This will not be approved by the National Park Service.  I can already tell you that.

 

They may still want to do, but its a matter of whether they want to forgo that tax credits.  Cimpermans comments here are so predictable....  He's such a jellyfish.. 

I got hooked. My post on the article:

The vitality of a city is directly dependent on people walking on the street. Take that away and you have a cold, isolated, empty shell -- basically what Cleveland was before all the recent development. Hell, look how busy Tilted Kilt is; and Jake's, and the street vendors. An Indian restaurant and Subway are opening on Ontario right across the street from the casino. Plus several others on Euclid closer to E4th.

 

Skywalks destroy street presence and should be avoided downtown. And that goes for the proposed one at the Westin too. Most cities realize how important it is to actually have people walking around. Some are actually tearing them down -- see Cincinnati and Baltimore. Others passed resolutions limiting or banning new skywalk construction.

 

The planners in Cleveland have no spine. They know it's bad for the city. Yet, go along with it because they are worried it'll hurt the taxes coming in from the casino. And the posters here are even worse. They don't work, live, or pay taxes in the city and have no vested interest either way. There IS actually a PROPER way to do urban planning, and it doesn't involve skywalks. Even with crappy weather. The improvement in city life in the decent weather months is more than worth the inconvenience during the three months it's miserable. And by “worth” I mean, the general economic impact outweighs the inconvenience.

 

I agree with Cimperman on this one, but I also agree that it's probably not going to happen. 

 

Life on the streets is caused by open businesses for people to patronize.  That is true with or without skywalks.  Forcing people onto barren streets in the winter solves nothing.  I've seen downtowns that feature skywalks (Cin, Minn) and they don't appear to have suffered one bit.  Most locals seem to appreciate them and feel that they enhance the downtown experience.  Sounds like Cleveland will have to do without them, so I would focus on getting businesses open along the prescribed sidewalk route.  Otherwise we're putting people out in the snow for its own sake.

Cincinnati has been slowly dismantling their skywalks over the last decade. Their urban revitalization has been just as aggressive as Cleveland.

 

And the area around the casino is not barren precisely because of the people walking the street. It's called providing an audience. Who is going to open anything along that area if 50% of the casino patrons never set foot on the street? That's completely backwards.

 

Moreover the distance between the garage and casino is miniscule. They would walk farther from their car to a department store out in the burbs.

This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

If the people from the burbs just want their easy parking and comfy walk to the Casino then give it to them.  Otherwise they are not going to come to our city and lose their money.

 

 

 

They'll still come.  Do we really think they'll drive 2 hours to Toledo or Columbus to not have to cross a street?

Why not park at tower city?

This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

 

Nation's first downtown casino?  What about Detroit, New Orleans, St Louis etc....?

This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

Yes let's improve their downtown experience by making it so they don't actually have to set foot anywhere downtown. From the parking garage, to the casino, and right back to the garage.

 

People have told me how surprised they were to see so many people out and about. A bustling city builds buzz. It builds momentum. Getting them off the street is the worst idea i've heard yet. And no that area is not barren. You don't need 10 storefronts along the way. There are numerous restaurants on the block around the higbee building.

They'll still come.  Do we really think they'll drive 2 hours to Toledo or Columbus to not have to cross a street?

 

I think I have read a ton of comments from cleve.com posters who represent a certain demographic from the suburbs that love to complain about lack of free parking downtown and I do not think these are isolated incidents.  (I do not have a marketing study citation to insert here.)

 

So yeah, I think they will still come but I think more that may not come will come if they are made more comfortable by staying in their bubble.

 

That being said, this cake and eat it thing with tax credits vs. zoning that invalidates it is a crock.

 

 

This is a totally no-win subject. I'm betting 90% of UO members wouldn't support a skywalk and 90% of the average Joes out there in the world would.

^^I wouldn't base anything off of Cleveland.com comments.  UO may attract a skewed demo of urban enthusiasts, but cleveland.com attracts a skewed demo of neanderthals.

This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

 

Nation's first downtown casino?  What about Detroit, New Orleans, St Louis etc....?

 

You're right, I should have said first on a downtown's central square. 

 

Point is that downtown doesn't need casino patrons to be herded along certain paths. Good development will attract people on its own merits, like East 4th Street.  No one is forced to walk down that street but they do anyway.  And even if the path between the garage and the casino contained storefronts, marching people past them isn't likely to get them filled.  They can't spend money on nothing.  But putting businesses into those storefronts is likely to get people to walk by willingly.  The casino gets people to come downtown who otherwise might not.  From that point, what they do depends on the options they're presented.

Horseshoe Casino raises game stakes with 24 more tables

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- From the moment the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland opened five months ago, management was impressed by the strong demand for table games.

 

So if it's more table games you want, more table games you'll get.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/11/horseshoe_casino_raises_game_s.html

 

 

 

 

They'll still come.  Do we really think they'll drive 2 hours to Toledo or Columbus to not have to cross a street?

 

I think I have read a ton of comments from cleve.com posters who represent a certain demographic from the suburbs that love to complain about lack of free parking downtown and I do not think these are isolated incidents.  (I do not have a marketing study citation to insert here.)

 

So yeah, I think they will still come but I think more that may not come will come if they are made more comfortable by staying in their bubble.

 

Well these are the ones that will be going to the racetracks as soon as the slots open there.  It may very well be closer to their home anyway.    Downtown will maintain the only place for table games in the metro at least, but liklely thats not the demographic complaining about parking.   

If the appeal to the NPS is rejected, is the amount of money that FCM would have to be reimbursed for the loss of the historic credit significant in relation to Casino operations?  Also, when does the limitation expire, such that no loss to FCM would occur?  Does the loss decrease linearly until the expiration date?

For those who are against the skywalk, there is a petition created -- please sign!

 

http://theciviccommons.com/conversations/discussing-the-cleveland-horshoe-casino-s-proposed-skywalk/actions#opportunity-nav

Thank you! I'm never up on those!!

For those who are against the skywalk, there is a petition created -- please sign!

 

http://theciviccommons.com/conversations/discussing-the-cleveland-horshoe-casino-s-proposed-skywalk/actions#opportunity-nav

 

Signed.

This will not be approved by the National Park Service.  I can already tell you that.

 

They may still want to do, but its a matter of whether they want to forgo that tax credits.  Cimpermans comments here are so predictable....  He's such a jellyfish.. 

 

I often dont agree with Roldo, but he is right on here regarding the proposed pedestrian bridge and Cimperman (as well as the other poster).  As I was saying I would be ok if Cimperman had some sound reasoning behind supporting it, but as usual....  Well his response is just predictable. 

 

"Long-time Councilman Joe Cimperman’s quote in the Plain Dealer supporting bridges over streets that debase historic buildings downtown is a model of deceit. Then Joe always was putty in the hands of downtown developers. Joe is so self-serving. Don’t think he can even recognize it anymore. Sad."

http://www.coolcleveland.com/blog/2012/11/roldo-joe-cimperman-the-lies-some-pols-tell/

 

Signed.

Or they could just take the casino bus. Wow, I totally missed this when it was announced last month!

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/horshoe-casino-cleveland-to-offer-bus-service-tofrom-10-northeast-ohio-cities

 

http://www.horseshoecleveland.com/casinos/horseshoe-cleveland/casino-misc/horseshoe-cleveland-bus-program-detail.html

Why couldn't RTA offer the same deal as LakefrontLines. Customers could be offered to purchase a special $10 Casino RapidPass

on-line that would be good for a round trip to and from the casino while receiving $15 in free slot play when you get there. Or maybe they could run specific CasinoCars on the weekends from various RTA stations. Would customers be interested in taking the rapid downtown and receiving a benefit of free slot play when they get there. Something to think about. Although I'm sure there must be some federal regulation that would prohibit RTA from being involved.

But check out the links below as other communities have tried and usually failed in there efforts to do something similar.

 

http://www.casinogamblingweb.com/gambling-news/casino-gambling/aces_casino_train_system_from_new_york_to_atlantic_city_finished_57727.html

 

http://www.massinc.org/INCSpot/Riding-the-casino-train.aspx

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/10/nyregion/casinos-end-atlantic-city-train-service.html

 

 

 

Something strange went on in this thread since last night.  :x >:D

Never noticed the horses

I just noticed them the other day. Not sure how I feel about those.....

Just for Christmas I thought.

OnNov. 25, freethink posted a question about casinos. I must have missed it at the time, but now I can answer it.

 

He asked:

 

<<Why couldn't RTA offer the same deal as LakefrontLines. Customers could be offered to purchase a special $10 Casino RapidPass

on-line that would be good for a round trip to and from the casino while receiving $15 in free slot play when you get there. Or maybe they could run specific CasinoCars on the weekends from various RTA stations. Would customers be interested in taking the rapid downtown and receiving a benefit of free slot play when they get there. Something to think about. Although I'm sure there must be some federal regulation that would prohibit RTA from being involved.>>

 

Answer:

 

As you may have noticed in recent years, RTA no longer operates special bus service from Park-N-Ride lots to Tribe games and Browns games. The federal government, which gives us 80 percent of the funding needed to buy new buses, has declared this kind of service to be a "charter", and gives us an unfair advantage over private carriers, like Lakefront Lines. If RTA were to violate the charter regulations, the feds could deny us future federal funding.

 

Any service operated by RTA, with few exceptions, needs to be open to everyone. Yes, we operate more rail service for a Browns game, because 1). we perceive a need for the extra service to meet the demand, and 2). The extra Rapid service is open to non-Browns fans.

 

I hope this answers your question. Happy holidays.

New Castle Area Transit Authority provides expanded transit service to the Pittsburgh casino and downtown Pittsburgh, which is funded by the Pittsburgh casino. That service is open to everyone, which is the provision which allows public transit to provide it -- as Jerry notes.

 

However, another way of asking the original question here is that:  could RTA provide a similar service to the Cleveland casino and still have it be open for use by anyone? BTW, I *think* anyone can use the existing casino buses operated by Lakefront. Passengers pay to ride and, in return, receive casino chips to use. Whether they want to visit the casino and use them is up to each passenger.

Ken,

 

I am not sure what the benefit would be. The other day, I walked from the door of a Red Line train into the casino's interior door inside Tower City -- and it took me 43 steps. That's abount as convenient as you are going to get. And, the majority of all RTA buses touch Public Square, within a short walk of the casino's front door. There is already loads of service to the casino.

 

That being said -- I do not make those decisions. I will send this along the pipeline and see what happens.

If I can respond to Jerry's answer to my recent post. In reading through the "Charter Rule"  http://publictransport.about.com/od/Glossary/a/The-Charter-Rule.htm  which is the federal regulation that prohibits public transit agency's from offering charter service there seems to be some wiggle room that would allow RTA to further explore the possibility of providing this service. My argument would be that private charter's such as LakeFront Lines do not serve the urban core or the inner ring suburbs. Their focus seems to be more on the outlying suburbs and rural areas.  Also my thinking was mostly about rail. According to the charter rule RTA would have to give notice to private operators their intent on providing charter service. I could  see local bus companies protest that plan but RTA has no competition when it come to rail. You could argue that you gave notice of your intent on using rail for charter, but you have a unique product that no one else can offer.

 

Also regarding your example of special bus service for sporting events. It seems some transit agencies have gotten around that by arguing that private carriers cannot offer the same ADA compliment vehicles that public transportation can provide. An example of this is in Seattle where bus charter service was discontinued but started again after some rule changes. Read about the Seattle example in the link posted above. It's at the bottom of the page.

Ken,

 

I am not sure what the benefit would be. The other day, I walked from the door of a Red Line train into the casino's interior door inside Tower City -- and it took me 43 steps. That's abount as convenient as you are going to get. And, the majority of all RTA buses touch Public Square, within a short walk of the casino's front door. There is already loads of service to the casino.

 

That being said -- I do not make those decisions. I will send this along the pipeline and see what happens.

 

You do not need to send it along the line. It was just a response to show what other transit agencies are doing. There's also New Jersey Transit's ACES train from New York City to Atlantic City. And there are others, but New Castle's is the the most relevant and proximate example.

 

Frankly, there are suburbanites who are scared to death to get on a regular transit bus or train because, sadly, they don't want to mix with "those" people. I guess not everyone can tolerate living and traveling among people different than themselves. The casino wants to accommodate the outer suburbanites. So the casino buses to places like Amherst, Avon, Brunswick, Mentor, Twinsburg, etc. serve a need other than just providing transportation. They also provide a sense of exclusivity.

If and when they get to that point, could be a great cross-marketing opportunity for Dan Gilbert's Horseshoe and RTA.  A Horseshoe-provided RTA shuttle from the exburbs would also help them with parking issues.

As the resident evil suburbanite, my issue with taking public trans to the casino has nothing to do with not wanting to mix with "those types" of people but in the time involved to take public transit to and from the casino when I would want to go.

 

Where I live, after rush hour stops, there is one bus an hour. It takes at least 45 minutes to get downtown on it, stopping every 15 feet or so to pick up or drop off people. Assuming I am able to get my babysitter to come a half hour before I want to take the bus, then I have to walk out of my apartment complex and to the street in the cold (6 degrees this morning!) with my husband and wait for it to come, allowing 10 minutes of walking time, so dressing up and looking nice and wearing nice shoes is out a lot of the months, and I will probably have to bring un umbrella when it's not winter. Then we ride for 45 minutes and finally get downtown. So we're already almost an hour and a half into paying for the sitter and we just got there. And if the sitter was running late and we missed the bus, we'd have to do somethign else for the evening or else wait another hour for the next bus. Or drive to a rapid station, the benefit of which would be WHAT exactly since I already am in the car and have a paid parking space downtown. And walk up a bunch of stairs and wait on a cold railway platform for the train, which is all told going to take an hour at least what with driving there, waiting and riding.  THEN I get to the casino and start gambling. I would have to time our departure just right to ensure we get the one bus per hour going home, and then take another hour for the commute home, what with getting out there in time to wait for it travel time. I've paid the sitter now for two full hours-plus just of commute time, and have no way to get home or to a hospital where my kid might be in case of an accident quickly if there is an emergency except for an expensive cab. I mean, I would take the shuttle if it were quicker, and take a cab to an emergency destination if need be, but honestly, with my kid at home with the sitter, I want control of when I can come and go. I can't sit and wait for a bus and then take twice as long for it to get me to where I want to go, with the meter running at home at $10 an hour. If a bus came every 8 minutes, sure, we could take that home if there was no problem.

 

I realize I am not the typical customer for this shuttle since I already work downtown and pay for a parking space there every month, but I am a regular casino patron, and a lot of women I know go to the casino as well and many are moms. Really, the only appeal of a shuttle to me is that one of us doesn't have to severely curtail any drinking as one of us will be driving home. Just thought I'd weigh in.

As the resident evil suburbanite, my issue with taking public trans to the casino has nothing to do with not wanting to mix with "those types" of people but in the time involved to take public transit to and from the casino when I would want to go.

 

Where I live, after rush hour stops, there is one bus an hour. It takes at least 45 minutes to get downtown on it, stopping every 15 feet or so to pick up or drop off people. Assuming I am able to get my babysitter to come a half hour before I want to take the bus, then I have to walk out of my apartment complex and to the street in the cold (6 degrees this morning!) with my husband and wait for it to come, allowing 10 minutes of walking time, so dressing up and looking nice and wearing nice shoes is out a lot of the months, and I will probably have to bring un umbrella when it's not winter. Then we ride for 45 minutes and finally get downtown. So we're already almost an hour and a half into paying for the sitter and we just got there. And if the sitter was running late and we missed the bus, we'd have to do somethign else for the evening or else wait another hour for the next bus. Or drive to a rapid station, the benefit of which would be WHAT exactly since I already am in the car and have a paid parking space downtown. And walk up a bunch of stairs and wait on a cold railway platform for the train, which is all told going to take an hour at least what with driving there, waiting and riding.  THEN I get to the casino and start gambling. I would have to time our departure just right to ensure we get the one bus per hour going home, and then take another hour for the commute home, what with getting out there in time to wait for it travel time. I've paid the sitter now for two full hours-plus just of commute time, and have no way to get home or to a hospital where my kid might be in case of an accident quickly if there is an emergency except for an expensive cab. I mean, I would take the shuttle if it were quicker, and take a cab to an emergency destination if need be, but honestly, with my kid at home with the sitter, I want control of when I can come and go. I can't sit and wait for a bus and then take twice as long for it to get me to where I want to go, with the meter running at home at $10 an hour. If a bus came every 8 minutes, sure, we could take that home if there was no problem.

 

I realize I am not the typical customer for this shuttle since I already work downtown and pay for a parking space there every month, but I am a regular casino patron, and a lot of women I know go to the casino as well and many are moms. Really, the only appeal of a shuttle to me is that one of us doesn't have to severely curtail any drinking as one of us will be driving home. Just thought I'd weigh in.

 

I agree that with your situation, location from transit, travel time, prepaid parking space, kids, etc., public transportation isn't the best for you. Currently its terrible for me as well unfortunately but hopefully that changes soon.

 

The hourly stops definitely makes its tough to start. 15 minute intervals could possibly change your situation but still. Public transportation is good when it makes things easier, and saves you money. Even if it takes a little longer(not too much longer) it still can beneficial.

 

In your case though it makes things harder, costs you more money, and makes the trip way longer.

R&R, I agree it would be masochistic for someone in your position to take the bus to the casino off peak.  I also note that during evenings and weekends, there's no shortage of parking spaces downtown.

 

Personally, I think increased service to the casino should be very low on RTA's priority list. Tower City is already the best served location in the entire state.  Unless it brings in a significant operating profit, providing some kind of "premium" service to gamblers just seems like unnecessary mission creep/empire building to me.

Ken,

 

I am not sure what the benefit would be. The other day, I walked from the door of a Red Line train into the casino's interior door inside Tower City -- and it took me 43 steps. That's abount as convenient as you are going to get. And, the majority of all RTA buses touch Public Square, within a short walk of the casino's front door. There is already loads of service to the casino.

 

That being said -- I do not make those decisions. I will send this along the pipeline and see what happens.

 

You do not need to send it along the line. It was just a response to show what other transit agencies are doing. There was New Jersey Transit's ACES train from New York City to Atlantic City. And there are others, but New Castle's is the the most relevant and proximate example.

 

Frankly, there are suburbanites who are scared to death to get on a regular transit bus or train because, sadly, they don't want to mix with "those" people. I guess not everyone can tolerate living and traveling among people different than themselves. The casino wants to accommodate the outer suburbanites. So the casino buses to places like Amherst, Avon, Brunswick, Mentor, Twinsburg, etc. serve a need other than just providing transportation. They also provide a sense of exclusivity.

 

Correction, The ACES train was a complete clusterfuck so I wouldn't use that as a source.  I used it 3 times, nice cars but to slow and that turn thing in Philly was painful.  Bad schedule, slow service.  It took longer to get to AC on the train than it did via the bus.

 

However, you're correct about the target audience.  This train was was for customers who don't want the "cattle car" buses.  However, the only people on the trains are drunks.  The casinos spent 20 million dollars on the rolling stock and the service was suspended 3/4 time before being canceled.  I remember the service being canceled because my grand parents were going to take a day trip to AC on one of their stay-cation visits to NYC.

 

It was executed poorly, had bad schedules and took longer than the bus to get to AC and once there you still had to connect to another form of transportation to get to your hotel/casino final destination.

If and when they get to that point, could be a great cross-marketing opportunity for Dan Gilbert's Horseshoe and RTA.  A Horseshoe-provided RTA shuttle from the exburbs would also help them with parking issues.

 

They Horseshoe and RTA could market the casino and public transportation like AMTRAK and United do to use AirTrain to Newark.

'Lucky seven' casinos include Cleveland's Horseshoe

 

The Horseshoe Casino Cleveland is singled out for praise in this USA Today story about a revival in the casino business.

 

“Despite the sluggish economic recovery, it seems the American casino is back in a big way,” the newspaper reports. “Nationwide commercial gambling revenues are on track to surpass the $35.6 billion notched in 2011, which was up slightly from $34.6 billion in 2010, according to David Schwartz, director of the Center for Gaming Research at the University of Nevada at Las Vegas.”

 

The newspaper then identifies the “lucky seven” casinos that are “bold, eccentric and unpredictable,” offering surprises to their visitors. The Cleveland casino makes the cut for its standout architectural features.

 

“Smack in the middle of the Public Square neighborhood in downtown Cleveland, the Horseshoe's claim to fame is the building in which it occupies,” USA Today says. “The Art Deco Higbee Building dates to 1931, and was the city's first department store. The building (and surrounding Tower City Center complex) was added to the National Register of Historic Places in 1976.”

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130128/BLOGS03/130129800

Higbee's was the city's first department store?? I don't think that's accurate. Certainly the 1931 building wasn't the first, and I don't think Higbee's earlier location was first either.

^ It started in 1860 so it could possibly be the oldest. I need to check the others dates.

 

Edit: I did a quick search and so far none of the bigger names are older.

^ It started in 1860 so it could possibly be the oldest. I need to check the others dates.

 

Edit: I did a quick search and so far none of the bigger names are older.

 

May Co built an addition on Ontario after it purchased and absorbed Hull & Dutton, so they could enter the Cleveland Market.  I have no date for this transaction.

Halle's opened 1902 became a department store in 1906

William & Taylor 1907

Sterling-Linder opened on Euclid Ave. in 1909 (Previously on Superior as a Dry Goods store)

Higbee's open across from Halle's in 1910 (but had been a ready to wear company, Hower & Higbee - not a department store - since the mid 1800s).  We all know when they move to Public Square.  However, maybe they are using the mid 1800s as a date of when the store first opened.

^ It started in 1860 so it could possibly be the oldest. I need to check the others dates.

 

Edit: I did a quick search and so far none of the bigger names are older.

 

May Co built an addition on Ontario after it purchased and absorbed Hull & Dutton, so they could enter the Cleveland Market.  I have no date for this transaction.

Halle's opened 1902 became a department store in 1906

William & Taylor 1907

Sterling-Linder opened on Euclid Ave. in 1909 (Previously on Superior as a Dry Goods store)

Higbee's open across from Halle's in 1910 (but had been a ready to wear company, Hower & Higbee - not a department store - since the mid 1800s).  We all know when they move to Public Square.  However, maybe they are using the mid 1800s as a date of when the store first opened.

 

What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

 

Higbee's started in the 200 block of West Superior, moved to the other side of the street, then to Euclid at East 13th in 1910. Its flagship store then was moved to its final location in the Cleveland Union Terminal complex in 1931.

SOURCE: http://ech.case.edu/cgi/article.pl?id=DDSI

 

Perhaps you are thinking of Hotel Cleveland which was the first of the Van Sweringen's Union Terminal group of buildings to open in 1918? It preceded the demolition of all of the older buildings for the terminal group.

I think for the purposes of the article about the Horseshoe Casino, calling Higbees the oldest department store is close enough

What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

 

Higbee's started in the 200 block of West Superior, moved to the other side of the street, then to Euclid at East 13th in 1910. Its flagship store then was moved to its final location in the Cleveland Union Terminal complex in 1931.

SOURCE: http://ech.case.edu/cgi/article.pl?id=DDSI

 

Perhaps you are thinking of Hotel Cleveland which was the first of the Van Sweringen's Union Terminal group of buildings to open in 1918? It preceded the demolition of all of the older buildings for the terminal group.

 

This picture shows The Higbee Company on public square in 1907

http://www.shorpy.com/node/9820?size=_original#caption

 

I cant seem to find out where this store fits with that history on the site.

What I'm confused with is that both you and the article mentioning it being located in playhouse square before it got lured to Public Square with the terminal tower project. There are pictures though that show Higbees being on the square before that happened. Do you know the history behind that location?

 

Higbee's started in the 200 block of West Superior, moved to the other side of the street, then to Euclid at East 13th in 1910. Its flagship store then was moved to its final location in the Cleveland Union Terminal complex in 1931.

SOURCE: http://ech.case.edu/cgi/article.pl?id=DDSI

 

Perhaps you are thinking of Hotel Cleveland which was the first of the Van Sweringen's Union Terminal group of buildings to open in 1918? It preceded the demolition of all of the older buildings for the terminal group.

 

This picture shows The Higbee Company on public square in 1907

http://www.shorpy.com/node/9820?size=_original#caption

 

I cant seem to find out where this store fits with that history on the site.

 

You know what, I remember from Cleveland History, there was a Higbee dry goods store on PS, pre Union Terminal.  This must be it.

That's a possibility. There's also the possibility that Higbee's was shaped like an L and wrapped around the Forest City Hotel, and thus had its main entrance and address on West Superior.

 

BTW, that's a fantastic picture of Public Square!

That's a possibility. There's also the possibility that Higbee's was shaped like an L and wrapped around the Forest City Hotel, and thus had its main entrance and address on West Superior.

 

BTW, that's a fantastic picture of Public Square!

 

Good point!