I hope this does not go by TC. We have plenty around there already, lets spread this out. This needs to go on the lakefront or at least the river. Make this Casino a class act. Not some place for the locals to go and gamble. I like Gilbert and he seems like a smart and classy guy. I’m sure however he does it will turn out good. But it needs to be on the water with great views and a revolving restaurant. So when those people from out of town come in to gamble and stay in the hotel, they say "hey, Cleveland is getting its act together". I mean it’s so simple.. We could really make this into something that leaves a great mark on the city. Don’t stick it behind TC….

 

No no my friend; revolving restaurant does not equal class act.  I'm also going to have to disagree with you on the site. TC is exactly where it should go in order to have any real affect as a downtown catalyst. It should be centered directly across TC with a large, inviting under Huron connection to Tower City Center. MTS was right when he suggested the importance of attached retail to casinos which is why he was wrong about the Scranton Peninsula. This works both ways, for as shoppers flow into the casino, so to do hotel and casino guests flow out to TC and even Public Square. Yes of course there will be that segment of the market that will get off the bus, gamble and get back on to leave. For others this location is close to the other attractions they may want to see while in Cleveland: E.4th, Warehouse District, The Q and Progressive Field. It is also close to what we hope will be another reason for folks coming to the Cleve namely the Medical Mart. One immediate economic spur I could forsee would be interest from high end retailers to locate in TC if a casino becomes its anchor on one end. You might eventually attract a department store back into Higbee.

 

Keep in mind FCE has no plans to develop that property and now that the MM and CC site has been appropriately located elsewhere, this may be the last best chance for the TC site. I also believe it's a good site for the hotel component. I would suggest two towers built above the casino similar in mass to the Ritz and Skylight office tower and located directly across from the aforementioned towers. By my estimates that should provide about 400-500 rooms and if they believe they need more rooms they could build taller(preferably not to much taller) or terrace down towards the river. Either way it would create an interesting canyon effect with the Terminal Tower looming over the complex.

 

One more consideration is that there are already some fairly lofty plans for the lakefront and FEB. Those projects don't need a casino just a better economic climate.

 

He certainly did, and he has done a great job with the Cavs.  But one of the city's best leaders??

What has he done for schools, arts, urban development, economic development (other than his businesses), crime, transportation...what leadership has he shown on any urban issue?

 

I don't by any means hate the guy, and I appreciate how he likes Cleveland.  But I don't see all that much difference between him and Lerner, both out of town guys who own sports teams.  With Sportstime Ohio, the Dolans probably employ more people than Quicken Loans. 

 

The real difference is the fact that he has partnered with Forest City, and Forest City has made him the face of the developments they want  to do in Cleveland.  Forest City had used him in their newspaper to twice make impassioned pleas to try to swing public opinion to their side.

 

Now that I think of it, how different is this casino proposal than the other riverboats and casinos Forest City has pushed for Tower City land?  How much of this casino is owned by Forest City?

 

 

Scranton Peninsula is a poor choice for two reasons:

 

One being that there is not good road infrastructure to deliver the traffic. Traffic would have cross active lift bridges and meander on two lane roads to get there. From any direction, there is no simple path without zig-zagging down narrow roads after exiting the highways. I suppose that's why a pedestrian bridge would be necessary, but I imagine that the traffic through Tremont and Ohio City would have to increase and back up just to staff the place. It is unlikely people would pay downtown parking fees for a casino on the west side with closer parking options. Parts of the flats not owned by the Gilbert plan could likely be turned into surface lots relatively cheaply. It is not unlikely that the owners of those parcels would try to cash in that way instead of building more business ventures. It is hard for me to envision more than a sterile, if not gaudy, building protruding out on the peninsula, surrounded by seas of cars with--as is the case with other casino ventures--no visible signs of life on foot.

 

The second being that the peninsula as it currently stands on average about 5 feet above the water line and is squarely in the 500 year flood plane. The last major flood was in 1913 and it wiped out just about everything. Prior to 1913, there were homes dotted throughout the lowest parts of the flats, but not anymore. The tables that have the peninsula placed in the 500 year flood range were set before the forest and swamps of the Cuyahoga basin were developed into "well draining" strip malls and cul-de-sacs. Tack on the current climate models of more heavy, infrequent rainfall in the Great Lakes and building there seems to be a fools venture--or better yet--a real gamble.

This is a not a silver bullet. This is just another piece the city can use to attract conventions and other large events. It also may attract a new crowd downtown that otherwise would never come downtown. Whenever I go to Niagara Falls for the weekend we try to stay at one of the casinos because the hotel is relatively nice and we like to people watch. I think there are a lot people like me who would pop into the casino on occasion as a change of pace. It just one more form of entertainment the city can offer. I really don't see how the cons outweighs the pros.

 

Agreed, there is no silver bullet.  But you must consider that the majority of the gamblers will be those who can least afford it.  Gambling casinos bring a wealth of social issues when you consider the people gambling away house payments, college savings, retirements....  let alone the consideration that all the money spent gambling would/could be spent on dining/movies/other recreation around the area.

 

The cons can easily outweigh the pros.  That's why this Issue 3 is a bad deal.  Ohio must be very careful about bringing these casinos into urban areas.

Double check the tax limits on the revenue - Issue 3 caps that tax at 33%.  It should be at least taxable all the way up to 50%.

I disagree with this.  States that have the 50% (or more) tax are finding it's not competitive and are looking to cut it below 50%.  At 50%, payouts will have to be reduced and customers will figure that out.  PA has the highest rate in the country (55%) (but they only have slots), and I think that will hurt them eventually. 

 

You need the casinos to be financially healthy.

This is a not a silver bullet. This is just another piece the city can use to attract conventions and other large events. It also may attract a new crowd downtown that otherwise would never come downtown. Whenever I go to Niagara Falls for the weekend we try to stay at one of the casinos because the hotel is relatively nice and we like to people watch. I think there are a lot people like me who would pop into the casino on occasion as a change of pace. It just one more form of entertainment the city can offer. I really don't see how the cons outweighs the pros.

 

Agreed, there is no silver bullet. But you must consider that the majority of the gamblers will be those who can least afford it. Gambling casinos bring a wealth of social issues when you consider the people gambling away house payments, college savings, retirements....   let alone the consideration that all the money spent gambling would/could be spent on dining/movies/other recreation around the area.

 

The cons can easily outweigh the pros. That's why this Issue 3 is a bad deal. Ohio must be very careful about bringing these casinos into urban areas.

 

I'm willing to bet that the people who have an addiction to that level (bet car, house, savings, etc) are already gambling at back door games, horse tracks or other states...

This is a not a silver bullet. This is just another piece the city can use to attract conventions and other large events. It also may attract a new crowd downtown that otherwise would never come downtown. Whenever I go to Niagara Falls for the weekend we try to stay at one of the casinos because the hotel is relatively nice and we like to people watch. I think there are a lot people like me who would pop into the casino on occasion as a change of pace. It just one more form of entertainment the city can offer. I really don't see how the cons outweighs the pros.

 

Agreed, there is no silver bullet. But you must consider that the majority of the gamblers will be those who can least afford it. Gambling casinos bring a wealth of social issues when you consider the people gambling away house payments, college savings, retirements.... let alone the consideration that all the money spent gambling would/could be spent on dining/movies/other recreation around the area.

 

The cons can easily outweigh the pros. That's why this Issue 3 is a bad deal. Ohio must be very careful about bringing these casinos into urban areas.

 

I'm willing to bet that the people who have an addiction to that level (bet car, house, savings, etc) are already gambling at back door games, horse tracks or other

states...

 

Exactly you don't think addicts are already gambling online or illegally? At least now it will be regulated.  Some of the $$$ people lose will go to the city/state instead of criminals. 

Double check the tax limits on the revenue - Issue 3 caps that tax at 33%.  It should be at least taxable all the way up to 50%.

I disagree with this.  States that have the 50% (or more) tax are finding it's not competitive and are looking to cut it below 50%.  At 50%, payouts will have to be reduced and customers will figure that out.  PA has the highest rate in the country (55%) (but they only have slots), and I think that will hurt them eventually. 

 

You need the casinos to be financially healthy.

 

Not competitive for who?  For starters, dont' let the casinos build some $500 million monstrosity and they won't have big construction loans to pay back.  Put the casino in an already available structure someplace downtown like Detroit initially did.  You'll generate close to the same revenue with a fraction of the cost.  That'll help em be competitive.  Don't include a hotel and it'll encourage people to explore the city to get a room.  Kill 2 birds with 1 stone.  Instead of comping people a room at the casino, comp them a room or meal somewhere else in the city.  Sounds far fetched cuz it''ll never happen.

This is a not a silver bullet. This is just another piece the city can use to attract conventions and other large events. It also may attract a new crowd downtown that otherwise would never come downtown. Whenever I go to Niagara Falls for the weekend we try to stay at one of the casinos because the hotel is relatively nice and we like to people watch. I think there are a lot people like me who would pop into the casino on occasion as a change of pace. It just one more form of entertainment the city can offer. I really don't see how the cons outweighs the pros.

 

Agreed, there is no silver bullet. But you must consider that the majority of the gamblers will be those who can least afford it. Gambling casinos bring a wealth of social issues when you consider the people gambling away house payments, college savings, retirements.... let alone the consideration that all the money spent gambling would/could be spent on dining/movies/other recreation around the area.

 

The cons can easily outweigh the pros. That's why this Issue 3 is a bad deal. Ohio must be very careful about bringing these casinos into urban areas.

 

I'm willing to bet that the people who have an addiction to that level (bet car, house, savings, etc) are already gambling at back door games, horse tracks or other states...

 

If a smoker doesn't have a pack in the house, he doesn't just say, "Shoot, guess I won't smoke."  I agree with hubz.  Pros far outweigh the cons. 

 

In my opinion, the only man to have more of a positive influence and investment in this city in the last 20 years is Dick Jacobs.  Bar none.  When this is built, it will be only another success for him and his communities.  Quicken Loans, Cavs, Fathead, Casino, the list goes on.  Let's face it, the man knows how to do business and does it the right way.

Quicken Loans?  Slow your roll there, trust me, they are hurting like every other financial company.

 

All these things you all say gilbert can do, are only because the developers/movers and shakers of the past laid the foundation.

 

Come on, trust me, get some facts before you start spewing nonsense. My brother just did a refi with them and did the research.  4th largest lender in the US behind Chase, BofA and Wells Fargo.  Check the website, still hiring, not firing, in this recession.  And you're right, the movers and shakers of the past set of a solid foundation for mortgage banking in this city with...?  Guy blazes his own trail.

 

This casino's going to be amazing.

That's a pointless example.  Casinos create & attract a different style of gambler then those who site at home and play online or buy lotto tickets.  It's a destination with higher stakes and much more lure.  Go sit in any of the casinos which border Ohio on a weekday and look at the crowd who's there on a weekday.  Don't kid yourself that the pro's outweigh the cons.  Do some research on the statistics of what happens to mortgage payments and foreclosures and repossessions when a casino opens up nearby.  I have, it's shocking.

Is the first floor of the Higbee Bldg still intact with all the columns,etc.?  I think that would make for a grand European-style casino unlike the big box crap like Mountaineer, etc.  Put the nickel slots in the bargain basement, and reopen the Silver Grille as a signature restaurant, then we've got a more unique and upscale attraction.  Leave the tacky box casinos out at the horse tracks, not in downtown, please.

 

 

We already have casinos within two hours, so this idea that putting one downtown will cause a huge spike in foreclosures and repossession sounds a little over the top. What's a two hour drive? The internet already provdies easy access to online poker and offshore sports gaming sites. One of my buddies lays a bet on one of these sites everyday. I would buy your argument if there was no gambling within a six hour drive, but every state surrounding Ohio has gambling. There is plenty of opportunity for Ohioans to blow money, so how does keeping it out of Ohio help? Take a drive to Wheeling and you will be amazed with the amount of Ohio plates in the parking lot. So, you would rather loss hundreds of millions of dollars to other states based on the idea that gambling adversely affect a small segment of the population?

If it is just a casino, I don't think it will have massive impact.  If it is a casino/indoor entertainment district it will hurt E. 4th and W. 6th

I agree there ar eplenty of ways to induge a gambling habit already.  but doing online poker is not nearly as enticing as going into the casino.  Going into these places makes them feel like a bigshot.  The doormen & dealers are taught to remember names and call you "sir".  They bring you drinks and there is an air of excitement that keeps pleople playing longer than than can afford to.  This is all a 5 or 10 min car or busride from the house.  Enough about the social ills, I'd rather discuss the physical development.  Just don't be blind and tell yourselves there won't be problems with increased foreclosures and such.

It would be nice to build something new downtown.  Maybe a convention center.  Maybe a casino.  Maybe neither?

If it is just a casino, I don't think it will have massive impact. If it is a casino/indoor entertainment district it will hurt E. 4th and W. 6th

 

NOT necessarily.  If the casino district is attracting a new demographic with little spill-over from the people who already frequent E.4th and W.6th, then you have a complimentary development.  A little spill-over to each venue would be expected and beneficial

I don't think a casino or entertainment district is going to hurt downtown clubs and restaurants in the slightest.  During the Flats heyday, there must have been 10s if not 100s of thousands people going down there to eat, pay for parking, and party on a regular basis.  There's no way E4, W6/9, Tremont, and Ohio City hit those numbers, so that tells me there are a ton of potential patrons that are just waiting for reasons to spend their money in Cleveland.  I think it's a dangerous thought presuming one business necessarily steals patronage from another, because that kind of mentality leads to the kind of overall...stagnation we've had downtown lately.  It's good for bars or other entertainment venues to be near one another.  This kind of positive congestion induces people to come out and bar hop as they have more options, whereas if there were only one bar, it might not be worth going out.  That's why entertainment districts are so appealing. 

You have just sold me on Higbees!

 

And I'm with you, please please please no tacky big box structure downtown.

 

Is the first floor of the Higbee Bldg still intact with all the columns,etc.? I think that would make for a grand European-style casino unlike the big box crap like Mountaineer, etc. Put the nickel slots in the bargain basement, and reopen the Silver Grille as a signature restaurant, then we've got a more unique and upscale attraction. Leave the tacky box casinos out at the horse tracks, not in downtown, please.

 

 

This isn't a fair comparison, but I'm going to make it anyway:

 

When the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino opened about 15 miles from Downtown Fort Lauderdale, it was very obvious the negative effect it had on the bars/clubs/restaurants.

 

The reason I don't think Cleveland would suffer the same fate:

 

- The casino will be downtown

- The Hard Rock is an entertainment district all to its own (asides from the hotel and casino they put bars/clubs/stores/concert hall)

 

Actually, wouldn't it be interesting if this casino/hotel was a partnership with the Seminoles and it became one of the many Hard Rock Hotel and Casinos now dotting the landscape?  From what Gilbert is talking about (casino, hotel, concert hall, entertainment district) this actually sounds exactly like the Hard Rock near Fort Lauderdale.

 

http://www.hardrockhotels.com/

 

Yet, with the huge positive that it would be in downtown.

The casino is going to be on the edge of Downtown, and sounds much like what you're discussing at the Hard Rock in Fort Lauderdale.  I think the results will be similar.

In all fairness X, 15 miles and the 'edge' of downtown are quite different. I realize your job is directly effected by this proposal (which is BS because we certainly do not need another concert venue) but I really feel like the casino's will be a net gain for Cleveland, just my opinion.

15 miles, I misread and though you wrote 15 min.  Yeah, that makes a difference.  Still, I think this casino will act as an island. 

 

As for "my job", I'm sorry I brought it up.  I was trying to make a point to Moonlight about his pathos debate tactics in the other thread, and I thought it necessary to have full disclosure of where I'm coming from in this one.  Needless to say, I'll be ok whatever happens.  I wouldn't vote for this plan, wherever I worked, though, for the reasons I've already outlined.

But one of the city's best leaders??

What has he done for schools, arts, urban development, economic development (other than his businesses), crime, transportation...what leadership has he shown on any urban issue?

 

I don't by any means hate the guy, and I appreciate how he likes Cleveland.  But I don't see all that much difference between him and Lerner, both out of town guys who own sports teams. 

 

Because he's made the Cavs a perennial powerhouse... What's more, I don't see Dolan or Randy Lerner giving a flyin'g phuk about Cleveland development and future.  Gilbert's been in town 10 minutes, relatively speaking, give him some time.  Sheeesh... Whoever compared Gilbert to the late Dick Jacobs is dead on... both built powerhouse franchises replacing weak and/or incompetently run ones (sadly all too typical for Cleveland) and both spearheaded big, downtown development impact away from their teams, as well. (Gilbert will have more in the future, trust me).

 

... and as for Detroit, Gilbert is relocating his Quicken/Rock/Intuit empire to downtown while, in the meantime, he's headed up a private group to develop the downtown link for Detroit's first light rail system--- I don't know what more you want from this (young) guy...  In other words, he has the audacity to be a majoy playa in not 1 but 2 Rust Belt metro areas.

 

... as to the proposal, I'd prefer Higbee’s NOT be used for a casino.  As much as I've been converted into believing in casino gambling for downtown, I still tend to view Public Sq. as our living room and off limits to casinos... The plan for the River behind the Flats w/ TC access to the Square works for me.

 

I don't think a casino is right for any space in Cleveland but Scranton Pennisula, but I'm not the developer but I kind of think with the proper public input it can be done tastefully and help Tower City as many casinos are attached or in very close proximity to shopping.

 

I really hope the casino is built where Forest City wanted the Medical Mart to be built.  It would boost the retail options in Tower City.  And the issues that location had for a convention center would not exist here.

 

I'd like to see something else done with Scranton Peninsula...  And I'm not sure how a pedestrian bridge crossing the river would work.  You'd need that with a casino.  Not so much with other developments, like condos or offices...

He certainly did, and he has done a great job with the Cavs.  But one of the city's best leaders??

What has he done for schools, arts, urban development, economic development (other than his businesses), crime, transportation...what leadership has he shown on any urban issue?

 

 

With the way corruption is in big cities, he would be nut's to give any of his money to the entities that you mentioned. 

They bring you drinks...

There would not be free alcohol in these Ohio casinos unless another change to state law was made.  (and if they do that, I wish they'd allow open containers in Cleveland, but that's another discussion...)

The casino is going to be on the edge of Downtown....

The casino location has not been determined.  And in Cleveland, even "the edge of Downtown" is a short walk from the center of downtown.

The Indiana casinos do not permit free alcohol.

But one of the city's best leaders??

What has he done for schools, arts, urban development, economic development (other than his businesses), crime, transportation...what leadership has he shown on any urban issue?

 

I don't by any means hate the guy, and I appreciate how he likes Cleveland.  But I don't see all that much difference between him and Lerner, both out of town guys who own sports teams. 

 

Because he's made the Cavs a perennial powerhouse... What's more, I don't see Dolan or Randy Lerner giving a flyin'g phuk about Cleveland development and future.  Gilbert's been in town 10 minutes, relatively speaking, give him some time.  Sheeesh... Whoever compared Gilbert to the late Dick Jacobs is dead on... both built powerhouse franchises replacing weak and/or incompetently run ones (sadly all too typical for Cleveland) and both spearheaded big, downtown development impact away from their teams, as well. (Gilbert will have more in the future, trust me).

 

... and as for Detroit, Gilbert is relocating his Quicken/Rock/Intuit empire to downtown while, in the meantime, he's headed up a private group to develop the downtown link for Detroit's first light rail system--- I don't know what more you want from this (young) guy...  In other words, he has the audacity to be a majoy playa in not 1 but 2 Rust Belt metro areas.

 

... as to the proposal, I'd prefer Higbee’s NOT be used for a casino.  As much as I've been converted into believing in casino gambling for downtown, I still tend to view Public Sq. as our living room and off limits to casinos... The plan for the River behind the Flats w/ TC access to the Square works for me.

 

 

He is also owner of Bizdom U, http://www.bizdom.com/  an academy for entruprenuers of the future. If they open in downtown Detroit or Cleveland, they will receive significant start-up capital to revitalize these downtowns.  He is HEAVILY invested in Detroit and Cleveland.

 

There's also a great Gilbert bio.

 

http://www.bizdom.com/about/founder

The Indiana casinos do not permit free alcohol.

 

This brings up a point that has bothered me about non-vegas casinos.  The casinos in Vegas give away alcohol to draw you to the games and then loosen you up so you either make bigger bets or play less than perfect strategy.  Makes sense.  The Detroit casinos (and most other non-vegas casinos I've been to) can't give away free alcohol.  State law, I get it, no problem.  But then they go and charge $5 for a Miller Lite and like $6.50 for a Jack and Coke. 

 

Why wouldn't they charge $1 for every drink?!?  I'm already getting $1 chips to tip the waitress, so its not a big deal for me to give her 2 $1 chips.  This would basically serve the same purpose as giving drinks away, but it would comply with state laws.  Dan Gilbert, if you are reading this, make all drinks $1 for people gambling!

Wouldn't free/cheap drinks in a casino located in Cleveland hurt the bars/clubs in downtown?

Wouldn't free/cheap drinks in a casino located in Cleveland hurt the bars/clubs in downtown?

 

No.

I don't understand why people think they have to drink when they gamble.  The casinos count on you to make bad decisions.  The alcohol only helps their cause.

Wouldn't free/cheap drinks in a casino located in Cleveland hurt the bars/clubs in downtown?

 

To expand on Clefan98's answer, only patrons engaged in the act of gaming would receive the discount price for alcohol. Trust me they no if your really gambling or just plopping your cheap a$$ next to a machine to wait for a cocktail server.

I don't understand why people think they have to drink when they gamble.  The casinos count on you to make bad decisions.  The alcohol only helps their cause.

 

To ease the pain of losing your money. :wink:

There's also a great Gilbert bio.

 

http://www.bizdom.com/about/founder

 

Sweet Bio... DG's d' friggin man!

Anybody up for a bus trip to Detroit?  Let's see how Gilbert's home town has fared after not one, but two major casinos.

What we want to do in Ohio has no comparison whatsoever to the casinos in Detroit.

 

Every Ohioan who gambles spends all their money outside of the state.  All we want to do is prevent some of that money from leaving.  Detroit is still an hour from Ohio, and more than that from one of the big three cities.  Lawrenceburg Indiana is just a few miles from one of the big three cities.  Go to the Hollywood on any given night and count the cars from ohio.

 

Why do you insist on basing the strength of Detroit on the casinos?  Might you just be trying to confuse your audience?

What we want to do in Ohio has no comparison whatsoever to the casinos in Detroit.

 

Every Ohioan who gambles spends all their money outside of the state.   All we want to do is prevent some of that money from leaving.  Detroit is still an hour from Ohio, and more than that from one of the big three cities.  Lawrenceburg Indiana is just a few miles from one of the big three cities.  Go to the Hollywood on any given night and count the cars from ohio.

 

Why do you insist on basing the strength of Detroit on the casinos?  Might you just be trying to confuse your audience?

 

We lose lots of 19 year olds to Canada where the drinking age is lower.  Are you ready to lower that?

 

How about those guys who go to Nevada to buy a legal hooker?  Is Ohio ready for that?

 

I just don't buy the "money is flowing out" argument.  I think it's a small slice of a pie that's shrinking too quickly.  Once every state has gambling the politicians will still find a way to have budget woes.  Then what?

What we want to do in Ohio has no comparison whatsoever to the casinos in Detroit.

 

Every Ohioan who gambles spends all their money outside of the state. All we want to do is prevent some of that money from leaving. Detroit is still an hour from Ohio, and more than that from one of the big three cities. Lawrenceburg Indiana is just a few miles from one of the big three cities. Go to the Hollywood on any given night and count the cars from ohio.

 

Why do you insist on basing the strength of Detroit on the casinos? Might you just be trying to confuse your audience?

 

We lose lots of 19 year olds to Canada where the drinking age is lower. Are you ready to lower that?

 

How about those guys who go to Nevada to buy a legal hooker? Is Ohio ready for that?

 

Yes.  Lower the drinking age to 16 and raise the driving age to 18.  I'll take a lowering of the drinking age to 18 in the meantime though.

 

Yes.  Legalize prostitution houses and regulate them... keep them clean and protect the prostitutes and clients from disease and violence.  Keep street prostitution illegal, but prostitutes and Johns a safe, clean place to go for a prostitute.  If someone wants to pay for sex and someone else is willing to sell it, who am I to say they can't engage in that business?

 

Back on topic, the money IS flowing out of the state.  I'm not sure how you can't understand that argument.  I also believe that a few casinos (if done correctly) could make some Ohio cities more of a destination for conventions and leisure travellers.  This isn't about taking money from out of state patrons, it's simply about keeping that money in the state.  It's also about creating jobs and investing in our cities.  The casinos want to invest $1 billion or something close to that in Ohio.  How proud are we that we tell them "no thanks"?

Anybody up for a bus trip to Detroit?  Let's see how Gilbert's home town has fared after not one, but two major casinos.

 

First, downtown Detroit was/is in much more dire straights than downtown Cleveland.  Casinos were looked at as a means to SAVE not supplement downtown, which the latter is more what Cleveland is looking at them for.  The casinos have boosted Detroit's tourist traffic...

 

Second, the laws must be correctly written for casino hometown's to reap the bennies of Casino taxes (ie for Cleveland schools)... I'm not a huge casino/gambling person, but I do believe we need the law passed here so we can keep the $$ in state given that 3 of our 5 neighbor (touching) states have gambling: PA, MI & Indiana.

^ 4 out of 5.  Left out WV.  Don't worry, it is easy to forget.  :lol:

^ 4 out of 5. Left out WV. Don't worry, it is easy to forget.   :lol:

 

And everthing else beside gambling is legal in Kentucky!!

What we want to do in Ohio has no comparison whatsoever to the casinos in Detroit.

 

Every Ohioan who gambles spends all their money outside of the state. All we want to do is prevent some of that money from leaving. Detroit is still an hour from Ohio, and more than that from one of the big three cities. Lawrenceburg Indiana is just a few miles from one of the big three cities. Go to the Hollywood on any given night and count the cars from ohio.

 

Why do you insist on basing the strength of Detroit on the casinos? Might you just be trying to confuse your audience?

 

We lose lots of 19 year olds to Canada where the drinking age is lower. Are you ready to lower that?

 

How about those guys who go to Nevada to buy a legal hooker? Is Ohio ready for that?

 

I just don't buy the "money is flowing out" argument. I think it's a small slice of a pie that's shrinking too quickly. Once every state has gambling the politicians will still find a way to have budget woes. Then what?

 

Agreed!

Just got back from Pittsburgh, and the new casino had plenty of Ohio plates in the the parking lots around the casino and stadium. For those that don't buy the idea that money is flowing out, take a trip to Wheeling and Pittsburgh.

How much money?

With the way this issue is written, how much of that money will benefit the state?

Will the money spent at the casio have otherwise been spent at existing businesses?

The money spent at the casino might otherwise have been spent at existing businesses.  Among them are liquor stores, convenience marts, the Ohio Lottery, Bingo halls, and out of state casinos.  I do not care where it might otherwise have been spent, especially when if we're talking about the poor and lower middle class since it shouldn't really be being spent anywhere, but saved.  How much money spent on lottery tickets would have otherwise been spent at existing businesses, or better yet, saved?  And how's Ohio's educational system doing with the funding boom that is the Lottery?  My point is this:  any argument over how to distribute this or that, or what should be allowed and what shouldn't, or this would be good because it would provide revenue for the state, or this would be bad because group x is negatively effected, it's all bs.  For me what it comes down to is by what right does the state decree that opening up a casino is illegal?  This stuff is basically a voluntary tax.  The casino will make money.  The state will get a cut of that and then find some way to spend/squander it.  Best case scenario, our casinos keep enough Ohio money from being lost at out-of-state casinos that the ones closer to our borders choke and some close down, making the Ohio locations more attractive to gamblers in those neighboring states.  Reverse the suction.

This "keep $1 Billion in Ohio" argument is ridiculous.  People like to get away, travel, etc.  No matter how big & how nice we make casinos in Cleveland & the rest of the state, people are still going to drive to Niagara, Windsor, Pittsburgh, etc.  Maybe not as much, but they still will, because they go to see other cities, visit family & friends, etc.

^But I think the people who still travel to Niagra or Pittsburgh to gamble because they want to travel will be cancelled out by people from Pittsburgh and Niagra who will travel to Ohio because they want to travel.