I'm not sure if I'm buying this story....plus, the 4000 or so employee's of the casino are NOT going to want to eat/drink where they work so I assume they will be venturing out into the city.

 

They will eat in the casino because most casinos provide free or reduced-price lunches to their employees for exactly that reason--they want to hold them captive just like their customers.

I don't think that hubz is talking about lunch or dinner breaks.  The employees would not have enough time to go off site, and would not be permitted off site in their uniforms.  I think he is talking about leaving work and going out for the evening.  I have overheard many conversations between dealers about where they are gathering after work in Lawrenceburg.  You obviously don't agree with the casino proponents, but yet you continue to give petty reasons why they shouldn't be permitted.

Well, I don't know if they are trying to "hold them captive", but most restaurants provide reduced price food to their employees.  It's just a standard perk.  I would imagine that casino employees will get that perk at any casino contained restaurant.

I don't think that hubz is talking about lunch or dinner breaks.  The employees would not have enough time to go off site, and would not be permitted off site in their uniforms.  I think he is talking about leaving work and going out for the evening.  I have overheard many conversations between dealers about where they are gathering after work in Lawrenceburg.  You obviously don't agree with the casino proponents, but yet you continue to give petty reasons why they shouldn't be permitted.

 

Exactly. I wasn't so much talking about 'breaks' but rather where employees are going to go when they get off. I doubt they would want to stay and eat/drink in the Casino after an 8 hour shift, but who knows...

I think you people are looking way to far into this.  Who cares where the employees eat.  They can eat whereever they want. 

If they build a casino in Cleveland I suppose it will improve the look of the town, provide some temporary news articles, ribbon cuttings, etc...  Call me a naysayer, but when downtown remains unchanged from this so-called economic development, who you going to blame?

 

I'd rather put the money into residential life for CSU students.  Let's invest in making a campus atmosphere downtown.  30,000 suburban kids spending their money in downtown Cleveland will do more than a bunch of unemployed UAW guys wasting away their unemployment checks in a Cleveland pole-barn with slots.  It's also an investment in our future.  A future where parents can't afford to send their kids out of state to college anymore.  The future where the obvious choice is right here in our back yard.

 

A casino is a temporary fix to take your eyes of the prize.  It's the politicians equivalent of the shovel pass.  Quick gain with no long term rewards.  If you don't believe me take a walk around downtown Detroit on a Friday night.  Or downtown Niagara Falls.  Or downtown Evansville. 

 

Do we want to be Evansville, or do we want to be Boston? 

 

That's all I'm sayin....

^that's the point... "we" aren't investing any money in this... it's not "economic development" and I think anyone who thinks this is some sort of silver bullet needs their heads examined.  It's a piece.  nothing more... nothing less.

If they build a casino in Cleveland I suppose it will improve the look of the town, provide some temporary news articles, ribbon cuttings, etc...   Call me a naysayer, but when downtown remains unchanged from this so-called economic development, who you going to blame?

 

I'd rather put the money into residential life for CSU students. Let's invest in making a campus atmosphere downtown. 30,000 suburban kids spending their money in downtown Cleveland will do more than a bunch of unemployed UAW guys wasting away their unemployment checks in a Cleveland pole-barn with slots. It's also an investment in our future. A future where parents can't afford to send their kids out of state to college anymore. The future where the obvious choice is right here in our back yard.

 

A casino is a temporary fix to take your eyes of the prize. It's the politicians equivalent of the shovel pass. Quick gain with no long term rewards. If you don't believe me take a walk around downtown Detroit on a Friday night. Or downtown Niagara Falls.   Or downtown Evansville.

 

Do we want to be Evansville, or do we want to be Boston?

 

That's all I'm sayin....

 

The purpose of the casino is to keep some of that gambling money in ohio, not to change downtown, so there will be no blame necessary.

 

There will be no public investment, so why does it matter to you?  Are you saying Gilbert should build residences for CSU students?  Its not the same money, you make no sense.

 

I don't think we want to be Boston anymore than Evansville. 

Cleburger, CSU is in the midst of a complete campus renovation, so thats already happening...And would you quit with the Detroit comparisons, our situation is completely unique and in no way related to Detroit's. Pittsburgh has casinos, hows their economy doing?

^that's the point... "we" aren't investing any money in this... it's not "economic development" and I think anyone who thinks this is some sort of silver bullet needs their heads examined.  It's a piece.  nothing more... nothing less.

 

You mean like the folks supporting Issue 3?  Those sorts of head-examination candidates?

Allow me to quote their tagline:  Create 34,000 New Jobs.  Right on top of the website.  http://www.yesonissue3.com/.

Apparently they see it as an economic development engine.

 

I don't disagree that a casino is better than nothing, I just think this is all a waste of time and ten years from now we'll all be here debating why Ohio is in a crisis, what happened to the casino budget numbers, why is downtown suffering.

After all, Dan Gilbert just wants to be the "developer" right?  Why not let him "develop" student housing, retail over at CSU?

Cleburger, CSU is in the midst of a complete campus renovation, so thats already happening...And would you quit with the Detroit comparisons, our situation is completely unique and in no way related to Detroit's. Pittsburgh has casinos, hows their economy doing?

I'm sure most Pittsburgers would attribute their economic success to the well-placed higher-education institutions as partners in a 21st century economy rather than the casinos (which are relatively new developments there).  Any recent national articles I've seen on the city in the wake of the G20 etc all point to this as well.

What economic success in Pittsburgh?

What economic success in Pittsburgh?

 

Everything I've read over the past couple years is how they've weathered the recession better than any of the surrounding rust-belt communities.  The attention was refocused on this for the G20 summit.

 

Consider this piece, albiet an editorial:  http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/09/24/cohon.pittsburgh.renewal

 

What economic success in Pittsburgh?

 

Or this piece via Reuters:  http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-G20/idUSTRE58J08T20090920

I'd rather put the money into residential life for CSU students. Let's invest in making a campus atmosphere downtown. 30,000 suburban kids spending their money in downtown Cleveland...

 

CSU is already working on building a more residential campus, which is great.  But "campus"

is only as good as the number of people who live there. 

 

So when this campus is done and you're a high school Sr and you're looking at state schools...you don't think the idea of having a casino in your back yard would not be a big draw for some?  With free transportation (more or less - you get an RTA pass w/ tuition) between campus and x, y, z entertainment districts? 

 

Options...options are awesome.

Cleburger, my point was that Pittsburgh's economy is (relatively) strong and obviously Detroit's is (relatively) weak. Both have casino's. Having a casino does preclude economic growth nor does in cause an economic downturn . Its one piece of a larger whole. Now Lets get back to Cleveland's proposal please

Or there is this view, from one city that has lost half its population of another that's lost half its population. One is in state receivership while the other has been remarkably resilient fiscally and hasn't made any cuts in city services during the recession...

 

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_600621.html

 

To bring this back to the casino discussion, what bothers me most about casinos is that they don't create anything. A casino doesn't create a product that improves a quality of life, nor does it increase wealth, or raise knowledge or do other things that can make a community better. What creates wealth and higher standard of living is the conversion of raw materials through manufacturing into useful products or learning about the world around us to make better decisions.

 

A casino merely shifts wealth from people of lesser means to people of greater means -- the casino owners. Yes, every so often a gambler wins. But the house always wins.

 

No city is wealthy enough to afford putting a money siphon in it. Certainly Cleveland isn't.

Or there is this view, from one city that has lost half its population of another that's lost half its population. One is in state receivership while the other has been remarkably resilient fiscally and hasn't made any cuts in city services during the recession...

 

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_600621.html

 

To bring this back to the casino discussion, what bothers me most about casinos is that they don't create anything. A casino doesn't create a product that improves a quality of life, nor does it increase wealth, or raise knowledge or do other things that can make a community better. What creates wealth and higher standard of living is the conversion of raw materials through manufacturing into useful products or learning about the world around us to make better decisions.

 

A casino merely shifts wealth from people of lesser means to people of greater means -- the casino owners. Yes, every so often a gambler wins. But the house always wins.

 

No city is wealthy enough to afford putting a money siphon in it. Certainly Cleveland isn't.

 

So do you feel the same about restaurants?  Or bowling alleys?  Or comedy clubs?  Or any other venue where nothing "of value" is created, people just pay for entertainment?  Are there not entire economies based off tourism and entertainment?

I wouldn't even say those things are "up for discussion".  Yes we can discuss them here, but really it's speculation at best.  The only thing we really should be able to get a handle on is the number of people that will be employed at the casino.  That's something that shouldn't be too hard to gather.  Gilbert and his boys will inflate everything and the people against it will deflate everything.  What is seriously depressing is that the media doesn't INVESTIGATE!  It just reports what one side or the other is making up.  They just give us blow-by-blow accounts of what one side is saying about the other, and does nothing to help determine what is actually true.  I don't want pie-in-the-sky estimates of how much economic development it will spur, or how much money we'll keep from leaving the state, nor do I want gloom-and-doom predictions of how much money middle and lower-class citizens well gamble away at the casinos, or how much revenue the business will lose because a new casino opened up.  They have resources - can we get employment figures at midwest/great lakes area casinos similar to those proposed by Issue 3? 

I'd rather put the money into residential life for CSU students. Let's invest in making a campus atmosphere downtown. 30,000 suburban kids spending their money in downtown Cleveland...

 

CSU is already working on building a more residential campus, which is great. But "campus"

is only as good as the number of people who live there.

 

So when this campus is done and you're a high school Sr and you're looking at state schools...you don't think the idea of having a casino in your back yard would not be a big draw for some? With free transportation (more or less - you get an RTA pass w/ tuition) between campus and x, y, z entertainment districts?

 

Options...options are awesome.

 

I actually don't believe that a casino would rank high on a college student's list of things to do.  They are smarter than that, and find more direct ways to waste their money (like giving their money directly to bartenders).

The number of jobs a casino may employ is irrelevant.  There will be jobs, but it is the least of concerns.

 

The minimum age will be 21, so only jrs. or srs. college students will be able to attend.  Friday and Sat nights in Lawrenceburg have a lot of 20 somethings there.  I imagine a good number of them are college students.

I'd rather put the money into residential life for CSU students.  Let's invest in making a campus atmosphere downtown.  30,000 suburban kids spending their money in downtown Cleveland...

 

CSU is already working on building a more residential campus, which is great.  But "campus"

is only as good as the number of people who live there. 

 

So when this campus is done and you're a high school Sr and you're looking at state schools...you don't think the idea of having a casino in your back yard would not be a big draw for some?  With free transportation (more or less - you get an RTA pass w/ tuition) between campus and x, y, z entertainment districts? 

 

Options...options are awesome.

 

I actually don't believe that a casino would rank high on a college student's list of things to do.  They are smarter than that, and find more direct ways to waste their money (like giving their money directly to bartenders).

Apparently you havent been to a casino.  the hard rock, palms, planet hollywood cater to the 20 something who want a cool hotel to chill at.

 

It matters not where the casino goes, it's the hotel brand attached.

Damn, I was having problems responding to shs96's last post but mine didn't appear. Since I hate having to type the same message twice, my short answer is that restaurants do create something consumable. It doesn't have to be manufactured. And just because entire economies may be based on something doesn't necessarily make it worthwhile (see Columbia, cocaine and the 1980s). The issue is utlimately one of judgment and values. Entertainment is a valuable thing, as it provides us a stress relief from work and the general labors of life. It promotes mental and physical health, and therefore enhances quality of life. But do you consider gambling a form of entertainment on par with movies, bowling, comedy clubs, etc.? I don't, but if that's your belief, that's cool. Does gambling's benefits exceed its costs? I don't believe it does, but I am basing this only on my personal beliefs and values about gambling vs. other forms of entertainment. To me gambling ranks down there with adult video stores, cigarette vending machines, etc. You may disagree, but that's ultimately how this issue is going to be decided -- our personal beliefs on benefits vs. the costs of gambling. I won't campaign against casinos, but I'm not going to gamble at one any more than I'm going to play the lottery either (to which I've never initiated a bet).

 

We'll see what happens!

Damn, I was having problems responding to shs96's last post but mine didn't appear. I hate having to type the same message twice! My answer is that restaurants do involve a talent and do bring together ingredients to create something productive. Eating is at least as important as making steel for buildings....

 

And just because entire economies may be based on something doesn't necessarily make that activity worthwhile (see Columbia, cocaine and the 1980s, or Afghanistan and opium today). The issue is utlimately one of judgment and values. Entertainment is a valuable thing, as it provides a stress relief from work and the general labors of life. It promotes mental and physical health, and therefore enhances quality of life.

 

So the value judgment is, do you consider gambling a form of entertainment on par with movies, bowling, comedy clubs, etc.? I don't, but if that's your belief, that's cool. Does gambling's benefits exceed its costs? I don't believe it does, but I am basing this only on my personal beliefs and values about gambling vs. other forms of entertainment. To me gambling ranks down there with adult video stores, strip clubs, payday loans, cigarette vending machines, after-hours joints, etc. (basically everything the mob once controlled -- and might still!). You may disagree, but that's ultimately how this issue is going to be decided -- our personal beliefs on benefits vs. the costs of gambling. I won't campaign against casinos, but I'm not going to gamble at one any more than I'm going to play the lottery either (to which I've never initiated a bet).

 

We'll see what happens!

 

Apparently you havent been to a casino.  the hard rock, palms, planet hollywood cater to the 20 something who want a cool hotel to chill at.

 

It matters not where the casino goes, it's the hotel brand attached.

 

Apparently you haven't been to a casino in Detroit, Windsor, Niagara Falls or Evansville, any of which would be a closer comparison to the casino that would be built here than any of the examples you mentioned.  And to answer your statement, I have been to all of those places.  If it were just Las Vegas locals and not the LA in-crowd, the casinos there would be populated with overweight middle-to-senior midwesterners, just like our casino in Cleveland.

 

Apparently you havent been to a casino.  the hard rock, palms, planet hollywood cater to the 20 something who want a cool hotel to chill at.

 

It matters not where the casino goes, it's the hotel brand attached.

 

Apparently you haven't been to a casino in Detroit, Windsor, Niagara Falls or Evansville, any of which would be a closer comparison to the casino that would be built here than any of the examples you mentioned.  And to answer your statement, I have been to all of those places.  If it were just Las Vegas locals and not the LA in-crowd, the casinos there would be populated with overweight middle-to-senior midwesterners, just like our casino in Cleveland.

 

Don't make assumptions.

 

The Casino (singular) would be greatly different than the multiple casinos in Detroit.  They are trying to create a sub industry in the city, we would just be adding an item to the overall economy.

The Casino (singular) would be greatly different than the multiple casinos in Detroit. They are trying to create a sub industry in the city, we would just be adding an item to the overall economy.

 

Supplementing the city, not the savior of the city.  That, and Gilbert, are the two reasons I love this project.

What is the tax benefit to the state, how does that compare to other states, like Illinois?

Damn, I was having problems responding to shs96's last post but mine didn't appear. I hate having to type the same message twice! My answer is that restaurants do involve a talent and do bring together ingredients to create something productive. Eating is at least as important as making steel for buildings....

 

And just because entire economies may be based on something doesn't necessarily make that activity worthwhile (see Columbia, cocaine and the 1980s, or Afghanistan and opium today). The issue is utlimately one of judgment and values. Entertainment is a valuable thing, as it provides a stress relief from work and the general labors of life. It promotes mental and physical health, and therefore enhances quality of life.

 

So the value judgment is, do you consider gambling a form of entertainment on par with movies, bowling, comedy clubs, etc.? I don't, but if that's your belief, that's cool. Does gambling's benefits exceed its costs? I don't believe it does, but I am basing this only on my personal beliefs and values about gambling vs. other forms of entertainment. To me gambling ranks down there with adult video stores, strip clubs, payday loans, cigarette vending machines, after-hours joints, etc. (basically everything the mob once controlled -- and might still!). You may disagree, but that's ultimately how this issue is going to be decided -- our personal beliefs on benefits vs. the costs of gambling. I won't campaign against casinos, but I'm not going to gamble at one any more than I'm going to play the lottery either (to which I've never initiated a bet).

 

We'll see what happens!

 

Fair enough...I suppose I think a values/merits based argument is a different argument than whether or not it has economic value, although I see how they are related.  Personally, I don't see a Casino being much different than a bar...

 

You go to a Casino to have fun and spend money and maybe get lucky...but you don't count on it.

 

The same way to go to a bar to have fun and spend money and maybe you'll "get lucky"...but you don't count on it ;)

 

 

it is easy to know when to cut off a drunk, not so much with a problem gambler.

 

I hope this specific casino sponsored vote does not pass, but that the state recognizes that it will pass eventually.  Then they put out a vote to legalize a few casino licenses, then auction them off and tax the hell out of them

our ultra conservative state is never going to do that, and voters know that... which is why this proposal will probably get voted through (it makes more sense than all the previous to go to ballot)... even though it's not nearly as good a deal as Ohioans should be getting.

After all, Dan Gilbert just wants to be the "developer" right?  Why not let him "develop" student housing, retail over at CSU?

Well, that doesn't pay quite as much.

 

Public money is not going to this project.  It's millions of dollars in private investment, so they're gonna expect a payback.  I think it's okay that they get one.

I don't understand why people care if Gilbert stands to make money.  If it is a win for the investors and a win for the city/state, whats the problem?  It only makes Gilbert want to invest more money into the city if he gets returns.

^Exactly.  It seems that there has been a movement to demonize profit since the financial crisis started last fall.  If money is made by anyone in the city of Cleveland it is probable that they will invest more money into the city to increase their profits.  Profits are not a bad thing!  They're the driving force of our economy!

 

The guy is willing to invest $500 million into the city of Cleveland and people complain because he stands to make money ("at the expense of the taxpayer"  :roll:) on that investment... give me a break.

I just get upset when people throw out "he's the greatest Clevelander ever!" type comments.  He is a business man who atands to make some money by doing business in Cleveland.  Good for him.

 

I really dont like the idea of a casino, or an indoor entertainment district, but it looks like that train has left the station

I just get upset when people throw out "he's the greatest Clevelander ever!" type comments.  He is a business man who atands to make some money by doing business in Cleveland.  Good for him.

 

 

I don't see where anyone said he's the greatest Clevelander ever.  He is a wealthy, aggressive, can-do business man, in terms of development of the type we haven't seen in this town since the heyday of the Jacobs family in the 80s and 90s -- and btw, you might want to check on his Detroit philanthropy before comparing him to an old-line family like the George Gund family who's been around for generations (as opposed the 4 years Gilbert's been on the Cleveland front by dint of his purchase of the Cavs; a team that was failing under the Gunds).

 

I don't care for gambling, either, esp what it can and does to people addiction-wise.  I also agree, it is more inward than most activities, which isn't positive.  But remember, this is Cleveland, and as nice as places like outdoor E.4th is, our populace hibernates for a large chunk of the year, anyway... and I'll debate MyTwoSense or anybody who misguidedly thinks that building on one of the greatest, high-density, rapid rail-connected, mixed use development in the country -- Tower City -- is somehow a negative thing.

 

Besides this, I've resigned myself that Cleveland might as well get with the program.  It's not just Detroit, which is in worse shape than we are:  It's Chicago, Philly, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, and others, not all of which have images of struggling (although the recent Obama/Olympics Chicago failure juxtaposed against the horrible teen murders and other serious social/infrastructure/education problems of the alleged "Capital of the Midwest" merely highlights that most all large American struggling in many ways and are looking a gambling, on some levels, as an alternative: financially, entertainment-wise, etc.) 

 

So Cleveland/Ohio needs to climb on board and develop something of a hedge to all the entertainment dollars that are flowing to our neighbors in other states.

 

I just get tired of this "silver bullet" nonsense, which is only a staw man people bring up when they don't like something.  No one project: the Rock Hall, Gateway, E. 4th ... or any other one project is going to, singularly, turn the City's fortune around... But let's get out of that negative Cleveland mentality that, for this reason, let's not have the guts to at least try something different.

vote yes and build the damn thing i want a casino close by so i can go gamble there. but the way the city of cleveland operates/northeast ohio this will just be another failed project.

 

Why? The way you tell it, nothing has ever succeeded in Cleveland/Northeast Ohio.  :roll:

 

Get out of here.

It is kind of funny that a banner ad on this site is an issue three advertisement.

I just get upset when people throw out "he's the greatest Clevelander ever!" type comments.  He is a business man who atands to make some money by doing business in Cleveland.  Good for him.

 

 

I don't see where anyone said he's the greatest Clevelander ever.  He is a wealthy, aggressive, can-do business man, in terms of development of the type we haven't seen in this town since the heyday of the Jacobs family in the 80s and 90s -- and btw, you might want to check on his Detroit philanthropy before comparing him to an old-line family like the George Gund family who's been around for generations (as opposed the 4 years Gilbert's been on the Cleveland front by dint of his purchase of the Cavs; a team that was failing under the Gunds).

 

I don't care for gambling, either, esp what it can and does to people addiction-wise.  I also agree, it is more inward than most activities, which isn't positive.  But remember, this is Cleveland, and as nice as places like outdoor E.4th is, our populace hibernates for a large chunk of the year, anyway... and I'll debate MyTwoSense or anybody who misguidedly thinks that building on one of the greatest, high-density, rapid rail-connected, mixed use development in the country -- Tower City -- is somehow a negative thing.

 

Besides this, I've resigned myself that Cleveland might as well get with the program.  It's not just Detroit, which is in worse shape than we are:  It's Chicago, Philly, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, and others, not all of which have images of struggling (although the recent Obama/Olympics Chicago failure juxtaposed against the horrible teen murders and other serious social/infrastructure/education problems of the alleged "Capital of the Midwest" merely highlights that most all large American struggling in many ways and are looking a gambling, on some levels, as an alternative: financially, entertainment-wise, etc.) 

 

So Cleveland/Ohio needs to climb on board and develop something of a hedge to all the entertainment dollars that are flowing to our neighbors in other states.

 

I just get tired of this "silver bullet" nonsense, which is only a staw man people bring up when they don't like something.  No one project: the Rock Hall, Gateway, E. 4th ... or any other one project is going to, singularly, turn the City's fortune around... But let's get out of that negative Cleveland mentality that, for this reason, let's not have the guts to at least try something different.

Before trying to let me have it, maybe you should review some of my previous post on this very subject IN this very thread.  I think TC is the perfect place for a Casino as long as their is a high quality hotel linked.  All the things that the Ratner wanted to do with the convention center could be executive with a Casino.  He wanted to trap people inside the convention center and mall.  This is the perfect type of project for something like that. 

 

People could gamble, stay at a hip hotel (which would compliment the two already attached to TC) and shop.

 

Where in the hell are you reading or seeing HERE where any poster thinks this is a silver bullet project???  The people on this board are well aware that no single project is a "silver bullet", but an addition to a changing industry landscape.

 

Sometimes I think you type just to see your words on the screen.

It is kind of funny that a banner ad on this site is an issue three advertisement.

Ad?  What ad?  I don't see any ads! HA!  ;)  Get some red stars and you wont see any ad! :wink2:

This constitutional amendment says that the ONLY place in Cleveland that a casino could be built is on Forest City's property !!!!!!!

 

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/elections/IssueProcBallotBd/BallotBoard.aspx

 

 

Holy crap, they are trying to pull another one on us.

This constitutional amendment says that the ONLY place in Cleveland that a casino could be built is on Forest City's property !!!!!!!

 

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/elections/IssueProcBallotBd/BallotBoard.aspx

 

 

Holy crap, they are trying to pull another one on us.

 

It's one of the most logical places in Cleveland to put it.

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload/ballotboard/2009/3-final_language.pdf

 

This is the version we'll actually be voting on.  The Ballot Board isn't just there to look pretty.

This constitutional amendment says that the ONLY place in Cleveland that a casino could be built is on Forest City's property !!!!!!!

 

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/elections/IssueProcBallotBd/BallotBoard.aspx

 

 

Holy crap, they are trying to pull another one on us.

 

It's one of the most logical places in Cleveland to put it.

 

I agree... it in my opinion would be the BEST place to put a casino in this town. 

I don't see where Gilbert would be the only one allowed to operate a casino.

I don't see where the designated sites are listed either.  There is obviously more to it than the text on the ballot.

^Read the full text of the Amendment.  It's not long (about 10 pages) and pretty clearly defines the sites and operators as well I believe.

 

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload/ballotboard/2009/3-text.pdf

 

They can't put all the information on the ballot... it's just not possible.  Do the voters need to know exactly where each of the casinos will be located?  Apparently the ballot board didn't think it was vital information that the voter will use to help make a yes or no decision.  It's also a lot of text because they reference each location as a tax parcel.  If you look at the proposed amendment about 3/4 of a page is dedicated to the casino locations.

 

There is also an expectation that the voter do his or her homework before voting on something.  When you vote for a President they don't list each candidates position on key issues on the ballot.  There is an expectation that the voter be informed enough to make a choice or that person should abstain from voting on that issue.

Dear MyTwoSense & OldManLadyluck,

 

I don't understand how that site is logical. 

 

The site is totally isolated.  Its removed from Downtown by topography and physical developments.  The patrons will most likely NOT walk to other Downtown sites such as 4th Street or Playhouse Square or the Warehouse District.  Heck, its even a really long walk to get to the Flats East Bank. 

 

A casino should be connected to Downtown, in the heart of Downtown, or in a easily accessible waterfront site.  The best Downtown site would be the empty parking lots on West 36th and Superior.  The best water sites would either be adjacent to the Flats East Bank or near the Rock Hall.  A casino on the backass side of Tower City or in the Scranton Peninsula area would be totally disjointed and removed from the incremental development that has been growing Downtown over the past 15 years. 

 

Also, a constitutional amendment should not benefit only 1 group (Forest City).  I was for this issue until I discovered that it's another backroom deal to benefit Forest City only.

A public law shouldn't be written to specifically benefit, by name, a private interest. I would be in favor of this issue if it were open to a normal, open, and transparent public bidding process, with the "highest and most responsible" bidder(s) winning the casinos for a period of time (5 years, 10 years, 15 years etc), and have first crack at the renewal of their license unless they have proven to be irresponsible based on police activity, complaints, financial misdeeds, and related bad acts.

 

Otherwise where are the checks and balances??

Dear MyTwoSense & OldManLadyluck,

 

I don't understand how that site is logical. 

 

The site is totally isolated.  Its removed from Downtown by topography and physical developments.  The patrons will most likely NOT walk to other Downtown sites such as 4th Street or Playhouse Square or the Warehouse District.  Heck, its even a really long walk to get to the Flats East Bank. 

 

A casino should be connected to Downtown, in the heart of Downtown, or in a easily accessible waterfront site.  The best Downtown site would be the empty parking lots on West 36th and Superior.  The best water sites would either be adjacent to the Flats East Bank or near the Rock Hall.   A casino on the backass side of Tower City or in the Scranton Peninsula area would be totally disjointed and removed from the incremental development that has been growing Downtown over the past 15 years. 

 

Also, a constitutional amendment should not benefit only 1 group (Forest City).  I was for this issue until I discovered that it's another backroom deal to benefit Forest City only.

 

The site is not removed from downtown.  A site near the Rock Hall or near the Flats East Bank would be MUCH more removed from downtown than the location behind Tower City.  This location is 2 BLOCKS from Public Square!  Not only that, but it is directly adjacent to the Q, Progressive Field, and all of the restaurants in Tower City and it is within very short walking distance to both East 4th and West 6th.  Pull up Google Maps and check out the distances for yourself.  If it is built with the main entrance at street level than it will effectively extend our downtown core all the way North South to the River.  This development coupled with wide sidewalks and traffic calming features (crosswalks, stop lights, etc...) will make Huron Rd. MUCH more pedestrian friendly.  If this casino were developed downward toward the River it could even lead to some development along Canal Rd.  That might be a bit of a stretch but I don't think it's out of the question.

 

You mentioned the parking lots on Superior between W6th and Public Square.  Do you really want a casino on that lot?  Leave this easy developable land for the offices, apartments, retail and restaurants that are currently proposed for those sites.  Use the more difficult terrain for the casino.  They'll develop it because they know they can still make money on it and it could lead to an interesting design.  I like to design possibilities on the TC site much more than any other flat parcel.

 

I'm pretty sick of the Forest City hating too.  I understand there are valid reasons to not trust them, but for God's sake every other city has a predetermined site and I don't here anyone complaining about those!  Just because Forest City HAPPENS to own what is the most logical casino site should not be reason enough to vote against Issue 3.