My comments weren't about hating Forest City. They were about problems associated with writing specific property owner(s) into the law. I haven't read the proposed amendment in detail. Does it say anything about what happens if the land is ever sold or otherwise transferred to another user? Or the land is condemned (or disappears) for natural or manmade reasons? Or the property owner is found to be in such violation of the law that a casino can no longer be legally operated?

 

This is why public bidding with contractual terms, including duration of contract plus ways out for either party in the event of unforeseen complications are so important. Are their "ways out" in this amendment?

^Your points are well taken and I wasn't referring to you in my Forest City comments.  I've read the bill and I just scanned it again and I don't see any "ways out" as you put it.  I'm not very familiar with state constitutional amendments so I'm not sure what the state would do should one of these operators run the casino into the ground. 

 

There are always a million reasons NOT to vote for something, but this Issue has a lot of very important reasons to vote FOR it.

Dear MyTwoSense & OldManLadyluck,

 

I don't understand how that site is logical. 

 

The site is totally isolated.  Its removed from Downtown by topography and physical developments.  The patrons will most likely NOT walk to other Downtown sites such as 4th Street or Playhouse Square or the Warehouse District.  Heck, its even a really long walk to get to the Flats East Bank. 

 

A casino should be connected to Downtown, in the heart of Downtown, or in a easily accessible waterfront site.  The best Downtown site would be the empty parking lots on West 36th and Superior.  The best water sites would either be adjacent to the Flats East Bank or near the Rock Hall.  A casino on the backass side of Tower City or in the Scranton Peninsula area would be totally disjointed and removed from the incremental development that has been growing Downtown over the past 15 years. 

 

Also, a constitutional amendment should not benefit only 1 group (Forest City).  I was for this issue until I discovered that it's another backroom deal to benefit Forest City only.

 

The site is not removed from downtown.  A site near the Rock Hall or near the Flats East Bank would be MUCH more removed from downtown than the location behind Tower City.  This location is 2 BLOCKS from Public Square!  Not only that, but it is directly adjacent to the Q, Progressive Field, and all of the restaurants in Tower City and it is within very short walking distance to both East 4th and West 6th.  Pull up Google Maps and check out the distances for yourself.  If it is built with the main entrance at street level than it will effectively extend our downtown core all the way North to the River.  This development coupled with wide sidewalks and traffic calming features (crosswalks, stop lights, etc...) will make Huron Rd. MUCH more pedestrian friendly.  If this casino were developed downward toward the River it could even lead to some development along Canal Rd.  That might be a bit of a stretch but I don't think it's out of the question.

 

You mentioned the parking lots on Superior between W6th and Public Square.  Do you really want a casino on that lot?  Leave this easy developable land for the offices, apartments, retail and restaurants that are currently proposed for those sites.  Use the more difficult terrain for the casino.  They'll develop it because they know they can still make money on it and it could lead to an interesting design.  I like to design possibilities on the TC site much more than any other flat parcel.

 

I'm pretty sick of the Forest City hating too.  I understand there are valid reasons to not trust them, but for God's sake every other city has a predetermined site and I don't here anyone complaining about those!  Just because Forest City HAPPENS to own what is the most logical casino site should not be reason enough to vote against Issue 3.

 

Well said, Hootenany...I think the location is a perfect balance: it's close and connected to the key areas of interest, downtown, while yet, it is sort of 'BEHIND (read: out of site" of the core area).  Maybe that's just the way I view gambling for Cleveland... I too would not wish to see a giant casino in an open, people place like the Historic Warehouse District.

Dear MyTwoSense & OldManLadyluck,

 

I don't understand how that site is logical. 

 

The site is totally isolated.  Its removed from Downtown by topography and physical developments.  The patrons will most likely NOT walk to other Downtown sites such as 4th Street or Playhouse Square or the Warehouse District.  Heck, its even a really long walk to get to the Flats East Bank. 

 

A casino should be connected to Downtown, in the heart of Downtown, or in a easily accessible waterfront site.  The best Downtown site would be the empty parking lots on West 36th and Superior.  The best water sites would either be adjacent to the Flats East Bank or near the Rock Hall.  A casino on the backass side of Tower City or in the Scranton Peninsula area would be totally disjointed and removed from the incremental development that has been growing Downtown over the past 15 years. 

 

Also, a constitutional amendment should not benefit only 1 group (Forest City).  I was for this issue until I discovered that it's another backroom deal to benefit Forest City only.

 

The site is not removed from downtown.  A site near the Rock Hall or near the Flats East Bank would be MUCH more removed from downtown than the location behind Tower City.  This location is 2 BLOCKS from Public Square!  Not only that, but it is directly adjacent to the Q, Progressive Field, and all of the restaurants in Tower City and it is within very short walking distance to both East 4th and West 6th.  Pull up Google Maps and check out the distances for yourself.  If it is built with the main entrance at street level than it will effectively extend our downtown core all the way North to the River.  This development coupled with wide sidewalks and traffic calming features (crosswalks, stop lights, etc...) will make Huron Rd. MUCH more pedestrian friendly.  If this casino were developed downward toward the River it could even lead to some development along Canal Rd. That might be a bit of a stretch but I don't think it's out of the question.

 

You mentioned the parking lots on Superior between W6th and Public Square.  Do you really want a casino on that lot?  Leave this easy developable land for the offices, apartments, retail and restaurants that are currently proposed for those sites.  Use the more difficult terrain for the casino.  They'll develop it because they know they can still make money on it and it could lead to an interesting design.  I like to design possibilities on the TC site much more than any other flat parcel.

 

I'm pretty sick of the Forest City hating too.  I understand there are valid reasons to not trust them, but for God's sake every other city has a predetermined site and I don't here anyone complaining about those!  Just because Forest City HAPPENS to own what is the most logical casino site should not be reason enough to vote against Issue 3.

 

 

My thoughts exactly.  With this site, we will truly have a clustering of entertainment options within downtown, which I believe will be uniquely Cleveland.  Before or after leaving the casino, a person would have the choice of going to Tower City to shop or watch a movie, go to a Cavs game since Tower City is connected to the Q, go to an Indians game, visit East 4th, visit the Warehouse District, visit Gateway, visit Playhouse Square via the Healthline (or taxi), visit the Powerhouse, while in the future, visit some of the retail options being planned along Euclid, visit the East Bank via the Waterfront Line, go to a Browns game, visit the Rock Hall, etc.  Though Tower City currently ties these entertainment options together, these connections will be made even stronger with the addition of a casino, which will only add to the many entertainment options available downtown.  What will matter is if the city will be able to market itself as a true entertainment destination.  If the city is able to do so, I believe that much of downtown will benefit.

no thanks

 

they need to stop with this stupid casino shit. how many times have they tried to pass this issue with it getting defeated? i PRAY it never passes.

 

 

dan gilbert is a loser

no thanks

 

they need to stop with this stupid casino sh!t. how many times have they tried to pass this issue with it getting defeated? i PRAY it never passes.

 

 

dan gilbert is a loser

 

....and what is your proposal??  Oh, thats right, you don't have one.

Your calling a man that has build a fortune 500 company and a successful NBA franchise a loser.Who's the loser really if you don't gamble don't go

^AGREED!  If this thing doesn't pass, I hope the do gooders that CLAIM casinos prey on the poor (have never seen a casino full of poor people...but whatever) go for a ballot issue that will actually go after gambling that actually DOES affect the poor.  The state should ban scratch off lotto, mega millions, any other lotto, night at the races events, church casino nights, bingo, and all other gambling!  While they are at it, make Ohio a dry state...I am sure booze has cause more social problems than gambling (drinking and driving).  Casinos aren't the "answer"...but it WOULD keep money IN the state.  There needs to be an answer, but unfortunately, I don't see high tech jobs beating down the door to get into this state.  And please, the Detroit to Cleveland comparison...Detroit was in MUCH worse shape as a city long before casinos. 

no thanks

 

they need to stop with this stupid casino sh!t. how many times have they tried to pass this issue with it getting defeated? i PRAY it never passes.

 

 

dan gilbert is a loser

 

Why do you pray it never passes?  What is your objection to it?  You do realize this is a different proposal than the previous attempts, right?  If you have a moral objection to it then that's all fine and good, but some explanation to your hatred of this "stupid casino sh!t" would be nice.

I'd be all for banning the Lotto.  That's a regressive revenue source if ever one was invented.

no thanks

 

they need to stop with this stupid casino sh!t. how many times have they tried to pass this issue with it getting defeated? i PRAY it never passes.

 

 

dan gilbert is a loser

 

Wow, what an intelligent comment.  :roll: cleveland.com disease must be spreading.

It doesn't say much for CTown!  I'm sure that can't stand for Cleveland, I know that's not their finest!

Gambling should be legal.  I am under the impression that laws are created to stop people from infringing on other peoples rights.  How does a ban on gambling protect other people? 

I cast my absentee ballot today.  One vote FOR issue 3 is in.

Please focus your comments in this thread on the project, site, developer, etc.

 

I'm as guilty as anyone of violating that here, as I didn't know there was another thread where Issue 3 could be debated. Here's where that discussion can be found:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,20859.0.html

Well here we go:

 

Bars, bowling alleys repeat their claim: Ohio's Issue 3 casino plan dooms local businesses

 

By Jim Nichols, The Plain Dealer

October 13, 2009, 11:53AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Booze and bowling businesses and other parts of the hospitality industry around Greater Cleveland will suffer, and some will close, if voters approve Issue 3 to allow casinos in Ohio, several lobbying groups reiterated today.

 

More at cleveland.com:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/10/bars_bowling_alleys_repeat_the.html

^Yeah, because bowling has everything to do with gambling... if you're a bowler, you have two choices when it's time to go out:  Either go to the bowling alley, or the casino.  Same for bars- you're not allowed to frequent both... if you want to go to the bar, then dammit, it has to be JUST the bar.  Casinos aren't allowed.

^Yeah, because bowling has everything to do with gambling... if you're a bowler, you have two choices when it's time to go out: Either go to the bowling alley, or the casino. Same for bars- you're not allowed to frequent both... if you want to go to the bar, then dammit, it has to be JUST the bar. Casinos aren't allowed.

 

I don't think it's really a good argument to vote down Issue 3, but it is true that it will most likely adversely affect these other establishments.  Unless we see a huge influx of tourism (which I don't see happening since casinos are much more common now than they used to be) we will simply see a thinning of the money being spent.  Of course you can go to the casino sometimes and the bar others, but you won't be able to afford to go to the bar as often as you used to if you're blowing money at the casino some nights.

 

Again, although I agree with the factuality of the claim, I don't see this as a good argument for being against the issue.  There are many other more valid reasons to be for or against it.

 

Also, is Dan Gilbert going to build the sunset in that picture along with the casino?

I would agree with the people who say it will take customers away from already established venues downtown, except for the fact that the new convention center will easily replace all of those people.

I would agree with the people who say it will take customers away from already established venues downtown, except for the fact that the new convention center will easily replace all of those people.

 

People always seem to forget to include that demographic in the equation.  Its a built in reason for lots of external people to be in Cleveland.  If anything, having a casino will help bring more conventions to Cleveland.  Its another item on the checklist of Cleveland's amenities.

Wouldn't a casino attract people from areas as far away as Ashland and Mansfield?  I doubt these people from 50+ miles away are keeping the downtown entertainment venues open now.  I think a casino will attract NEW people to downtown, and I'm sure people that already enjoy going downtown will continue to do so.

^maybe, but a significant number of people who go downtown now will be spending their money at the casino, rather than the placed they used to frequent.

 

there is validity to the argument, but like I said earlier, the addition of the convention center will more than offset the loss. Especially since the CC did not go to Tower City

^I agree to an extent, because the addition of a casino will likely draw people to downtown who haven't been downtown for anything for a very, very long time.  For instance, the senior citizens who get on buses to go to Detroit and gamble there.  I mean sure, they will still get on the bus at one point or another, but now some of those dollars will benefit the state.

You'd be amazed how many little old ladies won't drive into the city for entertainment (shows, bars etc.), but will head over to PA to go gamble.  I'm describing my mother and virtually all of her retired old lady friends.  Of course as soon as somebody gets shot or stabbed near the casino they'll start going to PA again, but we'll have the opportunity for their dollars for a little while.

You'd be amazed how many little old ladies won't drive into the city for entertainment (shows, bars etc.), but will head over to PA to go gamble.  I'm describing my mother and virtually all of her retired old lady friends.  Of course as soon as somebody gets shot or stabbed near the casino they'll start going to PA again, but we'll have the opportunity for their dollars for a little while.

 

Why are you being such a Negative Nancy? 

Wouldn't a casino attract people from areas as far away as Ashland and Mansfield? I doubt these people from 50+ miles away are keeping the downtown entertainment venues open now. I think a casino will attract NEW people to downtown, and I'm sure people that already enjoy going downtown will continue to do so.

 

Perhaps, but at this point it's all a judgement call.  As usual, the only studies done are commissioned by the "pro" and "con" factions, so the results are predetermined and untrustworthy.  I personally doubt that it will benefit our recreational industry overall.  Others can say it will.  At the end of the day, I'm sure we'll all leave with the same opinions we came with.  Nothing new has been said in this thread since page 1.

How do bars, restaraunts, clubs, etc. (that are not connected to casinos) fare in Vegas?  My opinion would be that if they can survive there, then they will survive here. 

 

There is always some take-away when a new entertainment venue opens - i.e. the WHD took business away from the East Bank of the Flats.

 

I, for one, will check out the Casino if/when it opens, but I highly doubt it will stop the wifey and I from frequenting E. 4th or PHS.... nor will it stop my (every so often) "Dudes' Night Out" ventures from storming the WHD or Shooters.

How do bars, restaraunts, clubs, etc. (that are not connected to casinos) fare in Vegas?  My opinion would be that if they can survive there, then they will survive here. 

 

There is always some take-away when a new entertainment venue opens - i.e. the WHD took business away from the East Bank of the Flats.

 

I, for one, will check out the Casino if/when it opens, but I highly doubt it will stop the wifey and I from frequenting E. 4th or PHS.... nor will it stop my (every so often) "Dudes' Night Out" ventures from storming the WHD or Shooters.

 

Hts44121 I agree and to answer your question:

Vegas is like anywhere else, good restaurants, bars and clubs thrive and the bad ones fail. There is no question that the novelty of a casino will at first drain off some entertainment dollars from other districts but after that novelty wears off it will simply become another entertainment option. If you're in the mood for good sushi and the best sushi place in town is not in the casino then my guess is your not going to the casino for dinner.

Why are you being such a Negative Nancy?

 

Crime is everywhere, but in the mind of the suburbanite a murder near the casino is not the same as the murder a mile or two down the street.  The town my mother and her friends live in has been on the front page of the PD for murders, assaults etc over the year, but it doesn't register to them.  I realize now that it looks very negative nancy, but what I mean is that crime is going to happen regardless.  But the eventual crime that is going to happen near the casino or somehow related to the casino is going to scare them off, even if the murder suicide a few streets down in suburbia hasn't.

about the "drain" issue.  Wasn't there talk when East Fourth came online?  Has East 4th hurt downtown or cannibalized WHD, Tremont or Ohio City?  NO

 

It strengthened the downtown core.

Just tell me when this can actually happen and when realistically construction start.

about the "drain" issue.  Wasn't there talk when East Fourth came online?  Has East 4th hurt downtown or cannibalized WHD, Tremont or Ohio City?  NO

 

It strengthened the downtown core.

 

Actually I realize that this has been debated quite a bit, but last time I was in town and in the Warehouse district visiting some friends/bartenders etc., each one said that there is no doubt in their minds that E. 4th has drained business from the Warehouse district. 

 

At the same time, I dont see most of these people being regulars at a casino. 

no thanks

 

they need to stop with this stupid casino sh!t. how many times have they tried to pass this issue with it getting defeated? i PRAY it never passes.

 

 

dan gilbert is a loser

 

....and what is your proposal??  Oh, thats right, you don't have one.

 

my proposal is never to build a casino in cleveland  :-D

 

 

LOL@wanting a casino here

no thanks

 

they need to stop with this stupid casino sh!t. how many times have they tried to pass this issue with it getting defeated? i PRAY it never passes.

 

 

dan gilbert is a loser

 

....and what is your proposal??  Oh, thats right, you don't have one.

 

my proposal is never to build a casino in cleveland  ;D

 

 

LOL@wanting a casino here

Child boo!  You just an angry hatin' hot mess.  Nothing pleases you.

The crowd that caters to the establishments along E 4th and the Warehouse District along with Ohio City and Tremont do not fit the demographic that Casino owners and operators are going after.  Those people will continure to regularlly go to the same places with an occassional visit to the Casino.  Casino's attract a completely different demographic of people on a REGULAR BASIS and then those of which cater to pricey bars and restaurants.  People who go to clubs, restaurants and bars  want to go to those places so they can eat, get tipsy, dance and talk.  They will continue to do so when a Casino opens. 

^ Right on

The crowd that caters to the establishments along E 4th and the Warehouse District along with Ohio City and Tremont do not fit the demographic that Casino owners and operators are going after.  Those people will continure to regularlly go to the same places with an occassional visit to the Casino.  Casino's attract a completely different demographic of people on a REGULAR BASIS and then those of which cater to pricey bars and restaurants.  People who go to clubs, restaurants and bars  want to go to those places so they can eat, get tipsy, dance and talk.  They will continue to do so when a Casino opens. 

 

I agree with this completely.  Go to E4th and it's a little different crowd than W6th.  And I think we all have experience with the large volume of people who are ignorant to what life is like in downtown Cleveland and something like a Casino may draw them in...and suddenly they realize "hey, it's not that bad down here" and start branching out.

I don't think it's really a good argument to vote down Issue 3, but it is true that it will most likely adversely affect these other establishments.

 

But the same argument could (and has) been made about East 4th Street - is it really bringing in new people to eat in the city, or just shifting diners from the Warehouse District, Ohio City and Tremont?

 

I believe that with East 4th (and the casino) all ships rise with the tide.  Get more people downtown and you're giving those restaurants more opportunities to grab new diners.  If they fail to do so, hey, that's capitalism. 

 

This latest round of complaints about the casino was brought on by a lobbying group that wants ALL restaurants and bars (and bowling alleys) to be able to bring in slot machines.  I find it strange they chose to hold their event at D'Vine -- as if D'Vine would shove a bunch of slot machines in there if they were given the chance.

If they fail to do so, hey, that's capitalism. 

 

100% correct.  And the key is money that is NOT spent in Cleveland will now be spent IN Cleveland.  That is how a city grows until it can support itself. 

its a simple issue.. a wise man once told me "if i decide to open a restaurant, another one will have to close. if i open three, two will close. this is business." as long as the city of cleveland, and the metro area for that matter, is not GROWing.. then that is a valid ethical statement.

When I go to niagra falls to gamble, I never eat at the casino.  I enjoy walking around and getting out of the place for a few hours.  I assume most people are like me.  Who wouldn't want to see what the city has to offer while they are there?  A person who wouldn't be downtown unless there was a casino, that's who.

When I go to niagra falls to gamble, I never eat at the casino.  I enjoy walking around and getting out of the place for a few hours.  I assume most people are like me.  Who wouldn't want to see what the city has to offer while they are there?  A person who wouldn't be downtown unless there was a casino, that's who.

 

Ding...Ding...Ding!  No more calls, we have a winner!

A genuine question, not intended to be snarky, but do people actually plan vacations just to gamble?

I know in Las Vegas it is a big part of it, but its the whole sin city aspect of it as well draws people.

 

I think in this case I would believe anecdotal evidence than either pro/con gambling studies.

Maybe not vacations, but day trips.  Also, it may on the checklist for vacation destinations.  It may not be a focal point in the vacation plans, but it probably would encourage.

The fathers start to think about playing a little blackjack or craps while the wife and kids are at the R&R HOF!

^or the other way around

its a simple issue.. a wise man once told me "if i decide to open a restaurant, another one will have to close. if i open three, two will close. this is business." as long as the city of cleveland, and the metro area for that matter, is not GROWing.. then that is a valid ethical statement.

 

Exactly.  And that's what the people that work in the establishments in the Warehouse district will tell you.  Since the flats are no longer a regional/national draw (bringing in people from outside the area), there is an extent of just shifting people around from a "set" stagnant population (which is still frankly moving farther out). 

Although this is where things like Cleveland food scene recogniton and people like Michael Simon have added people from outside the region to this population. 

 

Also, this is where, the Med Mart and new Convention center are important to pump new people into this population of patrons. 

Plus, a casino will certainly bring in people that would not typically come downtown. 

 

As far as dining,  aren't casino's known for their almost free meals for the gamblers? 

^Not anymore.  Most restaurants in a casino on the vegas strip are very high end and even the food court options can be fairly expensive.  Dinner buffets cost $25 - $30.  The MGM in Detroit is mostly high end, the Greektown has a lot more less expensive food, but its not like their giving it away.  Its really only the older vegas casino's that still have the $3.99 steak dinner.

^Not anymore.  Most restaurants in a casino on the vegas strip are very high end and even the food court options can be fairly expensive.  Dinner buffets cost $25 - $30.  The MGM in Detroit is mostly high end, the Greektown has a lot more less expensive food, but its not like their giving it away.  Its really only the older vegas casino's that still have the $3.99 steak dinner.

 

 

Where are you dining in Vegas?  Also, what do you consider "expensive"?

^Not anymore. Most restaurants in a casino on the vegas strip are very high end and even the food court options can be fairly expensive. Dinner buffets cost $25 - $30. The MGM in Detroit is mostly high end, the Greektown has a lot more less expensive food, but its not like their giving it away. Its really only the older vegas casino's that still have the $3.99 steak dinner.

 

Cleveland isn't the Vegas Strip, though.  Vegas has switched its focus from trying to bring in middle class folk with cheap accommodations and food to gouging expense card wielding conventioneers.  I'm not sure Detroit is really comparable, either.  They were trying to make themselves a gambling destination.  I don't see that as really what we're trying to accomplish here-there's too much competition in every direction.  Instead I think they're looking to catch locals on a night out.  Deeply discounted food and entertainment makes a lot of sense for them, and I think that's what we'll get in the end.

^Not anymore.  Most restaurants in a casino on the Vegas strip are very high end and even the food court options can be fairly expensive.  Dinner buffets cost $25 - $30.  The MGM in Detroit is mostly high end, the Greektown has a lot more less expensive food, but its not like their giving it away.  Its really only the older Vegas casino's that still have the $3.99 steak dinner.

 

Cleveland isn't the Vegas Strip, though.  Vegas has switched its focus from trying to bring in middle class folk with cheap accommodations and food to gouging expense card wielding conventioneers.  I'm not sure Detroit is really comparable, either.  They were trying to make themselves a gambling destination.  I don't see that as really what we're trying to accomplish here-there's too much competition in every direction.  Instead I think they're looking to catch locals on a night out.  Deeply discounted food and entertainment makes a lot of sense for them, and I think that's what we'll get in the end.

 

And Vegas is switching again, since business travel is way down and expected slip further.

 

Detroit will never be a "destination" for gambling, if Reno, AC and Mobile are hurting.