^ Well said AJ. I really don't have much more to add.

+1 AJ.  That's why I am fine with catering to both types.

 

 

I am with AJ...there are 2 (at least) types of gamblers.

 

Those who just want the "fix" and will get in their car or on a bus and go to a race track in WV or PA, or a stand alone Casino.  They don't give a flying fig for "amenities" or the fact that the only thing within 50 miles that is of any interest is the building they are standing in.

 

Then there are people who will make a little gambling part of their Trip.

 

People generally don't go to New Orleans to gamble (unless it is the closest casino to them), they go for other reasons AND gamble as well.  People don't go to Nigara Falls CA to gamble, they go to see the falls, ride the maid of the mist AND gamble as well...if they just wanted to gamble they would stop and the Indian Casino on the NY side or go to Erie or Presque Isle what ever was closest.

 

The point is...You need to do absolutely NOTHING to appeal to the first kind of gambler....The blue hair spending her social security check in the slots because it is the only excitement in her life.

 

She will be in your casino if it is the closest/most convenient.......if parking is an issue, you can Run a Bus from Randal park Mall or Rolling Acres Mall to Downtown Cleveland or any where else that has a couple hundred parking places.

 

The key is make it convenient/enticing for somebody who comes in from Detroit (they have their own) or Flies in from NYC or Boston to catch a baseball game, or anyone coming to visit the RR HOF....or the people who come here because of our food scene or the boat show, or some convention, or visiting the family back in the 216 from Cali or Carolina.

 

People's who's main/only focus is the gambling are coming because it is a 20 minute drive instead of 2 hours.

 

You have to do absolutely nothing to capture this market.  People in Moon township PA or Farmington Hills MI will not be visiting the Cleveland Casino...UNLESS they are in CLE for something else and happen to want to gamble.

 

So Martha from Parma who's last trip downtown was for Xmas window shopping at the Higbee's in the 60-70's will now come for the Casino and still not visit any other location downtown. 

 

BUT the guy staying at the double tree because he is here for a medical convention just might visit the RR HOF, catch a ball game, eat at Lola, visit tremont becuase he saw Lucky's on Diners Drive ins and Dives, go to the Xmas story House  AND he might also visit the casino.

 

 

 

 

People's who's main/only focus is the gambling are coming because it is a 20 minute drive instead of 2 hours.

 

I agree with most of what you said, but I think this is an overgeneralization.  I know plenty of suburban people (my in-laws included) who like to go downtown for various reasons (sports, theater, restaurants) who probably would also be interested in checking out the casino.  I doubt they'd come down just for the casino, but it'd be another fun thing to do while they're down there.  Many people who make a 20 or 30 minute drive to downtown want to make a night of it before they retreat to their boring suburb, and the casino would be just another thing to do while they're downtown.  These are the people who have a "take it or leave it" attitude towards gambling.  If it's convenient, they go to the casino, but they wouldn't make a special trip for it.  (As far as gambling, I would fall into that category as well.)

Nope Jeff We agree completely.

 

People who ONLY want to gamble will come because it is the closest place.

 

You need to cater IE make it easy/convenient for those who gambling is not the main or sole purpose.. I only used out of town examples but the person from Chardon coming to pick wick and Frolic or the HOB for a show or a Browns game are pretty much the same people.

 

I would suggest Gilbert fund some of those downtown "trolly" type buses to go between Ohio City, Tremont, DS,  Playhouse square and the Casino front door.  Make it easy to go to a Play or GLBC or Dinner at Dante AND visit the Casino.  Hell GLBC runs their shuttle bus back and forth for Tribe games....just fund them to Run every hour on their used cooking oil.

I would suggest Gilbert fund some of those downtown "trolly" type buses to go between Ohio City, Tremont, DS,  Playhouse square and the Casino front door.  Make it easy to go to a Play or GLBC or Dinner at Dante AND visit the Casino.  Hell GLBC runs their shuttle bus back and forth for Tribe games....just fund them to Run every hour on their used cooking oil.

 

Now there's a good idea.  People having been talking about having some type of cheap/free trolley/bus that drives around between downtown, Ohio City, Tremont and Detroit Shoreway.  The casino should do it.  Make it free and plaster it with casino advertising but don't require passengers to be going to the casino to use it.  (obviously it will stop right in front of the casino)  Then you could park anywhere and easily get to the casino or other destinations.

Nope Jeff We agree completely.

 

People who ONLY want to gamble will come because it is the closest place.

 

I went back and read your post and I see I didn't follow your logic correctly the first time.  Yes, I agree with what you were saying.

 

Also, the trolley idea is perfect.  It'd be great for the casino, casino-goers, and non-casino-goers all at the same time.

That and only have it stop at say GLBC, Lola, Luxe and playhouse square.

 

Try to avoid having it become an RTA extension.  That way you might get the skerred suburbanites to use it.  They wont ride the RTA to the game but they will ride a bus from McCarthy's, the Flat Iron, or GLBC. 

 

Who knows they might become more accepting of "public" transportation if they can use it in a controlled environment......hmmm if I can ride a bus from Dante to the Casino, why not hop on the red line at brookpark and not have to worry about driving/parking downtown or in Tremont.

 

 

 

Here we go with the Columbia building..  From the Cleveland Landmarks Commission agenda:

 

REPORT

1. Columbia Building - 112 Prospect Avenue

Proposed demolition for Casino garage

Ward 3 - Cimperman

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/2011/05122011/index.php

 

So the Landmarks site has all the renderings with the lovely pedestrian bridge.  It would go across diagonal.  Just aweful :wtf: 

 

 

^ Wtf is that. That better not happen

I have already had a fit about that bridge in the demolition thread.  If this happens this city has no soul.

Awful.

 

One step forward, two steps backward.

I vote for airport style moving walkways....  some neon lighting on the underside.... and world class signage dead center on the top, of course

What the Hell? Can I also ask, How close does the current Tunnel/Walkway run by this location? I am trying to find it on a map with no luck.  And wouldn't that make more sense in the long term to tap into that especially since it will run between the two parts of the Casino?

 

Edit: I found a map of the walkway. Looks like it will be part of phase two of the Casino if it's built.

I think if people are going to use those tunnels, they should be required to travel across them inside hamster balls.

Where's Kasich to throw a wrench in this operation when you need him?

I don't see any images of how the bridge would connect with the Historic Higbee building.  Wouldn't that be the most important aspect of this proposal?  That and the destruction of views down Ontario to the courthouse and the necessary reconfiguration of the stop lights.

I don't see any images of how the bridge would connect with the Historic Higbee building.  Wouldn't that be the most important aspect of this proposal?  That and the destruction of views down Ontario to the courthouse and the necessary reconfiguration of the stop lights.

 

from the demolitions thread:

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/agenda/2011/05122011/index.php

Overhead walkways haven't ruined Minneapolis or Cincinnati.  I'm as upset about the Columbia building as anyone, but I don't see a problem with putting in a walkway. 

I understand why, from the casino developer's perspective, the walkway is proposed.

 

The Columbia building's demolition is totally unnecessary. Geez, why isn't High Street proposed to be vacated to avail more space? Then there's the useless green space on the south side of the existing Gateway garage. If anything should be demolished, it ought to be the Gateway garage, so that site could be more used more efficiently and effectively. I hope the Planning Commission takes the casino developers to the woodshed for this.

I don't feel so well, say it ain't so!  :shoot:

 

Look at all those tunnels!  It reminds me of Indianapolis' Artsgarden and skyways.

 

And there aren't any images of how this will connect to the Higbee building.  I can't believe that Gilbert would be allowed to demolish any of the facade to connect a skyway.

 

...so much for adding foot traffic that would develop synergy between East 4th, the Casino and future developments.  :whip:

^^Sounds good in theory, but what is the cost analysis of doing that vs. what they are proposing?

I understand why, from the casino developer's perspective, the walkway is proposed.

 

The Columbia building's demolition is totally unnecessary. Geez, why isn't High Street proposed to be vacated to avail more space? Then there's the useless green space on the south side of the existing Gateway garage. If anything should be demolished, it ought to be the Gateway garage, so that site could be more used more efficiently and effectively. I hope the Planning Commission takes the casino developers to the woodshed for this.

 

KJP, do you know what is underneath Ontario there?  Is there any hop of constructing a tunnel as opposed to a skyway? 

 

And it looks like they may be adding onto the gateway garage in the future.  I think demolishing that garage to rebuild it is a waste, when it shouldn't be too hard to add on.

 

Also, can we do some Horse Trading and exchange demolition of the Stanley and save the Columbia?  IMO that is the more important building to retain. 

We should know that harming the facade of the Higbee building will be a no-go with the planning commission.  I think that's a given.  As far as the Columbia building is concerned... I don't know if we can count on them to keep it standing.  Time to start emailing... 

Also, can we do some Horse Trading and exchange demolition of the Stanley and save the Columbia?  IMO that is the more important building to retain. 

 

Defintely.

 

...so much for adding foot traffic that would develop synergy between East 4th, the Casino and future developments.  :whip:

 

If someone's purpose is to cross Ontario and get to the casino, I don't get how forcing them to do it outdoors helps East 4th.  I'm guessing most of these people are not synergy types to begin with.  But each one that does wander over is still a casino-induced net gain for East 4th. 

...so much for adding foot traffic that would develop synergy between East 4th, the Casino and future developments.  :whip:

 

If someone's purpose is to cross Ontario and get to the casino, I don't get how forcing them to do it outdoors helps East 4th.  I'm guessing most of these people are not synergy types to begin with.  But each one that does wander over is still a casino-induced net gain for East 4th. 

 

Think of all the people that could be walking by fat fish blue :)

We should know that harming the facade of the Higbee building will be a no-go with the planning commission.  I think that's a given.  As far as the Columbia building is concerned... I don't know if we can count on them to keep it standing.  Time to start emailing... 

 

I pulled up the streetview of the Higbee building (no luck embedding, it ends up fuzzy) but it appears that if you are careful you could easily attach the walkway through opening for the large windows on the second story above the doors on that SE corner with out harming the facade very much.

 

It just looks very awkward to me, crossing that large intersection on the diagonal.

 

 

 

tedders55: unfortunately I don't know what's under Ontario at that location. If you mean, are there any old railroad tunnels there, the answer is no. There is an unused subway tunnel beneath the intersection of Huron and Ontario, crossing under Ontario, but that's a block too far south.

 

Burnham_2011, that's a terrific map. And it makes me wonder why the casino developers don't propose demolishing the old May Co garage, which is a dump. If they replace that deck with a newer, nicer structure, and they replace the Gateway deck at Huron/Ontario with one that fills out that block including turning High Street into a valet lane with parking above, no historic structures would have to be demolished.

 

To me, that would better utilize the existing spaces in that part of downtown. Seems that whoever is looking at a map either does not have a good sense of spatial relationships, or places a higher value on useless green space than historic structures.

How do you know they did not explore that option (the May Co. garage)?  Who owns it and how much $$ do they want for it?  Despite what seems like the assumption, Gilbert & Co. hardly have carte blanche to point and say me-wanty.

Look at images 15 and 16 on the Landmarks page.  Doesn't it seem as if they are planning on building a new garage where the May Co. garage is?

 

All these people want to do is turn downtown into one big parking lot for the casino.

Strange that Steve Litt has not weighed in on this...maybe it is early.  I know he will have some fun with it.

All these people want to do is turn downtown into one big parking lot for the casino.

 

Parking garage

If someone's purpose is to cross Ontario and get to the casino, I don't get how forcing them to do it outdoors helps East 4th.

 

While I can't cite specific statistics, I know carryover foot traffic is a very real element in urban communities.  I can think of a dozen reasons why someone leaving the Casino at ground level facing east on prospect might be drawn to the lights and atmosphere at East Fourth, and this is 100% dissolved if someone takes an escalator up to the walkway and is insulated from the urban environment right up to their car's front door.

 

Even if only .1% (that's 1 out of every 1000) of the 5 million guests Gilbert has had estimated will come each year (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/02/caesars_and_dan_gilberts_gamin.html) decide to stroll down prospect for a drink or to catch the end of an Indians game - that's 5,000 visitors to East Fourth.  Now we can go back and forth over the math -- it's all estimates and guesses -- but my point is that a funneling of guests through a skyway instead of the organic crosswalks which allow people to meander will diminish the value of the casino as an attractor of people to downtown.

 

 

I can't tell you how many times I've ended up at a bar or restaurant or retail shop simply because I was nearby and noticed it.  I understand that the Casino's SE exit isn't immediately facing E4th, this is about long-term vision (something Cleveland has often lacked).  Take a look at Prospect facing East.  As it stands now there is a lot of ground floor real-estate (including the Columbia Building) that could be filled with stores and businesses as downtown grows in a 15-30 yr picture.  The corridor of Prospect from Ontario out to 9th (short of a few surface lots) is one of the best opportunities for development.  With the Terminal Tower/Casino at the head.

 

Channeling pedestrian traffic off through a walkway can only hurt this area. 

 

 

 

 

A diagonal walkway from the new "welcome center" to the second floor corner of the Higbee building across that large intersection as seen in the second picture above seems crazy to me.

 

If Phase 1 is a "temporary" casino, they shouldn't be tearing down large buildings to build parking for it.  Build a garage on that $80 million piece of land you bought.

Seems like a lot of crap for 340 parking spaces...

All these people want to do is turn downtown into one big parking lot for the casino.

 

Parking garage

 

Parking garages

 

If Phase 1 is a "temporary" casino, they shouldn't be tearing down large buildings to build parking for it.  Build a garage on that $80 million piece of land you bought.

 

I really have to wonder why no one with decision making authority (Cimperman, or the planning commission, or whoever) isn't asking that same question. This is a h#ll of a lot of infrastructure investment for a temporary space. I'd like to hear what the long term plans are for this 'connectivity' if Rock Gaming isn't going to keep using that space as a casino. If they are going to keep the casino operating in the Higbee bldg., then I'd like to hear that from Rock as well.

 

 

^ Even if it isn't temporary space, as I beleive they have indicated, they plan on keeping both open (if phase 2 gets built) it's a lot for a secondary space. You would assume the long term plan would direct everything towards the Huron locataion, as it should be the focal point of the complex. Besides, shouldn't you valet at the front door?

If you look at the plans on the Landmarks Commission website, they are planning on a huge amount of valet space- more like an airport terminal drop off area than a standard valet area.  All this will require a huge amount of curb cut area on Prospect and Ontario, making that whole area very pedestrian unfriendly.  I think it's going to be a traffic clusterf*ck.

I called the Landmarks Commission, the person I spoke to said tomorrow would be a preliminary review of the Casino's proposal to build the garage on that spot. Is anyone thinking of attending the meeting? The meetings are public and he said if you want to speak you should alert the chairman ahead of time and they will address you at the meeting. The person I spoke with told me that the actual decision to demolish the building will not occur tomorrow. Guys, if we want to save this, we need to start now. I'm serious, who wants to actually get something going here?

I'll be there tomorrow.

I'm thinking Gilbert wants it there so it benefits the Cavs as well. It's really not very accessible to either locations for the casino.

 

If you look at the plans on the Landmarks Commission website, they are planning on a huge amount of valet space- more like an airport terminal drop off area than a standard valet area.  All this will require a huge amount of curb cut area on Prospect and Ontario, making that whole area very pedestrian unfriendly.  I think it's going to be a traffic clusterf*ck.

 

That area where Huron meets Ontario is pretty pedestrian unfriendly already. I've tried crossing the street and you have to jog just to make it across before the light changes. Plus, when you're waiting (particularly on the W.Huron side) you feel really exposed with all that traffic flying by.  If you want to make the valet area more pedestrian friendly, either put it up closer to May Co. lot, or create a parking deck that comes up to W. Huron.

http://www.clevelandunite.com/2011/05/01/227/

 

"In its 38-page report called “Crooked River Gaming: Weaving the New Casino into Cleveland’s Existing Urban Fabric,” the Cleveland Coalition makes a case for those visitors strolling downtown, taking in shows at PlayhouseSquare, dining on East Fourth Street.

 

The concept is the exact opposite of the parking garages connected to The Q and Progressive Field, Torgalkar said. “Instead of making them leave as fast as possible, this makes them look around,” she said."

 

 

 

If you look at the plans on the Landmarks Commission website, they are planning on a huge amount of valet space- more like an airport terminal drop off area than a standard valet area.  All this will require a huge amount of curb cut area on Prospect and Ontario, making that whole area very pedestrian unfriendly.  I think it's going to be a traffic clusterf*ck.

 

Like I said on a previous page, the principals leading the charge on this is a suburban shopping mall developer (Forbes), a former General Motors executive (Cullen) and the owner of a parking lot empire (Frangos). This proposal is the natural outcome of such people.

I am sensing some of the same hypocrisy and strawman arguments from those opposing the 'convenient' parking options with those who opposed the 3C.  Providing that option does not "make" casino goers do anything.  Nor is there a requirement that you "must" park there to go to the casino.  Just the same as no one was going to "require" you to take the 3C anytime you wanted to travel to Cincy, nobody is going to require that you drive to the casino, that you use the valet, that you use the hamster tunnell, that you leave downtown as soon as you are done gambling, etc., etc.  It is just an option.... an option that will make "some" people very happy and will likely provide the casino with "some" customers it would not have otherwise.  That is all.

 

DISCLAIMER - nothing in this post should be construed as support for the demolition of the Columbia building.

I'd much rather them tear down the run-down Stanley building than the Columbia building. We need to start making phone calls.

I am sensing some of the same hypocrisy and strawman arguments from those opposing the 'convenient' parking options with those who opposed the 3C.  Providing that option does not "make" casino goers do anything.  Nor is there a requirement that you "must" park there to go to the casino.  Just the same as no one was going to "require" you to take the 3C anytime you wanted to travel to Cincy, nobody is going to require that you drive to the casino, that you use the valet, that you use the hamster tunnell, that you leave downtown as soon as you are done gambling, etc., etc.  It is just an option.... an option that will make "some" people very happy and will likely provide the casino with "some" customers it would not have otherwise.  That is all.

 

DISCLAIMER - nothing in this post should be construed as support for the demolition of the Columbia building.

 

I agree with what you're saying.  What I don't support is ruining the existing built environment for these structures.  Tearing down buildings for parking, long diagonal skywalks, and a massive curbcut including two "curve-in lanes" that don't even require drivers to slow down are not things we need one block from the center of Cleveland.

 

If they were proposing 5 times as much parking on a vacant lot and pedestrian traffic wasn't adversely affected, I'd say "build away".

Hts - I understand your point, but I'm not sure it takes into account the macro realities of urban planning.  It's the choice of a person to ride RTA or drive into downtown.  It's the choice of Eaton to build a suburban campus or stay downtown.  It's the choice of suburbanites to live, eat, and work in areas 10 miles out from the city center and only journey to downtown when they want to watch a Baseball game or see a play.

 

Those choices have been made time and time again to the detriment of Urban Centers the country-over.  I'm not saying the "if we build it they will come" strategy works, but I do believe that the built-environment of a city can have massive affects on the way citizens use it.  Just take a look at the Moses v. Jacobs history of New York and we see that urban de/construction have lasting affects on the cities livelihood.

 

I can offer my own experience for an example: I have friends and family who live in the suburbs who haven't ventured through E4th or walked through Ohio City in years.  They enjoy their Beachwood Place, Legacy Village, and massive roads.  Downtown is "dead" like so many CDCers would announce.  I have to fight tooth and nail to get these people to stick around downtown after a baseball game.  The walkway + parking garages make it just TOO easy to ignore all the things going on around them.

 

I know it's a choice - and I'm not saying we mandate what people do.  But it's the role of the government to create policies that do the most good for the general society, and in the case of the City of Cleveland, the vibrancy of the city core is essential to its success.  We should do our best to encourage best practices.