November 8, 200915 yr Clvlndr....yours and similar posts are right on. Crybaby business owners that scream about having too much competition are companies that are mostly likely putting out sub par product and are just afraid of better companies coming in and putting them out of business and THAT IS A GOOD THING! Any well run restaurant, or other service type of establishment, should welcome the synergy and masses that the Casino will create. Competition will force them to be better or get out which is good for Clevelanders. With all the new big projects being built in downtown alone Cleveland will need the new restaurants to fill the demand which will have a huge ripple effect. I am more excited about this ripple effect than the Casino since I could give a rat's ass about gambling. I would spend more time downtown for the food, hotel, retail and entertainment options it could bring. Protecting a few establishments is the absolute wrong way to go. On a side note I am typically leery of some "Out of Town" entrepreneurs like Gilbert but having closely watched what he has to say I think he has some heart for Cleveland and I think he can be trusted to do the right thing.
November 8, 200915 yr There is no way Gilbert is doing this out of some sort of altruistic nature or inherent love of Cleveland. Plain and simple, he stands to make a ton of money.
November 8, 200915 yr I haven't heard any business owners who are worried about fair competition. What I have heard is worry that Downtown restaurants/concert clubs will now have to compete against restaurants and clubs that could be run at a loss because their operations are subsidized by very lucrative gambling operations. Maybe that won't happen, but where's the guarantee, folks? It goes back to the gorilla metaphor- maybe he plays nice, but if he doesn't, your f-cked. End of story. But when it's not your livelihood on the line, I suppose you can be blase.
November 8, 200915 yr Flee2theCleve... no one said he doesn't stand to make a lot of money. I hope he does. I mean did anyone think differently? He's a business person and that's usually the objective. I just said he comes across as somewhat different and not just someone who wants to steam roll in with a Casino and rape the city of billions. I could be totally wrong, I can't see into this Man's soul. He just seems like he really wants Cleveland to get something out of this which really positively impacts both his business ventures and Cleveland. And X there is never a guanantee..why you would even say that. I spent a lot of time in Vegas and the restaurants outside of the casinos were growing and doing awesome, just one example.
November 8, 200915 yr And X there is never a guanantee..why you would even say that. I'm not sure what you're saying here?
November 9, 200915 yr Who cares if he's an out of town business person or not. The question is if a business owner is an absentee owner or asleep at the wheel. Flee, to bring your statement to full circle, why aren't you upset at the Lerner family??
November 9, 200915 yr Maybe this has been said before, and if so I apologize, but it seems to me that restaurants in a casino are competing for the new business that a casino would draw, not necessarily existing restaurant business. If I'm from out of town and coming to Cleveland to gamble, I may very well just stay in the casino, because I'm not familiar with the city, afraid I might get lost, don't want to lose precious gambling time, etc. If I'm someone coming to Cleveland to eat, unless the casino restaurant is something special, I'm not going to gravitate there. I'll just go to where I would have gone anyway. The trick for existing restaurants isn't necessarily how to keep existing customers, it's going to be coming up with a compelling reason to get the casino customers to venture outside and visit their establishment. So yes, you're competing, for new business. That's a good thing, right?
November 9, 200915 yr I think the "competition" that needs to be worrying about this Casino are the restaurants on the far edges of Cuyahoga County and out into Lake, Summit, Medina, Lorain, etc. Its been said before here, but I think we need to remember there is a massive volume of people who live in Cuyahoga County that never come downtown, except for the occassional sports game. These are the people who take regular weekend trips to out of state Casinos, and I think these will be the majority of this Casino's regular business.
November 9, 200915 yr The casino works because of the convention center. Otherwise, it would divert entertainment dollars. I have heard that the Cleveland casino would be built for $600MM, I also heard that the four casinos in the state would be built for $1Billion. Where can I find hard data on the budgets for these places?
November 9, 200915 yr The only thing for sure right now is that they are required to spend at least $250m / casino, via the constitutional amendment. They can spend as much over that as they wish (obviously shown by Gilbert stating he plans to spend $5-600m in Cleveland)
November 9, 200915 yr The numbers I have heard are that Gilbert will spend $600 million on the Cleveland casino and $450 million on the Cincy casino. Penn National, which holds the licenses for the other two, will split $600 million in construction costs between Toledo and C-Bus. These were all campaign promises, if you will, so take it FWIW. McCleveland is correct that the amendment requires an minimal investment of $250 per casino so that is where you might be getting the $1 billion figure from ($250 mill x 4 for those of you who actually look at "the diff" on the scoreboard at the Q).
November 9, 200915 yr Also, the casino restaurants would be competition if the casino itself didn't bring in people who wouldn't have been there anyways. More people in an area means the more stores and restaurants an area can support without people losing money.
November 9, 200915 yr I must say, it warms the cockles of my libertarian heart to read all these left-leaning forumers chomping at the bit to argue for the merits of competition in downtown business. My heart soars with the eagle's nest. But you guys are right on, for the most part. The downtown location means that any super-cheap food offerings would be exploited by downtown employees on lunch breaks. It's not in the casino's interests to drive local restaurants out of business.
November 9, 200915 yr ^deeply discounted food and drink would also bring in the dregs that don't have much money to gamble anyway... who would also help keep the types of people they want wasting their money away. I highly doubt they will go that direction.
November 9, 200915 yr ($250 mill x 4 for those of you who actually look at "the diff" on the scoreboard at the Q). :laugh:
November 10, 200915 yr Seems we still have folks concerned over deeply discounted food and drink and how it could be a detriment to local established eateries. Let me say that living in Vegas does not make me an expert in casino management however I do have Friends in the business. One example is my neighbor, currently with Balley's Gaming Tech and a former Harrah's operations manager (on a side note he recently traveled to Lawrenceburg, as Penn National is a client of his and Balley's should have about 20% market share of the Ohio casino's). Here's how it work: In Vegas about 50% of the restaraunts in the casino's are operated privately and pay rent and those rents get pricey. They obviously must operate for profit which is why the food and drink is NOT cheap. The other 50% (and this ratio does vary greatly between properties) are operated in house and must show a profit (BTW Penn National is nearly 100% in house operated FOR PROFIT) or the place will be reinvented as if new ownership has come in. The only exceptions are the buffets. Though they are designed to make money they are also used to feed employees in back of house cafeteria's where employees can eat free. Depending on how many employees take advantage can affect the bottom line. Drinks at the bars are money makers just as they are anywhere, and the drinks in the clubs or lounges are BIG money makers. The only "free" drinks are given to GAMBLING patrons and they are small pours. If you're sitting at a machine don't expect a refill every 5 minutes they don't flood the floor with waitresses. By the time she comes back with your free drink you've put another $10 in the machine Some have suggested that Ohio law prohibits free alcohol anyway. Food and drink inducements were used to lure folks from one property to another but that's been over for some time and the Ohio casino's will not have competition across the street. I would be happy to forward any questions to my neighbor and we can separate reality from myth. He will likely have some interesting facts and figures as things progress as again they anticipate over 20% market share for all the new Ohio properties.
November 10, 200915 yr Vegas is not a good example, there are many cities that have put in one or two casinos or a riverboat. Those would be better models to learn from
November 10, 200915 yr The casino works because of the convention center. Otherwise, it would divert entertainment dollars. What does that mean? Is that a bad thing? Did the R&R HoF divert entertainment dollars? Did the Browns coming back divert dollars? Would your bar one day divert dollars? The convention center has nothing to do with whether a casino works. It is just another form of entertainment.
November 10, 200915 yr Vegas is not a good example, there are many cities that have put in one or two casinos or a riverboat. Those would be better models to learn from HOW? I don't understand, considering our casinos are on land and in the heart of each CBD. Please help me to understand.
November 10, 200915 yr The casino works because of the convention center. Otherwise, it would divert entertainment dollars. What does that mean? Is that a bad thing? Did the R&R HoF divert entertainment dollars? Did the Browns coming back divert dollars? Would your bar one day divert dollars? The convention center has nothing to do with whether a casino works. It is just another form of entertainment. A venue that acts as a net attractor of visitors from outside the region who would not normally visit Cleveland and spend money is more valuable than a venue that would compete with other local establishments for the same local dollars. The same argument could be made that venues that retain folks from the region who would normally leave to visit (and spend their money in) other areas has the same value as a net attractor. In the case of a casino, insofar as it works to either bring in folks to Cleveland who would not normally visit the area (to go to the R&R HOF or a sports event or Lola) or retain folks from the area who will spend a certain amount of money on gambling, no matter where the casino is, then it is a good thing (independent of other factors, naturally). But, if it keeps Joe Ghoulardi from The R&R HoF may have diverted local entertainment dollars in its first few years of operation, but I think that you would be hard-pressed to find out of a random 10 visitors to the HoF more than one local person. The Browns coming back did divert local dollars, as evidenced by the drop in the Indians and Cavs attendance post-1999. I think that the argument punch is making is that a convention center makes it more likely that a higher percentage of casino visitors will come from outside of the region. I think that this is a reasonable argument, but one that would require more research (would a convention be more likely to book in Cleveland because there is a casino, or is it from their perspective just another form of entertainment?). Entertainment, broadly speaking, is not a fungible commodity. Vegas is not a good example, there are many cities that have put in one or two casinos or a riverboat. Those would be better models to learn from HOW? I don't understand, considering our casinos are on land and in the heart of each CBD. Please help me to understand. A single casino that is located behind Tower City, despite its location on dry land, has more in common with riverboat casinos than examples from Vegas where there are multiple casinos. Insofar as one would really only be able to access a Cleveland casino from Huron Road and that there is presently little opportunity for further development behind it, it is for all intents and purposes at the edge of the CBD.
November 10, 200915 yr The casino works because of the convention center. Otherwise, it would divert entertainment dollars. What does that mean? Is that a bad thing? Did the R&R HoF divert entertainment dollars? Did the Browns coming back divert dollars? Would your bar one day divert dollars? The convention center has nothing to do with whether a casino works. It is just another form of entertainment. A venue that acts as a net attractor of visitors from outside the region who would not normally visit Cleveland and spend money is more valuable than a venue that would compete with other local establishments for the same local dollars. The same argument could be made that venues that retain folks from the region who would normally leave to visit (and spend their money in) other areas has the same value as a net attractor. In the case of a casino, insofar as it works to either bring in folks to Cleveland who would not normally visit the area (to go to the R&R HOF or a sports event or Lola) or retain folks from the area who will spend a certain amount of money on gambling, no matter where the casino is, then it is a good thing (independent of other factors, naturally). But, if it keeps Joe Ghoulardi from The R&R HoF may have diverted local entertainment dollars in its first few years of operation, but I think that you would be hard-pressed to find out of a random 10 visitors to the HoF more than one local person. The Browns coming back did divert local dollars, as evidenced by the drop in the Indians and Cavs attendance post-1999. I think that the argument punch is making is that a convention center makes it more likely that a higher percentage of casino visitors will come from outside of the region. I think that this is a reasonable argument, but one that would require more research (would a convention be more likely to book in Cleveland because there is a casino, or is it from their perspective just another form of entertainment?). Entertainment, broadly speaking, is not a fungible commodity. Vegas is not a good example, there are many cities that have put in one or two casinos or a riverboat. Those would be better models to learn from HOW? I don't understand, considering our casinos are on land and in the heart of each CBD. Please help me to understand. A single casino that is located behind Tower City, despite its location on dry land, has more in common with riverboat casinos than examples from Vegas where there are multiple casinos. Insofar as one would really only be able to access a Cleveland casino from Huron Road and that there is presently little opportunity for further development behind it, it is for all intents and purposes at the edge of the CBD. This is why we i stated earlier Lost Wages or Re-No should not be used as an examples, but NoLa, Tunica or Ft. Lauderdale
November 10, 200915 yr Detroit's casinos are probably the best comparison, and even then its not perfect because there are 3 competing ones and Cleveland will only have one. I've been to MGM Grand twice and Greektown once, haven't been to MororCity. MGM is definitely fancier, and since Gilbert is planning on spending $600mill, might be the best comparison: The restaurants aren't cheap. At MGM there looked to be 3 higher-end restaurants, including a Wolfgang Puck, as well as a food court and a buffet. I ate at the food court. It was fine, nothing special. The fast food Chinese I had was better than what you'd get at Panda Express, but it cost about twice as much. So I would say there definitely isn't a loss leader for food there. Drinks are not free. Michigan, like Ohio can't give away alcohol. Prices, at the tables or at the casino bars, were about the same as what you'd pay on W6th. $4-5 for a bud light, $8 for a jack and coke. I didn't go into any of the clubs or lounges, but I'd imagine the drinks were pretty pricey. Greektown is definitely a little on the cheaper side, but I know the drink prices were about the same. I've never eaten in the casino, but from looking online it looks like their restaurants are priced similarly to comparable outside-the-casino restaurants.
November 10, 200915 yr Detroit's casinos are probably the best comparison, and even then its not perfect because there are 3 competing ones and Cleveland will only have one. I've been to MGM Grand twice and Greektown once, haven't been to MororCity. MGM is definitely fancier, and since Gilbert is planning on spending $600mill, might be the best comparison: The restaurants aren't cheap. At MGM there looked to be 3 higher-end restaurants, including a Wolfgang Puck, as well as a food court and a buffet. I ate at the food court. It was fine, nothing special. The fast food Chinese I had was better than what you'd get at Panda Express, but it cost about twice as much. So I would say there definitely isn't a loss leader for food there. Drinks are not free. Michigan, like Ohio can't give away alcohol. Prices, at the tables or at the casino bars, were about the same as what you'd pay on W6th. $4-5 for a bud light, $8 for a jack and coke. I didn't go into any of the clubs or lounges, but I'd imagine the drinks were pretty pricey. Greektown is definitely a little on the cheaper side, but I know the drink prices were about the same. I've never eaten in the casino, but from looking online it looks like their restaurants are priced similarly to comparable outside-the-casino restaurants. Which is why I say NoLa, is the best comparison. They have the FQ on one side of the Casino, the Convention center to the south and the Warehouse district on the other side. Very much like our planned center, with E. 4th and HWD on either side and the convention center to the north.
November 10, 200915 yr NOLA doesn't work because every bar has poker machines. Ive been looking into buying a bar in the quarter, and those machines typically generate as much revenue as food and bev., so in most cases occupancy costs are covered by the electronic gambling machines. (side note, for most bars in the quarter the real rstate is owned by the poker machine companies and bars rent. They need the bars and restaurants to stay open because they make their money on tge machines) they also have bourbon street to draw in the tourists Aurora IL would be interesting to study to see if regional tourism was a net benefit for its downtown or just the casino
November 10, 200915 yr NOLA doesn't work because every bar has poker machines. Ive been looking into buying a bar in the quarter, and those machines typically generate as much revenue as food and bev., so in most cases occupancy costs are covered by the electronic gambling machines. (side note, for most bars in the quarter the real rstate is owned by the poker machine companies and bars rent. They need the bars and restaurants to stay open because they make their money on tge machines) Every bar has poker machines, every?
November 10, 200915 yr I havent been to one without them EDIT: Im pretty sure Ive been to every bar in the quarter, besides some hotel bars, they all have them
November 11, 200915 yr Dan Gilbert was saying during the campaign that he intends to INTEGRATE the casino with Downtown. How? Is that possible with the location behind Tower City and down the hill? The current topography and buildings seem to totally prevent any meaningful integration. I hope I'm wrong.
November 11, 200915 yr It it was built across from the arena at street level, it would integrate well into downtown
November 11, 200915 yr Dan Gilbert was saying during the campaign that he intends to INTEGRATE the casino with Downtown. How? Is that possible with the location behind Tower City and down the hill? The current topography and buildings seem to totally prevent any meaningful integration. I hope I'm wrong. If he builds it in the same manner as Forest City wanted the convention center built (see graphics a few pages back), then it should integrate fairly well. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 10, 201015 yr Anything happening here? Anyone know the process/time line this has to go through?
January 10, 201015 yr I'm surprised we've heard so little about the casino. I thought construction was supposed to start as soon as possible, which I would imagine would be after everything thaws in the spring.
January 10, 201015 yr The state of Ohio has to finish "writing the rules" so to speak, which I believe was to take about 6 months... I would think this would be giving Gilbert the time to work on his plans. Actually I wonder if that is why the Huron Rd ramp to the TC parking area was closed this week...
January 11, 201015 yr The state of Ohio has to finish "writing the rules" so to speak, which I believe was to take about 6 months... I would think this would be giving Gilbert the time to work on his plans. Actually I wonder if that is why the Huron Rd ramp to the TC parking area was closed this week... I heard on the radio that it was closed for "repairs", but why fix it only to tear it down in a year or so for construction? To expand on the "repairs" I was at TC over the weekend and heard some workers in one of the stores mention that something "fell from the ramp" and that is what led to the closure.
January 12, 201015 yr during the Today show on channel 3...the scroll bar at the bottom of the screen indicated that Gilbert and City were working on opening a temporary casino inside the old Dillard's downtown...i can't find the story online anywhere though...i'm sure it will be up somewhere soon.
January 12, 201015 yr They went the temporary casino route in Windsor too. It's a good way to build up towards the new building, I guess.
January 12, 201015 yr New world record: number of proposed uses for a department store other than "department store." What about the CVB and everything else that's moved or moving into that building? I'd like to see a casino sooner rather than later, so that's still welcome news. I do hope they'll do something about the constant panhandling right in front, though. It's bad enough to have so much of it in front of the CVB, and failing to confront it outside a temporary casino could really bust our bubble tourism-wise.
January 12, 201015 yr consider this a "botique casino"... and there isn't enough room left in that building for a "standard" department store.
January 12, 201015 yr It should be better then the temporary casino's they've put in other cities...Moutnaineer casino still is under some giant bubble device.
February 10, 201015 yr Author The tail end of a story in the Plain Dealer today about the FBI meeting with Gilbert to discuss casino security mentioned that a spokesperson for Gilbert said private discussions about opening a temporary casino "the old Higbee's building has been mentioned as a possible site" are continuing but there's no new developments. Mayor Jackson supports the temporary plan... I just hope a temporary casino does not slow down development of new construction. Plus, I'm sure people will walk into the old casino and say, "This is it?", not knowing it's temporary. I would imagine the entrance to the temp casino would be at Prospect and Ontario because the Public Square side of the old Higbee building is pretty much full, right? Besides the upper floors which might not be as conducive as ground floor access.
February 10, 201015 yr If that is really a concern, Gilbert could have a model of the full-blown $600m casino very visible within the temporary one. Anyone know how much was spent for construction of the MGM in Detroit?
February 10, 201015 yr So... if Gilbert is spending $600 mill on the casino alone (right?) then we should be the envy of just about anything outside of Vegas, correct?
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