We were very careful not to cannibalize the restaurants or entertainment establishments downtown," he said, noting that many other casinos try to keep customers from leaving by offering food and entertainment. "There is no buffet restaurant around here, so we believe it will not hurt restaurants," he said. "We will deliberately not feature entertainment since there are so many choices within walking distance. We want the casino to be part of the Cleveland experience." http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/02/slot_machines_coming_to_horses.html#incart_hbx
February 22, 201213 yr For me, it's going to be painful. I was devastated when Higbee's closed and to now see a grand space with lots of great memories turned into a Casino is bittersweet. I know having the Casino is better than having a vacant world class retail space, but for someone like me it stings. Me too. For those of us in the 40s-and-older crowd, we're in the same boat on this. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 201213 yr ^Well it'll be exciting for me in the mid 30's range to experience the space for the first time. The only views I've had are from the Christmas Story movie. Unless that was staged and not really filmed in Higbee. https://www.instagram.com/cle_and_beyond/https://www.instagram.com/jbkaufer/
February 22, 201213 yr ^Well it'll be exciting for me in the mid 30's range to experience the space for the first time. The only views I've had are from the Christmas Story movie. Unless that was staged and not really filmed in Higbee. It was in Higbees. I and all my cousins went down that slide after we sat on Santas Lap. and the elves were wicked evil little people! If you didn't leave Santas lap fast enough, they would be "kind" enough to escort you.
February 26, 201213 yr Talked to a Security Guard yesterday that said Management told them that the Casino is working hard to move its opening day to March 17th (St.Patrick's Day) I guess to capitalize on the major influx of people that will be downtown. I'm not sure if only the slots will be up or the full Casino will be done but that's what management is telling employees in Tower City as a way to prepare them for the MAJOR amount of people that will be down there.
February 26, 201213 yr That's so odd. The casino, at least in its opening night, is going to draw in an insane number of people in its own right. Why commingle the two
February 26, 201213 yr Yeah, they may want to have the Public Square level buttoned up so that people enjoying St. Patrick's day can take a peak and create a little buzz about the casino, but there's no way they'd open 2 months early. Not with all the work that needs to be done by the regulating agency.
February 26, 201213 yr That's so odd. The casino, at least in its opening night, is going to draw in an insane number of people in its own right. Why commingle the two Agreed. Why play second fiddle to a beer-fest at your grand opening? Also, the potential exists for things to go horribly awry, considering how wasted everyone gets. There were fights right in front of that place last year.
February 27, 201213 yr That's so odd. The casino, at least in its opening night, is going to draw in an insane number of people in its own right. Why commingle the two Maybe they will just have the floor with the slots open or are slots not allowed to be operating yet? Or maybe they may want to capitalize on the large crowd and give a sneak peek to create a buzz like someone said because people from all over will be downtown not just people from downtown and also there will be people who won't be drunk and will behave themselves like me and they may want to see it.....so basically I believe all it is really is a marketing ploy to get their casinos name out there faster than penn national.
February 27, 201213 yr press release Feb. 24, 2012, 8:00 a.m. EST Forest City Receives Final Payment in Cleveland Casino Land and Air Rights Sale CLEVELAND, Feb. 24, 2012 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Forest City Enterprises, Inc. today announced that it has received the final cash installment payment of $34 million related to its previously announced $85 million land and air rights sale to Rock Ohio Caesars Cleveland LLC, for development of a casino in downtown Cleveland. The company expects to recognize a gain on the sale of the land and air rights of approximately $36.4 million, which will be reflected in EBDT results for the fiscal first quarter ending April 30, 2012. The transaction involved approximately 16 acres of land and related air rights adjacent to Forest City's Tower City Center mixed-use complex. The company received $11 million in cash at closing and additional installment payments totaling approximately $40 million during 2011. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/forest-city-receives-final-payment-in-cleveland-casino-land-and-air-rights-sale-2012-02-24
February 27, 201213 yr ^Well, I guess this completely puts to rest any fears that Gilbert was planning to stand pat after the Horseshoe-Higbee's rennovation and not move forward with Phase II. Knowing Gilbert as we do, that fear was not based in reality.
February 29, 201213 yr Cleveland plans to hire downtown cleaning crew to work near Horseshoe Casino Cleveland plans to hire temporary workers to keep downtown clean for patrons of the new casino. Mayor Frank Jackson wants to hire employees for six months at a time, starting around the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland's May 14 opening. His proposed 2012 budget includes about $480,000 to pay wages and benefits to a total of 34 "real estate maintenance workers" and a manager. The cost is estimated at $844,000 for 2013, the casino's first full year of operation. The temporary crews would concentrate on the casino's Public Square base as well as other city property in an area stretching from East 9th Street to West 9th Street and from the lakefront to Carnegie Avenue. Duties would include power-washing pavement, removing graffiti, emptying trash cans and clearing snow. Shifts would combine for round-the-clock coverage, mirroring the casino's 24-hour schedule. http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/02/cleveland_plans_to_hire_downto.html
February 29, 201213 yr What a strange (and poor way) to frame this effort. E. 9th to W. 9th from Carnegie to Lakeside is a lot more than just "near Horseshoe Casino". Headline makes it read like this is only intended to help the casino, when it will benefit all of the central downtown area. This is a welcome effort since the DCA people were sort of banned from cleaning public areas. And good on Cleveland for reinvesting some of the income from the casino into beautifying and maintaining the area around it.
February 29, 201213 yr This is a welcome effort since the DCA people were sort of banned from cleaning public areas. Just curious--why were they banned?
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