If the river gets changed I will be forever convinced that there is little hope for anything in this city unless it's tied to a private-gets-public-pants-dropping.  Wolstein gave us brown fields in a once-otherwise vibrant tourist destination.  Now Forest City wants to alter the river, which overlooks a sea of empty land, parking lots and crumbling bridges.....

 

:whip:

 

WTF??  I swear you just type stuff to see your name on the screen!

^^There is some much wrong information in that post I am not going to even bother.  Forest City?????

Ok... we can move the Cuyahoga River for a casino which will take an act of Congress... but we can't alter Public Square now can we? Where are this town's priorities?!!

 

End of rant.

 

I like what I see so far with the massings. I think the corner of Ontario and Huron would be great for a high rise hotel, and I believe that Gilbert once stated that he would wait five years before pursuing one. this would be the perfect location if you ask me.

 

Nobody has said we can move the Cuyahoga.  A private developer wants to move the Cuyahoga.  If the people proposing changes to Public Square had that sort of willingness to think big, then we could also make a case to the appropriate agencies to move those streets as well.  This has nothing to do with "our priorities" because there is no "our" involved, just two separate groups who happen to be doing things in the same city.

C'mon guys... let's help out Cleburger.... and, more importantly, any guest who might read his post.

 

If the river gets changed I will be forever convinced that there is little hope for anything in this city unless it's tied to a private-gets-public-pants-dropping.   Wolstein gave us brown fields in a once-otherwise vibrant tourist destination. Now Forest City wants to alter the river, which overlooks a sea of empty land, parking lots and crumbling bridges.....

:whip:

 

First sentence: check out some of the other development threads. 

 

Second sentence:  those aren't "brownfields" and the FEB was hardly a 'vibrant tourist destination' when it was leveled by Wolstein and Co.

 

Third sentence: Forest City does not want to alter the river.  The casino's developer - NOT Forest City - has tossed that idea out there.  Nothing is imminent and it appears it is a non-starter.

^^ "Pittsburgh has more activity downtown and a healthier economy than Cleveland...."

 

Hey Beres show me something to back up this brilliant observation of yours.

 

 

That's pretty well known.  It has a smaller footprint that Cleveland so it's easier to accomplish.  Their newer convention center is struggling however.

^I don't know about this...I know that pre recession, Pittsburgh city officials were wringing their hands over failing shopping areas downtown and what to do about them.

 

Also, a former neighbor of mine from Pittsburgh moved backed about 3 years ago and we have kept into touch.  He is a "city guy" and bought a house in Squirrel Hill.  He has regularly commented about downtown Pittsburgh appearing dead after five o'clock.  I guess it is a matter of impression.

^^ "Pittsburgh has more activity downtown and a healthier economy than Cleveland...."

 

Hey Beres show me something to back up this brilliant observation of yours.

 

 

That's pretty well known. It has a smaller footprint that Cleveland so it's easier to accomplish. Their newer convention center is struggling however.

 

The City of Pittsburgh declared bankruptcy a few years ago. That's not a exactly the definition of a healthy city.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love Pittsburgh. In some cases I like it more than Cleveland because P'burgh has no surface lots downtown, has a subway and has more densely developed mixed-use neighborhoods than Cleveland.

 

But if anything, Pittsburgh tells us how a casino should NOT be sited. Their casino is out of the way, offers little chance to create synergies with other attractions (how does the Carnegie Science Center play off the casino?), although it does for the sports stadiums -- but is in the wrong direction to catch the action between the stadiums and downtown. And you can't easily walk to it from many other attractions. I can't believe they didn't put it anywhere on The Triangle (the downtown side of the rivers). To me, the best location for their casino was between the convention center, strip district and the downtown transportation centers (Amtrak, Greyhound, Port Authority, NCATA, BTA, etc). At least they could have put it in between the two stadiums next to the light-rail station that's under construction.

 

I think Cleveland's location is just about perfect to capture foot, transit and vehicular traffic from existing attractions as well as potentially create new ones.

Pittsburgh has a subway? (googles it)

 

I learned something today.

^I don't know about this...I know that pre recession, Pittsburgh city officials were wringing their hands over failing shopping areas downtown and what to do about them.

 

Also, a former neighbor of mine from Pittsburgh moved backed about 3 years ago and we have kept into touch. He is a "city guy" and bought a house in Squirrel Hill. He has regularly commented about downtown Pittsburgh appearing dead after five o'clock. I guess it is a matter of impression.

 

I really like Pittsburgh, but downtown Pittsburgh has been extremely dead the last couple times I have been there in the evening, and those were nights when the Reds had a game.

 

The general feeling I got was that Pittsburgh's neighborhoods outside of downtown are in better shape overall than Cleveland's, whereas their downtown is worse off.  I honestly don't know how the department stores have stayed in business down there.  I believe they close at 6 PM.

the grass is always greener.... both cities have their plusses and minuses.

^I don't know about this...I know that pre recession, Pittsburgh city officials were wringing their hands over failing shopping areas downtown and what to do about them.

 

Also, a former neighbor of mine from Pittsburgh moved backed about 3 years ago and we have kept into touch.  He is a "city guy" and bought a house in Squirrel Hill.  He has regularly commented about downtown Pittsburgh appearing dead after five o'clock.  I guess it is a matter of impression.

 

Pittsburgh downtown is dead after 5, agreed, but I have talked to visitors of Cleveland and they say the same thing.  People who live downtown would disagree, and I would suspect that is the same as in Pitts.  There are also "pockets" of activity similar to Cleve. W 6th and a market area, although nothing compares to West Side Market.

 

 

Rock Ventures' casino design process in Cleveland needs to be transparent: Analysis

Published: Tuesday, November 23, 2010, 6:00 AM    Updated: Tuesday, November 23, 2010, 2:38 PM

Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

 

Despite its polish, however, the video was not something that Gilbert's company, Rock Ventures LLC, wanted to share with the public now, because it said the designs are still evolving. Naturally, that makes the video all the more fascinating. It also raises questions about how committed the company is to a fully open and public design process.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/11/rock_ventures_casino_design_pr.html

 

 

for a firm that designs high dollar casinos, their website is garbage.

HAHAHA they removed the Lebron witness banner and all the Lebron references from the rendering video. Good

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/11/rock_ventures_casino_design_pr.html

Discuss..Not sure if this is here or in the transportation thread. FC would be the real benefactors to this...

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/12/flats_oxbow_proposes_straighte.html

 

Flats group proposes straightening the crooked Cuyahoga River for Dan Gilbert's Cleveland casino

Published: Wednesday, December 01, 2010, 6:00 AM

Dave Davis, The Plain Dealer

 

 

Ship at Collision Bend

 

A St. Mary's Cement Co. ships on Nov. 11 makes the sharp turn on the Cuyahoga River behind Tower City Center

Watch video

CLEVELAND -- The idea of straightening the Cuyahoga River to allow freighters to bypass Collision Bend has been discussed for more than 100 years, but a local community development group believes the age-old plan might give Dan Gilbert the extra room he wants to build his Cleveland casino.

Digging a new river channel across the neck of Collision Bend would create an island out of the jutting piece of land and allow large ships carrying iron ore and limestone to bypass the 16-acre site where Gilbert plans to build the Casino.

 

The Cleveland site hugs Collision Bend, a particularly tortuous stretch of the river named because of occasional accidents.

 

 

Alas, we don't have a dedicated Cuyahoga River Navigational Channel thread (but maybe we should). The closest we get is the Port Authority thread.

 

Anyway, straightening the river is a very, very, very old idea. Where Collision Bend is now was one of the earlier cuts in the river. I think it just makes more sense to work underground and connect the casino with the existing Gateway North garage or a new garage on the surface parking lot north of Huron than to build on Collision Bend (much less create a cut that would take several years just to pass regulations.

 

Besides, don't we already have a slope subsidence problem on Irishtown Bend? This would certainly exacerbate it.

If they try to sell it as a benefit to Gilbert and the casino, it won't stand a chance.  If they try to sell it as beneficial to the navigation channel and industry along the river, it has a very small chance.... but a chance nonetheless.

^The owners of Scranton Peninsula have the most to gain from the river straightening.  I assume they would leave the original bend as-is which would create a little island with the possibility of putting a marina in the unused collision bend portion of the river.  I could see condos, apartments and townhouses going up all over Scranton Peninsula if the plan moved forward.

^Exactly.  This could be a major benefit to a lot of people, and the City as a whole.  But you know the PD will paint it as nothing more than scratching Gilbert's back.

I'll agree with some of the comments on Cleve.com.  This needs a bigger picture viewpoint.  Its about not just navigation of ships but also will have affects on roads, rails, bridges, the towpath, green areas, and how they all link together.  If it can be done for $30 mill with both public and private money it should be a bargain.

 

A port question will be how does this affect dredging going forward with faster moving water.  Another consideration is this should allow larger ships up the Cuyahoga.  With larger ships and easier/cheaper access of the interior river valley this should have more positive repercussions for all.

 

Might this not belong in the Scranton Peninsula thread since this would appear to be steered by and for FCE?

Im really sure what exactly I feel about this. I hope it doesn't take years like some say which will cause for a long delay for the construction of the casino. There seems to be several benefits of the change though.

Ok guys, discuss this all you want (perhaps in a different thread) but this is not going to happen and I am sure you know that and why ($$$)

FC would be the real benefactors to this...

 

How would Forest City benefit from their land which is currently a peninsula becoming an island?

^A Tower City Marina on the island would be a very viable option with freighter traffic re-routed.  But if they don't pursue that, then they would not benefit.

FC would be the real benefactors to this...

 

How would Forest City benefit from their land which is currently a peninsula becoming an island?

 

It becomes much more valuable developable water front land with an opportunity for a marina and homes with docks that cannot be put there now due to the ships navigating the river. Plus it would be contiguous to the new development of the casino instead of staring at an unfinished backside facade/parking garage of Tower City

 

But if they don't pursue that, then they would not benefit.

 

Agreed..assuming they would pursue it.

^A Tower City Marina on the island would be a very viable option with freighter traffic re-routed.  But if they don't pursue that, then they would not benefit.

 

A quick lesson on Cleveland boating: 

 

While a marina may seem appropriate for the site, marinas on the river are not been successful.  There are plenty of open slips outside of the river, where boaters are not trapped by the CSX bridge at the mouth (the Iron Curtain) after a 20 minute no-wake trip down river to get to that point.  The weather in Cleveland is such that if you want to have fun, you need immediate gratification as a boater.  Those docks would have to be mighty darn cheap to entice boaters all the way up there.

Wouldn't bypassing Collision bend with a new channel of water completely isolate the former Scranton Peninsula and require the construction of a brand new swing or lift bridge to connect the island to the west bank?  This seems prohibitively expensive and would delay construction on the casino for years.  And come on, FCE has shown no interest in doing anything with Scranton as a peninsula, why would it becoming an island make any difference?

 

The state of Scranton Peninsula still bugs the crap out of me and the fact that it will be sitting right there, potentially for all casino-goers to see, pisses me off.

Wouldn't bypassing Collision bend with a new channel of water completely isolate the former Scranton Peninsula and require the construction of a brand new swing or lift bridge to connect the island to the west bank? This seems prohibitively expensive and would delay construction on the casino for years. And come on, FCE has shown no interest in doing anything with Scranton as a peninsula, why would it becoming an island make any difference?

 

The state of Scranton Peninsula still bugs the crap out of me and the fact that it will be sitting right there, potentially for all casino-goers to see, pisses me off.

 

What about the carter road bridge

I honestly wouldn't wast too much time with this...

Yeah it seems like kind of a waste of money to me.

No.  It's a great USE of money.  But it's a waste of time discussing because it is such a pipe dream.

It's not even about being a waste of money... I just wouldnt pay attention to something that isn't going to happen any time soon. I can't believe the pd even ran an article on this.

I can. It's sensationalistic and dramatic

The state of Scranton Peninsula still bugs the crap out of me and the fact that it will be sitting right there, potentially for all casino-goers to see, pisses me off.

 

Firstly, casino goers won't see anything. The gambling portion of the building will be nowhere near the windows. Have you ever been to a casino with a view?

 

Secondly, the Scranton peninsula is a floodplain. Given a few (or several) thousand years, that cut will make itself. Businesses and homes with a dense street grid occupied the lowest portions of the flats until 1913. If one were to build anything there, it would behoove them to make it well above (10-20 feet) the crestline and sturdy enough to hold back thick mud, logs and the cars from Steelyard Commons.

^Not to take us further off topic, but does the lower Cuyahoga EVER flood since it's been artificially widened and deepened to accommodate commercial shipping?  I thought the Cuyahoga experienced record flooding last summer and I hardly noticed a difference in the lower portion.  Point is, I don't think flooding is a major concern of the owners of Scranton Peninsula.

Cleveland designers brainstorm downtown ideas on Mall, lakefront and riverfront for Group Plan Commission

Published: Thursday, December 02, 2010, 5:00 AM    Updated: Thursday, December 02, 2010, 11:51 AM

Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

 

Instead of whining about it, local practitioners are making constructive suggestions.

 

Eager to have their say on the future of the city's core, roughly 60 local architects, landscape architects and planners convened Tuesday at the Louis Stokes Wing of the Cleveland Public Library for an all-day brainstorming session on the future of downtown.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/12/downtown_planners_brainstorm_i.html

 

There is a proposed rendering showing the riverfront, but this really doesn't mean anything, just a suggestion.

Pic I took with my cell phone today.  Not the best quality (or weather), of course... but it gives a good and different angle from what we usually see of the proposed site.

 

^That angle makes it look much wider then I thought it was.  Makes me wonder why they can't fit it there...

Ahem.....

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,11674.msg532466.html#msg532466

Rock Gaming LLC and Caesars Entertainment Corp. have entered a joint agreement to develop and operate new casinos in Cincinnati and Cleveland.

 

The companies announced the venture Wednesday, calling it Rock Ohio Caesars LLC. Detroit-based Rock and Las Vegas-based Caesars say a general manager for each casino is to be named in early 2011.

 

Rock Ohio Caesars expects to invest $400 million in Cincinnati and $600 million in Cleveland and create a combined 12,700 direct and indirect jobs. Rock says it's hired two diversity consultants to assure a mix of construction contractors.

 

http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-news-caesars-to-manage-cleveland-casino,0,7197905.story

 

I like the name.  When Gilbert purchased naming rights to Gund Arena, I was hoping he would give it a name like "Rock Arena" instead of what we got.

I like the name.  When Gilbert purchased naming rights to Gund Arena, I was hoping he would give it a name like "Rock Arena" instead of what we got.

 

"The Rock" would have been fab!

Ties in with the Rock Hall, and all things Cleveland. 

 

MTS, I think you should write a letter

Ties in with the Rock Hall, and all things Cleveland. 

 

MTS, I think you should write a letter

 

Was walking in to work today and saw 3 construction dumpsters as well as two guys torching a couple of parking meters on the Prospect side of the Higbee building.  I assume this is progress on the temporary casino?

^yup started on Tuesday.  It's being called "Higbee Building Phase 2 Renovation".

"torching parking meters" this would have been cool to see

Cross-posted from the "What other states are doing with rail transit" thread.....

 

 

Feds grant $25M for downtown light rail

Tom Greenwood / The Detroit News

 

Federal officials on Thursday announced a grant agreement has been signed for $25 million toward a proposed light rail project in downtown Detroit.

http://detnews.com/article/20110121/METRO05/101210386/Feds-grant-$25M-for-downtown-light-rail#ixzz1BgDuqf5W

 

That's great news! And note that one of the co-chairs of this rail project is Dan Gilbert, who is building the $600 million casino at Tower City Center. Hey Dan -- include a railroad station in the basement of your casino for the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, the WestShore Corridor commuter rail and for Amtrak! You'll have up to 20 trains arriving and departing each day AT YOUR CASINO!

The PD reported in the Metro section that the timetable for opeing the Phase 1 casino will be annouced in the next 12 days. It also had a picture of some scaffolding being set up around the Higbee building. It's on page 2 of the metro section, I couldn't find it online. I don't remember a formal annoucement about a decision concerning a Phase I casino but I guess it's moving forward.

Anyone know the status of those buildings seen behind the Tower City Ampitheater?

 

It's really cool to see a series of old buildings still intact. I hope that the casino project will lead to some kind of attractive re-use.

 

With a boardwalk, improved riverfront, towpath and future (fingers crossed) cuyahoga valley line this little spot could have tons of potential. If the Casino rightly embraces the river this could be a very cool and attractive little spot. It's steps away from Gateway.

 

p.s. During the events held down there the place really does seem to have a nice, festive vibe. Would be nice to see more permanence in that regard.

 

 

Pic I took with my cell phone today. Not the best quality (or weather), of course... but it gives a good and different angle from what we usually see of the proposed site.

 

Anyone know the status of those buildings seen behind the Tower City Ampitheater?

 

It's really cool to see a series of old buildings still intact. I hope that the casino project will lead to some kind of attractive re-use.

 

A parking lot sure would be an attractive re-use -- not.

Cross-posted from the "What other states are doing with rail transit" thread.....

 

 

Feds grant $25M for downtown light rail

Tom Greenwood / The Detroit News

 

Federal officials on Thursday announced a grant agreement has been signed for $25 million toward a proposed light rail project in downtown Detroit.

http://detnews.com/article/20110121/METRO05/101210386/Feds-grant-$25M-for-downtown-light-rail#ixzz1BgDuqf5W

 

That's great news! And note that one of the co-chairs of this rail project is Dan Gilbert, who is building the $600 million casino at Tower City Center. Hey Dan -- include a railroad station in the basement of your casino for the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, the WestShore Corridor commuter rail and for Amtrak! You'll have up to 20 trains arriving and departing each day AT YOUR CASINO!

 

Amen... most important quotes from the Detroit News article:

"We have to have this if we want to be even a mediocre city, let alone a world class city," said Page, who lives on Woodward near Grand River.

 

"Real cities have rail systems. Even people who don't use them want to live near transportation systems. If we don't build this now, I don't see much hope for Detroit or the state of Michigan."

 

I wish I could be more optimistic about Dan Gilbert's astuteness and awareness that his new casino will be sitting nearly on top of Cleveland's rail transit hub which, as you note, could become even greater with the reestablishment of our intercity and regional passenger railroad terminal.